I keep an A tuning fork in my fiddle case, handy if there is no fixed pitch instrument to tune to, but so many people in sessions now are tuning to an electronic gadget that doesn't make a sound, they are just looking at a display that tells them whether they are sharp or flat. Is the art of tuning purely by ear going to become a lost art?
I carry a tuning fork, call me old fashioned... mind I dont use it much! I just tune to whoever I am playing with. If I'm playing on my own I dont use an external reference point, as long as I'm in tune with myself.
Besides most modern tuners are unsuitable for fiddles IMO, The fiddle is tuned in perfect fifths, not equal temperament. I only use a fine tuner on the E string.
If playing on my own I would use a tuner to tune the A string only then tune the rest by ear - playing 2 strings together, listening for the beats and eliminating them. This is a perfect fifth. As lonannas says, most tuners will not give you perfects fifths. You could of course use one of the Peterson tuners. However, they're expensive and very difficult to use in a live situation as they're so sensitive.
I am one of the people that uses an electronic tuner in a session, because it's often too loud for me to hear fine tuning real well. Although, I *always* try to check and tweak the tuning by ear if I can.
Tuning forks are cool. But they're not going to help in a particularly boisterous session. (Then again, the fine tuning isn't as important in the particularly boisterous sessions...)
In the event my electronic tuner ever fails, I always have a harmonica or two (or three or four) lurking in my guitar case.
As far as my accordion goes, its motto is the same as Popeye's, "I yam what I yam." No forkin' tuner required!
Once upon a time I was an oboe player with the job of tuning the whole orchestra. The best way I found to hear the tuning fork above other din is to tap one of the 'forks' against my knee, then hold the tuning fork so that the base is against the bony bit of skull just in front of the upper part of my ear. It then reverberates right through my head. These days it's packed away & never used - we also tune to something in the group which is hard to adjust, like an accordian or small pipes or whistle.
I bought a couple of harmonicas about 8 years ago, after an accident involving my finger and a fast moving blade, thinking I would learn to play them. As it was, I learned to play mandolin without using the afflicted finger and never got very far with the harmonica. But I keep them on the mantelpiece and have recently started reaching for one or other of them when I need a reliable pitch to tune to. Not having mastered bending notes, their pitch is fairly constant.
Electronic tuners are the scourge of sessions today. They're not as consistent as people like to think - not the cheap ones, anyway. If everyone tunes to their own tuner, the chances are they'll all end up playing at their own pitch. Then, when they notice it sounds off, they refer back to their tuner, which tells them they're in tune, so they assume it's their ears that are wrong.
Even if the electronics is precisely tuned, a tuner can only be as accurate as its display will allow. Most of the digital displays are very crude and allow a wide margin of error - much wider than a well trained ear, I suspect. The older type, with an analogue meter, is better, as the needle moves in a continuous motion, not in little jumps - but they don't seem to be made anymore (I tried searching for one a while ago, and every time I searched for 'analogue tuner' I got ones with a simulated analogue display).
My theory is, of course, entirely unsubstantiated - possibly even devoid of logic - but I feel better for having said it.
At the acoustic evening I was at this very evening, a young lad, by prior arrangement, borrowed the double bass from another band, and you then had these young persons' embarrassement at having to tune their guitar and mandolin to the double bass ( which couldn't be retuned because it was in tune with the other band ). If they'd electronically tuned first, then they might have been ok.
I'm always reaching for my tuner at one of my regular sessions, because an otherwise fine and fluent fiddler is not always on pitch in his fingering. Strange, because his mandolin is always fine.
I also do agree that many younger people ( not this group I saw ) can't tune without electronics. At least now most sessions, etc., will be more in tune. A noisy bar is not the best place to try to tune up.
On the other hand, people like Martin Simpson never seem to use a tuner, but as a mainly solo artist he has only himself and the audience to please
I keep a tuning fork in my case but usually/always use an electronic tuner although I have noticed lately that I rely on it less than before and trust my ear more than ever before. I'm pleased about this and look forward to the day when my confidence allows me to go with the ear. However the electronic tuner did/does give me a lot of security.
Ragaman the old type analogue tuner is still made - the Boss TU-12. It's not the cheapest meter but it's probably the best until you start paying big bucks for the Petersons. I recently had to replace my old TU-12 after it fell off the top of an amplifier and did not survive. I insist everyone in the band uses the same meter.
As for people playing with meters attached to their fiddles...this is just the same as playing with "training stripes" on the fingerboard isn't it? Don't do it!
It's not only the airports.....
...was invited to play at the Staff Social Club of the American Embassy a couple of years ago.....not only couldn't you take in your mobile phones, or your electronic car keys, they were going to stop me taking in my tuner too, till the guys watching security from a floor up said it was ok. And everything has to go in through the x-ray machine - ever seen a set of pipes on x-ray ? I don't think the guy on the machine had previously.
I have a peterson tuner for the electric fiddle. It is very simple to use, just need to adjust to the technique needed. I haven't used it for my normal fiddle so I cant comment on using for acoustic gigs. But for the Electric, where you cant actually hear anything it is amazingly accurate. Mind for the cost it should be!!! It has been a blessing, worth every penny if just for the lack of stress which was always present before I got it.
I always carry a tuning fork. I don't have problems tuning in noisy sessions. The trick is to strike the fork against a chair or table and then hold it against the fiddle's bridge, at the same time holding your ear to the D- or G-peg as you pluck a string. Even in noisy surroundings I find enough sound gets through to my ear to do the job.
I prefer to use a micrometer tuner for the A (as well as the E, obviously) because with other than gut core or gut strings the string tension is sufficiently high (synthetic or steel core) as to make peg tuning of the A a bit tricky at times. I've never found micrometer tuners particularly useful for the G and D, so I don't use them.
If there's box in the session I tune to that. If the box is wet-tuned I make my best guess at where A440 is and hope for the best. But if there is one or more wet-tuned instrument in the session it's going to sound pretty damp whatever you do, so I settle for A440 from my tuning fork on the theory that there's bound to be a reed A somewhere that is also A440!
I'm surprised at you there Trev. I would have thought that you, of all people, you should know never to hit your tuning fork against something hard. You'll knock it out of tune.
And I'm surprised at SWFL Fiddler's comment near the top. The "joke" was to tune to the worst person at tuning.
But that is precisely what you should be doing. Select the ensemble member who is least able to tune, for what ever reason, and everyone tune to them. It could be a box, or a non-tuneable whistle, or even just someone who's not very good at tuning.
My strumming pal is pretty good at tuning early on, but after an hour/pint or three, it can go awry. If I get the chance, I'll tune his guitar for him when he's out for a smoke without him knowing. But what often happens is the rest of us simply adjust to where he's drifted too.
It would be better to tune using a fork, rather than to a fixed pitch instument such as an accordian, as the note from the tuning fork (inlike the accodian) is pure - that is, free of overtones.
Electronic tuners? I disdained the things for years, but succombed just recently. Clip-on type, with analogue meter. I checked it against various sources, and it appears to be fairly accurate.
Very handy in a noisy pub, where other tuning methods might prove difficult. So I'm a convert. OK, the battery might fail unexpectedly, but there is always the option of borrowing someone else's tuner. They've all got 'em!
But supposing there was no-one else?. Well, if you were playing alone, it wouldn't really matter, would it? A 439.5, or anything that takes your fancy.
Yes indeed, Llig is right. Technically speaking it was only a half-joke. Perhaps I meant that the comedy was in the delivery, not in the actual method.
Again we're back to ye olde chesnut: "Use yer ears!"
Further to the above, I still believe in "tweaking" even after I've tuned as the pitch can vary slightly depending on how hard you pluck or strike the strings and you can get a slightly different pitch when you bow the fiddle as opposed to just plucking its strings.
"the old type analogue tuner is still made - the Boss TU-12"
That's good toknow - thanks, SteelPlayer. Perhaps I ought to think about forking out for one of them. Then again, I've always managed fine up to now tuning to another instrument, so why change the habit of a lifetime.
So, llig, just tell us how you get the tuning fork to sound WITHOUT hitting it against something hard ?
Personally, I always used to strike mine against my patella - hard, but not too hard.
The Copper family used to tell how an ancestor carried one in his pocket, and struck it against the heel of his boot as they walked to church, giving them a note to sing from as they walked along.
llig, perhaps my choice of verb - "strike" - was misleading. It's much more like a lightish tap and always against a wooden surface, never against metal or stone. I've been doing it like that for more years than I care to remember, and the tuning fork still works fine - still at the correct pitch, nothing's cracked or corroded, and so far I've never had to replace batteries.
I was talking to a concertina player at the session this evening (3rd March) and asked him about his tuning. He's got three reeds and reckons they're tuned to 439, 441 and 442. So my 440 added to that little lot will give a sopping wet sound
Yeah I can tune to a fork, and carry one
too. But I don't impose it as a requirement.
My fiddle stays in tune well and others
that use tuners wind up in tune with me.
I don't use an electronic tuner at our
regular sessions but I might at a special
occasion or gig.
I notice some deficiencies with the
electronic tuner used by my guitar player
one string turns out to be sharp every time.
So my non electronic tuned fiddle ear has
to tell guitar player to adjust his electronic
tuned low E string down every time.
I use 14s 24w 32w 48w on my Octave Mandola and have a clip-on Chromatic Intelli IMT-500 tuner. The 48W don't register at times and I may have to turn the tuner off and on when tuning the 48W. Replacing the battery made no difference, anyone know why? I don't have option of not using the electronic tuner - High tone deafness.
For Forks Sake!
For Forks Sake!
For Forks Sake!
http://www.onlinetuningfork.com/
A handy little gadget don't you think, especially if the battery in your electronic tuner fails you.
Does anyone here actually still tune up, using a tuning fork, or does everyone swear by electronics now?
How many people actually carry a tuning fork in their case ...... just in case?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: For Forks Sake!
How many people take a laptop to a session? Probably more than I think.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: For Forks Sake!
I keep an A tuning fork in my fiddle case, handy if there is no fixed pitch instrument to tune to, but so many people in sessions now are tuning to an electronic gadget that doesn't make a sound, they are just looking at a display that tells them whether they are sharp or flat. Is the art of tuning purely by ear going to become a lost art?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by cathycook
Re: For Forks Sake!
We always tune to the worst A possible, either to the box that needs new reeds or the fluter who always blows his A flat.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: For Forks Sake!
That was comedy, by the way.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: For Forks Sake!
I carry a tuning fork, call me old fashioned... mind I dont use it much! I just tune to whoever I am playing with. If I'm playing on my own I dont use an external reference point, as long as I'm in tune with myself.
Besides most modern tuners are unsuitable for fiddles IMO, The fiddle is tuned in perfect fifths, not equal temperament. I only use a fine tuner on the E string.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: For Forks Sake!
If playing on my own I would use a tuner to tune the A string only then tune the rest by ear - playing 2 strings together, listening for the beats and eliminating them. This is a perfect fifth. As lonannas says, most tuners will not give you perfects fifths. You could of course use one of the Peterson tuners. However, they're expensive and very difficult to use in a live situation as they're so sensitive.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: For Forks Sake!
I am one of the people that uses an electronic tuner in a session, because it's often too loud for me to hear fine tuning real well. Although, I *always* try to check and tweak the tuning by ear if I can.
Tuning forks are cool. But they're not going to help in a particularly boisterous session. (Then again, the fine tuning isn't as important in the particularly boisterous sessions...)
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Reverend
Re: For Forks Sake!
In the event my electronic tuner ever fails, I always have a harmonica or two (or three or four) lurking in my guitar case.
As far as my accordion goes, its motto is the same as Popeye's, "I yam what I yam." No forkin' tuner required!
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: For Forks Sake!
Once upon a time I was an oboe player with the job of tuning the whole orchestra. The best way I found to hear the tuning fork above other din is to tap one of the 'forks' against my knee, then hold the tuning fork so that the base is against the bony bit of skull just in front of the upper part of my ear. It then reverberates right through my head. These days it's packed away & never used - we also tune to something in the group which is hard to adjust, like an accordian or small pipes or whistle.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Bredna
Re: For Forks Sake!
I bought a couple of harmonicas about 8 years ago, after an accident involving my finger and a fast moving blade, thinking I would learn to play them. As it was, I learned to play mandolin without using the afflicted finger and never got very far with the harmonica. But I keep them on the mantelpiece and have recently started reaching for one or other of them when I need a reliable pitch to tune to. Not having mastered bending notes, their pitch is fairly constant.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: For Forks Sake!
Electronic tuners are the scourge of sessions today. They're not as consistent as people like to think - not the cheap ones, anyway. If everyone tunes to their own tuner, the chances are they'll all end up playing at their own pitch. Then, when they notice it sounds off, they refer back to their tuner, which tells them they're in tune, so they assume it's their ears that are wrong.
Even if the electronics is precisely tuned, a tuner can only be as accurate as its display will allow. Most of the digital displays are very crude and allow a wide margin of error - much wider than a well trained ear, I suspect. The older type, with an analogue meter, is better, as the needle moves in a continuous motion, not in little jumps - but they don't seem to be made anymore (I tried searching for one a while ago, and every time I searched for 'analogue tuner' I got ones with a simulated analogue display).
My theory is, of course, entirely unsubstantiated - possibly even devoid of logic - but I feel better for having said it.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: For Forks Sake!
At the acoustic evening I was at this very evening, a young lad, by prior arrangement, borrowed the double bass from another band, and you then had these young persons' embarrassement at having to tune their guitar and mandolin to the double bass ( which couldn't be retuned because it was in tune with the other band ). If they'd electronically tuned first, then they might have been ok.
I'm always reaching for my tuner at one of my regular sessions, because an otherwise fine and fluent fiddler is not always on pitch in his fingering. Strange, because his mandolin is always fine.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: For Forks Sake!
I also do agree that many younger people ( not this group I saw ) can't tune without electronics. At least now most sessions, etc., will be more in tune. A noisy bar is not the best place to try to tune up.
On the other hand, people like Martin Simpson never seem to use a tuner, but as a mainly solo artist he has only himself and the audience to please
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: For Forks Sake!
I keep a tuning fork in my case but usually/always use an electronic tuner although I have noticed lately that I rely on it less than before and trust my ear more than ever before. I'm pleased about this and look forward to the day when my confidence allows me to go with the ear. However the electronic tuner did/does give me a lot of security.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by wodeninjun
Re: For Forks Sake!
The main thing about a fork is to be sure that its pitch doesn't ramble...
- chris
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: For Forks Sake!
Ragaman the old type analogue tuner is still made - the Boss TU-12. It's not the cheapest meter but it's probably the best until you start paying big bucks for the Petersons. I recently had to replace my old TU-12 after it fell off the top of an amplifier and did not survive. I insist everyone in the band uses the same meter.
As for people playing with meters attached to their fiddles...this is just the same as playing with "training stripes" on the fingerboard isn't it? Don't do it!
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: For Forks Sake!
Always had a tuning fork in the case until those Airport Security Regulations came in...
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Jerry O'Donnell
Re: For Forks Sake!
It's not only the airports.....
...was invited to play at the Staff Social Club of the American Embassy a couple of years ago.....not only couldn't you take in your mobile phones, or your electronic car keys, they were going to stop me taking in my tuner too, till the guys watching security from a floor up said it was ok. And everything has to go in through the x-ray machine - ever seen a set of pipes on x-ray ? I don't think the guy on the machine had previously.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: For Forks Sake!
I have a peterson tuner for the electric fiddle. It is very simple to use, just need to adjust to the technique needed. I haven't used it for my normal fiddle so I cant comment on using for acoustic gigs. But for the Electric, where you cant actually hear anything it is amazingly accurate. Mind for the cost it should be!!! It has been a blessing, worth every penny if just for the lack of stress which was always present before I got it.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: For Forks Sake!
I always carry a tuning fork. I don't have problems tuning in noisy sessions. The trick is to strike the fork against a chair or table and then hold it against the fiddle's bridge, at the same time holding your ear to the D- or G-peg as you pluck a string. Even in noisy surroundings I find enough sound gets through to my ear to do the job.
I prefer to use a micrometer tuner for the A (as well as the E, obviously) because with other than gut core or gut strings the string tension is sufficiently high (synthetic or steel core) as to make peg tuning of the A a bit tricky at times. I've never found micrometer tuners particularly useful for the G and D, so I don't use them.
If there's box in the session I tune to that. If the box is wet-tuned I make my best guess at where A440 is and hope for the best. But if there is one or more wet-tuned instrument in the session it's going to sound pretty damp whatever you do, so I settle for A440 from my tuning fork on the theory that there's bound to be a reed A somewhere that is also A440!
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: For Forks Sake!
I'm surprised at you there Trev. I would have thought that you, of all people, you should know never to hit your tuning fork against something hard. You'll knock it out of tune.
And I'm surprised at SWFL Fiddler's comment near the top. The "joke" was to tune to the worst person at tuning.
But that is precisely what you should be doing. Select the ensemble member who is least able to tune, for what ever reason, and everyone tune to them. It could be a box, or a non-tuneable whistle, or even just someone who's not very good at tuning.
My strumming pal is pretty good at tuning early on, but after an hour/pint or three, it can go awry. If I get the chance, I'll tune his guitar for him when he's out for a smoke without him knowing. But what often happens is the rest of us simply adjust to where he's drifted too.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: For Forks Sake!
It would be better to tune using a fork, rather than to a fixed pitch instument such as an accordian, as the note from the tuning fork (inlike the accodian) is pure - that is, free of overtones.
Electronic tuners? I disdained the things for years, but succombed just recently. Clip-on type, with analogue meter. I checked it against various sources, and it appears to be fairly accurate.
Very handy in a noisy pub, where other tuning methods might prove difficult. So I'm a convert. OK, the battery might fail unexpectedly, but there is always the option of borrowing someone else's tuner. They've all got 'em!
But supposing there was no-one else?. Well, if you were playing alone, it wouldn't really matter, would it? A 439.5, or anything that takes your fancy.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: For Forks Sake!
Yes indeed, Llig is right. Technically speaking it was only a half-joke. Perhaps I meant that the comedy was in the delivery, not in the actual method.
Again we're back to ye olde chesnut: "Use yer ears!"
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: For Forks Sake!
Whatever happened to pitch pipes? I haven't seen anyone use them in years.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: For Forks Sake!
Well, I've checked both my electronic tuners with my tuning fork and they both show a "correct A"... ie if the tuning fork is correct!
So there.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by John J.
Re: For Forks Sake!
Further to the above, I still believe in "tweaking" even after I've tuned as the pitch can vary slightly depending on how hard you pluck or strike the strings and you can get a slightly different pitch when you bow the fiddle as opposed to just plucking its strings.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by John J.
Re: For Forks Sake!
An interesting thread to be started by a hammered dulcimer player
Do you use a tuning fork for that Dick??
Chuck Boody
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by cboody
Re: For Forks Sake!
Pitch pipes, Floss? I still have a set of those, though I haven't used them in years. Just can't bring myself to throw them away ...
... although probably the best thing to do with them would be to "pitch" them into the bin ...
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: For Forks Sake!
"the old type analogue tuner is still made - the Boss TU-12"
That's good toknow - thanks, SteelPlayer. Perhaps I ought to think about forking out for one of them. Then again, I've always managed fine up to now tuning to another instrument, so why change the habit of a lifetime.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: For Forks Sake!
So, llig, just tell us how you get the tuning fork to sound WITHOUT hitting it against something hard ?
Personally, I always used to strike mine against my patella - hard, but not too hard.
The Copper family used to tell how an ancestor carried one in his pocket, and struck it against the heel of his boot as they walked to church, giving them a note to sing from as they walked along.
# Posted on March 4th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: For Forks Sake!
I strike it on a hard edge and bite on it so the sound is transmitted through the teeth and skull.
# Posted on March 4th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: For Forks Sake!
llig, perhaps my choice of verb - "strike" - was misleading. It's much more like a lightish tap and always against a wooden surface, never against metal or stone. I've been doing it like that for more years than I care to remember, and the tuning fork still works fine - still at the correct pitch, nothing's cracked or corroded, and so far I've never had to replace batteries.
I was talking to a concertina player at the session this evening (3rd March) and asked him about his tuning. He's got three reeds and reckons they're tuned to 439, 441 and 442. So my 440 added to that little lot will give a sopping wet sound
# Posted on March 4th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: For Forks Sake!
Yeah I can tune to a fork, and carry one
too. But I don't impose it as a requirement.
My fiddle stays in tune well and others
that use tuners wind up in tune with me.
I don't use an electronic tuner at our
regular sessions but I might at a special
occasion or gig.
I notice some deficiencies with the
electronic tuner used by my guitar player
one string turns out to be sharp every time.
So my non electronic tuned fiddle ear has
to tell guitar player to adjust his electronic
tuned low E string down every time.
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by dogmageek
Re: For Forks Sake!
I use 14s 24w 32w 48w on my Octave Mandola and have a clip-on Chromatic Intelli IMT-500 tuner. The 48W don't register at times and I may have to turn the tuner off and on when tuning the 48W. Replacing the battery made no difference, anyone know why? I don't have option of not using the electronic tuner - High tone deafness.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by O'Riabhaigh