The basic point about vibrato, so often forgotten, and this goes right back to the Baroque period (approx 1600 - 1850), is that it is an ornament, and should always be treated as such.
The second point is that when a player has attained a certain level of relaxation and competence vibrato is only too easy to do and can become automatic. This applies especially to variable pitch instruments (fiddle, whistle, flute and voice in Irish music), and partly explains why it is so prevalent in classical music and non-Irish music today. Although, to be fair, the professional and better amateur orchestras and choirs control it if they have a conductor who is on the ball and thinking about the music.
Another point is that vibrato can be mis-used to cover up poor intonation. This has been a regular complaint going right back to the 18th century.
Vibrato, if it's going to be used with due regard to whatever music is being played, should be under control at all times, including on/off, amplitude, frequency, and detail such as whether the vibrato is above, below or either side of the main note. And if you're a fiddler do you do vibrato using the just the hand or the fore-arm or a combination of the two (see the Todd Ehle videos on YouTube for more discussion on this)? For instance, It wouln't be sensible to attempt to use vibrato on 1/8 notes in a reel or jig at a typical session or dance tempo because the frequency of the vibrato (6-8 Hz perhaps) would be too close to the speed of the notes, but you might wish to use it on the final sustained note if you're playing in a ceili. Talking of ceilis, an occasion where a wide schmaltzy vibrato is appropriate, or even desirable 'cos the punters like it, would be a slow waltz during an interlude between the set dances and barn dances.
Why does vibrato exist? Used well it can be very expressive, and it does indeed enrich the tone by generating extra harmonics. This is also why it is so easy to overdo.
What about airs playing? Is it totally a recent introduction (say, last 50-75 years)?
Not having grown up in Ireland, I had access only to what recordings reached North Amerikay in my youth, thus I do not know first-hand what was happening in the "real" world (dances, sessions, etc.), just what I was lucky enough to find.
I used to be very puristic about this and didn't use vibrato at all despite the fact that it had taken me a long time to learn it. Later I found that it improves the sound of the fiddle quite a lot. So I use it in tunes like waltzes.
And Denis Murphy--just a hint of it, in the airs on 'Star Above the Garter."
But yes, some violinists do sound odd (to put it nicely) when they try to play traditional tunes with heavy vibrato. It's a dead giveaway that they are not fiddlers.
It is my impression that more Scot fiddlers than Irish use vibrato from time to time, most notably in slower pieces and airs. Is that true, or am I mistaken?
I don't know Ali. Probably on the whole yes, but it's doubtless a very complex answer that is required really.
I'm always amazed (and disappointed) by how struck people are by vibrato. To those who don't really know about this (talked about here) kind of music, a bit of vibrato is a clear indication of a good player. Sometimes I wish I'd learnt it - rather than cobbled it - but then it does seem to be a peculiar 'taste' and I'm happy enough without it for what I play.
well, vibrato is a huge part of the piping tradition, so clearly it exists in the music. i tend to do finger vibrato on the flute. i do vibrato on the concertina, because that's what noel hill does and i learn from him. i am mixed on the fiddle... i like it when it is done tastefully.
here's a question... has anyone tried to mimic piper's vibrato on the fiddle? i dont know how you'd try and get the same effect... maybe instead of wiggling your finger around, hit a finger next to it, or change pressure with the bow? i am sure i am ignorant, but i wonder if there is a way to contrive something that "sounds more irish."
and as for why vibrato even exists--it adds something to pay attention to. in general, we habituate (that is get used to or ignore) things very easily. so, when things change we pay attention more. when you have vibrato, it is easier to pay attention, because the sound is constantly changing. think about pipes... even when not doing vibrato, the buzzing of the reeds/regs is a varying sound, and has something to pay attention to.
The piper's vibrato is very fast and wide. Gerry 'fiddle' O'Connor does
a vibrato that sound pipelike on slow airs. But it is just a fast vibrato,
not a wide one - it's sort of a shimmering vibrato.
Jascha Heifetz, Fritz Kreisler and others from that era
had a heavy duty vibrato at times that was
pipelike; I haven't heard any trad fiddlers doing that - it would sound
pretty weird - not very trad-like.
What a strange discussion! It seems to have come out of nowhere and ended nowhere... but taken in some 'high horses' on the way. How can any of us suggest that any style of playing traditional music is 'right' or 'wrong'? By all means discuss how well or how badly someone might be playing, but to baldly condemn any particular technique is just arrogance. What I listen out for is 'good music' - as simple as that - and that can be achieved in any number of ways.
Take the word Traditional out of the equation and you can use as much vibrato as you like. I do not think that it is arrogance to make such a statement.
FWIW I had this discussion with my teacher as I come from the classical world. He has challenged me, especially on slow airs, to use NO vibrato just to make sure I was using all the other ornaments instead of "falling back" on the vibrato. Then he let me use vibrato on just ONE note in the A section and ONE note in the B section, etc.
We went to a house concert with Kevin Burke and he pointed out that even KB uses an arm vibrato on occassion...and from my memory it wasn't just on the slow tunes but on the occassional jig too. But it IS used as an ornament, not a constant movement going on.
My teacher even pointed out that some fiddlers who claim they would never use vibrato actually DO use it sometimes on certain tunes, even if they are not conscious of it. The point is, that you use it with intention as an emphasis, not all the time like in classical playing.
I'd still like kk fiddler to back up his (her?) very rigid view that there is no vibrato in traditional music. Where's the knowledge base for that? And how far back does that knowledge go?
Like all things, best used in moderation. Used well, it can definitely enrich a slow air/waltz, (Aly Bain for example) but it doesn't have so much use in faster tunes I don't think.
1) when referring to Traditional irish Fiddle playing, I do not include waltzes. Traditionally, Vibrato is not used in Slow Airs.
2) I am not talking about Scottish or English Music but specifically Traditional Irish Fiddle playing
3) I am not going to explain my background in music
Maybe you should all do your own research.The only sensible comment was posted by thejigisup . It is the relatively recent emergeance of classical players crossing over to Traditional
Irish fiddle playing which has brought about the use of vibrato. It is not TRADITIONAL which is what I said in the first place.
A little vibrato goes along way. Too much and every thing sound schmultzy.
When I was learning church organ, was told to never ever use it. I play box and my personal taste is such that very few tunes need vibrato. Used sparingly and appropriately it is effective. Used too much it gets like hot fudge....overwhelming in large quantities.
kk, the issue is that there are so many old recordings with fiddlers with vibrato that you can't possibly be too informed on this subject. Here's some:
My old fiddle teacher played the most beautiful airs, and he used a little vibrato here and there, but a very slow, gentle warbling. He used to say that a rapid or twitchy vibrato suggests tension, which would be the opposite of the feeling you would want to create with an air. There were some tunes that he preferred no vibrato at all, though---that the sound of the tune was more plaintive and haunting without it. And it is true that you can get an awful lot of feeling out of a simple good tone and lingering over the long notes. So I guess it all comes down to the feeling of the tune and the choices the player makes to reflect that feeling.
I know this is for the original thread but . . . I did watch (listened to?) the James Galway vibrato instruction; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yCw9xm0E4
What I liked was his playing good solid notes when he spoke of the *attack* & playing directly into the flute. I am not a fan of his playing. Having said that I intend to listen to him playing to hear what he does when he is not using vibrato.
Reenactor, re "Baroque period (approx 1600 - 1850)"
Just testing - everybody knows that it's 1600-1750!
Well, actually, I was in Belgium for a week or so and was using a MS natural style keyboard with a continental AZERTY key layout. This, in combination with a really tiny monitor, resulted in a lot more typos than I usually generate.
Maguire I meant .You can't make any hard and fast rules in Trad or any
other art form.
It's more like modern physics where you have range of the possible with
a centre of the probable.
Someday some genius in Ireland will make the bassoon an official Trad
instrument - it's happened with bouzouki and banjo and the Italian-style
fiddle and concert pitch pipes with regulators
Vibrato
Vibrato
The basic point about vibrato, so often forgotten, and this goes right back to the Baroque period (approx 1600 - 1850), is that it is an ornament, and should always be treated as such.
The second point is that when a player has attained a certain level of relaxation and competence vibrato is only too easy to do and can become automatic. This applies especially to variable pitch instruments (fiddle, whistle, flute and voice in Irish music), and partly explains why it is so prevalent in classical music and non-Irish music today. Although, to be fair, the professional and better amateur orchestras and choirs control it if they have a conductor who is on the ball and thinking about the music.
Another point is that vibrato can be mis-used to cover up poor intonation. This has been a regular complaint going right back to the 18th century.
Vibrato, if it's going to be used with due regard to whatever music is being played, should be under control at all times, including on/off, amplitude, frequency, and detail such as whether the vibrato is above, below or either side of the main note. And if you're a fiddler do you do vibrato using the just the hand or the fore-arm or a combination of the two (see the Todd Ehle videos on YouTube for more discussion on this)? For instance, It wouln't be sensible to attempt to use vibrato on 1/8 notes in a reel or jig at a typical session or dance tempo because the frequency of the vibrato (6-8 Hz perhaps) would be too close to the speed of the notes, but you might wish to use it on the final sustained note if you're playing in a ceili. Talking of ceilis, an occasion where a wide schmaltzy vibrato is appropriate, or even desirable 'cos the punters like it, would be a slow waltz during an interlude between the set dances and barn dances.
Why does vibrato exist? Used well it can be very expressive, and it does indeed enrich the tone by generating extra harmonics. This is also why it is so easy to overdo.
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Vibrato
Discussion?
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Vibrato
Vibrato has no place in Traditional Irish fiddle playing
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by kk fiddler
Re: Vibrato
kk:
What about airs playing? Is it totally a recent introduction (say, last 50-75 years)?
Not having grown up in Ireland, I had access only to what recordings reached North Amerikay in my youth, thus I do not know first-hand what was happening in the "real" world (dances, sessions, etc.), just what I was lucky enough to find.
Curiously,
rook
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by Piece
Re: Vibrato
I used to be very puristic about this and didn't use vibrato at all despite the fact that it had taken me a long time to learn it. Later I found that it improves the sound of the fiddle quite a lot. So I use it in tunes like waltzes.
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by kuec
Re: Vibrato
"Vibrato has no place in Traditional Irish fiddle playing" - well, maybe not quite 'no' place? Andy McGann?
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by pavlf
Re: Vibrato
Another example: the very first note of "Paddy in the Smoke" (Martin Byrnes).
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by John Galt
Re: Vibrato
And Denis Murphy--just a hint of it, in the airs on 'Star Above the Garter."
But yes, some violinists do sound odd (to put it nicely) when they try to play traditional tunes with heavy vibrato. It's a dead giveaway that they are not fiddlers.
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by John Galt
Re: Vibrato
Lazyhound, you'll probably want to trim off your last hundred years of Baroque era.
kk: There must be a remarkable number of fiddlers you don't listen to.
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by reenactor
Re: Vibrato
look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yCw9xm0E4
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Vibrato
It is my impression that more Scot fiddlers than Irish use vibrato from time to time, most notably in slower pieces and airs. Is that true, or am I mistaken?
# Posted on March 1st 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Vibrato
I don't know Ali. Probably on the whole yes, but it's doubtless a very complex answer that is required really.
I'm always amazed (and disappointed) by how struck people are by vibrato. To those who don't really know about this (talked about here) kind of music, a bit of vibrato is a clear indication of a good player. Sometimes I wish I'd learnt it - rather than cobbled it - but then it does seem to be a peculiar 'taste' and I'm happy enough without it for what I play.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by pavlf
Re: Vibrato
"Sir James Galway Masterclass - Vibrtato" ??
dear oh dear of dear oh dear
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Vibrato
well, vibrato is a huge part of the piping tradition, so clearly it exists in the music. i tend to do finger vibrato on the flute. i do vibrato on the concertina, because that's what noel hill does and i learn from him. i am mixed on the fiddle... i like it when it is done tastefully.
here's a question... has anyone tried to mimic piper's vibrato on the fiddle? i dont know how you'd try and get the same effect... maybe instead of wiggling your finger around, hit a finger next to it, or change pressure with the bow? i am sure i am ignorant, but i wonder if there is a way to contrive something that "sounds more irish."
and as for why vibrato even exists--it adds something to pay attention to. in general, we habituate (that is get used to or ignore) things very easily. so, when things change we pay attention more. when you have vibrato, it is easier to pay attention, because the sound is constantly changing. think about pipes... even when not doing vibrato, the buzzing of the reeds/regs is a varying sound, and has something to pay attention to.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by daiv
Re: Vibrato
'"Sir James Galway Masterclass - Vibrtato" ??"'
where did that come from?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by pavlf
Re: Vibrato
The piper's vibrato is very fast and wide. Gerry 'fiddle' O'Connor does
a vibrato that sound pipelike on slow airs. But it is just a fast vibrato,
not a wide one - it's sort of a shimmering vibrato.
Jascha Heifetz, Fritz Kreisler and others from that era
had a heavy duty vibrato at times that was
pipelike; I haven't heard any trad fiddlers doing that - it would sound
pretty weird - not very trad-like.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Hup
Re: Vibrato
reenactor My comment does not give any indication of how many or what type of fiddle players I listen to
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kk fiddler
Re: Vibrato
What a strange discussion! It seems to have come out of nowhere and ended nowhere... but taken in some 'high horses' on the way. How can any of us suggest that any style of playing traditional music is 'right' or 'wrong'? By all means discuss how well or how badly someone might be playing, but to baldly condemn any particular technique is just arrogance. What I listen out for is 'good music' - as simple as that - and that can be achieved in any number of ways.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Hare's Tail
Re: Vibrato
Take the word Traditional out of the equation and you can use as much vibrato as you like. I do not think that it is arrogance to make such a statement.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kk fiddler
Re: Vibrato
How could it even be used by a fiddler on anything but waltzes and airs anyway? I use it only then, sparingly and judiciously.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Vibrato
FWIW I had this discussion with my teacher as I come from the classical world. He has challenged me, especially on slow airs, to use NO vibrato just to make sure I was using all the other ornaments instead of "falling back" on the vibrato. Then he let me use vibrato on just ONE note in the A section and ONE note in the B section, etc.
We went to a house concert with Kevin Burke and he pointed out that even KB uses an arm vibrato on occassion...and from my memory it wasn't just on the slow tunes but on the occassional jig too. But it IS used as an ornament, not a constant movement going on.
My teacher even pointed out that some fiddlers who claim they would never use vibrato actually DO use it sometimes on certain tunes, even if they are not conscious of it. The point is, that you use it with intention as an emphasis, not all the time like in classical playing.
hth
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by thejigisup
Re: Vibrato
I'd still like kk fiddler to back up his (her?) very rigid view that there is no vibrato in traditional music. Where's the knowledge base for that? And how far back does that knowledge go?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Hare's Tail
Re: Vibrato
Like all things, best used in moderation. Used well, it can definitely enrich a slow air/waltz, (Aly Bain for example) but it doesn't have so much use in faster tunes I don't think.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by snowyowl
Re: Vibrato
1) when referring to Traditional irish Fiddle playing, I do not include waltzes. Traditionally, Vibrato is not used in Slow Airs.
2) I am not talking about Scottish or English Music but specifically Traditional Irish Fiddle playing
3) I am not going to explain my background in music
Maybe you should all do your own research.The only sensible comment was posted by thejigisup . It is the relatively recent emergeance of classical players crossing over to Traditional
Irish fiddle playing which has brought about the use of vibrato. It is not TRADITIONAL which is what I said in the first place.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kk fiddler
Re: Vibrato
A little vibrato goes along way. Too much and every thing sound schmultzy.
When I was learning church organ, was told to never ever use it. I play box and my personal taste is such that very few tunes need vibrato. Used sparingly and appropriately it is effective. Used too much it gets like hot fudge....overwhelming in large quantities.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Vibrato
kk, the issue is that there are so many old recordings with fiddlers with vibrato that you can't possibly be too informed on this subject. Here's some:
http://www.archive.org/details/SeanMcGuireTheThreeSeaCaptains
This one, for example, has clearly heard vibrato - but oh noes - it's Sean McGuire! We all know he heard too much classical music! How about this one?
http://www.archive.org/details/JamesMorrisonIfWeHadntAnyWomenintheWorldTheBerrefoyBarndance
James Morrison? Noooooo! Maybe it's just the cylinder shaking. Only on the long notes. There must be a way to prove this argument negatively!
http://www.archive.org/details/JamesMorrison-AdieuToInnisfailThoseEndearingYoungCharms
Oh, never mind. That's just more James Morrison. Well, he must have been an idiot. How about this?
http://www.archive.org/details/MichaelColemanTheBanksBarndances
Michael Coleman! What?!? But it's just the first note, maybe (and a bunch of other ones later).
kk, you can do the rest of the research yourself. Padraig O'Keefe, in particular, had a lovely vibrato.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by reenactor
Re: Vibrato
oh, and kk, have you heard the Denis Murphy and Martin Byrnes mickray listed above? I couldn't find links, but those are lovely examples.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by reenactor
Re: Vibrato
How in the world can you do vibrato on a concertina?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Vibrato
Like this?
"...the vibrato is achieved by very subtle shaking of the end of the concertina "anchored" on the leg..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt8mN9DoWRk
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Vibrato
Shake the bellows. I've seen Noel Hill do it. Listen to him playing "The Mountains of Pomeroy". Not sure that I like it, though.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Kenny
Re: Vibrato
My old fiddle teacher played the most beautiful airs, and he used a little vibrato here and there, but a very slow, gentle warbling. He used to say that a rapid or twitchy vibrato suggests tension, which would be the opposite of the feeling you would want to create with an air. There were some tunes that he preferred no vibrato at all, though---that the sound of the tune was more plaintive and haunting without it. And it is true that you can get an awful lot of feeling out of a simple good tone and lingering over the long notes. So I guess it all comes down to the feeling of the tune and the choices the player makes to reflect that feeling.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Vibrato
I like that kennedy: "...a very slow, gentle warbling..."
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Vibrato
hmm, I guess that's a vibrato, but you couldn't do that over a really long note, could you?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Vibrato
huh?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Vibrato
I know this is for the original thread but . . . I did watch (listened to?) the James Galway vibrato instruction;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0yCw9xm0E4
What I liked was his playing good solid notes when he spoke of the *attack* & playing directly into the flute. I am not a fan of his playing. Having said that I intend to listen to him playing to hear what he does when he is not using vibrato.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Vibrato
Errrrrr ... one more time - Andy McGann? Oh but he was in America, and that's not really a traditional place is it?
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by pavlf
Re: Vibrato
Oh fine! Jeremy suspend the continent.
North America that is.
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
*
then Australia
# Posted on March 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Vibrato
Manus Maquire, Desi Donnelly
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Hup
Re: Vibrato
Reenactor, re "Baroque period (approx 1600 - 1850)"
- everybody knows that it's 1600-1750!
Just testing
Well, actually, I was in Belgium for a week or so and was using a MS natural style keyboard with a continental AZERTY key layout. This, in combination with a really tiny monitor, resulted in a lot more typos than I usually generate.
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Vibrato
Maguire I meant .You can't make any hard and fast rules in Trad or any
other art form.
It's more like modern physics where you have range of the possible with
a centre of the probable.
Someday some genius in Ireland will make the bassoon an official Trad
instrument - it's happened with bouzouki and banjo and the Italian-style
fiddle and concert pitch pipes with regulators
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by Hup
Re: Vibrato
Hup, You can make all the hard and fast rules you want in trad......it's just that no one will listen to you!
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Vibrato
That's whats wonderful about it
As effective as herding cats!
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Vibrato
HA! "meow"
# Posted on March 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Vibrato ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AaAaAaAaAaAa!!!
However you warble it, I still find most sustained vibrato more irritating than pleasing...
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by ceolachan