"The peoples art form" they said.
Well, this implies to me that the people own the art form and not the art form owning the people. We have all been set free at last.
Bring on the didgeridoos and djembes! Dust off the old tuba fetch another round of beers, this is fun I'm starting to enjoy it already.
Sessions with width you beauty
My Dundee friend is obviously being a little mischievous here and, indeed, there are some "nonsense" comments on this clip. However, there are some sensible ones too.
I believe that attempting to present the "big picture" in regards to traditional music is always doomed to failure as there are always so many different views and many of us are very protective of our own particular area.
""It's a shared thing, anyone can come in with just a stick and hit it off another piece of wood."
I'm not sure if this is really acceptable anywhere but the etiquette etc varies greatly in different areas of the traditional music scene. For example, a "singaround" is completely different from a "pure drop" Irish session but there are so many other different possibilities. These are all "distinct" from each other for a very good reason.
It fills me with happiness and light to know that traditional music is one of Scotland's biggest exports (like whisky) and performers are treating it like a business. Bring on the capitalism.
I don't think there really are nonsense comments on the video - just a wide range of views of traditional music in a variety of contexts. Certainly I would not be overly thrilled if 10 folk with wooden blocks and baseball bats came in to the local session looking to add some percussion to the music but in the right context there is no reason why everyone can not participate in traditional music to some extent or other. It is not all sessions.
An interesting site that one.
I have always been of the opinion that the Scots have a much more disciplined approach to their traditional music than we Irish have to ours. Growing up in a border county in the 40s and 50s at a time when there were many marching bands around, I always remember that bands from NI , with their Scottish influence, were always better dressed that our bands. Their instruments were always clean and their uniforms were always complete. Many of the players in our bands couldn't even be bothered to dress in their uniforms, or maybe just threw on a peaked cap for the occasion. Indeed I often heard the older players say that the instruments always seem to play better when encrusted with dirt. Sad to say, that sort of undisciplined approach to the whole scenario also reflected on the music. I often wondered if it was to do with the Scots Presbyterian Ethos as against the 'Ah shure it will do rightly' attitude of their RC neighbours. I'm sorry to say an attitude that still persists in many pockets of the ITM fraternity of Ireland to this day.
" Sad to say, that sort of undisciplined approach to the whole scenario also reflected on the music. I often wondered if it was to do with the Scots Presbyterian Ethos as against the 'Ah shure it will do rightly' attitude of their RC neighbours. I'm sorry to say an attitude that still persists in many pockets of the ITM fraternity of Ireland to this day".
I wonder if Free Reed has been touring Scotland and Ireland recently taking a census of the number of polished fiddles, clean shirts and wiped bums in both countries. If so, I would be interested in seeing the results, broken down by religion of course.
By the way Alistair, I haven't issues with the "everyone can participate" ethos of it, although obviously there are boundaries to where and when *everyone* can participate. I think it's grand they do the wee "learn uilleann pipes in a day" workshops at Celtic Connections, for instance, and you know that I think organizations like Glasgow Fiddle Workshop and Feis Ross do good work making the music accessible to anyone who is interested. Fine and good.
There was just something uncomfortable about Phil Cunningham describing the commercialization of the music as a completely positive thing. Sure, it has positive aspects (admittedly, if I could support myself playing pipes and whistles I wouldn't be doing this bloody PhD) but I also think it changes people's attitude towards it and style of playing in ways that may not in fact benefit the development of the music, c.f http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20780. By all means, if you can make it playing the stuff professionally, go for it -- even Coleman and Killoran made money playing -- but don't lose sight of where it came from or the rough edges. Obviously Phil knows its roots as well as anyone but lets not be like, "Commercialization into the mainstream!! This is totally brilliant!" 'Cause it's not, not all the time.
Some of the comments on this thread are utter crap. Particularly those and those similar to that of pkev. Taking isolated and out of context statements from the clip and then using them to judge the state of Scottish music in pure ignorance. Phil said traditional music is an important export - well it is. He didn't mean that's that's most important thing or that that's what it's all about. It was just one fact among many. The important thing about Scottish trad at the moment is that almost all the folk who play for a living, for a part time living or for fun thoroughly love the music. The majority of all the younger players in Scotland take every opportunity to have a tune. After gigs, after sessions, in hotel rooms, in vehicles etc, etc. Those who make money from trad spend a tiny fraction of their musical lives actually 'working'.
Scottish trad has never been stronger. It has thousands of madly keen youngsters getting great training from passionate and very knowledgeable tutors. Anyone who doubts the intentions of young folk playing trad in Scotland are very much mistaken.
Bigoted Tripe - So there ya go...you give an opinion and you get a smart alec answer in return. However Cónan as you brought the word 'bigot' into the equation, I confess we were all brought up with a certain amount of bigotry around our areas in the the 40s and 50s. For a start I believed that all Protestants went to hell, we were not allowed inside a Protestant Church, if we attended a Protestant neighbour's funeral we didn't enter the graveyard, and all hell broke loose if you married outside your religion. I think that those are excellent examples of Bigotry. However we Catholic musicians (from that era) always believed that the Protestants had the best hymns, and the best bands.
I don't have a problem with people who want to query some of the statements made in that video, or any video, ever, rather than just happily accept it as a brilliant, perfectly accurate description of music in Scotland. For chrissakes, talk to ten traditional musicians about *anything* and you will get eleven different opinions about it. Of course people will take issue with some of the statements and generalizations made on this thread and in that video.
Free Reed, you're not alone in having been brainwashed to a lesser or greater extent. The trouble I have with your statement is that it seems to imply that RC musicians do not care as much about their music and are just interested in "having an oul' tune" in some kind of slap-dash manner. I apologise for calling you a bigot - I thought you had some kind of agenda. I do, however, find it hard to believe that this "attitude" is prevalent in many pockets of the ITM fraternity. Most of the musicians I know, although up for a bit of crack, take the music and their playing of it seriously. Nor do I see the link between this perceived "attitude" and someone's religion. I don't think that sweeping generalisations like this are very helpful (in general!).
I never took an isolated and out of context statement from the clip and then used it to judge the state of Scottish music.
I used it to judge the relevance of the Scottish Arts Council funding an expensive little disjointed montage. Apart from the fact that it was technically dire - the music sounding like it's in the toilet, the confusing cross fades and transparent layering, etc. - I'd like to know what it's for?
I'd estimate it cost upwards of £50,000. I'd like to know what ad agency made the profit
I was refering to pkev's statement Llig.
"Just about sums up where trad music is going today!" - that's what I was objecting to. Whether the video itself is any good was not my point.
I had no problem understanding where Free Reed was coming from with his discursive comment about bands from NI "with their Scottish influence" being more organised.
It doesn't really relate to today's Scottish music scene as far as I can see - for a start the "Presbyterian ethos" doesn't really explain West Highland ceilidh music, or Shetland and Orkney music, or even NE Scotland rural fiddle traditions, let alone the young and thriving session scene.
But it was an interesting opinion nevertheless, and what's wrong with diversions anyway?
Conan - I'm probably guilty of remembering too far back and thinking that maybe things haven't changed that much since I left Ireland in the fifties. They have of course, but occasionally I do come across things that make me ask myself 'What's changed? I'm afraid it is usually musicians of my own age group who are guilty. Accordions with a length of binder twine for a strap and buttons held on with sticky tape. Fiddles wrapped in an old black plastic sack instead of a case. A lad came into a competition I was judging with a drum kit a few years ago, that I swear he pulled out of the ditch that morning. Apart from the rust, the bass drum actually had chicken sh*t all over it. Some years ago I went to hear a well known accordion player in a pub in North Cork. I didn't go much on his playing anyway but was appalled when he moved into the other bar holding his lovely Paolo Soprani by the keyboard and with the open bellows dragging and swinging along behind. Still I suppose I will have to go a long way to beat the guy in a marching band I played with in my youth. In those days we often played the teams around the pitch prior to a football match. At half time this guy, wearing the band uniform, would put a basket on his arm and go around the spectators selling oranges, apples, and minerals. Perhaps I'm too sensitive.
I'm in it ("there has been a huge upsurge...") and I don't know what it's for. Actually, I've no memory of saying any of these things either, but I must have...
Free Reed, those are some brilliant stories there! I don't think I've ever seen anything quite as bad, apart from a bodhran playing friend of mine who got a bit wasted at a festival. Left his drum on the ground to go for a pee and was found lying on top of it the next morning, not having remembered to conceal the oul' fella! I'm afraid to ask, but where do you normally play?
Because we are just that good!
Because we are just that good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88-ipyBDD0I
# Posted on February 24th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Because we are just that good!
And at least one member of this forum is featured in the video.
# Posted on February 24th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Because we are just that good!
Nice to see a great range of views about how important this music is.
# Posted on February 24th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Because we are just that good!
"The peoples art form" they said.
Well, this implies to me that the people own the art form and not the art form owning the people. We have all been set free at last.
Bring on the didgeridoos and djembes! Dust off the old tuba fetch another round of beers, this is fun I'm starting to enjoy it already.
Sessions with width you beauty
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Because we are just that good!
And don't forget! Those who perform are treating it like a business now....so polish up your product for export!
ie learn to play fast with complicated rhythms and a wooden block... and your set for a wonderful career!
Just about sums up where trad music is going today!
pkev
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by pkev
Re: Because we are just that good!
What a load of rubbish pkev.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: Because we are just that good!
"It's a shared thing, anyone can come in with just a stick and hit it off another piece of wood."
Feck off.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Because we are just that good!
My Dundee friend is obviously being a little mischievous here and, indeed, there are some "nonsense" comments on this clip. However, there are some sensible ones too.
I believe that attempting to present the "big picture" in regards to traditional music is always doomed to failure as there are always so many different views and many of us are very protective of our own particular area.
""It's a shared thing, anyone can come in with just a stick and hit it off another piece of wood."
I'm not sure if this is really acceptable anywhere but the etiquette etc varies greatly in different areas of the traditional music scene. For example, a "singaround" is completely different from a "pure drop" Irish session but there are so many other different possibilities. These are all "distinct" from each other for a very good reason.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by John J.
Re: Because we are just that good!
Aye, Michael.
It fills me with happiness and light to know that traditional music is one of Scotland's biggest exports (like whisky) and performers are treating it like a business. Bring on the capitalism.
*eye rolling emoticon*
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Because we are just that good!
I don't think there really are nonsense comments on the video - just a wide range of views of traditional music in a variety of contexts. Certainly I would not be overly thrilled if 10 folk with wooden blocks and baseball bats came in to the local session looking to add some percussion to the music but in the right context there is no reason why everyone can not participate in traditional music to some extent or other. It is not all sessions.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Because we are just that good!
An interesting site that one.
I have always been of the opinion that the Scots have a much more disciplined approach to their traditional music than we Irish have to ours. Growing up in a border county in the 40s and 50s at a time when there were many marching bands around, I always remember that bands from NI , with their Scottish influence, were always better dressed that our bands. Their instruments were always clean and their uniforms were always complete. Many of the players in our bands couldn't even be bothered to dress in their uniforms, or maybe just threw on a peaked cap for the occasion. Indeed I often heard the older players say that the instruments always seem to play better when encrusted with dirt. Sad to say, that sort of undisciplined approach to the whole scenario also reflected on the music. I often wondered if it was to do with the Scots Presbyterian Ethos as against the 'Ah shure it will do rightly' attitude of their RC neighbours. I'm sorry to say an attitude that still persists in many pockets of the ITM fraternity of Ireland to this day.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Because we are just that good!
Bigoted tripe.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Because we are just that good!
What's bigoted tripe, Conan? Alistair's youtube link or marching bands or people's sarcastic responses to the video?
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Because we are just that good!
hehe
This bit:
" Sad to say, that sort of undisciplined approach to the whole scenario also reflected on the music. I often wondered if it was to do with the Scots Presbyterian Ethos as against the 'Ah shure it will do rightly' attitude of their RC neighbours. I'm sorry to say an attitude that still persists in many pockets of the ITM fraternity of Ireland to this day".
I wonder if Free Reed has been touring Scotland and Ireland recently taking a census of the number of polished fiddles, clean shirts and wiped bums in both countries. If so, I would be interested in seeing the results, broken down by religion of course.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Because we are just that good!
By the way Alistair, I haven't issues with the "everyone can participate" ethos of it, although obviously there are boundaries to where and when *everyone* can participate. I think it's grand they do the wee "learn uilleann pipes in a day" workshops at Celtic Connections, for instance, and you know that I think organizations like Glasgow Fiddle Workshop and Feis Ross do good work making the music accessible to anyone who is interested. Fine and good.
There was just something uncomfortable about Phil Cunningham describing the commercialization of the music as a completely positive thing. Sure, it has positive aspects (admittedly, if I could support myself playing pipes and whistles I wouldn't be doing this bloody PhD) but I also think it changes people's attitude towards it and style of playing in ways that may not in fact benefit the development of the music, c.f http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20780. By all means, if you can make it playing the stuff professionally, go for it -- even Coleman and Killoran made money playing -- but don't lose sight of where it came from or the rough edges. Obviously Phil knows its roots as well as anyone but lets not be like, "Commercialization into the mainstream!! This is totally brilliant!" 'Cause it's not, not all the time.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Because we are just that good!
Some of the comments on this thread are utter crap. Particularly those and those similar to that of pkev. Taking isolated and out of context statements from the clip and then using them to judge the state of Scottish music in pure ignorance. Phil said traditional music is an important export - well it is. He didn't mean that's that's most important thing or that that's what it's all about. It was just one fact among many. The important thing about Scottish trad at the moment is that almost all the folk who play for a living, for a part time living or for fun thoroughly love the music. The majority of all the younger players in Scotland take every opportunity to have a tune. After gigs, after sessions, in hotel rooms, in vehicles etc, etc. Those who make money from trad spend a tiny fraction of their musical lives actually 'working'.
Scottish trad has never been stronger. It has thousands of madly keen youngsters getting great training from passionate and very knowledgeable tutors. Anyone who doubts the intentions of young folk playing trad in Scotland are very much mistaken.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: Because we are just that good!
Bigoted Tripe - So there ya go...you give an opinion and you get a smart alec answer in return. However Cónan as you brought the word 'bigot' into the equation, I confess we were all brought up with a certain amount of bigotry around our areas in the the 40s and 50s. For a start I believed that all Protestants went to hell, we were not allowed inside a Protestant Church, if we attended a Protestant neighbour's funeral we didn't enter the graveyard, and all hell broke loose if you married outside your religion. I think that those are excellent examples of Bigotry. However we Catholic musicians (from that era) always believed that the Protestants had the best hymns, and the best bands.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Because we are just that good!
I don't have a problem with people who want to query some of the statements made in that video, or any video, ever, rather than just happily accept it as a brilliant, perfectly accurate description of music in Scotland. For chrissakes, talk to ten traditional musicians about *anything* and you will get eleven different opinions about it. Of course people will take issue with some of the statements and generalizations made on this thread and in that video.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Because we are just that good!
Sorry, am a bit grumpy today. I'm crawling back into the archive now.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Because we are just that good!
Conan have you been taking a census of wiped bums again? has it gone up since the smoking bans came in?
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Because we are just that good!
Free Reed, you're not alone in having been brainwashed to a lesser or greater extent. The trouble I have with your statement is that it seems to imply that RC musicians do not care as much about their music and are just interested in "having an oul' tune" in some kind of slap-dash manner. I apologise for calling you a bigot - I thought you had some kind of agenda. I do, however, find it hard to believe that this "attitude" is prevalent in many pockets of the ITM fraternity. Most of the musicians I know, although up for a bit of crack, take the music and their playing of it seriously. Nor do I see the link between this perceived "attitude" and someone's religion. I don't think that sweeping generalisations like this are very helpful (in general!).
Cheers
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Because we are just that good!
wmh, 30% of people who stated that they were very affected or slightly affected by the smoking ban, have a dirty bum. Fact!
I have it all here in my notebook and there is photographic evidence on my website for anyone who cares to see:
http://www.thesmokingbanmademefollowthrough.com
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Because we are just that good!
Ha! I knew it - they thought they could get away without wiping properly till people (and dogs) were able to smell them.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Because we are just that good!
I never took an isolated and out of context statement from the clip and then used it to judge the state of Scottish music.
I used it to judge the relevance of the Scottish Arts Council funding an expensive little disjointed montage. Apart from the fact that it was technically dire - the music sounding like it's in the toilet, the confusing cross fades and transparent layering, etc. - I'd like to know what it's for?
I'd estimate it cost upwards of £50,000. I'd like to know what ad agency made the profit
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Because we are just that good!
I was refering to pkev's statement Llig.
"Just about sums up where trad music is going today!" - that's what I was objecting to. Whether the video itself is any good was not my point.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: Because we are just that good!
How can a video on traditional music in Scotland end up diverting into a conversation about sectarianism and marching bands in Ireland?
What is wrong with some folk?
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Because we are just that good!
I had no problem understanding where Free Reed was coming from with his discursive comment about bands from NI "with their Scottish influence" being more organised.
It doesn't really relate to today's Scottish music scene as far as I can see - for a start the "Presbyterian ethos" doesn't really explain West Highland ceilidh music, or Shetland and Orkney music, or even NE Scotland rural fiddle traditions, let alone the young and thriving session scene.
But it was an interesting opinion nevertheless, and what's wrong with diversions anyway?
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Bren
Re: Because we are just that good!
Conan - I'm probably guilty of remembering too far back and thinking that maybe things haven't changed that much since I left Ireland in the fifties. They have of course, but occasionally I do come across things that make me ask myself 'What's changed? I'm afraid it is usually musicians of my own age group who are guilty. Accordions with a length of binder twine for a strap and buttons held on with sticky tape. Fiddles wrapped in an old black plastic sack instead of a case. A lad came into a competition I was judging with a drum kit a few years ago, that I swear he pulled out of the ditch that morning. Apart from the rust, the bass drum actually had chicken sh*t all over it. Some years ago I went to hear a well known accordion player in a pub in North Cork. I didn't go much on his playing anyway but was appalled when he moved into the other bar holding his lovely Paolo Soprani by the keyboard and with the open bellows dragging and swinging along behind. Still I suppose I will have to go a long way to beat the guy in a marching band I played with in my youth. In those days we often played the teams around the pitch prior to a football match. At half time this guy, wearing the band uniform, would put a basket on his arm and go around the spectators selling oranges, apples, and minerals. Perhaps I'm too sensitive.
# Posted on February 25th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Because we are just that good!
Whether the video itself is any good was not my point either (just a dig). I want to know what it's for.
# Posted on February 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Because we are just that good!
I'm in it ("there has been a huge upsurge...") and I don't know what it's for. Actually, I've no memory of saying any of these things either, but I must have...
# Posted on February 27th 2009 by nigelg
Re: Because we are just that good!
Free Reed, those are some brilliant stories there! I don't think I've ever seen anything quite as bad, apart from a bodhran playing friend of mine who got a bit wasted at a festival. Left his drum on the ground to go for a pee and was found lying on top of it the next morning, not having remembered to conceal the oul' fella! I'm afraid to ask, but where do you normally play?
Cheers
# Posted on February 27th 2009 by Conán McDonnell