I'm cataloguing information on religions for my job and just saw the following on Wicca (http://www.wicca.org.uk/) which sounded desperately familiar:
'Since Wiccan groups do not seek out members [joining in] can be tricky. The Wiccan community is linked by a number of organisations. The most important of these is the pagan federation. This group is non denominational, however there are many Wiccan members who form the majority. The Pagan Federation sponsors meetings in pubs all around the UK. These are often called moots. The attendees of these moots often carry out circle casting and imagination based practices. Sometimes these are carried out spontaneously, other times on a more structured basis. Some are open, others open to people who are familiar with each other, and some are closed. The closed groups are very similar in practice to the open groups so there is little point in trying to get entry to a very closed group. Generally they are closed because they are friends who have practiced together for a long time and it would not be appropriate to admit someone new. Once you have joined a group you will generally find that after a while you will be able to get modifications made that make you to get more out of the practices. Also these groups often find it difficult to cover all the festivals, particularly the lunar ones and once you show commitment for a significant period you will generally be allowed to play a part in leading some rituals'.
Any ideas why the interaction rules are so similar? Small groups, formally non-hierarchical, participatory - though skill and knowledge matter - as does famliarity with the other participants. Or is it just something to do with the pub?
I guess it's all got to do with a person's desire to be part of a group. The more exclusive the group... the larger sense of belonging a person has. Bothe sessions and covens clearly have the ability to fill that need.
I've never seen a Wiccan gathering at a pub in Australia... and i've been to a few (pubs that is). I know of quite a few pagans that attend sessions tho.
"Small groups, formally non-hierarchical, participatory - though skill and knowledge matter - as does familiarity with the other participants"
You left out "spurious and largely invented tradition"
Maybe there's more similarity than we'd like to think
Hmm ... well, we do sit in a circle - and occasionally we even play "Devil Among the Tailors". And a few people who come to our session are involved with Morris dancing.
Similar to pagans? Probably, we are pagans ...
... although we haven't indulged in any blood sacrifices ...
Hey S1obhan, the next time you get this notion that your local session is like a Pagan gathering, just picture yourself & all your fellow musicians, dancing buck naked around a campfire in the middle of the woods ......... playing 'The Fairy Dance'!
I know this will come as a surprise to no one. Music camps & festivals in northern California often include dancing around the fire. ~ dress however you like. or not
I hope this tendency does not come to my neck of the woods.
My pleasure in mangling the fuggy air with my box bellows down at The Headless Fluter is usually more assured for knowing that I will most likely get a lift back to my doorstep afterwards in a safe, sound and capacious vehicle whose workings are based on the laws of science.
The possible alternative - wrapping myself tightly round the torso of a frisky young woman on a broomstick and soaring over Durham Cathedral - is one I incline to eschew, feeling that the pleasures (mine, that is) are likely to be much outweighed by the risks, and that I would rather be deposited on my bit of pavement from a foot above it than from two hundred feet above it.
it sounds a lot like my dirt-biking buddies - but we sit around the fire drinking beer and telling lies. Thankfully no nude dancing, most of us probably look much better with our clothes *on*.
Yep tomw, it also sounds like my golf buddies. We drink beer and boast about being better than we actually are. Sliced shots into the rough cause us to shout out all sorts of religious expletives.
I agree with hotsauce. You'd probably find the same similarities in any group. It's not a matter of pagan gatherings and trad sessions being similar and thus there must be some connection, it's a matter of humans being humans and this is how we act when we form groups or clubs, IMO.
One common thread between the 2 groups is simply that both are revivals of very old traditions from small rural communities of western Europe. Considering the folk process in general, the similarities are probably inherent.
I think it's actually pretty interesting how the word "pagan" has been recast and appropriated by people who claim to follow it. It's a word that I believe became common in English in the 17th and 18th centuries, describing all the non-monotheistic religions British colonizers were encountering in their world travels. For the most part it had pejorative connotations.
It's just one of those interesting phenomena of language, that 21st century people who practice polytheistic rituals now identify themselves as pagans.
**random footnote: not only did paganism conveniently describe people in Africa or the Americas or Asia, but was also employed in labeling the "Celts" of Ireland and the Scottish Highlands. By the 18th and 19th centuries these places had obviously been predominately Christian for hundreds of years, but 18th and 19th century intellectuals were fascinated by the folk medicine and folklore which went on in these parts of the British Isles. The Celt is described as more or less pagan since they still believed in myths and superstitions, which can be traced back to pre-Christian pagan rituals. This sort of language -- and the connotations of "paganism" regarding a culture's position in the evolutionary strata -- situates the Celt in a dualistic framework, with a primitive superstitious culture on one side and the empirical intellectual one on the other.
Mix, you will recall that at a barndance gig (again, not all that far from Hambrook) the other day the caller entertained everyone with a brush dance during an interval.
Similarity between sessions and paganism
Similarity between sessions and paganism
I'm cataloguing information on religions for my job and just saw the following on Wicca (http://www.wicca.org.uk/) which sounded desperately familiar:
'Since Wiccan groups do not seek out members [joining in] can be tricky. The Wiccan community is linked by a number of organisations. The most important of these is the pagan federation. This group is non denominational, however there are many Wiccan members who form the majority. The Pagan Federation sponsors meetings in pubs all around the UK. These are often called moots. The attendees of these moots often carry out circle casting and imagination based practices. Sometimes these are carried out spontaneously, other times on a more structured basis. Some are open, others open to people who are familiar with each other, and some are closed. The closed groups are very similar in practice to the open groups so there is little point in trying to get entry to a very closed group. Generally they are closed because they are friends who have practiced together for a long time and it would not be appropriate to admit someone new. Once you have joined a group you will generally find that after a while you will be able to get modifications made that make you to get more out of the practices. Also these groups often find it difficult to cover all the festivals, particularly the lunar ones and once you show commitment for a significant period you will generally be allowed to play a part in leading some rituals'.
Any ideas why the interaction rules are so similar? Small groups, formally non-hierarchical, participatory - though skill and knowledge matter - as does famliarity with the other participants. Or is it just something to do with the pub?
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by S1obhan
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I guess it's all got to do with a person's desire to be part of a group. The more exclusive the group... the larger sense of belonging a person has. Bothe sessions and covens clearly have the ability to fill that need.
I've never seen a Wiccan gathering at a pub in Australia... and i've been to a few (pubs that is). I know of quite a few pagans that attend sessions tho.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by davydd
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
"Small groups, formally non-hierarchical, participatory - though skill and knowledge matter - as does familiarity with the other participants"
You left out "spurious and largely invented tradition"
Maybe there's more similarity than we'd like to think
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Bren
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I think you'd find similarly characteristics wherever there was a group of people engaged in a relatively obscure activity.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by hotsauce
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
B careful.
I tried an ITM/Zen comparison thread and Jeremy pulled it.
So I think I will leave the Religion stuff to my Church Organist Sunday maorning alter-ego
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Hmm ... well, we do sit in a circle - and occasionally we even play "Devil Among the Tailors". And a few people who come to our session are involved with Morris dancing.
Similar to pagans? Probably, we are pagans ...
... although we haven't indulged in any blood sacrifices ...
... yet!
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Hey S1obhan, the next time you get this notion that your local session is like a Pagan gathering, just picture yourself & all your fellow musicians, dancing buck naked around a campfire in the middle of the woods ......... playing 'The Fairy Dance'!
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1434/740494816_c88b3b2701.jpg?v=0
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
To quote Jo Brand,
'Wicca? That means basket case,doesn't it?'
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by dafydd
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I know this will come as a surprise to no one. Music camps & festivals in northern California often include dancing around the fire. ~ dress however you like. or not
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I hope this tendency does not come to my neck of the woods.
My pleasure in mangling the fuggy air with my box bellows down at The Headless Fluter is usually more assured for knowing that I will most likely get a lift back to my doorstep afterwards in a safe, sound and capacious vehicle whose workings are based on the laws of science.
The possible alternative - wrapping myself tightly round the torso of a frisky young woman on a broomstick and soaring over Durham Cathedral - is one I incline to eschew, feeling that the pleasures (mine, that is) are likely to be much outweighed by the risks, and that I would rather be deposited on my bit of pavement from a foot above it than from two hundred feet above it.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
it sounds a lot like my dirt-biking buddies - but we sit around the fire drinking beer and telling lies. Thankfully no nude dancing, most of us probably look much better with our clothes *on*.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by tomw
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Yep tomw, it also sounds like my golf buddies. We drink beer and boast about being better than we actually are. Sliced shots into the rough cause us to shout out all sorts of religious expletives.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I agree with hotsauce. You'd probably find the same similarities in any group. It's not a matter of pagan gatherings and trad sessions being similar and thus there must be some connection, it's a matter of humans being humans and this is how we act when we form groups or clubs, IMO.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
One common thread between the 2 groups is simply that both are revivals of very old traditions from small rural communities of western Europe. Considering the folk process in general, the similarities are probably inherent.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by StephenR
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Dare I say that the pagans might be more open to new ideas than some sessions would be?
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I haven't yet heard of sessioners being burnt at the stake, but I'm being cautious anyway.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
This vid would seem to indicate that there is a connection between English trad music and broomsticks ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGBfMjsqvXs
Not very far away from where I live ...
... very worrying ....
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
There are also the cries of "Ailinon! Ailinon!" *whenever someone walks in carrying a bhodran or banjo.
But that'd be more greek than new(ly made up) age.
* as opposed to "Alanon! Alanon!" whenever the flute players arrive.
- Chris
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Pagan - from the Latin "paganus" = country-dweller.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
like peon,peasant etc....
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I think it's actually pretty interesting how the word "pagan" has been recast and appropriated by people who claim to follow it. It's a word that I believe became common in English in the 17th and 18th centuries, describing all the non-monotheistic religions British colonizers were encountering in their world travels. For the most part it had pejorative connotations.
It's just one of those interesting phenomena of language, that 21st century people who practice polytheistic rituals now identify themselves as pagans.
**random footnote: not only did paganism conveniently describe people in Africa or the Americas or Asia, but was also employed in labeling the "Celts" of Ireland and the Scottish Highlands. By the 18th and 19th centuries these places had obviously been predominately Christian for hundreds of years, but 18th and 19th century intellectuals were fascinated by the folk medicine and folklore which went on in these parts of the British Isles. The Celt is described as more or less pagan since they still believed in myths and superstitions, which can be traced back to pre-Christian pagan rituals. This sort of language -- and the connotations of "paganism" regarding a culture's position in the evolutionary strata -- situates the Celt in a dualistic framework, with a primitive superstitious culture on one side and the empirical intellectual one on the other.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
I seem to remember it being used like "heathen" when I was young.
Perhaps we could start a hippy-ish "heathenism" cult.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by Bren
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Mix, you will recall that at a barndance gig (again, not all that far from Hambrook) the other day the caller entertained everyone with a brush dance during an interval.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Ptarmigan
I cna't imagine playing buck naked with perhaps buck naked nubile young female flute players dancing about. I play box...that could become painful
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
Remember that Pink Panther movie where Clouseau used a guitar to preserve his modesty in a nudist colony?
# Posted on February 20th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Similarity between sessions and paganism
>Remember that Pink Panther movie where Clouseau used a >guitar to preserve his modesty in a nudist colony?
I knew there must have been a good reason for the development of the low whistle
- chris
# Posted on February 20th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork