Now... it is specified at the start of the performance that this is an example of 'traditional innovation' which is certainly the end result... but i'm not really sure what to make of it.
To keep this as an informative thread... what would you consider acceptable/tasteful innovation on the music/dance we hold so dear?
well as for the first clip, its probably fine as music. maybe if eileen was a more skilled player and could play in tune it would be much better but as it is it is hard to say. by taking in so many different influences it sounds like a mish mash of styles, it is in limbo between the styles rather than taking on any new art form of its own. its easy to just take outside influences and throw them in. its much harder to innovate from the inside outwards and its also harder to take the a said influence and mould it enough to fit in with the tradition while brining it forward somewhat. in the case of this clip i dont think the people are actually sure themselves what they are suppose to be doing. there is little sign of the tradition in the playing. i accept tasteful innovation but i have not heard someone do this for a long time instead we have these quick fix 'styles' that are about immediate appeal to people who would not be familiar with irish music lets face it. to someone who is new to the music this sounds great but if you played them something like michael coleman they would definately not think the same thing. their ear is not trained to it. of course people may argue as to what this introduction leads to. people hearing a clip like this and eventually do more research and begin listening to the old masters. but that is irrelevent because it is the music itself we are talking about. i agree with tony on this matter, to an extent. innovation can still be done within the traditional style, its just that people are not thinking hard enough about it to come up with something special because it is easier to just throw a few frills in and hope it pulls it off.
We're dealing with opinion and taste here, so it's tough. Perhaps if people gave examples of what they thing is good innovation within the tradition versus poor innovation that strays outside of the tradition. Obviously the pseudo-ballet thing from the example isn't working, but what does work?
I think there’s a really a very small amount of room to innovate, and any innovations take time to sink in and become part of the tradition. This is a good thing in the eyes of those that love the music, because traditional music should be something familiar that doesn’t change a lot.
This is an interesting topic and I’d like to read others’ thoughts and specific examples of good innovation within the tradition versus poor innovation that strays outside of the tradition. We’ve had one clear poor example so from davydd starting the thread, also in the video they did mention the bouzouki, which is an example of good innovation within the tradition, and that example also serves to back up my contention that any good innovation takes a while to become accepted.
I agree with Tony but I personally feel that in the intervening years since that view was expressed there has been a swing in favour of regional styles, in favour of the pure drop, in favour of 'heart music'. Not denying the glitter and pomp of commercial Trazz, after all I play In a wild electric rock band as well! But my main interest is solo, unaccompanied old style trad. I do sometimes enjoy listening to trad bands, but they wouldnt find a place on my CD l player in general.
but Ruairi;>>if eileen was a more skilled player and could play in tune>> I think that a bit of a joke! Perhaps youd like to stand up in front of a camera so we can take pot shots at you? ! You and I may, or may not like her style etc, but out of tune? more skilled player? come on who do you rate as more skilled that her then? Come on dont be shy.... are you a better player ?
In my view (only personal opinion) innovation separates from tradition very quickly. I think innovation within the tradition is a very delicate thing and you can't take it very far before it's not traditional any more. I think that's a good thing because a large percentage of people who innovate still care deeply about the tradition. I don't really agree with Tony McMahon's opinion where he says innovation is threatening the tradition, IMO it's media that does that - it's very difficult indeed to protect regional styles with todays technology. There has always been innovation and I think it's unfair to lay the blame there.
Personally I agree with Kenny as regards good innovation. Cormac Breatnach has explored without ever losing the heart of the music.
I'm probably the odd man out here, but I don't understand why we should be forced to choose. There are useful things to take away from both schools of thought. Inevitably, the things that work remain, and the things that appear gimmicky or incongruous fall by the wayside. This past week I was listening to Sharon Shannon CDs and Gerry O'Connor's Myriad Album. Both artists use elements from the new and the old. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. I think it is the tug of war between these two ideas that keeps the tradition moving forward.
I don't think we need to get hung up on one versus the other - they are what they are. We've had the likes of Horslips with their electric guitars, Davy Spillane with his "Bo Diddley" style backing but have either done any harm to the tradition? Riverdance has come and gone and various new young bands are experimenting with East European influences (the dreaded off-beat, etc) but we've always got Coleman, Morrison, Clancy, Cooley, etc, etc as a reminder (if it were needed) of what it's really about. Young people will have their fun with the music but, like the rest of us, in their sunset years will most likely return to the Pure Drop and end up in sessions playing the Tarbolton set, Lady Ann and suchlike.
I think maybe the most poignant thing in the video was the initial statement that there's a "balance of change", with "tradition being what's passed on to you", and "innovation being what you do with it".
Within the tradition, there will always be the fringe elements (on both ends of the spectrum, from complete purists to experimentalists), but the tradition as a whole exists in the area between those fringe elements.
And the tradition isn't a separate entity. We are *part* of it. And what we do with it affects the tradition as a whole in the future. So each and every one of us has to make the personal choice of how to treat the tradition - or how "traditional" we should be - meaning which way we lean in the "balance of change". For myself, I choose to lean toward the "tradition" end, not the "innovation" end (even though I'm a banjo player )
One can hope that the fringe elements don't garner TOO much attention, and have too much of an effect on the tradition as a whole, because if one side pushes too hard, the other side will invariably push back.
But it's still a matter of personal choice for each person that is part of the tradition. It's not necessarily a *conscious* choice for a lot of people, but I hope that we can all put at least some thought into the fact that we *are* the tradition, and that we will pass it on to others. It would be nice if it weren't too battered in the process
oh come on ionannas, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. if you want to look me up on youtube, fine, but that would not serve anything only that you would hear me play. it is irrelevent whether i am better than her or not.
what you are essentially saying is that unless i am the greatest player who ever lived than i am not allowed to pass judgement on ANY player. grow up! i am speaking from the point of view of having heard countless players which im sure many on this site have. a persons knowledge of the music is more important than how great they are as i have said many times. i know plenty of people who dont play but know enormous amounts about the music and i respect them for that. when i say i think someone is good or not so much, like anyone, i am not comparing them to me. it is stupid to think so.
but you'd have to be tone deaf not to hear that in that clip she is incredibly rough at times and does go out of tune! it is not an 'opinion', it is a fact, just listen to it. its right there!!!
okay you want more skilled players than her, okay lets see, any of the past masters, frankie, peoples, james kelly, sean keane, basically any of the respected players that we all listen to and i know you do too.
but you are changing the subject towards discussing her playing, what the discussion is about is WHAT she is playing and the hilarious dancing that is going on.
obviously you only read the first line of my comment so go back and read the rest before having a fit!!!!
but going back to the discussion i think that it is great that we have the choice of the two genres. regardless of what either of them do like any good music, hopefully, only the best examples linger on and the not so good do eventually fall to the wayside. there'll be many bad attempt but out of these there shoudl be something memorable.
Good music must have passion, if it is to be "innovative" and sit alongside the "Tradition" it must have passion in abundance. The music played by that fiddle could as easily have been played by a computer, totally dispassionate!
As a guitar player, I run into this "choice" all the time. First, there are those that think that the guitar should not be used at all in Irish music. Then, there are those that tolerate it as long as it is in the background. I play 12 string guitar in standard tuning. I may eventually go to DADGAD, but I thought it was important to learn the tunes before I experimented wirth DADGAD.
I have run into a number of trad players who hate my 12 string. I play both melody and do backing, oftentimes in the same tune. Most people give me great feedback and love the way the 12 string fills in the background, and how it sounds like a harp when I play melody. But the trad players, think the 12 string "muddies" the sound and they do not like it. It is shear coincidence that the trad players, for the most part, are concertina players.
I have found many of the concertina players I play with cannot keep a proper rythm when they play. I assumed that it is the in and out motion of playing the concertina that contributes to their inability to stay on tempo. I am not trying the slam concertina players because I do play with one who is always spot on with his tempo.
Getting back to trad vs innovation, all I want to do it play good music; it seems to me that having this discussion promotes good music, but it does seem that the trad players do not want change. And that's ok; they should play with like minded musicians.
As for the clip that Davydd offered up, I did not particularly care for either the fiddling or the dancing, but to each their own. My apologies to all the concertina players out there, I hope this posting did not create the impression that I don't like playing with concertina players. A good player is a good player, no matter what the instrument.
I aggree with Tony -- And beleave it or not with When young I was maybe one of the worst offenders at fleadhs --
at one point one of the well knowen Auld boys fiddler said , I'd Make a great Jazz player....
I was brought up in the Bothy Band Area - And you cant say they
did not Bring Great Innovation, To ITM,,,
But its went beyond a joke, perhaps . And with so many
other Influances, and other countries Styles in it now,,,
It is Kinda lost the IRISH TRADITION - And like Classical music
after - Schoenberg etc,,, Will ITM go the same way ????
jim,,
You want me to listen to it again! LOL but seriously Ruari, I have loads of fiddlers on CD who are far more out of tune than that! The idea that she is out of tune is laughable , its not true!. I did listen to it again, the things i do to for the music!I couldnt find one note off. Could to tell me at what time on the clip she is out? and even were she off, so what? she has already proved her worth a thousand times as a fiddler, are we not allowed to make mistakes? She is only human after all!
What she is playing is up to her.
Your comments were directed at how she played them!>>maybe if eileen was a more skilled player and could play in tune it would be much better but as it is it is hard to say.<< not mine!
My point is that who are we to judge others? Its easy to sit at home and mock the hard work and effort others put in, not so easy to get up their and do it yourself. If you or anyone wants to get up there and show us all how it should be done then great, go for it.
As far as the fiddlers you mentioned, all great fiddlers but could they do what she does? even if they wanted to? If you have heard her 1st album you know she can play it straight down the line if she wants to.
Joe Ryan and Eddie Clarke - fiddle and harmonica duets - that's one example of fantastic innovation within the tradition. I didn't believe it could be good until I heard it, but Clarke's assimilation of Ryan's fiddle style creates an almost seamless blend of strings and reeds that is eerie to hear. The playing is definitely traditional, but the choice of instruments isn't.
Likewise, as SWFL said, the bouzouki is an innovative addition to the tradition, and I haven't heard any backing that I prefer to Alec Finn's raindrop-style accompaniment.
Not that I dislike Arty McGlynn's machine-gun guitar either. Again, fairly new, particularly his personal style.
Likewise, piano. It's been around for a while now, but any accompaniment is a relatively recent addition to the tradition. Many new-school players hate piano accompaniment as 'too old-fashioned' but it's not exactly a folk instrument, and it's only been part of Irish music for a relatively short time compared to the main melody instruments.
In relation to the clip, I thought it was interesting what Byrne said about Mulvihill's influence on Ivers' playing - there isn't a drop of West Limerick in her performance here. Personally I hated it, mostly because of the stylistic interpretation of the tunes, rather than her intonation. I prefer to hear a fiddler with traditional style.
If Michael Coleman were to walk into your session right now* & begin to play "that" would be innovation ~ with a base in tradition, 1st of all because today he would be playing differently than he had before. Music is not static. & secondly because everyone would be caught off guard & therefore your session would simply be different than it had ever been before.
*I know ~ it's impossible
I wonder what new tunes he might play?
I think we're starting to confuse Innovation with personal style - although I am enjoying the debate between Ionannea and Fiddleruairi. Eileen Ivers attacks the tunes aggressively - almost like a lead guitar player in a rock band. Her studio take on Julia Delanney is even more intense than her take in the video clip. She likes to push the envelope, put the peddle to the metal, get two wheels up off the road going into the turns. Some might say "out of tune." I'd say "passionate." LOL. Does she show the delicate precision of Keane? No. The creative flair of Peoples? No. But these are all examples of personal style - not innovation. Am I wrong here?
The real question is, "does innovation (which does happen over time) come through the schtick of a performer on stage or through some of those same players' individual style in session?"
I think each contributes to the other, although not equally.
A full stage production diminishes the subtleties. In session the subtleties add so much. The 2 aren't necessarily disconnected.
im only talking about this one clip. im not going to go through the video and list each time she is out of tune. what would that achieve. you said yourself after listening again that you dont think she is out of tune, so if that is your belief than im not gonna try and convince you.
that was the only reference to the way she played the tune though. the rest of the comment has been forgotton about in favour of picking up on one sentence and blowing it out of proportion. do i think that the players i mentioned could do what she does. yes i do! i honestly do believe that frankie gavin, sean keane, and the like can do it, and not only that do it better! they choose not to though. i know she can play straight down the line, but she chooses not to. we're discussing the clip shown to us here though.
fine if she wants to play like that. but why should i not be allowed give my opinion on her? just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean i should be deprived of that right.
i said in the rest of my first comment, as far as this clip goes, it is not innovative. it comes across as a mish mash of styles, and the dance has no resemblence to irish dance, expressive, ballet, hip hop, anything. its embarrassing.
Fair enough ruairi. I think she has gone far beyond the boundaries of the tradition . I agree its a mish mash of influences, but thats the risk she takes in exploring new ground, it wont all be great... but thats what artists do, they take risks. Innovative.. of course it is, radically so! Too radical for many! But IMO its like this. she has taken a step, some say a step too far! , but nonetheless, she went on a 'journey ' where it might end up no one knows but at least she had the courage to break new ground. For those of us that sit at home and dont venture beyond those traditional boundries she shows us some of what can be done... Its radical innovation and I respect her for taking those steps, whether I wish to listen to it is another matter altogether! but fair play to her.
I dont think the tradition is at all at risk from this kind of thing, its the more subtle changes that bother me; the omnipresent guitar, the tame, civilised , constrained dull and boring middle of the road stuff that seems to be pumped out weekly that worries me. Where is the passion? where are the risks? where do they push the boundaries without breaking them? The heart?The raw wind of the Atlantic? IMO theres too much centrally heated, all mod cons, 4wheel drive celtic tiger trad that bores the shirt of me. too much technique, not enough soul.
i agree with you there ionannas, i think it is the middle of the road stuff that is more damaging then this kind of thing. stuff like the comhaltas style which promotes carefull playing rather than actually being true to oneself or a regional style. there are loads more young people playing nowadays but there are probably less stand-out talents as a results. of course there are exceptions but generally there are more middle of the road players as you say for every one great player.
Surely a case of a discussion between those who 'Like to be entertained' and those 'Who like to listen' A bit like being present at a Symphony Concert. where you sit still, sometimes with eyes closed, and let the music wash over you or being present at something like 'High School Musical' where the music means nowt but the legs on some of those girls.........Phew!
~ an interview with Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh in the JMI
by Toner Quinn, September/October 2007 : Volume 7, Number 5
TQ: Did you have a typical traditional fiddler background?
"Yes and no. I think I have gone into way, way, way more detail than most people in my learning. I started at 10 and up to about 16 I was in the system, going to Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann in Ballinteer for lessons. I was very lucky with certain teachers. I had Michael Tubridy teaching me flute, Phelim O’Reilly in Clontarf teaching me fiddle. I had pipes as well. Joe Doyle was teaching me pipes. They were hugely inspirational. But in terms of goals and aims and peers it was Comhaltas. So the aim is to win an All Ireland, to go on a Comhaltas tour, and so on. It’s very narrow and the way you judge music is really narrow in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. At 16 something made me realise that nobody was teaching the thing that mattered, the difference between music that lifts your heart and music that doesn’t, which is the thing that makes life worth living."
Ionannas, I've lost posts in my browser too in the past, so what I do now with a lengthy post is to type it first in Notepad, and then copy and paste it into TheSession.
Bracket, if you will, the entirety of what I say here with the disclaimer "in my opinion". Not even so much a considered opinion, but some un-digested thoughts, posted for what they're worth.
The question is not so much about whether one is "allowed", in the tradition, to be an indvidual, or whether the tradition should constrain someone's free spirit to a cage of standardised tines played in time-tested settings and shackeled together in their sets. I don't think anyone would consider Tommy Peoples to be "out of the tradition" but I defy anyone to play the way he does. It's his thing, it's beautiful, and it's completely traditional.
So what is it about the Ivers performance - about her entire style - that brings this question up?
Here's a speculation: it's the way in which she innovates. Her innovations are based on trad tunes, and she certainly has a tremendous command of trad techniques, but she plays in a way that is removed from the traditional context. Trad tunes, have two native environments: the session, and the dance. I'm absolutely certain that if Ivers turns up at a session, she doesn't do what she does in that clip, and I'm sure she's wonderful to play with,
BUT
what she does on her records and in her performances could not be played in either a session or a dance without clearing the room. Contrast that with a "traditional innovator" like Peoples. What he's doing might be difficult to play with or to dance to - he plays fast, and he's wondrous tricky - but his playing would be at home in either the session or the dance.
Playing for the dance is subordinating yourself to the purpose of the dance, playing in the session is subordinating yourself to the one big tune that you're all playing together (that sounds too mystical, but this is undigested thought...) - notice that guitars, bodhrans, and hippies with digiridon'ts are all obnoxious when they fail on this, and welcome when they succeed. Within that framework, people have plenty of room to shine, be it by a nice twist on the tune here and there, or a good drive, good phrasing, we can hear a personal touch and appreciate it, but when it distracts from the whole, from the purpose of the endeavor, it's annoying and we want it to stop.
If Ivers showed up at a session and played that wonderful fantasy on Julia Delaney, we'd want her to stop - but even McMahon agreed, insisted even, that it was a wonderful piece of music.
So there's something, maybe to think about on tradition and innovation. Tradition and innovation are not opposed at all, but if you want to claim some piece of the tradition you have to respect what constitutes that tradition.
Now, here's another thought. How traditional is what Comhaltas does?
If ITM Innovation needs to be well founded on a basis of Tradition then surely there is a place for a Comhaltas (or similar) as part of that base or foundation stone. I Am not getting into any discussions about the politics or other aspects of the hieracrchy of CCE and make no comment about the relative merit of how it is all run.
But to innovate in the tradition you need to be steeped in it first. People have argued that some of the judging at Fleadhs is inhibitive of innovation but the judges are only human and have likes/dislikes - its a rotten job.
Yep, like any job that puts you up their in the limelight..means everyone can take pot shots! I wonder does their pay reflect that? I doubt it.
I think they have done wonderful things for the music but like everything there are always 2 sides , a good and a not so good. Its clear that a strong character such as Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh is able to move on and build upon the foundation he got and I really admire him for that. He really hit the nail on the head with his point about music; << the difference between music that lifts your heart and music that doesn’t, which is the thing that makes life worth living.">>
I've just had a quick squint at the video without the sound on (don't ask) and it looks like the same piece that was featured on the River of Sound tv series some years back.
If Eileen Ivers is playing a sort of Julia Delaney thing, it's definitiely the same piece. I liked it when I saw it originally, but now it just reminds me of something else I saw on tv even longer ago - dancers from the Royal School of Ballet doing Morris. Technically impressive, but didn't look like the "real thing".
I'm sorry I don't see it here. This sounds as if it were slapped together at last minute. Eileen's fiddle sounded terrible and with Tommy having trouble staying together with Eileen? Where is the respect for the music? From a Trad. prospective I can understand why Tony said what he did.
I don't see innovation musically. I see trad players trying to do something different at whim and last minute. As for the dancer, free form dance for 30 seconds (If that) then in to traditional dance and maybe a little tap?
(I know nothing about dance).
As for Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin example. The idea is good (Bouzuoki) but gave no credit to those individual's who built it and adapted for Irish music.
I think respectful innovation is:
Planxty
Bothy Band
Donal Lunny's work over the past 20 years.
Shuan Davey
Sean O'Raida
I'm sure there is a bit more but can't recall..
Innovation in traditional music should be thought out and presented with respect. I don't think this was.
Davydd - great post. I would love to see innovation that is cultural, progressive and tasteful.
Although I'm not crazy about some of the direction she takes the innovation part, I very much respect her as a player. I didn't have any problems with her intonation. I'm not a fiddler, but no matter. Some of the best fiddling I've ever heard strays far from perfect pitch. If you listen to Appalachian fiddlers, they sometimes purposefully stray into weird subtleties with regards to intonation.
Also… this debate about innovation has been going on for at least 30 years now. Yet there are more traditional players around now than ever. Granted there is also heaps of players who don't understand the basics, but I really don't think Irish trad music is going extinct.
I hate these discussions that treat the music as if it was a zero sum game, as if every Celtic Woman CD sold is one less solo accordion player CD sold, as if folks that dip into the tradition for inspiration are somehow cheapening it if they borrow from it without hewing to every nuance of the tradition.
The music is strong enough to survive on its own merits. Innovators make the tent bigger, and actually help reinvigorate the tradition by bringing new people into the fold. If you don't like it, don't listen to it, but don't tear it down because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions of what good music is. It would be a sad world if only a few people's idea of good music ruled what was available or what was played. And I can think of dozens of innovators that I have seen in session settings who do just fine playing the pure drop, but like to do other things as well. The fact that they are versatile and open to new ideas and styles does not make them some sort of vile traitors that should be shunned.
It is a big world out there, open your minds a bit........
There's an extract from Tony MacMahon's memoir in the latest issue of JMI which gives some idea of the background which shaped his ideas on music. http://thejmi.com/
Tradition vs. Innovation
Tradition vs. Innovation
Ok... before I posted this... I had a look throught the archives and noticed this is quite a debated subject... but here goes anyways.
I came across this on the tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPhFh72VxZo&feature=subscription
Now... it is specified at the start of the performance that this is an example of 'traditional innovation' which is certainly the end result... but i'm not really sure what to make of it.
To keep this as an informative thread... what would you consider acceptable/tasteful innovation on the music/dance we hold so dear?
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by davydd
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThxECxTDLVA
I agree with Tony.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by dinn2
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Woof, what a truck load of worms.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
well as for the first clip, its probably fine as music. maybe if eileen was a more skilled player and could play in tune it would be much better but as it is it is hard to say. by taking in so many different influences it sounds like a mish mash of styles, it is in limbo between the styles rather than taking on any new art form of its own. its easy to just take outside influences and throw them in. its much harder to innovate from the inside outwards and its also harder to take the a said influence and mould it enough to fit in with the tradition while brining it forward somewhat. in the case of this clip i dont think the people are actually sure themselves what they are suppose to be doing. there is little sign of the tradition in the playing. i accept tasteful innovation but i have not heard someone do this for a long time instead we have these quick fix 'styles' that are about immediate appeal to people who would not be familiar with irish music lets face it. to someone who is new to the music this sounds great but if you played them something like michael coleman they would definately not think the same thing. their ear is not trained to it. of course people may argue as to what this introduction leads to. people hearing a clip like this and eventually do more research and begin listening to the old masters. but that is irrelevent because it is the music itself we are talking about. i agree with tony on this matter, to an extent. innovation can still be done within the traditional style, its just that people are not thinking hard enough about it to come up with something special because it is easier to just throw a few frills in and hope it pulls it off.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
We're dealing with opinion and taste here, so it's tough. Perhaps if people gave examples of what they thing is good innovation within the tradition versus poor innovation that strays outside of the tradition. Obviously the pseudo-ballet thing from the example isn't working, but what does work?
I think there’s a really a very small amount of room to innovate, and any innovations take time to sink in and become part of the tradition. This is a good thing in the eyes of those that love the music, because traditional music should be something familiar that doesn’t change a lot.
This is an interesting topic and I’d like to read others’ thoughts and specific examples of good innovation within the tradition versus poor innovation that strays outside of the tradition. We’ve had one clear poor example so from davydd starting the thread, also in the video they did mention the bouzouki, which is an example of good innovation within the tradition, and that example also serves to back up my contention that any good innovation takes a while to become accepted.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Good innovation.....
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/445
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I agree with Tony but I personally feel that in the intervening years since that view was expressed there has been a swing in favour of regional styles, in favour of the pure drop, in favour of 'heart music'. Not denying the glitter and pomp of commercial Trazz, after all I play In a wild electric rock band as well! But my main interest is solo, unaccompanied old style trad. I do sometimes enjoy listening to trad bands, but they wouldnt find a place on my CD l player in general.
but Ruairi;>>if eileen was a more skilled player and could play in tune>> I think that a bit of a joke! Perhaps youd like to stand up in front of a camera so we can take pot shots at you? ! You and I may, or may not like her style etc, but out of tune? more skilled player? come on who do you rate as more skilled that her then? Come on dont be shy.... are you a better player ?
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
In my view (only personal opinion) innovation separates from tradition very quickly. I think innovation within the tradition is a very delicate thing and you can't take it very far before it's not traditional any more. I think that's a good thing because a large percentage of people who innovate still care deeply about the tradition. I don't really agree with Tony McMahon's opinion where he says innovation is threatening the tradition, IMO it's media that does that - it's very difficult indeed to protect regional styles with todays technology. There has always been innovation and I think it's unfair to lay the blame there.
Personally I agree with Kenny as regards good innovation. Cormac Breatnach has explored without ever losing the heart of the music.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I'm probably the odd man out here, but I don't understand why we should be forced to choose. There are useful things to take away from both schools of thought. Inevitably, the things that work remain, and the things that appear gimmicky or incongruous fall by the wayside. This past week I was listening to Sharon Shannon CDs and Gerry O'Connor's Myriad Album. Both artists use elements from the new and the old. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. I think it is the tug of war between these two ideas that keeps the tradition moving forward.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I don't think we need to get hung up on one versus the other - they are what they are. We've had the likes of Horslips with their electric guitars, Davy Spillane with his "Bo Diddley" style backing but have either done any harm to the tradition? Riverdance has come and gone and various new young bands are experimenting with East European influences (the dreaded off-beat, etc) but we've always got Coleman, Morrison, Clancy, Cooley, etc, etc as a reminder (if it were needed) of what it's really about. Young people will have their fun with the music but, like the rest of us, in their sunset years will most likely return to the Pure Drop and end up in sessions playing the Tarbolton set, Lady Ann and suchlike.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I think maybe the most poignant thing in the video was the initial statement that there's a "balance of change", with "tradition being what's passed on to you", and "innovation being what you do with it".
)
Within the tradition, there will always be the fringe elements (on both ends of the spectrum, from complete purists to experimentalists), but the tradition as a whole exists in the area between those fringe elements.
And the tradition isn't a separate entity. We are *part* of it. And what we do with it affects the tradition as a whole in the future. So each and every one of us has to make the personal choice of how to treat the tradition - or how "traditional" we should be - meaning which way we lean in the "balance of change". For myself, I choose to lean toward the "tradition" end, not the "innovation" end (even though I'm a banjo player
One can hope that the fringe elements don't garner TOO much attention, and have too much of an effect on the tradition as a whole, because if one side pushes too hard, the other side will invariably push back.
But it's still a matter of personal choice for each person that is part of the tradition. It's not necessarily a *conscious* choice for a lot of people, but I hope that we can all put at least some thought into the fact that we *are* the tradition, and that we will pass it on to others. It would be nice if it weren't too battered in the process
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
oh come on ionannas, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. if you want to look me up on youtube, fine, but that would not serve anything only that you would hear me play. it is irrelevent whether i am better than her or not.
what you are essentially saying is that unless i am the greatest player who ever lived than i am not allowed to pass judgement on ANY player. grow up! i am speaking from the point of view of having heard countless players which im sure many on this site have. a persons knowledge of the music is more important than how great they are as i have said many times. i know plenty of people who dont play but know enormous amounts about the music and i respect them for that. when i say i think someone is good or not so much, like anyone, i am not comparing them to me. it is stupid to think so.
but you'd have to be tone deaf not to hear that in that clip she is incredibly rough at times and does go out of tune! it is not an 'opinion', it is a fact, just listen to it. its right there!!!
okay you want more skilled players than her, okay lets see, any of the past masters, frankie, peoples, james kelly, sean keane, basically any of the respected players that we all listen to and i know you do too.
but you are changing the subject towards discussing her playing, what the discussion is about is WHAT she is playing and the hilarious dancing that is going on.
obviously you only read the first line of my comment so go back and read the rest before having a fit!!!!
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
but going back to the discussion i think that it is great that we have the choice of the two genres. regardless of what either of them do like any good music, hopefully, only the best examples linger on and the not so good do eventually fall to the wayside. there'll be many bad attempt but out of these there shoudl be something memorable.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Good music must have passion, if it is to be "innovative" and sit alongside the "Tradition" it must have passion in abundance. The music played by that fiddle could as easily have been played by a computer, totally dispassionate!
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Cathal Buí Mac Giolla Ghunna
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Eileen uses plenty of effects these days but she does have passion.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
As a guitar player, I run into this "choice" all the time. First, there are those that think that the guitar should not be used at all in Irish music. Then, there are those that tolerate it as long as it is in the background. I play 12 string guitar in standard tuning. I may eventually go to DADGAD, but I thought it was important to learn the tunes before I experimented wirth DADGAD.
I have run into a number of trad players who hate my 12 string. I play both melody and do backing, oftentimes in the same tune. Most people give me great feedback and love the way the 12 string fills in the background, and how it sounds like a harp when I play melody. But the trad players, think the 12 string "muddies" the sound and they do not like it. It is shear coincidence that the trad players, for the most part, are concertina players.
I have found many of the concertina players I play with cannot keep a proper rythm when they play. I assumed that it is the in and out motion of playing the concertina that contributes to their inability to stay on tempo. I am not trying the slam concertina players because I do play with one who is always spot on with his tempo.
Getting back to trad vs innovation, all I want to do it play good music; it seems to me that having this discussion promotes good music, but it does seem that the trad players do not want change. And that's ok; they should play with like minded musicians.
As for the clip that Davydd offered up, I did not particularly care for either the fiddling or the dancing, but to each their own. My apologies to all the concertina players out there, I hope this posting did not create the impression that I don't like playing with concertina players. A good player is a good player, no matter what the instrument.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I aggree with Tony -- And beleave it or not with When young I was maybe one of the worst offenders at fleadhs --
at one point one of the well knowen Auld boys fiddler said , I'd Make a great Jazz player....
I was brought up in the Bothy Band Area - And you cant say they
did not Bring Great Innovation, To ITM,,,
But its went beyond a joke, perhaps . And with so many
other Influances, and other countries Styles in it now,,,
It is Kinda lost the IRISH TRADITION - And like Classical music
after - Schoenberg etc,,, Will ITM go the same way ????
jim,,
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
You want me to listen to it again! LOL but seriously Ruari, I have loads of fiddlers on CD who are far more out of tune than that! The idea that she is out of tune is laughable , its not true!. I did listen to it again, the things i do to for the music!
I couldnt find one note off. Could to tell me at what time on the clip she is out? and even were she off, so what? she has already proved her worth a thousand times as a fiddler, are we not allowed to make mistakes? She is only human after all!
What she is playing is up to her.
Your comments were directed at how she played them!>>maybe if eileen was a more skilled player and could play in tune it would be much better but as it is it is hard to say.<< not mine!
My point is that who are we to judge others? Its easy to sit at home and mock the hard work and effort others put in, not so easy to get up their and do it yourself. If you or anyone wants to get up there and show us all how it should be done then great, go for it.
As far as the fiddlers you mentioned, all great fiddlers but could they do what she does? even if they wanted to? If you have heard her 1st album you know she can play it straight down the line if she wants to.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Joe Ryan and Eddie Clarke - fiddle and harmonica duets - that's one example of fantastic innovation within the tradition. I didn't believe it could be good until I heard it, but Clarke's assimilation of Ryan's fiddle style creates an almost seamless blend of strings and reeds that is eerie to hear. The playing is definitely traditional, but the choice of instruments isn't.
Likewise, as SWFL said, the bouzouki is an innovative addition to the tradition, and I haven't heard any backing that I prefer to Alec Finn's raindrop-style accompaniment.
Not that I dislike Arty McGlynn's machine-gun guitar either. Again, fairly new, particularly his personal style.
Likewise, piano. It's been around for a while now, but any accompaniment is a relatively recent addition to the tradition. Many new-school players hate piano accompaniment as 'too old-fashioned' but it's not exactly a folk instrument, and it's only been part of Irish music for a relatively short time compared to the main melody instruments.
In relation to the clip, I thought it was interesting what Byrne said about Mulvihill's influence on Ivers' playing - there isn't a drop of West Limerick in her performance here. Personally I hated it, mostly because of the stylistic interpretation of the tunes, rather than her intonation. I prefer to hear a fiddler with traditional style.
The dancer however was, erm, interesting.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
If Michael Coleman were to walk into your session right now* & begin to play "that" would be innovation ~ with a base in tradition, 1st of all because today he would be playing differently than he had before. Music is not static. & secondly because everyone would be caught off guard & therefore your session would simply be different than it had ever been before.
*I know ~ it's impossible
I wonder what new tunes he might play?
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I think we're starting to confuse Innovation with personal style - although I am enjoying the debate between Ionannea and Fiddleruairi.
Eileen Ivers attacks the tunes aggressively - almost like a lead guitar player in a rock band. Her studio take on Julia Delanney is even more intense than her take in the video clip. She likes to push the envelope, put the peddle to the metal, get two wheels up off the road going into the turns. Some might say "out of tune." I'd say "passionate." LOL. Does she show the delicate precision of Keane? No. The creative flair of Peoples? No. But these are all examples of personal style - not innovation. Am I wrong here?
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Robert any idea where I can get a copy of that crossroads ?
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
If you plug an electric fiddle in... thats innovation. IMO
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
You can download it from emusic.
http://www.emusic.com/album/Eddie-Clarke-and-Joe-Ryan-Crossroads-MP3-Download/11013376.html
If you don't have membership already you can sign up and get 25 free downloads as part of the trial...
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Jusa, I would say that Peoples' personal style is innovative, certainly.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
The real question is, "does innovation (which does happen over time) come through the schtick of a performer on stage or through some of those same players' individual style in session?"
I think each contributes to the other, although not equally.
A full stage production diminishes the subtleties. In session the subtleties add so much. The 2 aren't necessarily disconnected.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
good interview ~ http://www.irishfiddle.com/peoplesinterview.html
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Robert Ryan, I'd agree with you on Peoples. Perhaps the truest test of innovation is it's lasting influence.
Great interview Random Notes
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Jeez Robert I did all that! I just get these feckin .emp files! aaargh
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
im only talking about this one clip. im not going to go through the video and list each time she is out of tune. what would that achieve. you said yourself after listening again that you dont think she is out of tune, so if that is your belief than im not gonna try and convince you.
that was the only reference to the way she played the tune though. the rest of the comment has been forgotton about in favour of picking up on one sentence and blowing it out of proportion. do i think that the players i mentioned could do what she does. yes i do! i honestly do believe that frankie gavin, sean keane, and the like can do it, and not only that do it better! they choose not to though. i know she can play straight down the line, but she chooses not to. we're discussing the clip shown to us here though.
fine if she wants to play like that. but why should i not be allowed give my opinion on her? just because you dont agree with me doesnt mean i should be deprived of that right.
i said in the rest of my first comment, as far as this clip goes, it is not innovative. it comes across as a mish mash of styles, and the dance has no resemblence to irish dance, expressive, ballet, hip hop, anything. its embarrassing.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Fair enough ruairi. I think she has gone far beyond the boundaries of the tradition . I agree its a mish mash of influences, but thats the risk she takes in exploring new ground, it wont all be great... but thats what artists do, they take risks. Innovative.. of course it is, radically so! Too radical for many! But IMO its like this. she has taken a step, some say a step too far! , but nonetheless, she went on a 'journey ' where it might end up no one knows but at least she had the courage to break new ground. For those of us that sit at home and dont venture beyond those traditional boundries she shows us some of what can be done... Its radical innovation and I respect her for taking those steps, whether I wish to listen to it is another matter altogether!
but fair play to her.
I dont think the tradition is at all at risk from this kind of thing, its the more subtle changes that bother me; the omnipresent guitar, the tame, civilised , constrained dull and boring middle of the road stuff that seems to be pumped out weekly that worries me. Where is the passion? where are the risks? where do they push the boundaries without breaking them? The heart?The raw wind of the Atlantic? IMO theres too much centrally heated, all mod cons, 4wheel drive celtic tiger trad that bores the shirt of me. too much technique, not enough soul.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
i agree with you there ionannas, i think it is the middle of the road stuff that is more damaging then this kind of thing. stuff like the comhaltas style which promotes carefull playing rather than actually being true to oneself or a regional style. there are loads more young people playing nowadays but there are probably less stand-out talents as a results. of course there are exceptions but generally there are more middle of the road players as you say for every one great player.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Comhaltas style promotes "careful playing?" Could you elaborate fiddleruari?
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Surely a case of a discussion between those who 'Like to be entertained' and those 'Who like to listen' A bit like being present at a Symphony Concert. where you sit still, sometimes with eyes closed, and let the music wash over you or being present at something like 'High School Musical' where the music means nowt but the legs on some of those girls.........Phew!
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
My long post just got eaten by my browser, feckit...
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
It's my day to read interviews;
~ an interview with Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh in the JMI
by Toner Quinn, September/October 2007 : Volume 7, Number 5
TQ: Did you have a typical traditional fiddler background?
"Yes and no. I think I have gone into way, way, way more detail than most people in my learning. I started at 10 and up to about 16 I was in the system, going to Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann in Ballinteer for lessons. I was very lucky with certain teachers. I had Michael Tubridy teaching me flute, Phelim O’Reilly in Clontarf teaching me fiddle. I had pipes as well. Joe Doyle was teaching me pipes. They were hugely inspirational. But in terms of goals and aims and peers it was Comhaltas. So the aim is to win an All Ireland, to go on a Comhaltas tour, and so on. It’s very narrow and the way you judge music is really narrow in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. At 16 something made me realise that nobody was teaching the thing that mattered, the difference between music that lifts your heart and music that doesn’t, which is the thing that makes life worth living."
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Ionannas, I've lost posts in my browser too in the past, so what I do now with a lengthy post is to type it first in Notepad, and then copy and paste it into TheSession.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
i think random notes extract explains it pretty well jusa nutter eejit. comhaltas are very narrow minded in terms of what caoimhin says there.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Point made.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Bracket, if you will, the entirety of what I say here with the disclaimer "in my opinion". Not even so much a considered opinion, but some un-digested thoughts, posted for what they're worth.
The question is not so much about whether one is "allowed", in the tradition, to be an indvidual, or whether the tradition should constrain someone's free spirit to a cage of standardised tines played in time-tested settings and shackeled together in their sets. I don't think anyone would consider Tommy Peoples to be "out of the tradition" but I defy anyone to play the way he does. It's his thing, it's beautiful, and it's completely traditional.
So what is it about the Ivers performance - about her entire style - that brings this question up?
Here's a speculation: it's the way in which she innovates. Her innovations are based on trad tunes, and she certainly has a tremendous command of trad techniques, but she plays in a way that is removed from the traditional context. Trad tunes, have two native environments: the session, and the dance. I'm absolutely certain that if Ivers turns up at a session, she doesn't do what she does in that clip, and I'm sure she's wonderful to play with,
BUT
what she does on her records and in her performances could not be played in either a session or a dance without clearing the room. Contrast that with a "traditional innovator" like Peoples. What he's doing might be difficult to play with or to dance to - he plays fast, and he's wondrous tricky - but his playing would be at home in either the session or the dance.
Playing for the dance is subordinating yourself to the purpose of the dance, playing in the session is subordinating yourself to the one big tune that you're all playing together (that sounds too mystical, but this is undigested thought...) - notice that guitars, bodhrans, and hippies with digiridon'ts are all obnoxious when they fail on this, and welcome when they succeed. Within that framework, people have plenty of room to shine, be it by a nice twist on the tune here and there, or a good drive, good phrasing, we can hear a personal touch and appreciate it, but when it distracts from the whole, from the purpose of the endeavor, it's annoying and we want it to stop.
If Ivers showed up at a session and played that wonderful fantasy on Julia Delaney, we'd want her to stop - but even McMahon agreed, insisted even, that it was a wonderful piece of music.
So there's something, maybe to think about on tradition and innovation. Tradition and innovation are not opposed at all, but if you want to claim some piece of the tradition you have to respect what constitutes that tradition.
Now, here's another thought. How traditional is what Comhaltas does?
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
If ITM Innovation needs to be well founded on a basis of Tradition then surely there is a place for a Comhaltas (or similar) as part of that base or foundation stone. I Am not getting into any discussions about the politics or other aspects of the hieracrchy of CCE and make no comment about the relative merit of how it is all run.
But to innovate in the tradition you need to be steeped in it first. People have argued that some of the judging at Fleadhs is inhibitive of innovation but the judges are only human and have likes/dislikes - its a rotten job.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Donough
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Yep, like any job that puts you up their in the limelight..means everyone can take pot shots! I wonder does their pay reflect that? I doubt it.
I think they have done wonderful things for the music but like everything there are always 2 sides , a good and a not so good. Its clear that a strong character such as Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh is able to move on and build upon the foundation he got and I really admire him for that. He really hit the nail on the head with his point about music; << the difference between music that lifts your heart and music that doesn’t, which is the thing that makes life worth living.">>
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I've just had a quick squint at the video without the sound on (don't ask) and it looks like the same piece that was featured on the River of Sound tv series some years back.
If Eileen Ivers is playing a sort of Julia Delaney thing, it's definitiely the same piece. I liked it when I saw it originally, but now it just reminds me of something else I saw on tv even longer ago - dancers from the Royal School of Ballet doing Morris. Technically impressive, but didn't look like the "real thing".
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by DavyR
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I've watch the two videos posted.
Innovation? Would someone point it out?
I'm sorry I don't see it here. This sounds as if it were slapped together at last minute. Eileen's fiddle sounded terrible and with Tommy having trouble staying together with Eileen? Where is the respect for the music? From a Trad. prospective I can understand why Tony said what he did.
I don't see innovation musically. I see trad players trying to do something different at whim and last minute. As for the dancer, free form dance for 30 seconds (If that) then in to traditional dance and maybe a little tap?
(I know nothing about dance).
As for Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin example. The idea is good (Bouzuoki) but gave no credit to those individual's who built it and adapted for Irish music.
I think respectful innovation is:
Planxty
Bothy Band
Donal Lunny's work over the past 20 years.
Shuan Davey
Sean O'Raida
I'm sure there is a bit more but can't recall..
Innovation in traditional music should be thought out and presented with respect. I don't think this was.
Davydd - great post. I would love to see innovation that is cultural, progressive and tasteful.
Regards
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by madfluter
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
Although I'm not crazy about some of the direction she takes the innovation part, I very much respect her as a player. I didn't have any problems with her intonation. I'm not a fiddler, but no matter. Some of the best fiddling I've ever heard strays far from perfect pitch. If you listen to Appalachian fiddlers, they sometimes purposefully stray into weird subtleties with regards to intonation.
Also… this debate about innovation has been going on for at least 30 years now. Yet there are more traditional players around now than ever. Granted there is also heaps of players who don't understand the basics, but I really don't think Irish trad music is going extinct.
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by StephenR
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
I hate these discussions that treat the music as if it was a zero sum game, as if every Celtic Woman CD sold is one less solo accordion player CD sold, as if folks that dip into the tradition for inspiration are somehow cheapening it if they borrow from it without hewing to every nuance of the tradition.
The music is strong enough to survive on its own merits. Innovators make the tent bigger, and actually help reinvigorate the tradition by bringing new people into the fold. If you don't like it, don't listen to it, but don't tear it down because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions of what good music is. It would be a sad world if only a few people's idea of good music ruled what was available or what was played. And I can think of dozens of innovators that I have seen in session settings who do just fine playing the pure drop, but like to do other things as well. The fact that they are versatile and open to new ideas and styles does not make them some sort of vile traitors that should be shunned.
It is a big world out there, open your minds a bit........
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Tradition vs. Innovation
There's an extract from Tony MacMahon's memoir in the latest issue of JMI which gives some idea of the background which shaped his ideas on music. http://thejmi.com/
Toner Quinn
Editor, JMI
# Posted on February 23rd 2009 by CIC