On another thread I saw someone post their disdain for guitar strummers. I also got a wry comment from a teacher a year or so back about my own strumming to accompany a tune. I've also heard many people say you can't hear guitar very well in the company of fiddles and banjos unless you use heavy strings and strum it hard.
So what I'd like to hear is the variety of opinions on why guitarists shouldn't strum in favor of arpeggios or vice-versa? What makes you accept or not accept a guitar in a session???
I don't think its a matter of strumming vs. arpeggios...
A single guitar played badly, unlike many other session instruments, has the ability to completely destroy a session.
In my experience, unfortunately, many of the guitar players who show up at our sessions don't understand the music, they don't know the melodies, they don't know or understand the harmonic structure of this music, and they don't know session etiquette. They really don't know what they don't know and proceed to bash away on the wrong chords with the wrong rhythms. They unmindfully destroy the music and are not welcomed by the other players. And sadly, often times, they have no idea why.
Then there are the players who do understand the music, who do know the melodies, who understand how to back the rhythms and know the modes the tunes are in. Some play in a rhythmic strumming style, some play arpeggios. They know how loud their instruments are and actively listen and adapt to the number and volumes of the instruments they are backing. They understand the role of a backup instrument is to paint the acoustic background, not be in the front of the sound. They are valued and welcomed.
Michael says it all. I played guitar for ages before virtually giving it up for 10 years to concentrate on melody. I've recently picked it up again, thinking it would be quite good to be able to do a bit of accompaniment, and I can tell you it ain't that easy! Don't imagine that if there's some chords written down with the tune that you just need to strum them, because they're going to kill the subtlety of the melody. I think good advice for guitarists is, go for the minimalist approach, but hold back a bit. And if there's already three guitarists, stay at the bar and have a drink. I do like good guitar accompaniment though, and I also think that there's a place for the guitar playing tunes too.
Yep, Michael nailed it. One thing to add is that chords or any kind of harmonic accompaniment, by definition, set the flavor of the tune. But these melodies aren't so cut and dry. Played well, this music is full of modal ambiguity. So full that, for many melody players, this is one of its most endearing qualities. A guitar instantly erases that quality.
I regularly play with a guitarist who has worked very hard for many years to back this music in an informed, sensitive way, and she's the first to admit that she still has a lot to learn. I thoroughly enjoy playing this music with her. But I also enjoy those times when she takes a break to visit with friends and the tunes can be heard without any added "color" imposed on them. Too many guitarists think they are *always* doing the music a favor by adding harmonic color. The reverse is true--less is more.
To paraphrase the old joke about bagpipes:
A gentleman is one who can play guitar, but doesn't.
Our local sessions used to be full of strummers of varying skills, but they seem to be lying low at the moment, or perhaps have found other outlets.
We are fortunate to have a few very talented guitaristsin the neighbourhood, and when more than one turns up at a session, they quickly agree amongst themselves who should be the designated player. All of them play other instruments.
Like RichardB, I played guitar for many years (for song accompaniment), but I would not dream of taking a guitar to a session. One session leader, who likes to have a guitarist/singer present, often has to call out the chord changes while playing, whereas many others would probably just resort to a frosty glare.
As a guitar player myself, I have seen many other guitar players who:
1) do not take the time to listen to the tunes.
2) do not take the time to learn the tunes.
3) do not listen to advice from other players, especially melody players.
So, here is my take on guiatr players, in general, and by best advice.
1) Take the time to listen to the players at any session you attend. Listen to how people play, get an understanding of the dynamics of the session. DO NO HARM TO THE MUSIC. If you don't know a tune, do not play. If you are trying to figure out a tune, play very quietly.
2) Learn the melodies. I play the melodies for maybe 30 or 40 tunes. It makes me a better backer because I understand the structure of the tune and how it is played and when to emphasize a chord. I often start a tune off with a fiddle player harmonizing with me, and then kick in with chords at the start of the B part.
3) Strumming is fine, but not the only thing a guitar player should be doing. Know when to strum. As a backer, you need to leave space open for the melody instruments. Mix base runs in with picking certain notes to emphasize what the melody players are doing. Sometimes playing on the base strings in more supportive of the melody players than stumming a chord. When all you do is strum, you cannot listen to what the melody players are doing.
4) Practice, practice, practice. Learn to vary your strumming patterns, vary them through the tune, same with chord choices, vary them as well. Your job as a backer is to support the melody and make the sound more interesting and varied by choosing chords and strumming patterns that vary, yet stay in the background.
5) Solicit feedback from the melody players and listen to the feedback you receive. You will run into trad players that do not like guitars no matter what, but most people will take the time to give good advice if you ask. But...if you ask, be prepared to take the feedback and try to improve as a result. Most of the musicians I play with have really helped me become a better player.
6) If there are other guitar players, make sure you are on the same page. There is nothing worse than multiple guitars all playing different chords during a tune. If you see a guitar player playing different chords, get with them to discuss how you are going to play the tunes, and which chords you are going to play.
Playing guitar in an Irish session, versus a band, is also an acquired skill. I gig regularly with a guitarist who has exceptional technique and knowledge of chord theory. I can play him a melody, and he will work up accompaniment that fits the rhythm nicely, has open chords (no third, ambiguous major/minor) in the right places, that sort of thing. Great for gigs, where the two of us are free to create our own unique sound. (Forgive us. We play to general audiences, need the money, and Pure Drop is a luxury we just can't afford, even if he were inclined that way.)
But because he has no particular desire to make his playing more "authentic," the few times he has played at an Irish session, eyebrows inveitably rise at some point--because he has thrown in some little rock or jazz type lick in a spot where a more traditionally grounded guitarist would not.
No big problem, because he doesn't aspire to be a good Irish-session guitarist, and we both know this. He leaves the session playing to me, and I don't pressure him to attend, because I know it's not really his thing.
Some guitarists', whom I have played with, are very good in other genres & then apply what they have learned while accompanying Irish tunes. Rhythm is one issue ~ what to do w/slides, slip jigs, even hornpipes . . . Listen to the rhythms being played in a given session. On any night you might hear all the rhythms or perhaps just a few.
Whether a guitarist or not it is important to listen to the tune version. This may be obvious, but consider this. A tune may be played one way if it is instrumental & then played quite differently for a singer. I don't mean changing the key to fit a singers' vocal range. It's more to do with making the words work with the melody (or is that vice versa?)
Off the top of my head I can think of 2 tunes which change when you have a singer ~ 'Rocky Road to Dublin' & 'Otter's Holt'
There are many more examples. If you learn tunes by accompanying a singer that may not work as well with melody players.
~ excuse the hijacking; this is my 1st cup of coffee.
following on mickray's post ~ gig vs session.
If you listen to what John Doyle plays in a gig w/ Liz Carroll it will, no doubt, be different from what he plays in a session.
My own situation is that I play both accompaniment and melody styles on guitar. I also play tenor banjo. Invariably I find that accompanists who play well "know the tune". Quite often they play one of the melody instruments as well as guitar. When I'm playing guitar back up at a session if I'm not familiar with the tune I stop playing, listen, and learn. I just don't understand a lot of guitarists approach to music at all. Many of them seem to just find a key and play along. Thank God they're not aircraft engineers!!
I often throw on a CD and go to a tune or set I'm not familiar with and play/strum along with it in the privacy of my own studio before attempting to back it up at a session.
I have now read through this thread 4 x's (please don't ask me why). This topic is a regular feature of the forum & will come up again. I strongly believe the question was answered adequately in the 1st response ~ by Michael Eskin.
Fishmonger, what happened ~ you couldn't get Dervish to play in cloverdale? stock up on Heineken next time. enjoy the show in Davis ;)
+A single guitar played badly, unlike many other session instruments, has the ability to completely destroy a session+
The thing that gets lost in these discussions is that several guitars, played well, can also ruin a session.
It's not really about technique at all (from the listener's point of view) , it's about volume and clarity. That is, the volume and clarity of the melody.
if that is obscured, then the guitarist needs to leave more space
What is even worse imo is a strummer who also sings - typically a ballad with 20+ interminable verses. But, looking on the bright side, it's good business for the bar
Funny you should say that Tony as i know a real aircraft engineer whose a talented trad player, backer and singer who really does know his stuff inside out
yawn. These arguments about guitar are starting to sap my spirit. When is someone going to start discussing the technical
points of playing the guitar in sessions instead of bagging
the instrument. There are some great players on this site, even on this thread ( Tony O'Rourke for instance). When are we going to exchange ideas about PLAYING instead of all the negative stuff. I could really get into hearing about other peoples harmonic and rhythmic ideas for particular tunes . Someone start a thread.
One of the reasons why some melody-only players bash the guitar is that they don't do backing and therefore have a limited understanding of what are the challenges and possibilities for the guitar. For example, many times I have asked a flute or violin player what key a tune they propose to play is in, and I've gotten dumbfounded looks instead of a simple answer like
"A Major " or D Modal". When this happens, if I don't recognize the tune, then I just listen. Of course, that is fine. However, What's wrong with the melody players learning something about harmony and what a chord is? Why is it always the guitarists need to learn the melody - (which I am fine with by the way)? Why can't all melody players learn about chordal accompaniment and how to recognize what key a tune is in.
I know that many melody-only players do understand the concept of keys, but I've sometimes been astonished when being told by a competent musician that they do not know what key or keys a tune is in.
I would say that using fingerstyle, bass runs, etc is great for song accompaniments, but would be inappropriate for session playing as it will cut across (and therfore damage) the melody.
And as others have already commented above, the best session guitarists are those who know the melodies.
With regard to using guitar for accompaniment at sessions etc. you might possibly find my website of some interest:
Agree SWFL, and let us as well acknowledge how boring the
fiddle, flute (ugh) , pipes, banjo for instances can be unaccompanied. Why does Martin have Dennis there? It couldn't possibly be for looks. Besides, most fiddle players need accompanists to assist them to play in tune, especially the ones that are failed guitar players. They publicly denounce
those who had the willpower to continue with their former instrument Mr Speaker.
Hon. Member for Fairfield . C. Slim M.L.A>
We have on the odd occasion been joined in our session by a very nice fiddle player. Trouble is this lad insists on playing his fiddle along with about 90% of the stuff we play. Sad to say he only knows about 3% of the tunes we play but busks along as if he knows every note. ....Ye Gods if only I had the guts to say "If you don't know the fecking tune, don't play the fecking tune....But I'm much to nice to do that!!!!!! Give me a guitar player any day, even a poor one.
yawn. These arguments about guitar are starting to sap my spirit. When is someone going to start discussing the technical
points of playing the guitar in sessions instead of bagging
the instrument. There are some great players on this site, even on this thread ( Tony O'Rourke for instance). When are we going to exchange ideas about PLAYING instead of all the negative stuff. I could really get into hearing about other peoples harmonic and rhythmic ideas for particular tunes . Someone start a thread.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by chuneboi slim
The point of my question and this thread is to do just that.
Some answers have been fantastic(Michael) others not so much.
As someone who plays guitar all the time and struggles along on the whistle I do tend to feel that backing is easier. On the other hand melody players are only expected to play the tunes they already know. The expectation tends to be that a good backer should be able to accompany anything.
Ultimately the guitar is one of the most flexible instruments going able to fit in to a huge variety of genres and dominate. I would love to play in a huge range of styles and for a variety of genres but, as with most folk there tends to be the habit of focussing in on one particular technique or style.
Ultimately pick what you think sounds best and run with it. If you can master that style then it is going to contribute to the sound whether you are strumming, playing arpegios, melody or counter-melody.
Hey Mix - nice site.
BTW, upon thinking about it, "Its My Party" has some interesting changes - a little Modal stuff, an augmented chord (in the bridge), and some kind of 2-5-1 turnaround.
I liked your description of the three types of guitarists. I'm working on going directly from Type 1 to Type 3.
The MP3 lessons are definitely worth a listen (strum along!) and I recommend spending the very reasonable price of admission for the PDF "books" that accompany them.
Now I have read through the thread 6 x's. There is clearly some guitar bashing
& I am weary of that trend. I keep going back to Michael's post & do not read it as being negative toward the guitar. To me it is the starting point for accompaniment.
Here are a select few cut & paste lines which I consider to be a good foundation. [Michael/ Will/ Tony]
". . . there are the players . . . who do know the melodies . . . They know how loud their instruments are and actively listen and adapt to the number and volumes of the instruments they are backing."
" . . . any kind of harmonic accompaniment . . . set(s) the flavor of the tune. . . this music is full of modal ambiguity. . . for many melody players, this is one of its most endearing qualities."
"Invariably I find that accompanists who play well * know the tune * . . . When I'm playing guitar back up at a session if I'm not familiar with the tune I stop playing, listen, and learn."
Fishmonger, I think your question concerns how to use harmony to accompany those tunes which are very rich & complex in their melody. Does one take the path of less is more ~ Dennis Cahill or * listen to all these chords * ~ John Doyle? Not a bad question. I hope over the next few weeks some guitarists' start posting their approach. Tony already began. I think I remember Joel McDermott posting his take on this.
As for me I am responding because I frequently play with a guitarist, outside of session, & we have great fun. I don't play guitar & this is the reason I have not imposed my approach to that type of harmonization. There are some good backers (here) who can be much more helpful than myself.
oh maan, im sorry if im offending anyone but john doyle fries my brain - and not in a good way. He seems to be one of the most unsensitive backers out there. Gime Daithi Sproule any day - im thinking Tommy Peoples Iron Man, anyone with me?
Frankly, a guitarist that doesn't necessarily know the melodies, but has a good idea of how to accompany the tune is usually in a good place.
A guitarist at a session doesn't have to do anything spectacular, but as long as they pay attention to the changes and adapt, things are usually okay.
Over the summer, I visited Kilarney, and attended a Sliabh Luachra session, and there was a guitarist that could barely follow the changing rhythms of the music, whether they be jigs and reels or polkas and slides (oh, dear. those are bothersome). Regardless, that guitarist continued to play, and even though his chords were correct, his rhythms were overlooked.
Chord progression is another thing. Something that some guitarists don't understand is that Irish music is a living, organic thing. Stuff can change in the middle of a session. Not only that, but people play tunes with different accidentals (particularly with mix tunes). A tune off the top of my head would be the King of the Pipers. I've heard that tune been played by Paddy Glackin, Jimmy Keane, Devin Shepherd, Damien Mullane, and they all play it differently. A guitarist (or any accompanist for that matter) as to quickly identify the situation, and apply themselves to it.
But a session is a session; experiments can take place, change can be made.
Yeah, John Doyle gets my vote too. You feel like he's contributing. It's a proper duet, not some pointless tinkering in the background. The idea that he's insensitive is utterly preposterous
Yes, as Llig says, it's a proper duet, not just a great player and a 'backer'. I have probably listened to 'In Play' more than any other CD since I was a teenager and I can still hear new things every time I play it. The attention to detail is fantastic.
'Yeah, and Liz Carroll must also have zero sensitivity because she chooses to work with him so much! LOL!'
...gw I hate that kind of reasoning. Its reminiscent of 'jig'
If you look at who John Doyle plays with and the style of music they play, you learn a lot about the people who've posted here.
I'm with Vocal on this one.
I just think its funny, LIz is a top player, so is John, being knocked by anonymous people on the internet who may not even have a few tunes to scratch together, says far more about the knockers than the players IMO
The MP3 lessons are definitely worth a listen (strum along!) and I recommend spending the very reasonable price of admission for the PDF "books" that accompany them.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by gw
THANKS GW! That's a great resource. Something I've been looking for for quite a while.
Tony, thank you for putting those lessons online. You have a new customer.
I had to believe there was no right/wrong answer to my initial question. And certainly taste will contribute to each individuals answer. Some of the replies were even surprising, especially one coming from a certain regular on the mustard board. LOL
When I listen to "Masters of the Irish Guitar" I hear a wide variety of styles that I would think would fit well in a session. It seems to merely depend on the style and tastes of the session players.
Anyway, I'm grateful for all who replied. For those of you who are locals to me. Rest assured that I will not bring my guitar to your session... yet.
Ionannas: "I just think its funny, LIz is a top player, so is John, being knocked by anonymous people on the internet who may not even have a few tunes to scratch together, says far more about the knockers than the players IMO"
Never a truer word spoken in all the years this site has been running!
I think people should be able to critique an artist and have preferences of one over another, without it being necessary for them to be on the same artistic level in order to comment. Of course, when people throw around stuff like “so-and-so is sh!te” then it does reveal an idiot at work. Because nobody makes it in the music business, especially our obscure little corner, without dedication and talent. Even bluidy Celtic Women, damn me.
John Doyle is truly amazing, and most of his playing I love. But it’s a strong spice that I’m not always in the mood for.
I had the good fortune to take a workshop from Dáithí Sproule and Randal Bays, and it was really an ear opener to hear them play together, and then separately. When Dáithí played Kid on the Mountain solo, you absolutely knew what tune it was, even strummed in DADGAD.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, Tony, but I hear on your mp3s TWO guitars, one strumming chords, another flatpicking single note melody lines. I think treble string single notes get lost in most sessions, or worse, turn into plectrum-on-strings white noise. Bass runs with strums carry better. The whole nylon string manouche picking is something I’d love to hear more about, though. Not that sessions are the be-all end-all of traditional Irish music, but that is the purpose of this website.
We are all entitled to opinions of course, they expressed theirs [although vocals comment was not clearly an opinion.>>He seems to be one of the most unsensitive backers<<] and I expressed mine? thats fine too.. yes? That is one of the reasons we are here is it not? to express our opinions, to learn and help others out. Of course the reality is that some opinions are going to be highly unwelcome and some opinions are going to be ignored or mocked[by those that like doing that kind of thing]. Thats the way of it.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions Kenny and I recognise that John Doyle's playing is not to everybody's taste although personally I think it is brilliant.
As I said in my previous post one of the joys of the guitar is that it is very flexible and as such can produce a broad range of sounds and styles even in trad ITM folk accompaniment.
I would never (I hope) turn round on a public web forum and attack any musician's playing as it just seems a little rude and, whilst I am sure John Doyle, Tim Edey and everyone else who has been attacked on here in recent times (and going back) are big enough to take the criticism I know I wouldn't like to read some anonymous person's public attack on me online.
Anyway, leaving aside this particular example it is true that there isn't half a big pile of ill-informed rubbish spoken on here a lot of the time in amongst the gems of wisdom.
"Are "Vocal" and "Hugo" not to be permitted to have their own opinions, then ?"
Sure they are, except for El Presidente stating that my rhetorical comment was reminiscent of jig. Them's fighting words! No, el senor Chavez, my Liz Carroll quip was rather poignant, even if I do say so myself. *wink wink*
That said, not liking an obviously top notch player's backing style is quite different than dissing said player for a lack of *sensitivity.* To echo the inimitable words of llig, *The idea that he's insensitive is utterly preposterous!*
Fishmonger, I don't know if you have seen this book;
"Celtic Back-Up
For All Instrumentalists"
by Chris Smith
I was just reading through it & he discusses many of the ideas mentioned on this thread. I have noticed his posts on the forum ~ in a good way. For what it is worth here is a page on Chris' website. http://coyotebanjo.com/music-70.html
Fishmonger, I don't know if you have seen this book;
"Celtic Back-Up
For All Instrumentalists"
by Chris Smith
I was just reading through it & he discusses many of the ideas mentioned on this thread. I have noticed his posts on the forum ~ in a good way. For what it is worth here is a page on Chris' website. http://coyotebanjo.com/music-70.html
He lays out a 15 point plan for accompanying a tune. The tricky bit for accompanying Irish dance music? It's always tricky! except for point #15
No, Random_notes. I haven't seen that book before.
It does come with a CD which is good. I'll have something to listen to.
No, Random_notes. I haven't seen that book before.
It does come with a CD which is good. I'll have something to listen to.
Ok - I'm crap. I've never said I'm good. That's not the point. It's never been the point. So you're Liz being a top player etc crap, is AGAIN redundant here.
If one doesn't have an opinion, everyone would all be listening to the same thing, by the same musician, in the same style - ha - It's just dawned on me - maybe that's what some people want?? Think about that one for a sec. It's all making sense...
For the record. I don't like that style of music - 'top notch', deadly, energetic etc - so what. Give me Mick O'Grady and Alec Finn any day, and p*ss off.
I learned backing the way I like it played. Now, when I play a guitar, thats the way I back.
I agree you can't say JD style is un-sensitive. But in the name of jaysus - look who he plays with!!??? Would he back Brian Conway like that? I hope not. I'd imagine his style would be very different - In fact I'd hope it.
We all have opinions thats great, but I've heard enough insensitive guitarists to know that John is not one of them!
As far as ability goes, it is relevant in a number of ways IMO, educated opinions , say the opinion of Liz, bear more weight to me than the opinions of a teen who thinks flogging molly is great trad!. I dont know you and your opinion differs from mine and from people I respect and admire such as Liz... but you are welcome to express it if course! .
I find backing a distraction from the fiddler or box player, I certainly feel it has a very important role to play in trad, Sessions in particular, I too am a backer sometimes .
For the record I would rather listen to the old boys like Paddy Murphy playing in their kitchen but i respect others rights to enjoy flogging molly
I have not heard the CD '1st Through the Gate' by Brian Conway. http://www.brianconway.com/abouttunes.html
It might be interesting to hear the opinion of someone who has heard the recording. In particular tracks 5, 11 & 14 w/John Doyle.
I like what fidkid said about John Doyle, a strong spice not to everyone's taste. And if you don't like it, don't try to get it banned from the grocery store, or talk about how bad it is, just don't eat it.
Mr Doyle has done some nice sensitive accompaniment behind a lot of singers and players, in addition to the more percussive style he is most known for. And like many say, he is more of a duet player than an accompanist.
One person who has impressed me lately with tasteful backing that is very unobtrusive, but very complementary to what is going on in the foreground is young Donal Clancy. And young Matt Heaton out of Boston is very good too, blending very nicely with the melody (I happen to be listening to him on the radio right now, on WURI, the college station in Kingston, RI).
Some good stuff and good ideas on this thread, in addition to the usual "grump grump it stinks" grouchiness!!!!!!
why is strumming so bad???
why is strumming so bad???
On another thread I saw someone post their disdain for guitar strummers. I also got a wry comment from a teacher a year or so back about my own strumming to accompany a tune. I've also heard many people say you can't hear guitar very well in the company of fiddles and banjos unless you use heavy strings and strum it hard.
So what I'd like to hear is the variety of opinions on why guitarists shouldn't strum in favor of arpeggios or vice-versa? What makes you accept or not accept a guitar in a session???
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I don't think its a matter of strumming vs. arpeggios...
A single guitar played badly, unlike many other session instruments, has the ability to completely destroy a session.
In my experience, unfortunately, many of the guitar players who show up at our sessions don't understand the music, they don't know the melodies, they don't know or understand the harmonic structure of this music, and they don't know session etiquette. They really don't know what they don't know and proceed to bash away on the wrong chords with the wrong rhythms. They unmindfully destroy the music and are not welcomed by the other players. And sadly, often times, they have no idea why.
Then there are the players who do understand the music, who do know the melodies, who understand how to back the rhythms and know the modes the tunes are in. Some play in a rhythmic strumming style, some play arpeggios. They know how loud their instruments are and actively listen and adapt to the number and volumes of the instruments they are backing. They understand the role of a backup instrument is to paint the acoustic background, not be in the front of the sound. They are valued and welcomed.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Michael says it all. I played guitar for ages before virtually giving it up for 10 years to concentrate on melody. I've recently picked it up again, thinking it would be quite good to be able to do a bit of accompaniment, and I can tell you it ain't that easy! Don't imagine that if there's some chords written down with the tune that you just need to strum them, because they're going to kill the subtlety of the melody. I think good advice for guitarists is, go for the minimalist approach, but hold back a bit. And if there's already three guitarists, stay at the bar and have a drink. I do like good guitar accompaniment though, and I also think that there's a place for the guitar playing tunes too.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by RichardB
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Yep, Michael nailed it. One thing to add is that chords or any kind of harmonic accompaniment, by definition, set the flavor of the tune. But these melodies aren't so cut and dry. Played well, this music is full of modal ambiguity. So full that, for many melody players, this is one of its most endearing qualities. A guitar instantly erases that quality.
I regularly play with a guitarist who has worked very hard for many years to back this music in an informed, sensitive way, and she's the first to admit that she still has a lot to learn. I thoroughly enjoy playing this music with her. But I also enjoy those times when she takes a break to visit with friends and the tunes can be heard without any added "color" imposed on them. Too many guitarists think they are *always* doing the music a favor by adding harmonic color. The reverse is true--less is more.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: why is strumming so bad???
To paraphrase the old joke about bagpipes:
A gentleman is one who can play guitar, but doesn't.
Our local sessions used to be full of strummers of varying skills, but they seem to be lying low at the moment, or perhaps have found other outlets.
We are fortunate to have a few very talented guitaristsin the neighbourhood, and when more than one turns up at a session, they quickly agree amongst themselves who should be the designated player. All of them play other instruments.
Like RichardB, I played guitar for many years (for song accompaniment), but I would not dream of taking a guitar to a session. One session leader, who likes to have a guitarist/singer present, often has to call out the chord changes while playing, whereas many others would probably just resort to a frosty glare.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by oldstrings
Who do you love...?
The light touch or the heavy.
Dennis Cahill vs. John Doyle?
I am of the Cahill persuasion....
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by David Levine
Re: why is strumming so bad???
John Doyle AND Donogh Hennessey
And that's why I ask.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
As a guitar player myself, I have seen many other guitar players who:
1) do not take the time to listen to the tunes.
2) do not take the time to learn the tunes.
3) do not listen to advice from other players, especially melody players.
So, here is my take on guiatr players, in general, and by best advice.
1) Take the time to listen to the players at any session you attend. Listen to how people play, get an understanding of the dynamics of the session. DO NO HARM TO THE MUSIC. If you don't know a tune, do not play. If you are trying to figure out a tune, play very quietly.
2) Learn the melodies. I play the melodies for maybe 30 or 40 tunes. It makes me a better backer because I understand the structure of the tune and how it is played and when to emphasize a chord. I often start a tune off with a fiddle player harmonizing with me, and then kick in with chords at the start of the B part.
3) Strumming is fine, but not the only thing a guitar player should be doing. Know when to strum. As a backer, you need to leave space open for the melody instruments. Mix base runs in with picking certain notes to emphasize what the melody players are doing. Sometimes playing on the base strings in more supportive of the melody players than stumming a chord. When all you do is strum, you cannot listen to what the melody players are doing.
4) Practice, practice, practice. Learn to vary your strumming patterns, vary them through the tune, same with chord choices, vary them as well. Your job as a backer is to support the melody and make the sound more interesting and varied by choosing chords and strumming patterns that vary, yet stay in the background.
5) Solicit feedback from the melody players and listen to the feedback you receive. You will run into trad players that do not like guitars no matter what, but most people will take the time to give good advice if you ask. But...if you ask, be prepared to take the feedback and try to improve as a result. Most of the musicians I play with have really helped me become a better player.
6) If there are other guitar players, make sure you are on the same page. There is nothing worse than multiple guitars all playing different chords during a tune. If you see a guitar player playing different chords, get with them to discuss how you are going to play the tunes, and which chords you are going to play.
Good Luck, Fishmonger!
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Playing guitar in an Irish session, versus a band, is also an acquired skill. I gig regularly with a guitarist who has exceptional technique and knowledge of chord theory. I can play him a melody, and he will work up accompaniment that fits the rhythm nicely, has open chords (no third, ambiguous major/minor) in the right places, that sort of thing. Great for gigs, where the two of us are free to create our own unique sound. (Forgive us. We play to general audiences, need the money, and Pure Drop is a luxury we just can't afford, even if he were inclined that way.)
But because he has no particular desire to make his playing more "authentic," the few times he has played at an Irish session, eyebrows inveitably rise at some point--because he has thrown in some little rock or jazz type lick in a spot where a more traditionally grounded guitarist would not.
No big problem, because he doesn't aspire to be a good Irish-session guitarist, and we both know this. He leaves the session playing to me, and I don't pressure him to attend, because I know it's not really his thing.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by John Galt
Re: why is strumming so bad???
The big problem is not so much the guitarists who strum three chords, and get them right:
It's the ones who strum two chords, and get them wrong.
I have heard both sorts, that is how I know...
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by nicholas
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Some guitarists', whom I have played with, are very good in other genres & then apply what they have learned while accompanying Irish tunes. Rhythm is one issue ~ what to do w/slides, slip jigs, even hornpipes . . . Listen to the rhythms being played in a given session. On any night you might hear all the rhythms or perhaps just a few.
Whether a guitarist or not it is important to listen to the tune version. This may be obvious, but consider this. A tune may be played one way if it is instrumental & then played quite differently for a singer. I don't mean changing the key to fit a singers' vocal range. It's more to do with making the words work with the melody (or is that vice versa?)
Off the top of my head I can think of 2 tunes which change when you have a singer ~ 'Rocky Road to Dublin' & 'Otter's Holt'
There are many more examples. If you learn tunes by accompanying a singer that may not work as well with melody players.
~ excuse the hijacking; this is my 1st cup of coffee.
# Posted on February 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
following on mickray's post ~ gig vs session.
If you listen to what John Doyle plays in a gig w/ Liz Carroll it will, no doubt, be different from what he plays in a session.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
My own situation is that I play both accompaniment and melody styles on guitar. I also play tenor banjo. Invariably I find that accompanists who play well "know the tune". Quite often they play one of the melody instruments as well as guitar. When I'm playing guitar back up at a session if I'm not familiar with the tune I stop playing, listen, and learn. I just don't understand a lot of guitarists approach to music at all. Many of them seem to just find a key and play along. Thank God they're not aircraft engineers!!
I often throw on a CD and go to a tune or set I'm not familiar with and play/strum along with it in the privacy of my own studio before attempting to back it up at a session.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I have now read through this thread 4 x's (please don't ask me why). This topic is a regular feature of the forum & will come up again. I strongly believe the question was answered adequately in the 1st response ~ by Michael Eskin.
Fishmonger, what happened ~ you couldn't get Dervish to play in cloverdale? stock up on Heineken next time. enjoy the show in Davis ;)
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
+A single guitar played badly, unlike many other session instruments, has the ability to completely destroy a session+
The thing that gets lost in these discussions is that several guitars, played well, can also ruin a session.
It's not really about technique at all (from the listener's point of view) , it's about volume and clarity. That is, the volume and clarity of the melody.
if that is obscured, then the guitarist needs to leave more space
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Bren
Re: why is strumming so bad???
What is even worse imo is a strummer who also sings - typically a ballad with 20+ interminable verses. But, looking on the bright side, it's good business for the bar
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Funny you should say that Tony as i know a real aircraft engineer whose a talented trad player, backer and singer who really does know his stuff inside out
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by hungry grass
Re: why is strumming so bad???
As soon as I posted I knew there would be someone somewhere who knew an aircraft engineer who plays really good back up guitar!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: why is strumming so bad???
yawn. These arguments about guitar are starting to sap my spirit. When is someone going to start discussing the technical
points of playing the guitar in sessions instead of bagging
the instrument. There are some great players on this site, even on this thread ( Tony O'Rourke for instance). When are we going to exchange ideas about PLAYING instead of all the negative stuff. I could really get into hearing about other peoples harmonic and rhythmic ideas for particular tunes . Someone start a thread.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Hey chuneboi, I threw in "ambiguous major/minor chords in the right places"--what do you expect, from a fiddler?
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by John Galt
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Exactly that mickray! Thankyou for reinforcing my worst nightmares about fiddle players.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Lol. Chuneboi... you know we're not all that bad. You are in a band with 2 of them.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by davydd
Re: why is strumming so bad???
One of the reasons why some melody-only players bash the guitar is that they don't do backing and therefore have a limited understanding of what are the challenges and possibilities for the guitar. For example, many times I have asked a flute or violin player what key a tune they propose to play is in, and I've gotten dumbfounded looks instead of a simple answer like
"A Major " or D Modal". When this happens, if I don't recognize the tune, then I just listen. Of course, that is fine. However, What's wrong with the melody players learning something about harmony and what a chord is? Why is it always the guitarists need to learn the melody - (which I am fine with by the way)? Why can't all melody players learn about chordal accompaniment and how to recognize what key a tune is in.
I know that many melody-only players do understand the concept of keys, but I've sometimes been astonished when being told by a competent musician that they do not know what key or keys a tune is in.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by halfwaythere
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Hey lazyhound - I'll have to report your comment to A.D.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Fishmonger -
I would say that using fingerstyle, bass runs, etc is great for song accompaniments, but would be inappropriate for session playing as it will cut across (and therfore damage) the melody.
And as others have already commented above, the best session guitarists are those who know the melodies.
With regard to using guitar for accompaniment at sessions etc. you might possibly find my website of some interest:
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Your pick can do two things, it can strum and it can pick. Why limit yourself? Why not use all your tools?
The same strummity strum throughout a whole tune or set or tunes is tedious and boring.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Or buy a bouzouki and go into the light . . .
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: why is strumming so bad???
SWFL - just because you have several "tools" available, it doesn't necessariy mean that you should use them.
On fiddle, would you use vibrato at a session?
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Agree SWFL, and let us as well acknowledge how boring the
fiddle, flute (ugh) , pipes, banjo for instances can be unaccompanied. Why does Martin have Dennis there? It couldn't possibly be for looks. Besides, most fiddle players need accompanists to assist them to play in tune, especially the ones that are failed guitar players. They publicly denounce
those who had the willpower to continue with their former instrument Mr Speaker.
Hon. Member for Fairfield . C. Slim M.L.A>
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: why is strumming so bad???
We have on the odd occasion been joined in our session by a very nice fiddle player. Trouble is this lad insists on playing his fiddle along with about 90% of the stuff we play. Sad to say he only knows about 3% of the tunes we play but busks along as if he knows every note. ....Ye Gods if only I had the guts to say "If you don't know the fecking tune, don't play the fecking tune....But I'm much to nice to do that!!!!!! Give me a guitar player any day, even a poor one.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: why is strumming so bad???
yawn. These arguments about guitar are starting to sap my spirit. When is someone going to start discussing the technical
points of playing the guitar in sessions instead of bagging
the instrument. There are some great players on this site, even on this thread ( Tony O'Rourke for instance). When are we going to exchange ideas about PLAYING instead of all the negative stuff. I could really get into hearing about other peoples harmonic and rhythmic ideas for particular tunes . Someone start a thread.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by chuneboi slim
The point of my question and this thread is to do just that.
Some answers have been fantastic(Michael) others not so much.
Thank you for the input everyone.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
PS - I play melody on mandolin.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
PS PS - Melody is WAAAAY easier than backing.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
As someone who plays guitar all the time and struggles along on the whistle I do tend to feel that backing is easier. On the other hand melody players are only expected to play the tunes they already know. The expectation tends to be that a good backer should be able to accompany anything.
Ultimately the guitar is one of the most flexible instruments going able to fit in to a huge variety of genres and dominate. I would love to play in a huge range of styles and for a variety of genres but, as with most folk there tends to be the habit of focussing in on one particular technique or style.
Ultimately pick what you think sounds best and run with it. If you can master that style then it is going to contribute to the sound whether you are strumming, playing arpegios, melody or counter-melody.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Hey Mix - nice site.
BTW, upon thinking about it, "Its My Party" has some interesting changes - a little Modal stuff, an augmented chord (in the bridge), and some kind of 2-5-1 turnaround.
I liked your description of the three types of guitarists. I'm working on going directly from Type 1 to Type 3.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by tomw
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Hey Chris,
Have you checked out Tony O'Rourke's Irish Guitar podcast?
(He's the Tony who's posting in this thread)
http://www.irishguitarpod.com/
The MP3 lessons are definitely worth a listen (strum along!) and I recommend spending the very reasonable price of admission for the PDF "books" that accompany them.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by GDub
When tune met harmony . . . continued
Now I have read through the thread 6 x's. There is clearly some guitar bashing
& I am weary of that trend. I keep going back to Michael's post & do not read it as being negative toward the guitar. To me it is the starting point for accompaniment.
Here are a select few cut & paste lines which I consider to be a good foundation. [Michael/ Will/ Tony]
". . . there are the players . . . who do know the melodies . . . They know how loud their instruments are and actively listen and adapt to the number and volumes of the instruments they are backing."
" . . . any kind of harmonic accompaniment . . . set(s) the flavor of the tune. . . this music is full of modal ambiguity. . . for many melody players, this is one of its most endearing qualities."
"Invariably I find that accompanists who play well * know the tune * . . . When I'm playing guitar back up at a session if I'm not familiar with the tune I stop playing, listen, and learn."
Fishmonger, I think your question concerns how to use harmony to accompany those tunes which are very rich & complex in their melody. Does one take the path of less is more ~ Dennis Cahill or * listen to all these chords * ~ John Doyle? Not a bad question. I hope over the next few weeks some guitarists' start posting their approach. Tony already began. I think I remember Joel McDermott posting his take on this.
As for me I am responding because I frequently play with a guitarist, outside of session, & we have great fun. I don't play guitar & this is the reason I have not imposed my approach to that type of harmonization. There are some good backers (here) who can be much more helpful than myself.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
oh maan, im sorry if im offending anyone but john doyle fries my brain - and not in a good way. He seems to be one of the most unsensitive backers out there. Gime Daithi Sproule any day - im thinking Tommy Peoples Iron Man, anyone with me?
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: why is strumming so bad???
>>A note on the topic
Frankly, a guitarist that doesn't necessarily know the melodies, but has a good idea of how to accompany the tune is usually in a good place.
A guitarist at a session doesn't have to do anything spectacular, but as long as they pay attention to the changes and adapt, things are usually okay.
Over the summer, I visited Kilarney, and attended a Sliabh Luachra session, and there was a guitarist that could barely follow the changing rhythms of the music, whether they be jigs and reels or polkas and slides (oh, dear. those are bothersome). Regardless, that guitarist continued to play, and even though his chords were correct, his rhythms were overlooked.
Chord progression is another thing. Something that some guitarists don't understand is that Irish music is a living, organic thing. Stuff can change in the middle of a session. Not only that, but people play tunes with different accidentals (particularly with mix tunes). A tune off the top of my head would be the King of the Pipers. I've heard that tune been played by Paddy Glackin, Jimmy Keane, Devin Shepherd, Damien Mullane, and they all play it differently. A guitarist (or any accompanist for that matter) as to quickly identify the situation, and apply themselves to it.
But a session is a session; experiments can take place, change can be made.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by got_zouk
Re: why is strumming so bad???
"...john doyle fries my brain - and not in a good way. He seems to be one of the most unsensitive backers out there...."
Yeah, and Liz Carroll must also have zero sensitivity because she chooses to work with him so much! LOL!
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by GDub
Re: why is strumming so bad???
John Doyle is my favourite trad guitarist. To me his understanding of the tunes and sensitivity is second to none.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by bogman
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Yeah, John Doyle gets my vote too. You feel like he's contributing. It's a proper duet, not some pointless tinkering in the background. The idea that he's insensitive is utterly preposterous
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by ...
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Hat trick for John Doyle - brilliant
Just take a listen to "In Play" to see (sorry, hear) what I mean
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/index/search?name=carroll&search_start=0
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by domhnall.
Re: why is strumming so bad???
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1728
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by domhnall.
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Oh Jesus....
I can't stand his backing. Awful.
Just horrible.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Yes, as Llig says, it's a proper duet, not just a great player and a 'backer'. I have probably listened to 'In Play' more than any other CD since I was a teenager and I can still hear new things every time I play it. The attention to detail is fantastic.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by bogman
Re: why is strumming so bad???
'Yeah, and Liz Carroll must also have zero sensitivity because she chooses to work with him so much! LOL!'
...gw I hate that kind of reasoning. Its reminiscent of 'jig'
If you look at who John Doyle plays with and the style of music they play, you learn a lot about the people who've posted here.
I'm with Vocal on this one.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: why is strumming so bad???
No, all you can can learn is what they're tastes are.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by bogman
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I just think its funny, LIz is a top player, so is John, being knocked by anonymous people on the internet who may not even have a few tunes to scratch together, says far more about the knockers than the players IMO
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: why is strumming so bad???
mix, chuneboi, the question was, why is strumming so bad?
It's not when used in addition to picking, bass runs, etc., I'm pretty much summing up what everyone was saying.
You both may now also misread this post and get all bent out of shape. Proceed!
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Hey Chris,
Have you checked out Tony O'Rourke's Irish Guitar podcast?
(He's the Tony who's posting in this thread)
http://www.irishguitarpod.com/
The MP3 lessons are definitely worth a listen (strum along!) and I recommend spending the very reasonable price of admission for the PDF "books" that accompany them.
# Posted on February 15th 2009 by gw
THANKS GW! That's a great resource. Something I've been looking for for quite a while.
Tony, thank you for putting those lessons online. You have a new customer.
I had to believe there was no right/wrong answer to my initial question. And certainly taste will contribute to each individuals answer. Some of the replies were even surprising, especially one coming from a certain regular on the mustard board. LOL
When I listen to "Masters of the Irish Guitar" I hear a wide variety of styles that I would think would fit well in a session. It seems to merely depend on the style and tastes of the session players.
Anyway, I'm grateful for all who replied. For those of you who are locals to me. Rest assured that I will not bring my guitar to your session... yet.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Ionannas: "I just think its funny, LIz is a top player, so is John, being knocked by anonymous people on the internet who may not even have a few tunes to scratch together, says far more about the knockers than the players IMO"
Never a truer word spoken in all the years this site has been running!
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: why is strumming so bad???
http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by John Galt
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Are "Vocal" and "Hugo" not to be permitted to have their own opinions, then ?
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Kenny
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I think people should be able to critique an artist and have preferences of one over another, without it being necessary for them to be on the same artistic level in order to comment. Of course, when people throw around stuff like “so-and-so is sh!te” then it does reveal an idiot at work. Because nobody makes it in the music business, especially our obscure little corner, without dedication and talent. Even bluidy Celtic Women, damn me.
John Doyle is truly amazing, and most of his playing I love. But it’s a strong spice that I’m not always in the mood for.
I had the good fortune to take a workshop from Dáithí Sproule and Randal Bays, and it was really an ear opener to hear them play together, and then separately. When Dáithí played Kid on the Mountain solo, you absolutely knew what tune it was, even strummed in DADGAD.
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, Tony, but I hear on your mp3s TWO guitars, one strumming chords, another flatpicking single note melody lines. I think treble string single notes get lost in most sessions, or worse, turn into plectrum-on-strings white noise. Bass runs with strums carry better. The whole nylon string manouche picking is something I’d love to hear more about, though. Not that sessions are the be-all end-all of traditional Irish music, but that is the purpose of this website.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by fidkid
Re: why is strumming so bad???
We are all entitled to opinions of course, they expressed theirs [although vocals comment was not clearly an opinion.>>He seems to be one of the most unsensitive backers<<] and I expressed mine? thats fine too.. yes? That is one of the reasons we are here is it not? to express our opinions, to learn and help others out. Of course the reality is that some opinions are going to be highly unwelcome and some opinions are going to be ignored or mocked[by those that like doing that kind of thing]. Thats the way of it.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions Kenny and I recognise that John Doyle's playing is not to everybody's taste although personally I think it is brilliant.
As I said in my previous post one of the joys of the guitar is that it is very flexible and as such can produce a broad range of sounds and styles even in trad ITM folk accompaniment.
I would never (I hope) turn round on a public web forum and attack any musician's playing as it just seems a little rude and, whilst I am sure John Doyle, Tim Edey and everyone else who has been attacked on here in recent times (and going back) are big enough to take the criticism I know I wouldn't like to read some anonymous person's public attack on me online.
Anyway, leaving aside this particular example it is true that there isn't half a big pile of ill-informed rubbish spoken on here a lot of the time in amongst the gems of wisdom.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: why is strumming so bad???
"Are "Vocal" and "Hugo" not to be permitted to have their own opinions, then ?"
No, el senor Chavez, my Liz Carroll quip was rather poignant, even if I do say so myself. *wink wink*
Sure they are, except for El Presidente stating that my rhetorical comment was reminiscent of jig. Them's fighting words!
That said, not liking an obviously top notch player's backing style is quite different than dissing said player for a lack of *sensitivity.* To echo the inimitable words of llig, *The idea that he's insensitive is utterly preposterous!*
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by GDub
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Fishmonger, I don't know if you have seen this book;
"Celtic Back-Up
For All Instrumentalists"
by Chris Smith
I was just reading through it & he discusses many of the ideas mentioned on this thread. I have noticed his posts on the forum ~ in a good way. For what it is worth here is a page on Chris' website.
http://coyotebanjo.com/music-70.html
Fishmonger, I don't know if you have seen this book;
"Celtic Back-Up
For All Instrumentalists"
by Chris Smith
I was just reading through it & he discusses many of the ideas mentioned on this thread. I have noticed his posts on the forum ~ in a good way. For what it is worth here is a page on Chris' website.
http://coyotebanjo.com/music-70.html
He lays out a 15 point plan for accompanying a tune. The tricky bit for accompanying Irish dance music? It's always tricky! except for point #15
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
as if I haven't said enough already.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
No, Random_notes. I haven't seen that book before.
It does come with a CD which is good. I'll have something to listen to.
No, Random_notes. I haven't seen that book before.
It does come with a CD which is good. I'll have something to listen to.
LOL Thanks.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
LOL Thanks.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Ok - I'm crap. I've never said I'm good. That's not the point. It's never been the point. So you're Liz being a top player etc crap, is AGAIN redundant here.
If one doesn't have an opinion, everyone would all be listening to the same thing, by the same musician, in the same style - ha - It's just dawned on me - maybe that's what some people want?? Think about that one for a sec. It's all making sense...
For the record. I don't like that style of music - 'top notch', deadly, energetic etc - so what. Give me Mick O'Grady and Alec Finn any day, and p*ss off.
I learned backing the way I like it played. Now, when I play a guitar, thats the way I back.
I agree you can't say JD style is un-sensitive. But in the name of jaysus - look who he plays with!!??? Would he back Brian Conway like that? I hope not. I'd imagine his style would be very different - In fact I'd hope it.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: why is strumming so bad???
We all have opinions thats great, but I've heard enough insensitive guitarists to know that John is not one of them!
As far as ability goes, it is relevant in a number of ways IMO, educated opinions , say the opinion of Liz, bear more weight to me than the opinions of a teen who thinks flogging molly is great trad!. I dont know you and your opinion differs from mine and from people I respect and admire such as Liz... but you are welcome to express it if course! .
I find backing a distraction from the fiddler or box player, I certainly feel it has a very important role to play in trad, Sessions in particular, I too am a backer sometimes .
For the record I would rather listen to the old boys like Paddy Murphy playing in their kitchen but i respect others rights to enjoy flogging molly
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Ionannas, are saying I'm a teen??? LOL
I only ask because I've mentioned how much I enjoy Flogging Molly before on this board.
FYI - I never said FM was a great trad band. I said they were a great rock-n-roll band.
AND I'm 43 years old! I'll try not to be too insulted.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I have not heard the CD '1st Through the Gate' by Brian Conway.
http://www.brianconway.com/abouttunes.html
It might be interesting to hear the opinion of someone who has heard the recording. In particular tracks 5, 11 & 14 w/John Doyle.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
LOL sorry fella I didnt realise! just a random example.. maybe you subliminally put the name in my head!
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Heads up folks... Paddy Murphy, In good hands, Field recordings WWW.|CelticCrossings.com
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: why is strumming so bad???
http://www.celticcrossings.com/index.html
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Just posted by "Floss the Tethers" - could add to the debate.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/3256
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Kenny
Re: why is strumming so bad???
Kenny, if you're still there have you listened to the Brian Conway CD '1st Through the Gate'?
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/362
November 22nd 2002 by Jon Kiparsky
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I listened to the Brian Conway one.
Its the same stuff. Dampy dampy, similar chord progressions, only slower. I did prefer that though.
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: why is strumming so bad???
No, I haven;t, Jon - is it special ?
# Posted on February 18th 2009 by Kenny
Re: why is strumming so bad???
I like what fidkid said about John Doyle, a strong spice not to everyone's taste. And if you don't like it, don't try to get it banned from the grocery store, or talk about how bad it is, just don't eat it.
Mr Doyle has done some nice sensitive accompaniment behind a lot of singers and players, in addition to the more percussive style he is most known for. And like many say, he is more of a duet player than an accompanist.
One person who has impressed me lately with tasteful backing that is very unobtrusive, but very complementary to what is going on in the foreground is young Donal Clancy. And young Matt Heaton out of Boston is very good too, blending very nicely with the melody (I happen to be listening to him on the radio right now, on WURI, the college station in Kingston, RI).
Some good stuff and good ideas on this thread, in addition to the usual "grump grump it stinks" grouchiness!!!!!!
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by AlBrown