Hey, I am a longtime mandolin player. I've pretty much perfected my techniques and have learned i decent number of tunes over the years. I feel like its time to starts something new.
My friend has been playing fiddle for over a decade, and he has always loved the mandolin. He has been begging me to teach him how to play it, and I agreed on the one condition that in return, he teach me how to play the fiddle.
I don't want to give up the mandolin. In fact, I think that knowing both instruments will help me improve in both. I just want to try out the fiddle and see where I go with it. As I already know my tunes, modes, ornamentation, improv, etc. I expect that to make it easier. I'm just wondering what to expect to be completely different? Any tips on bowing would help as well.
Also, on the subject of the fiddle itself - I have a cheap violin:
Carlos Robelli
Violmaster
model number p-103 4/4
I picked it up from Sam Ash a few years ago for about 350 USD and its in perfect condition. I know it isn't ideal, but considering my fragile financial state (I'm a student), will this fiddle suffice for now?
I have a friend who is a mandolin player who decided to take up the fiddle a few years ago, and for someone who doesn't practice much, he's pretty good at it. If he put in the time and got someone to work with him on learning the fine points of bowing, he would be fantastic. I suspect he thought that he would be able to pick it up as easily as mandolin and guitar and whistle and all the other instruments he plays, but it hasn't quite turned out that way; fiddle is much more demanding than he expected. He still wants to do it, but he knows now that to get anywhere with it, he'll have to commit to spending more time with it, and possibly taking lessons.
How does your friend like your bow? A good bow can make playing a lot easier, if you have one that's balanced and tracks well.
I'm in a similar position to yourself - beginning on fiddle after many years of playing the mandolin and tenor banjo.
Here are my findings, based on my experience so far:
1) Intonation. You have to get used to getting your left fingers in exactly the right position without the help of frets. Unless you are gifted with perfect pitch, it may be helpful (at first) to have a an electronic tuner attached and enabled, which will alow you to constantly check your intonation as you play.
1) Bowing. Bowing direction is not necessarily always the same as plectrum direction for the same tune on a mandolin. This is actually a hinderance if you already know lots of tunes. For this reason, it may be helpul to start out with tunes that you never learned on the mandolin.
Mix, it didn't work that way for me. When I picked up fiddle (30 years ago), I was already playing banjo, mandolin, and guitar at the time. I didn't spend less time on those instruments--I just added more time playing music, on fiddle. The more I played, the better I got on all those instruments.
John, even if your friend turns out to be a great fiddle teacher (being able to play and being able to teach are two different things), check out the Todd Ehle instructional videos here: http://www.fiddlercove.org/ (Todd's videos are linked in the box on the left margin). Excellent vids on everything you need to know--how to hold the bow, bow hand flexibility, intonation, etc. Yes, it comes from a violin professor, but the same techniques and concepts apply to fiddling and will help you play well.
(And if your friend turns out to be not-so-good a teacher, find a really good teacher instead, even if you can afford only one lesson a month.)
To answer kennedy's question, the bow is total trash. Cracked near the frog. I'll definately have to buy a new one. Any advice on that? And do you think the fiddle is OK (for now)?
Mix, I actually do have perfect pitch, so that might help. I can find the notes pretty easily and Ive noticed that hitting high notes is a lot easier on fiddle, than mandolin.
Oh, and as I am a student right now, I really have a lot of time on my hands. I expect that for at least for the next 3 years, I'll have enough time to practice both instruments sufficiently. Do you think that's long enough to get up to an intermediate level on the fiddle?
Well, you'll need a good bow, for sure. Stay away from the fiberglass ones and the Incredibows. A lot of people like the carbon fiber bows, especially because they're good value for the money, and that might be a good solution for you. I prefer wood ones myself because I like the sound better, but it's all subjective---it's whatever you like and feels comfortable to you.
The only way to find a bow you like is to try lots of them. You'll have a hard time doing this now, so see if you can get your friend to go bow shopping with you. There are also lots of threads here on thesession about bows, so do a search and you'll find some excellent advice.
Oh boy, I hope I haven't started an argument...Ionannas, I don't have an Incredibow, but a friend let me try his a few times, and I found that it had an awfully screechy kind of a sound, almost sour, if you can describe a sound that way.
More to the point, for a beginner, I don't think an Incredibow is a good idea because a) it's so much lighter than a normal bow, and b) it's not possible to adjust the tension on the hair---both of these are radically different from the way a normal bow feels and behaves, and I don't see how it could have a positive effect on technique development. I'm sure many will disagree, but I wouldn't recommend one to a beginner as his primary bow. As a second bow, for sessions or travelling, sure.
Will - that approach might work for those who have loads of time to devote to playing music - but not everyone has got that much time available. And I would still say that initially you would be better on fiddle after spending (say) 4 hours practising it, than you would if you spent two hours playing mandolin and only two on fiddle.
And you say "30 years" ago. Maybe you were quite young then? Being young helps with fast learning.
Johhny C - your "perfect pitch" will certainly help. That would just leave you with the bow direction / plectrum direction differences to deal with.
Getting a good teacher (preferably a "fiddle" teacher, rather than a violin teacher) is really good advice. Even one lesson a month will stop you aquiring bad playing habits, which you may find difficult to correct, one you've developed them!
Fair enough Kennedy. The incredibow takes a while to get used to so I dont think its fair to condemn it out of hand without spending time with it, but I appreciate your other points re beginners.
I always take my IB as back up, but I understand how its behaviour could be off-putting. I find it brings a lot of volume and edge to my fiddles. So is great for a dull fiddle but too much for an 'edgy' yoke.
IMO buying a bow is fraught with difficulty even more so for a beginner, how do you know what you want? However I am still using my first bow I bought as a beginner, but I paid several hundred pounds for it ,second hand, from a reputable dealer.
IMO half of the story is getting familiar with your gear.
I think with any gear it takes a while to get used to . look at software as a prime example.We see people making music with all sorts of old equipment and they make great stuff, because their mind is not occupied with figuring out how it works, Its familiar, an old friend, not the best in the world, but we love it, and we know it well.
So for the poster, spend as much as you can on your bow, get a good one from a reputable shop, try them all and get one that feels right to you... Well It worked for me
I want to second Will's recco for the Todd Ehle videos.
A lot of teachers, books, etc, will give you these instructions such as "keep a loose wrist". They can seem sort of arbitrary and confusing out of context.
Todd's videos demonstrate what you actually are trying to accomplish with the various elements of technique. For example, he shows how a supple wrist lets you change bow direction cleanly without creating audible artifacts.
I too moved from Mandolin to Tenor Banjo, before MOVING UP to the Fiddle!
At first I kept playing the Banjo at Sessions, while scraping away on the Fiddle at home.
However I'd say, as soon as you are fit to take the Fiddle out to Sessions, give up the Banjo & put all your efforts into the Fiddle.
You say "pretty much perfected my techniques", on the Mandolin, so for a start, you can always go back to it & easily take up where you left off.
However, more importantly, you will find that you will never ever PERFECT your techniques on the Fiddle.
That is one of the joys of Fiddle playing, you are always learning.
There are a million & one tiny, tiny subtle things going on in Fiddle playing that set it in a completely different league from Mandolin playing.
You are about to start a wonderful & fascinating journey.
John, how does this perfect pitch work?you can identify an individual note? or that note in relation to others? both? Does a note that is not a perfect interval stand out to you? how does this work with a tempered scale?
I second Will's findings about playing other instruments. I used to worry that time spent practising the fiddle was time stolen from the guitar. However, I've found that practising the fiddle is very beneficial for my guitar playing. The fingers get a great workout, intonation improves and sense of melody improves. I just need to spend a little time on the guitar to go over some specific "guitaristic" things like string bending, open string runs and that kind of thing.
It's a bit like speaking another language. You get a different perspective on music. One instrument sort of feeds off the other.
Oh, and I definitely would not advise you to attach an electronic tuner to your fiddle. Sorry if that sounds old fashioned but you must develop your ear when learning the fiddle. It's all part of the process and relying on an artificial aid will slow it down. Check your intonation with the open strings.
In addition to upgrading the bow, change to better strings than the ones your Robelli came with. (Maybe Helicores?) You'd be suprised how much better good strings will make an inexpensive fiddle sound.
"Todd's videos demonstrate how a supple wrist lets you change bow direction cleanly without creating audible artefacts."
Is this not a classical thing? Surely, one of the differences with diddley music is that you want a little scratchy crunchy thing when you change direction, you want it to be audible.
Anyway, it's a learning curve not having or wanting to change bow direction with every note. You will naturally want to "single bow" the tunes and getting the knack of where to slur will be new to you.
There are three ways to go about learning this:
- 1. Single bow the notes and decide which specific ones to slur, or rather, which specific notes to not to accent.
- 2. Learn bowing patterns
- 3. Try to play whole long phrases with just one long bow stroke. Then you can decide which specific notes you want to accent.
3 has many many advantages over 1 & 2.
Discard 2 right away, Each tune and every phrase have their own shifting patterns, it's counterproductive to put a straight jacket on them.
3 has the advantage of making you decide where the accents are. Trying to think of where the accents aren't is not nearly as easy.
And 3 will force you to use left hand articulation. The most simple being when you have two notes, the same note, next to each other, differentiate with a little flick of the next finger up. You should be articulating with the left hand right from the start.
Michael I was just giving an example of how technique supports musical aims. Maybe I could have chosen a better example.
I am inclined to agree with you that a good bit of grit fits well with diddly music. But wouldn't you agree that the amount of grit in your bowing is a knob that an experienced player can dial to the desired level? It's good to have the gamut of options available. Tommy Peoples can sound sweet or crunchy depending on what his muse dictates at the moment...
My own experiences led me to the conclusion that if you are going to go it alone, knowing your way around the mandolin fretboard is a good start. I started out playing mandolin and, because the fretboard corresponds in size to the fiddle, I already had basic left hand positioning for the fiddle which allowed me to focus more upon bowing. And as for the ear, it should be already there if you've played (and tuned!) another instrument before.
After 27 years of fiddle playing I occasionally will pick up the mando for old times sake or to chug out chords, but have never regretted the change over to fiddle.
I started on mandolin also and I speek from experience with my advice above. Having a rake of tunes to play with on the fiddle was really such a help in keeping up the interest in practicing.
But it was the bowing that really did my nut in. It was just all too much for my brain to think about. And it was only when I strripped it back to not using the bow at all that it realy started to fall into place. I found it very hard to think of where should slur, but very easy to simply let the music show me where I should accent.
I find one of the toughest things right now is making the bow stroke
stop exactly where I mentally want to stop it. This is easy on wind
instruments. But the bow has a mind of its own.
Umm... when you first start out "learning" how to play, I say just start with a stupid student bow. You may not get the sound you want, but it still plays the notes. And then after a while, you can get "The One" after you know what you want. Almost any violin will do. (I can already see all the flack coming from this comment.)
As a fiddler of 45yrs and a sometime mandolin player, I have to tell you - forget your left (fingering) hand. Fiddlin is ALL about the bow/hand.
Firstly I agree with those above banging on about a good bow. A good bow will make a bad fiddle (sound) good and visa versa. Spend whatever you can afford and then 25% more.
Eileen a Rún with it's simplist of melody and easy bowing - with only 3 slurs in the 2nd part is a tune I reach it to ALL levels. If I get my hands on a new bow/fiddle it's the first thing I'll practice. It has ALL the elements a fiddler needs until s/he hits triplets. Then the trick is to start at the top of the bow and get it right. Then practice an inch or two lower and so fourth untill one can make good clear tripplets (r-hand)even to the frog.
Unfortunatly in my experience going from mandolin t fiddle is NOT the right way to do things- sorry.
Peter
Something I've learned that has helped a lot is to keep your bow hand very relaxed. If you think of a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is a stranglehold on your bow, you should always be a one. (Learned from James Kelly.)
Also, you don't have to use much bow. If you can learn to play lightly, you'll be able to add whatever dynamics you want. That's something people with a heavy bow hand miss out on.
A heavy bow hand will wear out the bow hair that much quicker.
L/H fingering will be a lot easier if you have a low action. New, cheap(ish) fiddles tend to have an action that is far too high; this. coupled with cheap solid metal core strings. makes hard work for the beginner - and the more experienced player, if it comes to that. It's an easy job for a fiddle repairer to lower the bridge, but don't try it yourself unless you know exactly what to do and how to do it.
With a low action you'll be able to finger a note on the string with very little effort, which makes for a relaxed left hand and speed when required. The strings will last longer, too.
Let me see if I've got all this:
1. I should stick with the fiddle I have now, because at this level, a new one won't make much of a difference.
2. I should spend some coin on a decent bow (my friend suggested a "carbondix") because this IS going to make a big difference.
3. I should get some new strings and get the action lowered (right now I have red label strings).
4. I should concentrate on bowing techniques (this is gonna kill me...I know it already).
Oh, and in regards to the "perfect pitch" I claimed - What I meant by that was that I can notice if a note is out-of-tune by ear. Whether its my instrument, someone else's, or a recording, I can hear when a note is off without having to relate it to other notes.
Also, I have gotten to the point of playing-by-ear where I have memorized the fretboard. I can whistle tunes I've never heard before by looking at the tabs, and I can learn tunes in my head first, then pick up the mandolin and play them on the first go. These things are already helping me learn the left hand on the fiddle. It's just the right that scares me.
Johnny, that is not perfect pitch. That is just the normal skill that a
Trad musician has.
Perfect pitch is the ability to tell the name of the note
without looking when somebody else is playing it on any other instrument.
For example, the ability to tell whether the note is an B or an Bb when
someone plays it on a piano in the room next door.
Perfect pitch - most experienced musicians, for example, will know if their instrument is off-pitch without reference to a tuner because over time they've subconsciously memorized the A-440 pitch they've heard or used when tuning up. But there is a comparatively rare form of perfect pitch that is a real nuisance; it is so engrained that hearing any music that is tuned only a few cents pitch off A-440 (for example) becomes a literally painful experience, and the sufferer can't ignore it and can do nothing about it. The aforesaid experienced players who "know" the A-440 pitch from experience aren't in this category.
Oh, I guess I don't have it then. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be able to name most of the notes if i DID see the fretboard, I just never learned them. Now if I hear a tune/song I can identify what key and mode its in just by listening to it...I don't know if that still counts?
lazyhound,
"literally painfull experience" is exactly what it is. It even makes Sunday mass unbearable sometimes. Its a double-edged sword. It helps me when I play music and sometimes kills me when I listen to it. Its like having a high alcohol tolerance - it helps you get through the night, but it doesn't help your wallet very much, haha.
There's one very important part of bowing that should be mentioned, and that is controlling the bow so that it is parallel to the bridge and at right angles to the strings. If it is not parallel then it will tend to drift out of alignment towards the bridge or the fingerboard. Either way, this movement of the bow along the length of the string will introduce unwanted noise into the tone, will generate a poor tone anyway (the string won't be vibrating as it should), and makes the bow more difficult to control. Unless it's one of those rare occasions where it's being done deliberately for a special effect or for virtuoso bowing of 4-part chords, this drifting of the bow indicates a measure of stiffness in the bowing hand and wrist. .This stiffness inhibits bow control, tone production, and left-hand/bow coordination, as well as causing muscular tiredness.
When learning to bow parallel to the bridge the standard advice is to watch yourself in a mirror. So you've got to find yourself a mirror of the right size in a convenient place. Ok, you do that, but then a subtle psychological problem arises. You're looking at your mirror image and immediately there is an extra layer of cognitive processing the brain has to do to get your hand to control the bow in the opposite direction to what you're seeing in the mirror. The beginner eventually learns to do this, but there is another, simpler, method, that my teacher showed me, which does not require a mirror.
This method does not require any fingers on the strings; it is purely training for bow control. Hold the fiddle horizontally at waist level, just below the ribs, pointing more or less 45 degrees to the left. The fiddle rests in the palm of your left hand at the join of the back plate with the neck, the neck resting in the V between two of the fingers. The left hand holds the instrument firmly against your body, and that's all it does - you'll not be using the fingers. You should be looking down at the fiddle, which is about 18 inches away.
Place the middle of the bow on the A or D string halfway between the bridge and the fingerboard, parallel to the bridge. Looking down on it this is easy to see. With the thumb and first finger of your right hand hold the bow as lightly as you can at the frog end. The only weight on the string should be only that of the bow itself, with no weight contribution from the hand. Move the bow to your right so that the bow/string contact moves towards the point. You'll most probably find that the bow starts to drift away from parallel with the bridge. This is because there is stiffness in the bowing hand. When you first try to correct it you'll probably find you're making matters worse. Again, this is because you're subconsciously using muscular strength to control the direction of the bow, and this implies more stiffness somewhere in the bowing hand and wrist. The answer is to relax the hand and fingers even more, and when you achieve this then the bow will find its own path of least resistance which is always parallel to the bridge and at right-angles to the string.
When you've done this a few times from the middle of bow to the tip (usually the easiest) then try from the middle to the frog end, and from the frog to the middle. Then do whole bows in both directions, quite slowly with a steady tone.
The next stage is to add more fingers to the bow hold while achieving the same result.
Further stages:
1) faster bowing;
2) bigger sound by using relaxed weight of the hand.
If the bow starts to deviate from parallel in either of these stages, slow down and reduce the hand weight.
3) try it on the G-string, and then the E-string (you probably won't be able to use the full length of the bow on the E-string in this position).
4) you're doing everything right and it's working, so now move the fiddle halfway up your chest and repeat.
5) finally repeat the training at your normal shoulder-height playing position.
The advantages of this waist-level learning technique are that you're viewing the bow and fiddle "as is" and not as a mirror image, and you're also hearing the sound of the fiddle more as an audience or microphone would hear it. Don't forget that when you've got the fiddle under your chin you're hearing close-up a lot of high-frequency bow noise which doesn't travel far - the audience never hears it.
Another long and highly informative helpful post...
I found myself playing my fiddle the other day, spontaneously, holding the fiddle as a mandolin, bowing short rhythmic chords near the frog! never done that before.. A bit like medieval viol I think...
I switched from mandolin to fiddle 30 years ago. There is no comparison between playing the two instruments. Fiddle is a much more exacting and difficult.
The big mistake I made, when I was your age, was not to take lessons from a real violin teacher. I highly recommend this. You'll never regret it.
On Beginning Fiddle...
On Beginning Fiddle...
Hey, I am a longtime mandolin player. I've pretty much perfected my techniques and have learned i decent number of tunes over the years. I feel like its time to starts something new.
My friend has been playing fiddle for over a decade, and he has always loved the mandolin. He has been begging me to teach him how to play it, and I agreed on the one condition that in return, he teach me how to play the fiddle.
I don't want to give up the mandolin. In fact, I think that knowing both instruments will help me improve in both. I just want to try out the fiddle and see where I go with it. As I already know my tunes, modes, ornamentation, improv, etc. I expect that to make it easier. I'm just wondering what to expect to be completely different? Any tips on bowing would help as well.
Also, on the subject of the fiddle itself - I have a cheap violin:
Carlos Robelli
Violmaster
model number p-103 4/4
I picked it up from Sam Ash a few years ago for about 350 USD and its in perfect condition. I know it isn't ideal, but considering my fragile financial state (I'm a student), will this fiddle suffice for now?
Thanks in advance for any help!
-John
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Johnny Chicago
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
I have a friend who is a mandolin player who decided to take up the fiddle a few years ago, and for someone who doesn't practice much, he's pretty good at it. If he put in the time and got someone to work with him on learning the fine points of bowing, he would be fantastic. I suspect he thought that he would be able to pick it up as easily as mandolin and guitar and whistle and all the other instruments he plays, but it hasn't quite turned out that way; fiddle is much more demanding than he expected. He still wants to do it, but he knows now that to get anywhere with it, he'll have to commit to spending more time with it, and possibly taking lessons.
How does your friend like your bow? A good bow can make playing a lot easier, if you have one that's balanced and tracks well.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by kennedy
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Johnny C
I'm in a similar position to yourself - beginning on fiddle after many years of playing the mandolin and tenor banjo.
Here are my findings, based on my experience so far:
1) Intonation. You have to get used to getting your left fingers in exactly the right position without the help of frets. Unless you are gifted with perfect pitch, it may be helpful (at first) to have a an electronic tuner attached and enabled, which will alow you to constantly check your intonation as you play.
1) Bowing. Bowing direction is not necessarily always the same as plectrum direction for the same tune on a mandolin. This is actually a hinderance if you already know lots of tunes. For this reason, it may be helpul to start out with tunes that you never learned on the mandolin.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
One other point. I don't think that it help if you keep playing the mandolin as well.
Why?
The more time you spend playing the mandolin, the less time you will have available to practice the fiddle.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Mix, it didn't work that way for me. When I picked up fiddle (30 years ago), I was already playing banjo, mandolin, and guitar at the time. I didn't spend less time on those instruments--I just added more time playing music, on fiddle. The more I played, the better I got on all those instruments.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
John, even if your friend turns out to be a great fiddle teacher (being able to play and being able to teach are two different things), check out the Todd Ehle instructional videos here: http://www.fiddlercove.org/ (Todd's videos are linked in the box on the left margin). Excellent vids on everything you need to know--how to hold the bow, bow hand flexibility, intonation, etc. Yes, it comes from a violin professor, but the same techniques and concepts apply to fiddling and will help you play well.
(And if your friend turns out to be not-so-good a teacher, find a really good teacher instead, even if you can afford only one lesson a month.)
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Thanks for all the help so far!
To answer kennedy's question, the bow is total trash. Cracked near the frog. I'll definately have to buy a new one. Any advice on that? And do you think the fiddle is OK (for now)?
Mix, I actually do have perfect pitch, so that might help. I can find the notes pretty easily and Ive noticed that hitting high notes is a lot easier on fiddle, than mandolin.
Oh, and as I am a student right now, I really have a lot of time on my hands. I expect that for at least for the next 3 years, I'll have enough time to practice both instruments sufficiently. Do you think that's long enough to get up to an intermediate level on the fiddle?
Thanks,
John
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Johnny Chicago
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Well, you'll need a good bow, for sure. Stay away from the fiberglass ones and the Incredibows. A lot of people like the carbon fiber bows, especially because they're good value for the money, and that might be a good solution for you. I prefer wood ones myself because I like the sound better, but it's all subjective---it's whatever you like and feels comfortable to you.
The only way to find a bow you like is to try lots of them. You'll have a hard time doing this now, so see if you can get your friend to go bow shopping with you. There are also lots of threads here on thesession about bows, so do a search and you'll find some excellent advice.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by kennedy
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
What was the problem you found with your incredibow kennedy?
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Oh boy, I hope I haven't started an argument...Ionannas, I don't have an Incredibow, but a friend let me try his a few times, and I found that it had an awfully screechy kind of a sound, almost sour, if you can describe a sound that way.
More to the point, for a beginner, I don't think an Incredibow is a good idea because a) it's so much lighter than a normal bow, and b) it's not possible to adjust the tension on the hair---both of these are radically different from the way a normal bow feels and behaves, and I don't see how it could have a positive effect on technique development. I'm sure many will disagree, but I wouldn't recommend one to a beginner as his primary bow. As a second bow, for sessions or travelling, sure.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by kennedy
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Will - that approach might work for those who have loads of time to devote to playing music - but not everyone has got that much time available. And I would still say that initially you would be better on fiddle after spending (say) 4 hours practising it, than you would if you spent two hours playing mandolin and only two on fiddle.
And you say "30 years" ago. Maybe you were quite young then? Being young helps with fast learning.
Johhny C - your "perfect pitch" will certainly help. That would just leave you with the bow direction / plectrum direction differences to deal with.
Getting a good teacher (preferably a "fiddle" teacher, rather than a violin teacher) is really good advice. Even one lesson a month will stop you aquiring bad playing habits, which you may find difficult to correct, one you've developed them!
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Fair enough Kennedy. The incredibow takes a while to get used to so I dont think its fair to condemn it out of hand without spending time with it, but I appreciate your other points re beginners.
I always take my IB as back up, but I understand how its behaviour could be off-putting. I find it brings a lot of volume and edge to my fiddles. So is great for a dull fiddle but too much for an 'edgy' yoke.
IMO buying a bow is fraught with difficulty even more so for a beginner, how do you know what you want? However I am still using my first bow I bought as a beginner, but I paid several hundred pounds for it ,second hand, from a reputable dealer.
IMO half of the story is getting familiar with your gear.
I think with any gear it takes a while to get used to . look at software as a prime example.We see people making music with all sorts of old equipment and they make great stuff, because their mind is not occupied with figuring out how it works, Its familiar, an old friend, not the best in the world, but we love it, and we know it well.
So for the poster, spend as much as you can on your bow, get a good one from a reputable shop, try them all and get one that feels right to you... Well It worked for me
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
I want to second Will's recco for the Todd Ehle videos.
A lot of teachers, books, etc, will give you these instructions such as "keep a loose wrist". They can seem sort of arbitrary and confusing out of context.
Todd's videos demonstrate what you actually are trying to accomplish with the various elements of technique. For example, he shows how a supple wrist lets you change bow direction cleanly without creating audible artifacts.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by timmy!
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
I too moved from Mandolin to Tenor Banjo, before MOVING UP to the Fiddle!
At first I kept playing the Banjo at Sessions, while scraping away on the Fiddle at home.
However I'd say, as soon as you are fit to take the Fiddle out to Sessions, give up the Banjo & put all your efforts into the Fiddle.
You say "pretty much perfected my techniques", on the Mandolin, so for a start, you can always go back to it & easily take up where you left off.
However, more importantly, you will find that you will never ever PERFECT your techniques on the Fiddle.
That is one of the joys of Fiddle playing, you are always learning.
There are a million & one tiny, tiny subtle things going on in Fiddle playing that set it in a completely different league from Mandolin playing.
You are about to start a wonderful & fascinating journey.
I'd like to wish you the best of luck.
Enjoy!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
John, how does this perfect pitch work?you can identify an individual note? or that note in relation to others? both? Does a note that is not a perfect interval stand out to you? how does this work with a tempered scale?
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
I second Will's findings about playing other instruments. I used to worry that time spent practising the fiddle was time stolen from the guitar. However, I've found that practising the fiddle is very beneficial for my guitar playing. The fingers get a great workout, intonation improves and sense of melody improves. I just need to spend a little time on the guitar to go over some specific "guitaristic" things like string bending, open string runs and that kind of thing.
It's a bit like speaking another language. You get a different perspective on music. One instrument sort of feeds off the other.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Oh, and I definitely would not advise you to attach an electronic tuner to your fiddle. Sorry if that sounds old fashioned but you must develop your ear when learning the fiddle. It's all part of the process and relying on an artificial aid will slow it down. Check your intonation with the open strings.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
In addition to upgrading the bow, change to better strings than the ones your Robelli came with. (Maybe Helicores?) You'd be suprised how much better good strings will make an inexpensive fiddle sound.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by musicstudent
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
In addition to sage advice listed above - Go, Johnny, go!
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by drone
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
"Todd's videos demonstrate how a supple wrist lets you change bow direction cleanly without creating audible artefacts."
Is this not a classical thing? Surely, one of the differences with diddley music is that you want a little scratchy crunchy thing when you change direction, you want it to be audible.
Anyway, it's a learning curve not having or wanting to change bow direction with every note. You will naturally want to "single bow" the tunes and getting the knack of where to slur will be new to you.
There are three ways to go about learning this:
- 1. Single bow the notes and decide which specific ones to slur, or rather, which specific notes to not to accent.
- 2. Learn bowing patterns
- 3. Try to play whole long phrases with just one long bow stroke. Then you can decide which specific notes you want to accent.
3 has many many advantages over 1 & 2.
Discard 2 right away, Each tune and every phrase have their own shifting patterns, it's counterproductive to put a straight jacket on them.
3 has the advantage of making you decide where the accents are. Trying to think of where the accents aren't is not nearly as easy.
And 3 will force you to use left hand articulation. The most simple being when you have two notes, the same note, next to each other, differentiate with a little flick of the next finger up. You should be articulating with the left hand right from the start.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Michael I was just giving an example of how technique supports musical aims. Maybe I could have chosen a better example.
I am inclined to agree with you that a good bit of grit fits well with diddly music. But wouldn't you agree that the amount of grit in your bowing is a knob that an experienced player can dial to the desired level? It's good to have the gamut of options available. Tommy Peoples can sound sweet or crunchy depending on what his muse dictates at the moment...
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by timmy!
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
My own experiences led me to the conclusion that if you are going to go it alone, knowing your way around the mandolin fretboard is a good start. I started out playing mandolin and, because the fretboard corresponds in size to the fiddle, I already had basic left hand positioning for the fiddle which allowed me to focus more upon bowing. And as for the ear, it should be already there if you've played (and tuned!) another instrument before.
After 27 years of fiddle playing I occasionally will pick up the mando for old times sake or to chug out chords, but have never regretted the change over to fiddle.
Best of luck to ye.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by lednar
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
crazy, I completely agree.
I started on mandolin also and I speek from experience with my advice above. Having a rake of tunes to play with on the fiddle was really such a help in keeping up the interest in practicing.
But it was the bowing that really did my nut in. It was just all too much for my brain to think about. And it was only when I strripped it back to not using the bow at all that it realy started to fall into place. I found it very hard to think of where should slur, but very easy to simply let the music show me where I should accent.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
I find one of the toughest things right now is making the bow stroke
stop exactly where I mentally want to stop it. This is easy on wind
instruments. But the bow has a mind of its own.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Hup
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
do you mean stop in time? or stop at a particular position along its length?
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Umm... when you first start out "learning" how to play, I say just start with a stupid student bow. You may not get the sound you want, but it still plays the notes. And then after a while, you can get "The One" after you know what you want. Almost any violin will do. (I can already see all the flack coming from this comment.)
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Invincible
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Stop in time with exactly the right length of note - not too long, not too short. Also exactly the right gap between one stroke and the next.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Hup
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
that was a response to "Llig" by the way
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Hup
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
As a fiddler of 45yrs and a sometime mandolin player, I have to tell you - forget your left (fingering) hand. Fiddlin is ALL about the bow/hand.
Firstly I agree with those above banging on about a good bow. A good bow will make a bad fiddle (sound) good and visa versa. Spend whatever you can afford and then 25% more.
Eileen a Rún with it's simplist of melody and easy bowing - with only 3 slurs in the 2nd part is a tune I reach it to ALL levels. If I get my hands on a new bow/fiddle it's the first thing I'll practice. It has ALL the elements a fiddler needs until s/he hits triplets. Then the trick is to start at the top of the bow and get it right. Then practice an inch or two lower and so fourth untill one can make good clear tripplets (r-hand)even to the frog.
Unfortunatly in my experience going from mandolin t fiddle is NOT the right way to do things- sorry.
Peter
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Peter O'Connor
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Something I've learned that has helped a lot is to keep your bow hand very relaxed. If you think of a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is a stranglehold on your bow, you should always be a one. (Learned from James Kelly.)
Also, you don't have to use much bow. If you can learn to play lightly, you'll be able to add whatever dynamics you want. That's something people with a heavy bow hand miss out on.
Good luck!
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by nofrets
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
A heavy bow hand will wear out the bow hair that much quicker.
L/H fingering will be a lot easier if you have a low action. New, cheap(ish) fiddles tend to have an action that is far too high; this. coupled with cheap solid metal core strings. makes hard work for the beginner - and the more experienced player, if it comes to that. It's an easy job for a fiddle repairer to lower the bridge, but don't try it yourself unless you know exactly what to do and how to do it.
With a low action you'll be able to finger a note on the string with very little effort, which makes for a relaxed left hand and speed when required. The strings will last longer, too.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Well thanks for all the advice!
Let me see if I've got all this:
1. I should stick with the fiddle I have now, because at this level, a new one won't make much of a difference.
2. I should spend some coin on a decent bow (my friend suggested a "carbondix") because this IS going to make a big difference.
3. I should get some new strings and get the action lowered (right now I have red label strings).
4. I should concentrate on bowing techniques (this is gonna kill me...I know it already).
Oh, and in regards to the "perfect pitch" I claimed - What I meant by that was that I can notice if a note is out-of-tune by ear. Whether its my instrument, someone else's, or a recording, I can hear when a note is off without having to relate it to other notes.
Also, I have gotten to the point of playing-by-ear where I have memorized the fretboard. I can whistle tunes I've never heard before by looking at the tabs, and I can learn tunes in my head first, then pick up the mandolin and play them on the first go. These things are already helping me learn the left hand on the fiddle. It's just the right that scares me.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Johnny Chicago
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Johnny, that is not perfect pitch. That is just the normal skill that a
Trad musician has.
Perfect pitch is the ability to tell the name of the note
without looking when somebody else is playing it on any other instrument.
For example, the ability to tell whether the note is an B or an Bb when
someone plays it on a piano in the room next door.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Hup
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Perfect pitch - most experienced musicians, for example, will know if their instrument is off-pitch without reference to a tuner because over time they've subconsciously memorized the A-440 pitch they've heard or used when tuning up. But there is a comparatively rare form of perfect pitch that is a real nuisance; it is so engrained that hearing any music that is tuned only a few cents pitch off A-440 (for example) becomes a literally painful experience, and the sufferer can't ignore it and can do nothing about it. The aforesaid experienced players who "know" the A-440 pitch from experience aren't in this category.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Well done johnny, you got it in 4 ...
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Perfect pitch... what happens with quarter tones? like between A and Bb? how do they deal with A# and Bb? I'm just curious, and isn't it all relative?
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Hup,
Oh, I guess I don't have it then. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be able to name most of the notes if i DID see the fretboard, I just never learned them. Now if I hear a tune/song I can identify what key and mode its in just by listening to it...I don't know if that still counts?
lazyhound,
"literally painfull experience" is exactly what it is. It even makes Sunday mass unbearable sometimes. Its a double-edged sword. It helps me when I play music and sometimes kills me when I listen to it. Its like having a high alcohol tolerance - it helps you get through the night, but it doesn't help your wallet very much, haha.
-John
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Johnny Chicago
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
There's one very important part of bowing that should be mentioned, and that is controlling the bow so that it is parallel to the bridge and at right angles to the strings. If it is not parallel then it will tend to drift out of alignment towards the bridge or the fingerboard. Either way, this movement of the bow along the length of the string will introduce unwanted noise into the tone, will generate a poor tone anyway (the string won't be vibrating as it should), and makes the bow more difficult to control. Unless it's one of those rare occasions where it's being done deliberately for a special effect or for virtuoso bowing of 4-part chords, this drifting of the bow indicates a measure of stiffness in the bowing hand and wrist. .This stiffness inhibits bow control, tone production, and left-hand/bow coordination, as well as causing muscular tiredness.
When learning to bow parallel to the bridge the standard advice is to watch yourself in a mirror. So you've got to find yourself a mirror of the right size in a convenient place. Ok, you do that, but then a subtle psychological problem arises. You're looking at your mirror image and immediately there is an extra layer of cognitive processing the brain has to do to get your hand to control the bow in the opposite direction to what you're seeing in the mirror. The beginner eventually learns to do this, but there is another, simpler, method, that my teacher showed me, which does not require a mirror.
This method does not require any fingers on the strings; it is purely training for bow control. Hold the fiddle horizontally at waist level, just below the ribs, pointing more or less 45 degrees to the left. The fiddle rests in the palm of your left hand at the join of the back plate with the neck, the neck resting in the V between two of the fingers. The left hand holds the instrument firmly against your body, and that's all it does - you'll not be using the fingers. You should be looking down at the fiddle, which is about 18 inches away.
Place the middle of the bow on the A or D string halfway between the bridge and the fingerboard, parallel to the bridge. Looking down on it this is easy to see. With the thumb and first finger of your right hand hold the bow as lightly as you can at the frog end. The only weight on the string should be only that of the bow itself, with no weight contribution from the hand. Move the bow to your right so that the bow/string contact moves towards the point. You'll most probably find that the bow starts to drift away from parallel with the bridge. This is because there is stiffness in the bowing hand. When you first try to correct it you'll probably find you're making matters worse. Again, this is because you're subconsciously using muscular strength to control the direction of the bow, and this implies more stiffness somewhere in the bowing hand and wrist. The answer is to relax the hand and fingers even more, and when you achieve this then the bow will find its own path of least resistance which is always parallel to the bridge and at right-angles to the string.
When you've done this a few times from the middle of bow to the tip (usually the easiest) then try from the middle to the frog end, and from the frog to the middle. Then do whole bows in both directions, quite slowly with a steady tone.
The next stage is to add more fingers to the bow hold while achieving the same result.
Further stages:
1) faster bowing;
2) bigger sound by using relaxed weight of the hand.
If the bow starts to deviate from parallel in either of these stages, slow down and reduce the hand weight.
3) try it on the G-string, and then the E-string (you probably won't be able to use the full length of the bow on the E-string in this position).
4) you're doing everything right and it's working, so now move the fiddle halfway up your chest and repeat.
5) finally repeat the training at your normal shoulder-height playing position.
The advantages of this waist-level learning technique are that you're viewing the bow and fiddle "as is" and not as a mirror image, and you're also hearing the sound of the fiddle more as an audience or microphone would hear it. Don't forget that when you've got the fiddle under your chin you're hearing close-up a lot of high-frequency bow noise which doesn't travel far - the audience never hears it.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
There he goes again...
Another long and highly informative helpful post...
I found myself playing my fiddle the other day, spontaneously, holding the fiddle as a mandolin, bowing short rhythmic chords near the frog! never done that before.. A bit like medieval viol I think...
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: On Beginning Fiddle...
Johnny,
I switched from mandolin to fiddle 30 years ago. There is no comparison between playing the two instruments. Fiddle is a much more exacting and difficult.
The big mistake I made, when I was your age, was not to take lessons from a real violin teacher. I highly recommend this. You'll never regret it.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by quinnt01