For a long time I've wanted to seriously take up the Bodhran. Well....I've finally decided that now is the time. Does anyone have any advice on what to look for when buying, where to buy, etc? I do not want to break the bank. But I do however want to purchase quality in both sound and construction. There are too many options available online, and my head is going to explode.
Wait. Let's not jump to conclusions. Jamie, do you play another instrument already? If yes, then go for it and learn the bodhran (sorry I can't actually help you, I don't know bodhrans). If not, however, then you should totally learn another instrument (a MELODIC one) first, so you know how the music's really meant to go.
Here's a slight aside but related to the melodic instrument advice. This clip of of very nice box playing accompanied by the bodhran, but comically it's titled "Bodhran jigs with accordion" titter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysDYvv2op74
Well Jamie311, you've had a bit of a flaming above, but I'll resist the temptation to join in, and instead offer you some serious advice:
Belgarth Bodhrans of Orkney (Scotland) make very good quality tunable bodhrans, constructed of ash and good quality goatskin. Although tunable, they don't need constant adjustment - the mechanism is only really needed to take up slack after many years of use.
You CANNOT be SERIOUS !
Actually I speak as a member of a two-bodhran household. One was bought for gigs, as a replacement for a severely mistreated gigging instrument ( dropped ), being apparently of Pakistani origin ( less problems with tuning than the similar origin pipes ). The other was inherited from a friend, being a '70s' Dublin-made instrument, less sophisticated than the modern ones but a good sound.
We take the Dublin one to sessions and the other to band gigs. In both cases they are only used at times when there's a tune we don't know at all, and have no chance of learning as it goes along. The rest of the time we play the music.
Remember the generic description of a drummer - a person who hangs around with musicians.
And Seamus Ennis, a distinguished and literate musician, when asked what one should play the bodhran with, replied "A penknife". Remember it's not traditional, but was only introduced by O'Riada in the '50s'. Previously a tambourine had been used occasionally in ITM.
If you really want to know stuff and learn about the bodhran, go ask a bunch of bodhran yahoos who've founded their own little enclave. Don't bother asking this enclave, we're mainly musicians.
It would also be helpful (to save your head exploding!), to take no notice at all of people like Illig Leachim who are obviously suffering big amounts of self-doubt from being kept in time by percussionists.
Really good melody players appreciate someone keeping time for them, the duds get most uncomfortable about it all.
Regardless of the arguments for and against the bodhran, just putting them aside for a moment ... Hands up anyone who is of the opinion that even mediocre tune players, let alone really good ones, are quite capable of keeping time for themselves?
I have never argued that the best bodhran players can't be musicians. And I've always maintained that I'm not interested in the discussion about numpties playing the thing because they percieve it to be a way in to the "enclave".
The best bodhran players immitate, nae, reproduce the rhythm of the tunes very well. The argument is that it's pointless. Because the rhythm/percussion is already there, in the tune. If you are or ar capable of being a very good bodhran player, why waste your time with only half of the music?
Of course not, it is a hobby, a quest for excellence and a source of great pleasure until I come across cranky old fart like yourself who would rather nitpick than play.
Up Yours Illig, this is war.
A guy writes in to the mustard board with a question about purchasing a bodhran. Informed people offer up helpful suggestions and solutions directly related to the question.
Others hijack the thread and send it off in another direction in order to seek approval of their opinion or start an argument. Now THAT'S pointless.
May I suggest that such people either answer the original question or start another thread if youv'e got something to discuss?
Given that most sessions consist of tunes played in unison, a bodhran has great potential to add quite a lot to them.
I would never presume to "keep time" for a sessionful of accomplished musicians. I mark the time, add a little bass to the overall sound, and give the whole thing a certain lift.
My fellow musicians enjoy it, I enjoy it, listeners enjoy it, Ligg can fur cough and I.
And I agreed that if you really do want to know stuff about bodhrans, then go to a site dedicated to them. If you continue here, you are bound to get a broader picture.
right down the line I'm asking why? Rocky roader is the only one to offerr an answer, and it's a good answer. Though I'd like to know what specifically he/she does to add lift that can't equally be done on an instrument that can play tunes.
llig:
I find your bigoted attitude to bodhrans and bodhran players irritating and predictable, yet all the while dislikeable. I don't really mean quite what it might have sounded like, but please, just let it go.
You will always have bodhran players, we will always put up with fiddly chaps who want things to be like it was ninety years ago.
i believe I do see your point above regarding bodhrans and their "limitations." And, while I do play the bodhran occasionally, I can also acknowledge my own preference for melodic instruments.
I simply am of the opinion that not understanding someone else's choice of focus is no reason to deride it.
Opine, yes.
Pronounce, no.
And with all due respect, llig, you do pronounce.
Questioning that choice of focus can be perceived as attacking it, for some people. Not for me, but then, I do not care what someone else thinks of my choice of instrument. Else I would have never taken up the pipes. But i can understand why some people would be annoyed.
,
rook
The bodhran has tended to become ubiquitous.
I would suggest that those who can only whack the goat, and have no other musical talents, should be severely censured, and only allowed short periods of public performance.
But that's a purely personal opinion.
PS It's snowing down here. They've closed down London's buses.
And SO's school.
My opinion is that even the best bodhran playing in a session is usually irritating, and at best, pointless. When it achieves the level of pointless, I can tollerate it. So at the very least, I can't be bigoted.
I'm genuinly curious as to why people want to play the thing. Why they would not want to play the tunes instead. Musical puntuation, for example, is one of the finests things in really good tune playing.
I simply don't understand it. I can hold my hands up and say that I've never enjoyed playing with a bodhran in a session. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that some day I might. And if I'm to get to that stage, I need to understand the reasons why people enjoy the thing.
i really do not "get" certain other standard instruments of the irish genre (no names, we do now need a row!) and I do not perceive why others do.
Perhaps it is like food or drink - I will never undersstand, no matter how I try, other people's tastes. Till then, I try not to gasp and gag at their horrifying, inexplicable choices.
I believe you ARE sincerely trying to understand.
Come stateside sometime, Llig -
first round is on me.
Hi Michael, I think one answer to your question is that some people really do just like the drum (the ones who care about the tunes anyway, not those who learn bodhran 'cause they can't be arsed to learn a melody instrument). I don't fully know why one would prefer percussion over melody -- especially in Irish music -- but I'm also mystified by why people like death metal, so there you go. Good percussionists don't bother me in the least so while I don't really get their choice of instruments (and I play the pipes which even less people get) I'm not going to question it and I will enjoy the craic.
Now mcknowall has gone, we can carry on the discussion. (I'm sure he's secretly looking forward to his cold porridge in the morning)
Analogy time:
It seems that bodhran players see themselves analogous to the co-driver in a raleigh car. The co-driver's job is to support the driver and generally make the driver drive better.
But sitting next to a bodhran player doesn't do that for me. I already know the course, I already know all the corners and what gear to take them at. And I'm free to veer off the course for a bit if I want, or at least steer to the left or right of it. It's just irritating having someone nattering in my ear stuff I already know.
And it's great driving round with some other cars. It's not a race of course, you drive round together. Inspiring each other to take a slightly different route. And laugh when someone careers through the trees for a bit before catching up (though it's no fun if one of you is consistently crashing into the trees).
Bodhran players think that they are right there with you, driving round the course like everyone else. But they are not. Their course has no turns in it. It's just a straight furrow, ploughed right through the middle of the tunes' lovely winding lines. Yes, the best bodhran player may well have the course mapped out in his head as well, or even better, than the tune players, but all you hear is that relentlessly straight and narrow tuneless furrow.
I'm probably not in ITM long enough to call myself a musician yet (currently trying to learn the whistle with hope of eventually progressing to the flute) and at the age of 27 I hope I haven't left it too late....
But the analogy by Llig above made a lot of sense to me and made a fair point.
Although Llig - don't feel you have to defend your point too much
When you get one. Cut the cross bar out and put sticky back plastic all round the inside of the rim. Also, don't hold the stick like a pencil, you'll drop it. Stick it above the third finger but below the second and fourth (that is counting the thumb as first finger). Good luck. A good bodhran player really lifts a session.
I you want to buy a bodhran Jamie, you should check out
www.bodhranmaker.com.
Never mind people giving out about bodhrans. They are only being stereotypical. They have boring lives with nothing else to do but giving out about bodhrans. They will be giving out about something alse next week.
One or two outrageous bodhran players are giving all bodhran players a bad name.
You must be a glutton for teasing to put this thread up.
It is a harder instrument to play well than it looks. I know one particularly good bodhran player, and a number who think they are much better than they are.
Like any instrument you have to listen alot. In fact the good bodhran player is selective about what he plays in on and works very hard to no overwhelm. So he sits out alot. On the other hand is is a good whistle player.
Wow...harsh crowd. I did however neglect to add some bio information pertaining to my musical background. Here is a summary:
I am a drummer/percussionist. I attended Berkely School of Music as a Classical Percussion Major (1992 - 1996). My primary percussion instrument at that time was Marimba (Honors Recitalist). Since completing my degree, I have continued practicing and performing with many musicians. Currently, my primary instrument is drumset (Jazz, Funk). Occasionally I perform World Percussion having studied with Columbia Records recordning artist Tony Vacca.
Thanks to all of you that have provided me with some greatly appreciated advice.
Ah, now we understand........
My advice would be not to buy anything on line until you have been to several sessions, heard and if possible tried several bodhrans, and talked to the musicians about makes, origins, and prices.
The various parameters would include; depth of rim; diameter of rim; tuneable/not; head material; internal bars/not; etc.
And that's before you choose your tipper.........
I rather enjoyed llig's analogy. It made perfect sense. I do think however that if a Bodhran player can master in my opinion the most important part of music (dynamics), the player can take those tight spiral corners with the rest of them....
Jamie,
there is a good argument for ALSO or concurrently learning a melody instrument as well as bodhran. I might be a bit unusual in that I learned bodhran first and then took up fiddle for the very reasons that Llig outlines above....you really can't truly get "inside" the music until you understand its complexity, dynamics and endless possibilities for variation. And that can ONLY come by playing melody, not percussion.
having said that bodhran CAN while you learn a melody instrument make your appreciation for keeping time that much better [aside: how many woeful melody players can not keep time? plenty...i recommend bodhran lessons for all of them]
of course, if you turn out to be a bad bodhran player who cannot keep time, you're worse than a melody player who cannot. So, get some good lessons from someone who knows their stuff.
In any case, you STILL need to actually know the tunes if you want to be a good player...so why not also learn how to PLAY them as in melody as well? two instruments are still better than one. You'll be glad you did.
and while you're at it....take up the bones and go to Llig's sessions in Edinburgh...he'll be glad to see ya.
Belgarth makes nice drums...I bought my tippers from them and they are excellent!!!!. There's a guy in ottawa who also makes nice tippers...but not as nice as Belgarths....BUT
for drums you simply can't beat [ha ha] Seamus O'Kane from Northern Ireland..just google the name.
I really appreciate the advice you all have contributed in this thread. It's great to read input from those who appear to know vastly more than I do on the subject of not only the bodhran, but the type of music I am striving to learn more about in general. I have the opportunity to play with some fellows in this music genre. Only thing.............I need to be a performer more than a hacker in oredr to truly contribute.
Jamie, You may be right about dynamics being the most important part of music in general, but a number of things subdue the relevance of dynamics within traditional Irish dance tunes. One is the very small dynamic range of the pipes. Another is, it is (or at least was) dance music.
But you miss an important point about my analogy: The ability to play the tune is analogous to the ability of the car to turn left and right. That's why the drum can only plough it's furrow straight. If you want to build dynamics into it, you can have the road going up and down hill on the macro level and subtle lumps and bumps for the dynamics on the micro level. Yes, the drum could and should follow this very well. But you can 't take the corners. The line of the road/tune will for ever remain beyond your reach.
You are truly a poet when it comes to musical analogies. You make a lot of sense. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I have knowledge and skill pertaining to melodic instruments. However, my knowledge of the fiddle, guitar, etc. is quite limited. Especially when it come to Irish music.
Do you think it would be in my best interest to learn the basics when it comes to the afore-mentioned? I really do not want to be another hacker. I truly want to compliment the music (which is what I assume a bodhran player should do) without overpowering the other performers, thus destroying its charm.
Sorry..............one more posting on this subject. I have viewed a few bodhran soloists within the past months. It appears that the ability to manipulate the instruments tone is somewhat easy by meriliy pushin on the back side of the head. Would this not be adding melody to the product. I have extensive knowledge in playing timpani..............same thing..................notes are indeed present. In affect, why could I not play the melody with the string players? Obviously this would take some practice.............but again..........I do not intend on being a "hacker". My objective would be to "master" the instrument.
If you listen to good players, good tune players that is, and listen hard, you'll realise that the physical nature of the music is percussive. That's how you play it. With your fingers you tap the holes on your flute and pipes. And you strike certain notes with just your breath. On your fiddle you flick or tap a string, and you apply that tiny extra pressure to crunch some notes with your bow
The subtleties of little taps and flicks, and the delicacy of striking the music with nothing more than your breath is what it's about.
I think that if you are interested in percussion in music, then this music is ideal for you. But you have to realise that all this subtlety exists within the tunes themselves and I think that it's a mistake to think that it's possible to compliment that with an instrument you hit with a stick.
And sure, you can manipulate a bodhran's tone somewhat easily by pushin on the back side of the head, but this is hardly adding melody to the product.
The way to solve the bodhran problem is to get rid of "open sessions." They're not open, they are Irish traditional music sessions. They are to share the playing of Irish melodies. The best a bodhran player can do is to play inoffensively, but they still can't do what the point of the occasion is, and that's share the playing of a melody. I don't see what's hard about that to understand. Even if you are playing your drum well, you're still not playing the tune, and you are making it harder for the musicians to hear the tune. But if you advertise the session as "open" then who's to say a guy with a bodhran or a girl with a tuba can't sit in?
I'll say it plainly because everyone else is trying to be nice, bodhrans don't belong in sessions. If you want to play Irish music, learn music.
"Really good melody players appreciate someone Really good melody players appreciate someone keeping time for them
I'm fine with the odd decent percussion player but this from McKnowall is either a pish poor wind up or the gross ignorance of the music. I'd have to give the benefit of the doubt to the former but - keeping time FOR them - now that's a cracker
I've witnessed the bodhran in sessions here there and everywhere. When it's played well it's welcome. It's not welcome when it's played badly. It's as simple as that.
If you truly think the expletives I used in my previous post are an onomatopoeic representation of the sound of the drum, then you have my sympathy.
Please don't get me wrong, I can understand a personal distaste for the instrument but to offer your opinion as a universal truth is a mistake.
I'm a drummer, and I don't have a personal distaste for any music. I didn't say it was my personal opinion, I explained what the occasion is, and how it doesn't fit and why it doesn't fit. Bodhrans are fine in ceili bands (perfered according to my actual personal tastes), pub bands and concerts, but sessions aren't any of these. Even when they are "welcome" they still take away from the point of the session, which is to share the tune. I didn't make that up, and I'm not stating my personal preferences. That's what a session is, and bodhrans don't fit the occasion. I really don't think that's that hard to comprehend, is it?
I'm sorry to disagree but today's session is not quite the simple occassion you claim it to be.
Sessions, as I've witnesed, can comprise more than just two or more musicians knocking out tunes in unison. To me they are not as formal as the ceilidh bands you mentioned and consequently they consist not only of the tunesmiths, of course, but accompanying instruments both harmonic and rhythmic.
You may not like that combination and prefer tunes and tunes alone. Fine, that's your call, but to say a session is only meant to be this or that and not the other is, at the very least, misleading.
Regardless of the arguments for and against the bodhran, just putting them aside for a moment ... Hands up anyone who is of the opinion that even mediocre tune players, let alone really good ones, are quite capable of keeping time for themselves?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Some of them maybe, but the racket they create stamping their respective feet is awful.
Much better to have an amplified full set of drums, it is not as loud.
Or you could have abodhran.
The world's best bodhran now costs £140 pound, or £120 if you prefer a smaller drum.
Sometimes tune players stamp loudly to illustrate to bodhran toting numpties "This is the beat. It is not going to speed up or slow down according to your preferences. If you don't like it please feel free to annoy others somewhere else".
Sometimes tune players stamp loudly to illustrate to bodhran toting numpties "This is the beat. It is not going to speed up or slow down according to your preferences. If you don't like it please feel free to annoy others somewhere else".
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
In my experience they do it when there is NO bodhran, or any other rhythm instrument.
And I assume some melody speakers can communicate. Much easier to say to a bad bodhran player "that's awful" rather than compound the error by making even more unnecessary noise.
Just a thought. Obviously as the best bodhran player ever, I have never encountered the scenario you described.
"But today's sessions aren't as simple as you claim them to be."
Now that I agree with. And it gets back to my original point that sessions shouldn't be advertised as "open." Hell, I think sessions are odd ducks to begin with. They only came about as concessions as there were no more dancers to play for. But when I see a bunch of people at a session, I'm thinking, hey, only one of you needs to play the fiddle, the rest of you can dance.
Gran Cassa, since you are showing the obtuseness of somone brining a drum to a melody fight, do you think there are melody players ever at sessions that think, gowd, I'm so glad there is a bodhran here? And if not, why do you keep insisting that they belong?
Tadhg,
I play music the world over. I've never witnessed a melody fight. Sounds like a roughtsession to me!
When I'm on my travels I try to get to a session. I have particularly enjoyed listening to sessions in the west coast of Ireland where, as elswhere, competent instrumentalists including bodhranists, gather together to enjoy the music.
To answer your question bluntly, there are melody players who are glad to play with a bodhran player.They do this in a spirit of bonhomie, camaraderie call it what you will. The music sounds good and is enjoyed by the players and those listening.Those playing are content ,friends and strangers alike and everyone feels they belong.
If you prefer a 'closed' session where only you and your selected band of like-minded friends can attend, you could book a room somewhere or go to someone's house.
Otherwise a session in a public house is always going to be public.
I will continue to insist bodhrans 'belong 'while I continue to hear sessions as described above.
I've stood up to ill-informed and prejudicial comments about percussion instruments and those who play them ever since I was a child and will carry on so doing. Most of the time I can simply laugh any ignorant comments off. However when people come to this forum asking about bodhrans and they read adverse comments I think it's important that they understand that these comments can be challenged with more positive offerings.
"Glad to play with a bodhran player in the spirit of bonhomie" is different than what I was asking, but thanks for making the distinction, and again, for making my point.
You can call my comments not what you want to hear, but you can't call them ill-informed. You're the one trying to make sessions to be what you want them to be, I'm just acknowledging them for what they are. And again, it's not my personal preferance, I'm a drummer, I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just sticking up for logic and common sense.
And get off the "stood up to" schtick. You're not a victim, you're the party crasher. You're mistaking politeness for "bonhomie." If you could get an honest poll of experianced Irish musicians, (and no I don't mean drummers by musicians) I doubt it would be less than 90% at the most who think bodhrans belong in sessions. Not because melody musicians are mean or oppresive or adverse or whatever other red herring you come up with, there's just a time and place for everything.
Bodhran players are naturally thick skinned. This makes them more prone than most to missunderstand what they think is the spirit of bonhomie and camaraderie with what is in actual fact, freindly tollerance.
In my town we have open and closed sessions. But the one I enjoy the most is something in between. Anyone who comes in, even drummers, get a chance. But if they fall short will be politly asked to not continue.
You can have a perfectly good session without bodhrans, but you can't have one at all without melody players. Melody players are usually capable of keeping perfectly good time without the benefit of percussion of any kind.
All session instruments have a pecking order, or status - with fiddles being somewhere near the top, and bodhrans being somewhere near the bottom. As a bodhran player (now matter how good you are), you will always have a lowly status in the eyes of the melody players. Nothing will ever change that, so if you're not happy about being accorded a low status, it's probably better not to take up the bodhran.
Noisy celidhs are a different matter - in these circumstances percussion can be a posiitive benefit in keeping the rest of the dancers together - especially if the percussionist has a good knowlege of the dances.
I'm happy to take friendly tolerance if genuine bonhomie is not in abundance. Yes I'm thick – skinned but I'm not thick. I'm sensitive to the tunes and those playing them and I try to be especially alert to any player should they show signs of discomfort about my playing. Therefore I hope I can remedy the situation before someone has to ask me to stop playing. (That's not happened yet but I know there's always a first time!)
I'm not unduly concerned about other peoples perception of my status. I have no problem with those who play the tunes; fiddle, flute, whistle, pipes, etc. regarding themselves higher in status than the 'rhythm mongers'. Without the tunes there's not going to be a session all.
Nonetheless, I believe I have the musicianship and discipline to play an appropriate accompanying role to the tunes. I have worked at technique so that I can control what I'm doing effectively so that I can contribute something, within the limitations of the instrument to the music – I add the sound of the drum in order to enhance the rhythms made by the tunesmiths. I know very well that they don't need me to keep them in time. I also realise the importance of not playing all the time and in every tune.
I'm happy enough for people to regard the drum as being 'down the pecking order' and I'm content in acknowledging the drum's subservient role in terms of the instrumentation found in sessions.Yet while I'll happily admit to not being the best musician there I don't regard myself as being anyway inferior to my session friends.
I belong.
A fair question llig and at this time of night the answer may be rambling but bear with me to the end and I'll give it a go.
Many people are drawn to drums in general because they appeal to a basic primeval instinct. Other instruments which have this draw include ancient horns. Watch next time a bodhran player starts up and notice the reaction of the crowd. It need not be loud but something about the drum gets their attention and while other instruments will get toes tapping, drums seem to trigger that response more readily.. That alone is not enough to justify it's place in the music but if we want to undestand why it's so popular we can't discount this fundamental attraction
The rhythms inherent in the tune as provided by the tunesmiths provide the same rhythmic patterns to be used on the bodhran. They don't have to be exactly the same as the tune but they can be. eg. the tune in say a reel can be made up of running 8th notes with the occasional 16ths or tirplets. The bodhran can copy the rhythm exactly or simply keep the 8th notes going or augment the rhythm and use quarter notes and half notes and vary these depending on what the tune suggests. It need not only simply 'play the tune without the pitches.'
But the drum can provide a pitch on which those rhythmic patterns play eg. grounded on the tonic note then moving to the dominant for the 'B section.To me this awareness of pitch is really important but is often overlooked. Although the instrument is deeemed to be of indefinite pitch it does give off an identifiable pitch.
To my ears this rhythmic and tonal grounding contrasting yet relating to the tune magnifies the melodic line. Sorry if all that sounds somewhat rambling and pompous but musicians writing about music is just as bad as them talking about it but I hope you can get my drift.
Another idea occured to me about the way you described the percussive nature of playing fiddles and flutes etc. As I understand it you mentoned that if you play the left hand on the fiddle and don't use the bow or you play the flute without blowing you can hear the tune and for you this gives a percussive element to the music Yes?
Of course once the bow is used and the flute is blow into that percussive sound is no longer heard. It's still there of course and it's in the tune but it's not audible. Could you accept that the bodhran can bring that back when played sensitively, and with due regard to balance, so as to underpin the tune the same way as the left hand and pads are doing? Again all this sounds a tad fanciful and convoluted way of trying to explain what I mean by enhance. Maybe enhance is not the right word but again I hope youi can catch my drift.
I love the sound of a band with a variety of instruments each adding their characteristic voice to create a great noise and for me the bodhran plays an important part with it's rhythmical colouring and that's why I play it.
For me it's such a strong natural draw as are all percussion instruments. I play melody instruments also but I'm truly more comfortable with the bodhran. I guess it's something with which you are born that defines what instrument feels 'right' for you.
Some people get it others don't. Some people will tap their feet etc at the sound of the bodhran, others will flee to the hills!
And get off the "stood up to" schtick. You're not a victim, you're the party crasher. You're mistaking politeness for "bonhomie." If you could get an honest poll of experianced Irish musicians, (and no I don't mean drummers by musicians) I doubt it would be less than 90% at the most who think bodhrans belong in sessions. Not because melody musicians are mean or oppresive or adverse or whatever other red herring you come up with, there's just a time and place for everything.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Matt Molloy LOVES playing along with me, especially as a duet. Now when that Carlos Nunez was in one night Matt and I encouraged him to give us an owl tune, but he insisted I accompany him.
Now Carlos's opinion, take it or leave it, but Matt's I would respect.
Unless he was just trying to keep up with Liam Og who really loved playing alond with me.
Much Irish music without a bodhran, a heart without a pulse.
Now the great O'Riada didn't invent the bodhran, he simply revived it when he realised that Irish music was going nowhere without that oomph.
PS: For those interested you can see photos of Matt and I enjoying ourselves on The Session.Org group on something called Facebook. Alas in the two short videos I am playing mandolin in one, and blues harp in the other.
You can't have everything.
And Mr Llig, "tunesmiths?" I luv it, like one of my own more outlandish claims.
Tadhg, I have read more. If top musicians dislike bodhran's, when they form groups why do they have bodhrans in them?
I mean it is another split of the money? Being socialist are they?
A good/real session is not complete without at least one bodhran.
Sure no-one would even dream of playing the likes of O'Neill's march, Gravel Walk", "Wind That shakes the barley" "Lark in the morning" or any polka or slide without a bodhran.
Unless they didn't understand the essential life of the genre.
Irish traditional music is not classical music, it is to be enjoyed in an active rather than a passive way.
"Many people are drawn to drums in general because they appeal to a basic primeval instinct. That alone is not enough to justify it's place in the music. We can't discount this fundamental attraction."
I've never denied that the bodhran can have a good place in performance music. But the argument here is about people playing and swapping tunes for themselves.
Anyway, your paragraph beginning: "Another idea occurred to me about the way you described the percussive nature of playing fiddles and flutes..." It's a bit garbled, but you seem to be suggesting that, for example, when a fiddle player lays off the more obvious percussive nature of lots of changes of bow direction, and uses just the left hand instead, you say that, "the percussive sound is no longer heard. It's still there of course and it's in the tune but it's not audible. Could you accept that the bodhran can bring that back?"
Correct me I've I've misread that, but AAAARRRGH. This is fundamental to why I hate the fecking bodhran. Something subtle happens in the tune and and the fecking bodhran railroads right over it. And has the feckin' gall to think they are doing you a favour.
I don't know what the point of dropping names is for your arguement. If the players you mentioned showed up at a session I was either playing in or listening to and you were banging away over them, I would be really mad then.
I see the point of dropping names - it's been made necessary by the anti-bodhran posters dismissing the bodhran as unwelcome in sessions.
Some of the names dropped are well-respected, and their endorsement is quite significant to some of the arguments made.
It's obviously a personal prefernce thing
..... and by the way, did I mention that when I first met Peter Horan, he told me I didn't play loud enough?
The Bodhran!
In a masters hand! , yes please, anyday, welcome.
I play with all sorts, pipers fiddlers whistle, ye gods even the guitar, but my favourite? the bodhran.
Why? Well a good player invariably knows all the tunes, has been playing day in day out for 20, 30+ yrs, He knows where the triplets are, the phrasing, etc she/he doesnt get in the way when I ornament, I can relax and push it to the edge knowing that yer man is there for me, and Im there for him. we are both there for the music , the tunes.
Basically I dont care what instrument you play, if you have the experience, and the love and respect for the music then great,welcome, and lets hope we can play well together.
As far as the anti crowd goes? well it takes all sorts I suppose . I personally cant fathom their reasons unless they are?
And I would second Peters point, a good drummer is very welcome... as long as we can feel/hear them. Otherwise what is the point? So ...come on drummers sound out. (unless you cant really play in which case I agree with other posters and would ye just feck off)
But seriously, jamie. Advice? yes learn the tunes, in your head at least. Its like jazz, we have thousands of standards, each has specific rhythms, phrasing etc, each is different and a standard.
Yes, to truly compliment the tunes you need to know them its twists and turns, where it lifts. etc etc. Like in any genre there are no short cuts, its a slow steady story. Learn a tune, then another. after some years you can pick them up by ear, on the spot, because your ear is atuned to the language. Its a bit like a language, You may be fluent in German but it wont mean you can speak Spanish! You may be the best jazz player in the world but at Irish you know next to nothing.( though you may well have good learning skills developed )
I also really like it in sessions when it is played very well.
Part of which includes, not playing along with every set of tunes. Not playing loudly etc.
In my experience this is very rare. I only know one bodhran player taht I think really adds to a session in this way.
I quite like the bodhran used sparingly and not overly loudly over the course of a session by a competent player.
I dislike the bodhran when...
I very much dislike a bodhran played all night on every set even when played competantly. Sitting next to such a player is like having a nagging headache all night.
Any form of percussion which can be prominantly heard over the top of the melody instruments is detrimenal to a session, unless it is for a very occasional set & probably then by request. otherwise it just makes it harder for the other musicians to hear the tune when a change comes up.
I frequently hear drummers at sessions either (a) playing competantly & simply, but loudly all night. Ironing out the sifferences between the tunes & adding background noise.
or (b) more adventurously effectively playing their own drum solo all night over the top of tunes that they clearly don't know. Even good drummers (but not drummers who are alos good trad players) can be guilty of this.
We have an awkward situation at our current session where an older fellow has started turning up most weeks with either two small or one large bongo. He can play the drums. He has no idea of how to play irish music other than the basic rythms. Whilst he doesn't play along with everything, he jions in more often than not, playing his own improvisations around jig & reel rythms all night with no thought for the particular tune in question.
Quite clearly this detracts from the music, I doubt any of the melody players think otherwise. Problem is, we don't want to upset a nice old guy. we're stuck with him as he is a mate of one of the flute players and he was treated quite rudely by a notoriously rude musicain in another session.
But it is starting to really wear me down. The only reason no-one has said anything is an overdose of decency & politeness.
I doubt I ever will say anything myself (although I would if another drummer appeared).
The point to this long winded story is: if you are taking a percussion instrument to a session ask yourself if your fellow sessioneers are similarly suffering in silence. Don't try to overpower the music, play as quietly as possible unless asked to play louder. Simple percussion is better when felt under the music than heard over it. More complicated percussion should only be tried if you know the specific tuned being played.
Don't assume you are helping the melody players by setting a rythm. Most of the time it is more likely that you are providing an obstacle to the melody musicians by obscuring the playing of the other players.
I hate to be so negative. I didn't really feel this way until the last few months brought it home to me.
Join a band. Percussion is great in performance. But if joining in with a session remember back-ing should be unobtrusively in the back-ground.
There that was quite cathartic. If anyone read this far: are you mad? Personally I'd have given up long ago
Was it that bad? Then again I was strategically on the other side of the table and had a wall of melody players around me.
Trouble is so much "popular music" is so percussion-based that people who know nothing about Irish music can't seem to get their heads around the fact while percussion can sound nice if done correctly, it's actually irrelevant to the structure of the music.
Well llig here goes me banging my head against the brickwall again.
It would appear that we are talking about more than one type of session and seemingly what qualities are expected from the music made in each of them.An evening of listening to tunes and tunes alone played in unison eventually becomes tiresome to my ears. I like the tunes and you've only to read my earlier posts to understand the overiding importance I attach to them over anything else in a session,but it's not enough for me and importantly many melody players agree.
Some melody players have told me that playing tunes is fine but they also like the more 'complete' sound of a band comprising melody, harmony and rhythmic instruments.They still swap tunes around, everyone listens, picks it up and gradually everyone adds their instrumental contribution and the music takes off. There's still space for solos and duets and tunes without any accompaniment which is nice. It's a sesion with variety which comes from an encompassing approach to making music in a public house where all are welcome.
If there's a good place for the bodhran in performance music I really can't see why it can't have good place in a session. Nothing is preventing the swapping of tunes which once under the melody player's belts can get out to the accompanists.
As for the percussion element in music. Well, I was trying to meet you part way with your ideas of what percussion is about but it didn't work. Suffice to say I don't agree with you that flutes and fiddles play like percussionists. Percussion instruments add their own rhythmic colouring to a band in it's own layer in the texture.Loads of players can get on with playing a tune with all their subleties and not feel hamperd by the steady beat of a bodhran
It looks like you'll never get it. That's fine. I'm not criticising. Fortunately for percussionists many people do get it.
All this talk of percussionists spoiling a session reminds me of that old guy who used to play in Dolan's in Limerick - on cigar and tobacco tins with drumsticks - EVERY SINGLE night! If you liked percussion , he was OK and just about tolerable (decent timing, seemed to be familiar with the tune), for the first pint - after that, he was all over the place!
I'd LOVE to have seen llig meet him!
"it's actually irrelevant to the structure of the music."
IMO that is a complete reversal of reality. Its the other way round. The Bodhran, the rhythm , the drum and voice are the root of the music. As a dancer a good drummer is enough , a clear rhythm is paramount. all the technical fiddleyde stuff is worth nothing without a clear steady rhythm. Many many musicians cant keep a beat, sad but true, you can keep yr rolls and cranns etc, we just want the groove thanks. A jig with lift, at the right pace, a reel with life and verve.
The ornaments and all that are additional to a steady groove, Its sad that some musicians dont get this simple fact. IMOAMOTrad is fore-most dance music.
Um, the drum is not at the root of the music. *Rhythm" is, of course, but not drums. Yes, many melody players cannot keep time (I have been guilty of this one myself -- when you are learning this music you tend to through phase of being horrible at timing) but that is lack of mileage/skill/whatever on their part. A good melody player can keep time and the rhythm, which, as Michael has said a zillion times, are inherent in the melodies and the way you play instruments. I don't mind good drummers at a session but you can have great music without it. You can't have a decent session without the melody players (and competent ones at that).
Chris, that's the best advice on this whole thread. "Suffering in silence" indeed. It's easy to tell someone to stop playing if they're an eedjit, or drunk, or both, but if it's a nice person who comes to the session regularly, I would go to great lengths not to hurt that person's feelings. The social aspect of the session has great importance too. It's really quite a dilemma.
Melody players may sometimes have trouble with rythm
But that's nothing compared to the problems that percussionists have playing the tune
emily, it was pretty bad. The problem is is is almost incessant and appears to have a mind of its own. It is not in any way intergrated into the music, just rather obtrusively sitting on top of it. Granted the individual in question isn't playing full whack (unike the young guy that has come in twice just before closing: & who cares, if an entire steel band come sin at 1:40 when everyone is about to go home anyway), and not absolutely insensitive.
But whenever only one person was playing on the other side of tha table, and the others are struggling to hear what the tune is, all you could hear was the drum.
I will grant that I overstated some things a little. I know one bodhran player who is an outsanding addition to a session. I have known others that I have enjoyed having at a session, and not just fro their company, but because they didn't overpower.
Drums are the centerpiece of a ceili band. The most important components of a ceili band (IMHO):
1- drumer
2- someone competent & happy to call the dances if necessary hopefully also a melody player, but not "1" or "3" so they can continue to call during the dance if needed.
3- hopefully a strong box player of some description
4- everybody else
Although of course I'd take snare drum etc over bodhran in a ceili band. I hate listening to ceili style snare drumming, but it is a tremendous boost to a ceili band.
You can maybe get away without drums if you are playing fro dedicated dancers. Playing for family events, fund raisers, charity etc. bring a drum kit.
Ionannas, I would agree with your statement above about a good bodhran player. They can be greatto play with. Part of being a good bodhran player is knowing when to play. That appears to be the most difficult thing for beginners to learn. Many appear to think you learn "reel" & "jig" and that qualifies you to play along with every example of those tunes that rears its head all night.
No melody player would think that. They learn each tune individually. If a biginning bodhran player jioned in as frequently as a beginning melody player then there would be no problem. (Actually joining in a bit more than that would be ok too, but I'm puttingt he point in its bones).
In some posts the discussion has broadened out to accomp in general. I'd broaden it even further: if you play any instrument that can drown a ession, play it with care. Don't flood the session with loud piano box chord, or a too heavily strummed guitar. Or melody on GHB etc etc.
I don't know what the point of dropping names is for your arguement. If the players you mentioned showed up at a session I was either playing in or listening to and you were banging away over them, I would be really mad then.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Bad, but frequent, mistake Tadhg. If Tiger Woods says "I just said to Mickelson" the other day is he name dropping, or simply commenting on people he meets all the time due to his chosen life style? So when Matt and Liam Og say "I was playing with Bliss the other night" they are not name dropping, just talking about mutual friends.
You can maybe get away without drums if you are playing fro dedicated dancers. Playing for family events, fund raisers, charity etc. bring a drum kit.
As I said before, the polarisation is clear. Of course a whole evening of listening to tunes and tunes alone becomes tiresome on any-ones' ears. I couldn't do it.
So it's hardly surprising that:
a. people would rather join in than just listen.
And b: big hearted philanthropists strive to make it easier on the ear for Joe Punter. Nae, thrive on pleasing poor old Joe.
Me? I don't diss Joe, it's just that he's not in the picture. I like to play tunes with people who like to play tunes. I like to play tunes with my mates who I've been playing tunes with for years. And I like to play tunes with visitors to the session who like to play tunes.
It's as simple as that. And anything that gets in the way of that is at best a distraction, at worst, an end to it.
Is it selfish? Of course it's bloody selfish. So what?
Imagine a bloke fly fishing in a small upland stream ...
"You'll be there all day mate. Try this?" Pulls out a stick of dynamite.
Imagine a bloke who's seriously into model railways. He's built an incredibly detailed set in his attic ...
"Awe ... don't be so selfish ... Let the kids play with it."
"But they'll wreck it!"
Imagine a bloke contemplating his plate of the most exquisite sushi ...
"Euuughh ... you can't eat raw fish" And he squeezes Heinz tomato ketchup all over it.
Imagine a bloke driving round a race track he knows like the back of his hand. And someone sits next to him and witters in his ear all way round telling him what gear to take what corner ...
Imagine sitting in the pub with your mates and someone comes in ..
"Just take a look at those faces behind you .. they are so bored." So he gets out a simple feckin frame drum and smothers the delicacy of intricate interplay of breath and fingertips,. by hitting the thing with a bloody stick.
The drum needs to be played delicately when the other musicians are so doing and it can be played just as delicately.
I will condemn as readily as you anyone smothering the delicacy of intricate interplay of breath and fingertips (Maaaatron!)
I must admit I don't often experience such finesse at the sesions I go to - my loss.
Of course I understand you feeling hacked off when an insensitive non musician railroads through what you and your mates are doing. Fair enough, but it's not just bodhran players who can ruin a session.
No instrument is a musical instrument unless it's in the hands of a musician.
You are confusing delicatly with quetly. You can pick up a needle from the floor with your fingers. You can even do it with your lips. Try doing it with the end of a stick.
And I never feel hacked off when an insensitive non musician railroads through us. It never lasts for more than a set, often less than that. They just get politely asked to stop.
You are to Liam and Matt as Tiger is to Phil?!?!?!?!?!?!
I thought you were trying to dispel the notion of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes? If you don't want people to think of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes, then quit saying obtuse thick headed wannabe things.
Delicate, accurate, careful, considerate, discreet, refined, sensitive. Your thesaurus will have these definitions same as mine and yep, I can play my drum in this way and that will naturally suggest quietly as well..... and with a stick. I use 'hot rods', or very fine bamboo slivers etc. when I wish to be delicate.
I've just tried and I can pick up a needle with my sawn off hot rod stick ( fine wooden strands bonded as one unit) one handed I prised them apart at the ends and, rather like one of those arcade games, used them as a grabber. ( Took a few goes, mind).
Now tell me how you are going to do that task with a fiddle bow.
As for finesse. Well let's just say there are degrees of it in music making but for the ultimate in musical finesse I go and listen to something other than what I normally hear in the pub sessions I DO attend.
Sorry. Is 'hacked of'f' too strong a term?
Tadhg, old chap calm down. If you don't understand something, you only have to ask. It's just I don't care too much for insults. Thanks.
Ok ligg, saved you the bother looking for the needle Behind The Haystack or wherever you keep yours
I
've just picked up a needle with a fiddle bow. (Took a few goes though). isn't music fun?!
You are to Liam and Matt as Tiger is to Phil?!?!?!?!?!?!
I thought you were trying to dispel the notion of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes? If you don't want people to think of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes, then quit saying obtuse thick headed wannabe things.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Oops, touched a nerve did I?
Look if you have run out of constructive things to say just say nothing, instead of attempting to insult me.
And just to show no hard feelings Tadgh I have written a song for you;
"I could have been someone, sure so could anyone........."
Nice one BB ! And Hey, Jamie,if you're still out there, I would strongly support 'Newdeafman's' post - go to Bodojo.com for all your needs. And enjoy!
Good luck with the quest.
Oooh, the power of analogy ... just because you can pick up a needle with your dafy little bundle of twigs.
And just in case your english teacher is watching, you use a thesarus to find words similar to each other. If you want to find what a word means, you use a dictionary.
1. fine in texture, quality, construction, etc.: a delicate lace collar.
2. fragile; easily damaged; frail: delicate porcelain; a delicate child.
3. so fine as to be scarcely perceptible; subtle: a delicate flavor.
Aaaah, What's the matter llig? Just because you chose to offer up an analogy that didn't uphold your argument.
In case your english teacher is watching, it's spelt thesaurus and it's another useful tool one can use understand the subltlties of language.
However I'm disappointed that the discussion has turned to petty arguments about the use of english rather than furthering our musical understanding.
Furthermore if you are going to set me more tasks to prove my worth I hope I get the hand in marriage of a beautiful princess whose land stretches as far as the eye can see as a prize!
Yes, I'm sorry it's turned to petty arguments about the use of english also. Analogies, by their very nature, are bound to fall at some point. When that happens, you try another analogy, as I've done on this thread. It's very frustrating. I think I'm being clear.
Let's just strip itback to basics:
The best bodhran players immitate, nae, reproduce the rhythm of the tunes very well. The argument is that it's pointless. Because the rhythm/percussion is already there, in the tune. If you are or ar capable of being a very good bodhran player, why waste your time with only half of the music?
"The argument is that it's pointless. Because the rhythm/percussion is already there, in the tune. If you are or ar capable of being a very good bodhran player, why waste your time with only half of the music?"
so by that logic...
If there is one melody player in a session already then why do you need to add another because you all play exactly the same tune?
Michael I do have to say that I find your comments to be elitist and patronising. If you do not enjoy the presence of a bodhran at a session then that's fine, many others do enjoy the sound of the drum. Your opinion is well noted here, there is no need to keep harping on about it.
There is a section on the www.bodojo.com bodhran website for melody players where we seek their input and comments without insult. The site aims to develop responsible players to counter the vitriol that you delight in pouring upon our instrument.
I invite you to join us and have a sensible non-judgemental discussion, you can have your questions answered there about why bodhran players enjoy the drum and what we feel we contribute to sessions.
At the end of the day no matter how much you jump up and down about this, we're not going to disappear, you may be better off getting used to a drum being there.
I think we should work with the sealed off room idea. I was wondering: obviously you don't mean airtight, do you? Also how would you seal off the room securely enough so that a bodhran player couldn't get in? I don't think nails would be strong enough. All the bodhran player would have to do is use his head like a battering ram, and down goes the door. Ideas?
To be happy in life, avoid pubs, clubs, kitchens or indeed anywhere likely to feature Irish music.
The Irish unfortunately try to enjoy themselves.
And many like tunes, but realise they sound dull without a bodhran. So they set out to improve the product, and are generally worshipped by an adoring public for doing so.
Melody players however, as I have said many times, resent this adoration and take a sulk. They adopt an "it took me thirty years to learn the fiddle, and then the public prefer some eejit on a drum" attitude.
Yes, many people profess to the liking of tunes. Yes, Joe Punter often prefers it with a drum. And Yes, I've met tune players who resent the adoration that drummers get. Such melody players should, of course, eschew their fiddles and flutes and just play the drum instead. They'd be idiots not to.
It all depends on what you want to get out of it.
Me? I like playing tunes. And I'm not interested in Joe Punter.
I've never said oblivious. Disinterest yes, but you can still have respect. Though, of course, "respect" in no way implies concern, and certainly no pandering too.
Well Mr. Gill, your elitism blows my tiny mind - yes you guessed it, I play bodhran. But then there's tiny minds and then there's tiny minds. I wouldn't want to share a session with you, so rest assured on that. Why dont you just play your superlative music in a quiet room with your fellow thinkers and in the safe knowledge that none of the rest of us will be trying to find a way in.
All very revealing, but just goes on and on and leads me to wonder what you do for fun..... and no, I don't want to know.
I expected a rapid and forceful reply but I guess you are treating my comments with the contempt they deserve. That's your right.
I just think you are missing something, and I also think no one of us can do anything about that. Sad but true.
Gran Cassra said it all so much better than I ever could - so if you have a moment to spare, and want to learn something, and I know that's unlikely, scroll back to the post of 5 February, and write it out a hundred times, and give us all a rest.
Hey everyone, let's spare a thought for Jamie 311 in all of this vitriole. He deserved better coming here for some serious advice and we should be ashamed of ourselves. If you are still there Jamie, as an already established percussionist, go to Bodojo.com, and give yourself a break !
This thread is fantastic entertainment! ROTFLMFAO!!!
I'm learning mandolin for the melody & guitar for backing
I've played bodhran for about 10 years. Drums all my life.
I'm gonna have to learn to rattle the bones & spoons one of these days. It's not a high priority though.
Then I have a bouzouki, tin whistle and irish flute on my wish list. I'd kinda like to learn how to play a cello too but I don't know if I'll live long enough to get good at it. (That Natalie Haas is amazing huh?)
Hey longlegs, sorry for not replying, I thought this thread had died
I'm glad you wouldn't want to play with me. That's one more off the list. And if we're lucky, the original poster should be realising the pointlessness of the instrument and getting turned off the thing too.
And me and my mates do play in a quiet room (most of the time) in a pub ... It's what we do for fun. Playing tunes, especially when you can hear yourselves uncluttered by pointless noise, is fun.
And far from being elitist, I'd like to share the fun of playing tunes and get more people into it.
Jamie 311 came here for some serious advice, and I'm giving it.
Apropo tunes on a Jews Harp & the 'great fluting and mouth harping' thread:
Jamie wrote:
"I have viewed a few bodhran soloists within the past months. It appears that the ability to manipulate the instruments tone is somewhat easy by meriliy pushin on the back side of the head. Would this not be adding melody to the product."
If this 'IS' possible, then, with ALL the Bodhran players that are out there, can someone please direct me to a YouTube or sound file of a Bodhran player who is actually playing a TUNE solo, that we can recognize?
I rest my case. Do us all a favour though. When you feel impelled to give some serious advice next time, count up to ten, and then leave subjects alone where your expertise doesn't quite come up to scratch. You were simply trying to undermine a legitimate enquiry and steer it off into your own choice of direction, yet again.
By so doing you sour the mustard pages for the rest of us.
And guess what...it gets boring. Learn a different tune, why don't you.
I think Michaels point is a valid one that should be considered. If you don't already play a melody instrument and are primarily interested in the traditional instrumental music of ireland (as opposed to singing).
Then it is worthwhile asking yourself: in the long term would I not be better learning a melody instrument.
Of course having asked yourself that question, if the honest answer is "no it is the bodhran I want to be playing", then by all means get yourself a bodhran. But it is important to ask yourself that question.
Llig may well stand at one end of the bodhran-appreciation-scale, but it will do a new bodhran player no harm to know that this sliding scale of appreciation does exist.
Bear in mind that this is "thesession.org" not "bodhran.org". If you ask a bunch of session musicians their opinions on taking up the bodhran then their advice will vary somewhat more than the advcie given from aq group of dedicated bodhran players. If Lligs response had been made on a bhodran discussion group it would have been out of place, but not on this site.
I play a not universally popular instrument myself (banjo). If someone were to post here that they were considering taking up the banjo, some may suggest they rather prioritise the fiddle or flute as more appropriate. Fair play sez I, this is a group for sessioneers af all instruments after all.
Isn't there a danger though rambler, in all of this prioritising, that ITM sessions in years to come will comprise of ONLY just a load of old tight arsed Uilleann Pipe, Fiddle & Flute nit-pickers?
I say Vive la Différence!
After all, diversity & natural selection has done a pretty good job of bringing us this far!
Just remember Chris that good old Seán passed away in 1971 & ITM has changed just a little since then. So is his opinion still as valid, in today's context? Hmmmmmmmm
As for the Button Box, I'd say you are never too old to start again! ........ you should go for it!
I hope to, on the box. I got a birthday card last month from my wife & daughter with the message "we owe you an accordeon".
I asked a box playing freind for advice & he offered to lend me a c/c# box. which would be ideal as it will allow me to find out if I can actaully make the time to learn a new instrument; and also to see whether I prefer c#/d or b/c fingering before actually shelling out for a box.
Llig, I wouldn't dream of doubting your integrity, and I'm sorry if it appeared so.
But relevance, well that might be another matter. Why not get really relevant and found your own site? I promise not to visit....
My main grumble is that you tried to hijack what was a genuine request for help and that it added sweet nothing.
Be happy and live and let live is all I ask.
My my my, this is a bit bitter sweet.
Once met a guy with a bodhran who said "I can play but I'm not John Jo Kelly" Didn't hear him play but he did look nothing like him so he was probably right!!
And he might have aspired to play like John Jo, and given time and encouragement he might have surpassed him. JJK started somewhere once. Would reading the last 1000 posts here have put him off? No. And lets thank our lucky stars for that. And I know he is accomplished on other instruments, as many other bodhran players are, but I would suspect that the bodhran would be his instrument of choice. I also suspect that llig would gladly make room for JJ at any session and bite his lip. Or would he ask the visitor to shut up as he was superfluous ?
In spite of all efforts to deter, I shall go on, as sensitive to the music and the situation as I can be. I will always try to be aware of the feelings of others, by asking them, and I will try to avoid sessions where more than one fiddle is present, just in case they are out of sinc. There's more than one kind of hell on this earth.
"yeah, don't bother JJ. Learn the tunes instead".......
Mc Knowall's post on 2nd Feb. said it better than I ever could.. A WET SOCK FULL OF PORRIDGE.
I saw JJ recently at Celtic connections and he was great. The concert should really have been a nightmare: three tenor banjos, a guitar & a bodhran, but it was wonderful.
Not sure it'd be the ideal line up for the average session though
we had a great craic at a session last night swapping stories about curious 'instruments' we'd all encountered - these included someone playing 'The Seagull' on a combination of plastic piping and heads, american tunes on a bicycle pumps, etc. - and the tone on the conversation was a mixture awestruck and respectful.
But would our eyes light up if someone sat down at the table with such an instrument? Unlikely.
A player who has complete mastery over their instrument combined with great taste will generally be welcome at any session, even if this is a dulcimer or a bohdran or a washboard. In the wrong hands (ie the majority), such instruments are just session kryptonite.
FMF
PS I wouldn't put it past 'Llig' to ask JJ to tone it down if he was getting carried away - he's nothing if not consistent!
That's fine for a gig on stage, but in your ear when your playing a few quiet tunes down the pub .........NO CHANCE!
If I had that in my ear at a session, I'm sorry but it'd be either him or me!
That said, I have no doubt that Eamon Murray & JJ are well able & have the common sense, to play quietly & with tact, in a quiet session situation.
Ha ha, I remember when I was a kid, and going to see every band that played, there was a great tradition of drum solos. I remember at first, thinking it was a bit strange that the rest of the band would walk off stage. And then realising that the audience was wandering off to the bar as well.
I'd paid my money, I was gonna watch Cozey Powell whackin his drums upside down in a strange cage thing that was suspended above the stalls. But the rest of the band wasn't gonna watch it.
So ... to the clip above. Some impressionable fellow was impressed enough to film it and post it on you tube. But the poor thwacker's band mates couldn't be arsed even sharing the stage with it. Sure they clapped when they came back. But if they really thought it was good, you'd have thought that they'd have at least stayed on the stage to give it some support. Rather than leaving the stage and encouraging the audience to leave too.
I played the Bore- ON for 10 years before saying to the self..SELF its time to make the effort to learn tunes..It now hangs on my wall and thats where it stays unless the self gets nostalgic andbangs along to a CD when bored..
.. Playing the Bodhran may me a good path to the music, but I cant understand those ancient Bodhran players who never pick up a whistle or Fiddle or whatever. Whers the Hunger for the Choons? How can you profess to be the rythem at the epicentre at the heart of the soul of ITM choons and not progress to playing them. Laziness?? just like smoking cannibis is a good intro drug b4 forming a PROPER crack habit..Why not just bypass the first and go staright to the Crack..At least then you dont have to be self concious about your drug/instrument cuz yer not hardcore enuf. Notice not many people give off about the Flute or the Fiddle or the Pipes on this site. Nor do Flute players Fiddlers Pipers etc ask others in the ITM community to regularly
recognise or legitimise their musical endevours. Why is that
Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Bodhran Advice Anyone?
For a long time I've wanted to seriously take up the Bodhran. Well....I've finally decided that now is the time. Does anyone have any advice on what to look for when buying, where to buy, etc? I do not want to break the bank. But I do however want to purchase quality in both sound and construction. There are too many options available online, and my head is going to explode.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Jamie311
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Did you actually bother to look at the past discussions?
If not I should 'seriously' consider using a tin hat for the rest of this.....
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by john knoss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
One without skin would be a good start.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by CDNMoose
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Wait. Let's not jump to conclusions. Jamie, do you play another instrument already? If yes, then go for it and learn the bodhran (sorry I can't actually help you, I don't know bodhrans). If not, however, then you should totally learn another instrument (a MELODIC one) first, so you know how the music's really meant to go.
And something in your bio would be nice.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Joe CSS
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Yes, a wee bit of info about yourself would help you get some useful advice on this one.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I can see Illig smiling now, dreaming of a bodhran player with an exploding head
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Here's a slight aside but related to the melodic instrument advice. This clip of of very nice box playing accompanied by the bodhran, but comically it's titled "Bodhran jigs with accordion" titter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysDYvv2op74
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You don't want to break the bank? Good policy, but the trouble is that most of them are already broken.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Well Jamie311, you've had a bit of a flaming above, but I'll resist the temptation to join in, and instead offer you some serious advice:
Belgarth Bodhrans of Orkney (Scotland) make very good quality tunable bodhrans, constructed of ash and good quality goatskin. Although tunable, they don't need constant adjustment - the mechanism is only really needed to take up slack after many years of use.
http://www.belgarth.com/
Not cheap though, but remember, you only get what you pay for. Cheap bodhrans are a waste of money.
And many would say that all bodhrans are a waste of money!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"For a long time I've wanted to seriously take up the Bodhran." WHY?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You CANNOT be SERIOUS !
Actually I speak as a member of a two-bodhran household. One was bought for gigs, as a replacement for a severely mistreated gigging instrument ( dropped ), being apparently of Pakistani origin ( less problems with tuning than the similar origin pipes ). The other was inherited from a friend, being a '70s' Dublin-made instrument, less sophisticated than the modern ones but a good sound.
We take the Dublin one to sessions and the other to band gigs. In both cases they are only used at times when there's a tune we don't know at all, and have no chance of learning as it goes along. The rest of the time we play the music.
Remember the generic description of a drummer - a person who hangs around with musicians.
And Seamus Ennis, a distinguished and literate musician, when asked what one should play the bodhran with, replied "A penknife". Remember it's not traditional, but was only introduced by O'Riada in the '50s'. Previously a tambourine had been used occasionally in ITM.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hi Jamie,
Best to look for advice from those who know about the instrument and understand WHY rather than those who don't.
Go to;
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/bodhran/
where you will find lots of advice from nice friendly people.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Actually Jamie, that's probably good advice.
If you really want to know stuff and learn about the bodhran, go ask a bunch of bodhran yahoos who've founded their own little enclave. Don't bother asking this enclave, we're mainly musicians.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
It would also be helpful (to save your head exploding!), to take no notice at all of people like Illig Leachim who are obviously suffering big amounts of self-doubt from being kept in time by percussionists.
Really good melody players appreciate someone keeping time for them, the duds get most uncomfortable about it all.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Regardless of the arguments for and against the bodhran, just putting them aside for a moment ... Hands up anyone who is of the opinion that even mediocre tune players, let alone really good ones, are quite capable of keeping time for themselves?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
musician: a person who plays a musical instruments
percussionist: a musician who plays percussion instruments
Bodhran players are musicians.
Now all they have to do is attain the mighty standards of the "enclave", eh?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I have never argued that the best bodhran players can't be musicians. And I've always maintained that I'm not interested in the discussion about numpties playing the thing because they percieve it to be a way in to the "enclave".
The best bodhran players immitate, nae, reproduce the rhythm of the tunes very well. The argument is that it's pointless. Because the rhythm/percussion is already there, in the tune. If you are or ar capable of being a very good bodhran player, why waste your time with only half of the music?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You are deaf, you poor old thinge
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
do you make your living making and selling bodhrans?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Of course not, it is a hobby, a quest for excellence and a source of great pleasure until I come across cranky old fart like yourself who would rather nitpick than play.
Up Yours Illig, this is war.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
A guy writes in to the mustard board with a question about purchasing a bodhran. Informed people offer up helpful suggestions and solutions directly related to the question.
Others hijack the thread and send it off in another direction in order to seek approval of their opinion or start an argument. Now THAT'S pointless.
May I suggest that such people either answer the original question or start another thread if youv'e got something to discuss?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Given that most sessions consist of tunes played in unison, a bodhran has great potential to add quite a lot to them.
I would never presume to "keep time" for a sessionful of accomplished musicians. I mark the time, add a little bass to the overall sound, and give the whole thing a certain lift.
My fellow musicians enjoy it, I enjoy it, listeners enjoy it, Ligg can fur cough and I.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
War? Unfortunate choice of words there. Let's be civil eh?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I think it's pretty straight forward if someone states that they want to learn to play a bodhran to ask "why?".
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
And I agreed that if you really do want to know stuff about bodhrans, then go to a site dedicated to them. If you continue here, you are bound to get a broader picture.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
No, you don't ask why, you tell 'em why not.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"I suggest that such people either answer the original question or start another thread if youv'e got something to discuss?"
This part of Jeremy's web site is called the "discussions" part.
If you want to change it's name to "Q&A", petition Jeremy.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Time to stand in front of the mirror and have a long, hard look at yerself
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
right down the line I'm asking why? Rocky roader is the only one to offerr an answer, and it's a good answer. Though I'd like to know what specifically he/she does to add lift that can't equally be done on an instrument that can play tunes.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Punctuation!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
llig:
I find your bigoted attitude to bodhrans and bodhran players irritating and predictable, yet all the while dislikeable. I don't really mean quite what it might have sounded like, but please, just let it go.
You will always have bodhran players, we will always put up with fiddly chaps who want things to be like it was ninety years ago.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Most of us real blokes over here in Australia gave up fiddling at about age 15 when we discovered the real thing
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
llig:
i believe I do see your point above regarding bodhrans and their "limitations." And, while I do play the bodhran occasionally, I can also acknowledge my own preference for melodic instruments.
I simply am of the opinion that not understanding someone else's choice of focus is no reason to deride it.
Opine, yes.
Pronounce, no.
And with all due respect, llig, you do pronounce.
Questioning that choice of focus can be perceived as attacking it, for some people. Not for me, but then, I do not care what someone else thinks of my choice of instrument. Else I would have never taken up the pipes. But i can understand why some people would be annoyed.
,
rook
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
The bodhran has tended to become ubiquitous.
I would suggest that those who can only whack the goat, and have no other musical talents, should be severely censured, and only allowed short periods of public performance.
But that's a purely personal opinion.
PS It's snowing down here. They've closed down London's buses.
And SO's school.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
And the session tonight.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Another bloody good reason to line in Australia----no Michael Gill and no snow
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Oh, bugger, LIVE in Aus
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
My opinion is that even the best bodhran playing in a session is usually irritating, and at best, pointless. When it achieves the level of pointless, I can tollerate it. So at the very least, I can't be bigoted.
I'm genuinly curious as to why people want to play the thing. Why they would not want to play the tunes instead. Musical puntuation, for example, is one of the finests things in really good tune playing.
I simply don't understand it. I can hold my hands up and say that I've never enjoyed playing with a bodhran in a session. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that some day I might. And if I'm to get to that stage, I need to understand the reasons why people enjoy the thing.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You are a wet sock full of cold porridge. Goodnight!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Fair enough, Llig.
i really do not "get" certain other standard instruments of the irish genre (no names, we do now need a row!) and I do not perceive why others do.
Perhaps it is like food or drink - I will never undersstand, no matter how I try, other people's tastes. Till then, I try not to gasp and gag at their horrifying, inexplicable choices.
I believe you ARE sincerely trying to understand.
Come stateside sometime, Llig -
first round is on me.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Piece
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hi Michael, I think one answer to your question is that some people really do just like the drum (the ones who care about the tunes anyway, not those who learn bodhran 'cause they can't be arsed to learn a melody instrument). I don't fully know why one would prefer percussion over melody -- especially in Irish music -- but I'm also mystified by why people like death metal, so there you go. Good percussionists don't bother me in the least so while I don't really get their choice of instruments (and I play the pipes which even less people get) I'm not going to question it and I will enjoy the craic.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Going back to the posters original Q Jamie try www.bodojo.com you'll find all the information you'll need there.
newdeafman
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by newdeafman
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Now mcknowall has gone, we can carry on the discussion. (I'm sure he's secretly looking forward to his cold porridge in the morning)
Analogy time:
It seems that bodhran players see themselves analogous to the co-driver in a raleigh car. The co-driver's job is to support the driver and generally make the driver drive better.
But sitting next to a bodhran player doesn't do that for me. I already know the course, I already know all the corners and what gear to take them at. And I'm free to veer off the course for a bit if I want, or at least steer to the left or right of it. It's just irritating having someone nattering in my ear stuff I already know.
And it's great driving round with some other cars. It's not a race of course, you drive round together. Inspiring each other to take a slightly different route. And laugh when someone careers through the trees for a bit before catching up (though it's no fun if one of you is consistently crashing into the trees).
Bodhran players think that they are right there with you, driving round the course like everyone else. But they are not. Their course has no turns in it. It's just a straight furrow, ploughed right through the middle of the tunes' lovely winding lines. Yes, the best bodhran player may well have the course mapped out in his head as well, or even better, than the tune players, but all you hear is that relentlessly straight and narrow tuneless furrow.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I'm probably not in ITM long enough to call myself a musician yet (currently trying to learn the whistle with hope of eventually progressing to the flute) and at the age of 27 I hope I haven't left it too late....
But the analogy by Llig above made a lot of sense to me and made a fair point.
Although Llig - don't feel you have to defend your point too much
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Ciarán.
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
When you get one. Cut the cross bar out and put sticky back plastic all round the inside of the rim. Also, don't hold the stick like a pencil, you'll drop it. Stick it above the third finger but below the second and fourth (that is counting the thumb as first finger). Good luck. A good bodhran player really lifts a session.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I you want to buy a bodhran Jamie, you should check out
www.bodhranmaker.com.
Never mind people giving out about bodhrans. They are only being stereotypical. They have boring lives with nothing else to do but giving out about bodhrans. They will be giving out about something alse next week.
One or two outrageous bodhran players are giving all bodhran players a bad name.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Walnut Box
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You must be a glutton for teasing to put this thread up.
It is a harder instrument to play well than it looks. I know one particularly good bodhran player, and a number who think they are much better than they are.
Like any instrument you have to listen alot. In fact the good bodhran player is selective about what he plays in on and works very hard to no overwhelm. So he sits out alot. On the other hand is is a good whistle player.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Wow...harsh crowd. I did however neglect to add some bio information pertaining to my musical background. Here is a summary:
I am a drummer/percussionist. I attended Berkely School of Music as a Classical Percussion Major (1992 - 1996). My primary percussion instrument at that time was Marimba (Honors Recitalist). Since completing my degree, I have continued practicing and performing with many musicians. Currently, my primary instrument is drumset (Jazz, Funk). Occasionally I perform World Percussion having studied with Columbia Records recordning artist Tony Vacca.
Thanks to all of you that have provided me with some greatly appreciated advice.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Jamie311
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You're welcome Jamie.
Did you enjoy llig's contribution?
Lordy, Heaven help us! He's behind the wheel of a car now!
Be very aware of your blind spot llig!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Ah, now we understand........
My advice would be not to buy anything on line until you have been to several sessions, heard and if possible tried several bodhrans, and talked to the musicians about makes, origins, and prices.
The various parameters would include; depth of rim; diameter of rim; tuneable/not; head material; internal bars/not; etc.
And that's before you choose your tipper.........
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hi Gran,
I rather enjoyed llig's analogy. It made perfect sense. I do think however that if a Bodhran player can master in my opinion the most important part of music (dynamics), the player can take those tight spiral corners with the rest of them....
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Jamie311
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Jamie,
there is a good argument for ALSO or concurrently learning a melody instrument as well as bodhran. I might be a bit unusual in that I learned bodhran first and then took up fiddle for the very reasons that Llig outlines above....you really can't truly get "inside" the music until you understand its complexity, dynamics and endless possibilities for variation. And that can ONLY come by playing melody, not percussion.
having said that bodhran CAN while you learn a melody instrument make your appreciation for keeping time that much better [aside: how many woeful melody players can not keep time? plenty...i recommend bodhran lessons for all of them]
of course, if you turn out to be a bad bodhran player who cannot keep time, you're worse than a melody player who cannot. So, get some good lessons from someone who knows their stuff.
In any case, you STILL need to actually know the tunes if you want to be a good player...so why not also learn how to PLAY them as in melody as well? two instruments are still better than one. You'll be glad you did.
and while you're at it....take up the bones and go to Llig's sessions in Edinburgh...he'll be glad to see ya.
Belgarth makes nice drums...I bought my tippers from them and they are excellent!!!!. There's a guy in ottawa who also makes nice tippers...but not as nice as Belgarths....BUT
for drums you simply can't beat [ha ha] Seamus O'Kane from Northern Ireland..just google the name.
the best drums out there. bar none.
happy whacking...
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
metloef are pretty damn good too...try the kangaroo skin
http://www.metloef.com/website_eng/index_eng.html
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I really appreciate the advice you all have contributed in this thread. It's great to read input from those who appear to know vastly more than I do on the subject of not only the bodhran, but the type of music I am striving to learn more about in general. I have the opportunity to play with some fellows in this music genre. Only thing.............I need to be a performer more than a hacker in oredr to truly contribute.
Again, thank you very much for your input.
Cheers!
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Jamie311
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Jamie, You may be right about dynamics being the most important part of music in general, but a number of things subdue the relevance of dynamics within traditional Irish dance tunes. One is the very small dynamic range of the pipes. Another is, it is (or at least was) dance music.
But you miss an important point about my analogy: The ability to play the tune is analogous to the ability of the car to turn left and right. That's why the drum can only plough it's furrow straight. If you want to build dynamics into it, you can have the road going up and down hill on the macro level and subtle lumps and bumps for the dynamics on the micro level. Yes, the drum could and should follow this very well. But you can 't take the corners. The line of the road/tune will for ever remain beyond your reach.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Very good llig!
You are truly a poet when it comes to musical analogies. You make a lot of sense. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I have knowledge and skill pertaining to melodic instruments. However, my knowledge of the fiddle, guitar, etc. is quite limited. Especially when it come to Irish music.
Do you think it would be in my best interest to learn the basics when it comes to the afore-mentioned? I really do not want to be another hacker. I truly want to compliment the music (which is what I assume a bodhran player should do) without overpowering the other performers, thus destroying its charm.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Jamie311
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Sorry..............one more posting on this subject. I have viewed a few bodhran soloists within the past months. It appears that the ability to manipulate the instruments tone is somewhat easy by meriliy pushin on the back side of the head. Would this not be adding melody to the product. I have extensive knowledge in playing timpani..............same thing..................notes are indeed present. In affect, why could I not play the melody with the string players? Obviously this would take some practice.............but again..........I do not intend on being a "hacker". My objective would be to "master" the instrument.
Sorry for any misspelling...I'm only a drummer.
Thanks again,
Jamie
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Jamie311
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
If you listen to good players, good tune players that is, and listen hard, you'll realise that the physical nature of the music is percussive. That's how you play it. With your fingers you tap the holes on your flute and pipes. And you strike certain notes with just your breath. On your fiddle you flick or tap a string, and you apply that tiny extra pressure to crunch some notes with your bow
The subtleties of little taps and flicks, and the delicacy of striking the music with nothing more than your breath is what it's about.
I think that if you are interested in percussion in music, then this music is ideal for you. But you have to realise that all this subtlety exists within the tunes themselves and I think that it's a mistake to think that it's possible to compliment that with an instrument you hit with a stick.
And sure, you can manipulate a bodhran's tone somewhat easily by pushin on the back side of the head, but this is hardly adding melody to the product.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
The way to solve the bodhran problem is to get rid of "open sessions." They're not open, they are Irish traditional music sessions. They are to share the playing of Irish melodies. The best a bodhran player can do is to play inoffensively, but they still can't do what the point of the occasion is, and that's share the playing of a melody. I don't see what's hard about that to understand. Even if you are playing your drum well, you're still not playing the tune, and you are making it harder for the musicians to hear the tune. But if you advertise the session as "open" then who's to say a guy with a bodhran or a girl with a tuba can't sit in?
I'll say it plainly because everyone else is trying to be nice, bodhrans don't belong in sessions. If you want to play Irish music, learn music.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Quite right tadhg, thanks for the back up.
I was reading mcknowall's bodhran website and in the faq section he had this:
Q. How do I know if I’m good enough to play in a session?
A. You are!, a session is a social event and a learning experience.
I wonder how many musicians' evenings have been ruined by such appalling brandishing's of stupidity.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"Really good melody players appreciate someone Really good melody players appreciate someone keeping time for them
I'm fine with the odd decent percussion player but this from McKnowall is either a pish poor wind up or the gross ignorance of the music. I'd have to give the benefit of the doubt to the former but - keeping time FOR them - now that's a cracker
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
'I'll say it plainly because everyone else is trying to be nice, bodhrans don't belong in sessions.'
Tosh, piffle. balderdash and piffle!!
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I at least explained why.
You imitated the instrument in question and kind of made my point.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Your explanation of why is inadequate.
I've witnessed the bodhran in sessions here there and everywhere. When it's played well it's welcome. It's not welcome when it's played badly. It's as simple as that.
If you truly think the expletives I used in my previous post are an onomatopoeic representation of the sound of the drum, then you have my sympathy.
Please don't get me wrong, I can understand a personal distaste for the instrument but to offer your opinion as a universal truth is a mistake.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I'm a drummer, and I don't have a personal distaste for any music. I didn't say it was my personal opinion, I explained what the occasion is, and how it doesn't fit and why it doesn't fit. Bodhrans are fine in ceili bands (perfered according to my actual personal tastes), pub bands and concerts, but sessions aren't any of these. Even when they are "welcome" they still take away from the point of the session, which is to share the tune. I didn't make that up, and I'm not stating my personal preferences. That's what a session is, and bodhrans don't fit the occasion. I really don't think that's that hard to comprehend, is it?
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
So you would apply that to any accompaniment then?
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I'm sorry to disagree but today's session is not quite the simple occassion you claim it to be.
Sessions, as I've witnesed, can comprise more than just two or more musicians knocking out tunes in unison. To me they are not as formal as the ceilidh bands you mentioned and consequently they consist not only of the tunesmiths, of course, but accompanying instruments both harmonic and rhythmic.
You may not like that combination and prefer tunes and tunes alone. Fine, that's your call, but to say a session is only meant to be this or that and not the other is, at the very least, misleading.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Regardless of the arguments for and against the bodhran, just putting them aside for a moment ... Hands up anyone who is of the opinion that even mediocre tune players, let alone really good ones, are quite capable of keeping time for themselves?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Some of them maybe, but the racket they create stamping their respective feet is awful.
Much better to have an amplified full set of drums, it is not as loud.
Or you could have abodhran.
The world's best bodhran now costs £140 pound, or £120 if you prefer a smaller drum.
Made by Eamon Maguire in Belfast.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Sometimes tune players stamp loudly to illustrate to bodhran toting numpties "This is the beat. It is not going to speed up or slow down according to your preferences. If you don't like it please feel free to annoy others somewhere else".
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Sometimes tune players stamp loudly to illustrate to bodhran toting numpties "This is the beat. It is not going to speed up or slow down according to your preferences. If you don't like it please feel free to annoy others somewhere else".
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
In my experience they do it when there is NO bodhran, or any other rhythm instrument.
And I assume some melody speakers can communicate. Much easier to say to a bad bodhran player "that's awful" rather than compound the error by making even more unnecessary noise.
Just a thought. Obviously as the best bodhran player ever, I have never encountered the scenario you described.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Do you want a prize?
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Does who want a prize?
If you meant me, certainly not. The worship I receive from my fellow musicians is reward enough.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"But today's sessions aren't as simple as you claim them to be."
Now that I agree with. And it gets back to my original point that sessions shouldn't be advertised as "open." Hell, I think sessions are odd ducks to begin with. They only came about as concessions as there were no more dancers to play for. But when I see a bunch of people at a session, I'm thinking, hey, only one of you needs to play the fiddle, the rest of you can dance.
Gran Cassa, since you are showing the obtuseness of somone brining a drum to a melody fight, do you think there are melody players ever at sessions that think, gowd, I'm so glad there is a bodhran here? And if not, why do you keep insisting that they belong?
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Tadhg,
I play music the world over. I've never witnessed a melody fight. Sounds like a roughtsession to me!
When I'm on my travels I try to get to a session. I have particularly enjoyed listening to sessions in the west coast of Ireland where, as elswhere, competent instrumentalists including bodhranists, gather together to enjoy the music.
To answer your question bluntly, there are melody players who are glad to play with a bodhran player.They do this in a spirit of bonhomie, camaraderie call it what you will. The music sounds good and is enjoyed by the players and those listening.Those playing are content ,friends and strangers alike and everyone feels they belong.
If you prefer a 'closed' session where only you and your selected band of like-minded friends can attend, you could book a room somewhere or go to someone's house.
Otherwise a session in a public house is always going to be public.
I will continue to insist bodhrans 'belong 'while I continue to hear sessions as described above.
I've stood up to ill-informed and prejudicial comments about percussion instruments and those who play them ever since I was a child and will carry on so doing. Most of the time I can simply laugh any ignorant comments off. However when people come to this forum asking about bodhrans and they read adverse comments I think it's important that they understand that these comments can be challenged with more positive offerings.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"Glad to play with a bodhran player in the spirit of bonhomie" is different than what I was asking, but thanks for making the distinction, and again, for making my point.
You can call my comments not what you want to hear, but you can't call them ill-informed. You're the one trying to make sessions to be what you want them to be, I'm just acknowledging them for what they are. And again, it's not my personal preferance, I'm a drummer, I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just sticking up for logic and common sense.
And get off the "stood up to" schtick. You're not a victim, you're the party crasher. You're mistaking politeness for "bonhomie." If you could get an honest poll of experianced Irish musicians, (and no I don't mean drummers by musicians) I doubt it would be less than 90% at the most who think bodhrans belong in sessions. Not because melody musicians are mean or oppresive or adverse or whatever other red herring you come up with, there's just a time and place for everything.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Bodhran players are naturally thick skinned. This makes them more prone than most to missunderstand what they think is the spirit of bonhomie and camaraderie with what is in actual fact, freindly tollerance.
In my town we have open and closed sessions. But the one I enjoy the most is something in between. Anyone who comes in, even drummers, get a chance. But if they fall short will be politly asked to not continue.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"Bodhran players are naturally thick skinned"?
... it thought that it was just the bodhrans that had thick skins
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You can have a perfectly good session without bodhrans, but you can't have one at all without melody players. Melody players are usually capable of keeping perfectly good time without the benefit of percussion of any kind.
All session instruments have a pecking order, or status - with fiddles being somewhere near the top, and bodhrans being somewhere near the bottom. As a bodhran player (now matter how good you are), you will always have a lowly status in the eyes of the melody players. Nothing will ever change that, so if you're not happy about being accorded a low status, it's probably better not to take up the bodhran.
Noisy celidhs are a different matter - in these circumstances percussion can be a posiitive benefit in keeping the rest of the dancers together - especially if the percussionist has a good knowlege of the dances.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I'm happy to take friendly tolerance if genuine bonhomie is not in abundance. Yes I'm thick – skinned but I'm not thick. I'm sensitive to the tunes and those playing them and I try to be especially alert to any player should they show signs of discomfort about my playing. Therefore I hope I can remedy the situation before someone has to ask me to stop playing. (That's not happened yet but I know there's always a first time!)
I'm not unduly concerned about other peoples perception of my status. I have no problem with those who play the tunes; fiddle, flute, whistle, pipes, etc. regarding themselves higher in status than the 'rhythm mongers'. Without the tunes there's not going to be a session all.
Nonetheless, I believe I have the musicianship and discipline to play an appropriate accompanying role to the tunes. I have worked at technique so that I can control what I'm doing effectively so that I can contribute something, within the limitations of the instrument to the music – I add the sound of the drum in order to enhance the rhythms made by the tunesmiths. I know very well that they don't need me to keep them in time. I also realise the importance of not playing all the time and in every tune.
I'm happy enough for people to regard the drum as being 'down the pecking order' and I'm content in acknowledging the drum's subservient role in terms of the instrumentation found in sessions.Yet while I'll happily admit to not being the best musician there I don't regard myself as being anyway inferior to my session friends.
I belong.
.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Amen
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Can you explain to me how the sound of the drum enhances the rhythms made by the tunesmiths?
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
A fair question llig and at this time of night the answer may be rambling but bear with me to the end and I'll give it a go.
Many people are drawn to drums in general because they appeal to a basic primeval instinct. Other instruments which have this draw include ancient horns. Watch next time a bodhran player starts up and notice the reaction of the crowd. It need not be loud but something about the drum gets their attention and while other instruments will get toes tapping, drums seem to trigger that response more readily.. That alone is not enough to justify it's place in the music but if we want to undestand why it's so popular we can't discount this fundamental attraction
The rhythms inherent in the tune as provided by the tunesmiths provide the same rhythmic patterns to be used on the bodhran. They don't have to be exactly the same as the tune but they can be. eg. the tune in say a reel can be made up of running 8th notes with the occasional 16ths or tirplets. The bodhran can copy the rhythm exactly or simply keep the 8th notes going or augment the rhythm and use quarter notes and half notes and vary these depending on what the tune suggests. It need not only simply 'play the tune without the pitches.'
But the drum can provide a pitch on which those rhythmic patterns play eg. grounded on the tonic note then moving to the dominant for the 'B section.To me this awareness of pitch is really important but is often overlooked. Although the instrument is deeemed to be of indefinite pitch it does give off an identifiable pitch.
To my ears this rhythmic and tonal grounding contrasting yet relating to the tune magnifies the melodic line. Sorry if all that sounds somewhat rambling and pompous but musicians writing about music is just as bad as them talking about it but I hope you can get my drift.
Another idea occured to me about the way you described the percussive nature of playing fiddles and flutes etc. As I understand it you mentoned that if you play the left hand on the fiddle and don't use the bow or you play the flute without blowing you can hear the tune and for you this gives a percussive element to the music Yes?
Of course once the bow is used and the flute is blow into that percussive sound is no longer heard. It's still there of course and it's in the tune but it's not audible. Could you accept that the bodhran can bring that back when played sensitively, and with due regard to balance, so as to underpin the tune the same way as the left hand and pads are doing? Again all this sounds a tad fanciful and convoluted way of trying to explain what I mean by enhance. Maybe enhance is not the right word but again I hope youi can catch my drift.
I love the sound of a band with a variety of instruments each adding their characteristic voice to create a great noise and for me the bodhran plays an important part with it's rhythmical colouring and that's why I play it.
For me it's such a strong natural draw as are all percussion instruments. I play melody instruments also but I'm truly more comfortable with the bodhran. I guess it's something with which you are born that defines what instrument feels 'right' for you.
Some people get it others don't. Some people will tap their feet etc at the sound of the bodhran, others will flee to the hills!
That's life I suppose.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
And get off the "stood up to" schtick. You're not a victim, you're the party crasher. You're mistaking politeness for "bonhomie." If you could get an honest poll of experianced Irish musicians, (and no I don't mean drummers by musicians) I doubt it would be less than 90% at the most who think bodhrans belong in sessions. Not because melody musicians are mean or oppresive or adverse or whatever other red herring you come up with, there's just a time and place for everything.
# Posted on February 4th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Matt Molloy LOVES playing along with me, especially as a duet. Now when that Carlos Nunez was in one night Matt and I encouraged him to give us an owl tune, but he insisted I accompany him.
Now Carlos's opinion, take it or leave it, but Matt's I would respect.
Unless he was just trying to keep up with Liam Og who really loved playing alond with me.
Much Irish music without a bodhran, a heart without a pulse.
Now the great O'Riada didn't invent the bodhran, he simply revived it when he realised that Irish music was going nowhere without that oomph.
PS: For those interested you can see photos of Matt and I enjoying ourselves on The Session.Org group on something called Facebook. Alas in the two short videos I am playing mandolin in one, and blues harp in the other.
You can't have everything.
And Mr Llig, "tunesmiths?" I luv it, like one of my own more outlandish claims.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Bodhrans are fine in ceili bands (perfered according to my actual personal tastes), pub bands and concerts, but sessions aren't any of these.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Alas, we will never agree. I have just noticed this and I have the exact opposite view.
A ceili band, certainly doesn't need a bodhran, probably doesn't need a drum as the dancers feet provides the beat.
A pub band? Electrified? Or a miced up folk group? Get a bass guitar, fills out the whole sound, a bodhran is an unnecessary "conversation" piece.
A concert. Well yes, a good trad group doing a concert the bodhran will fit.
A session? Well, at a session a bodhran is essential as it replaces the dancers feet.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Tadhg, I have read more. If top musicians dislike bodhran's, when they form groups why do they have bodhrans in them?
I mean it is another split of the money? Being socialist are they?
A good/real session is not complete without at least one bodhran.
Sure no-one would even dream of playing the likes of O'Neill's march, Gravel Walk", "Wind That shakes the barley" "Lark in the morning" or any polka or slide without a bodhran.
Unless they didn't understand the essential life of the genre.
Irish traditional music is not classical music, it is to be enjoyed in an active rather than a passive way.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Well ... here we have the polarisation defined.
"Many people are drawn to drums in general because they appeal to a basic primeval instinct. That alone is not enough to justify it's place in the music. We can't discount this fundamental attraction."
I've never denied that the bodhran can have a good place in performance music. But the argument here is about people playing and swapping tunes for themselves.
Anyway, your paragraph beginning: "Another idea occurred to me about the way you described the percussive nature of playing fiddles and flutes..." It's a bit garbled, but you seem to be suggesting that, for example, when a fiddle player lays off the more obvious percussive nature of lots of changes of bow direction, and uses just the left hand instead, you say that, "the percussive sound is no longer heard. It's still there of course and it's in the tune but it's not audible. Could you accept that the bodhran can bring that back?"
Correct me I've I've misread that, but AAAARRRGH. This is fundamental to why I hate the fecking bodhran. Something subtle happens in the tune and and the fecking bodhran railroads right over it. And has the feckin' gall to think they are doing you a favour.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I don't know what the point of dropping names is for your arguement. If the players you mentioned showed up at a session I was either playing in or listening to and you were banging away over them, I would be really mad then.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I see the point of dropping names - it's been made necessary by the anti-bodhran posters dismissing the bodhran as unwelcome in sessions.
Some of the names dropped are well-respected, and their endorsement is quite significant to some of the arguments made.
It's obviously a personal prefernce thing
..... and by the way, did I mention that when I first met Peter Horan, he told me I didn't play loud enough?
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
The Bodhran!
)
In a masters hand! , yes please, anyday, welcome.
I play with all sorts, pipers fiddlers whistle, ye gods even the guitar, but my favourite? the bodhran.
Why? Well a good player invariably knows all the tunes, has been playing day in day out for 20, 30+ yrs, He knows where the triplets are, the phrasing, etc she/he doesnt get in the way when I ornament, I can relax and push it to the edge knowing that yer man is there for me, and Im there for him. we are both there for the music , the tunes.
Basically I dont care what instrument you play, if you have the experience, and the love and respect for the music then great,welcome, and lets hope we can play well together.
As far as the anti crowd goes? well it takes all sorts I suppose . I personally cant fathom their reasons unless they are?
And I would second Peters point, a good drummer is very welcome... as long as we can feel/hear them. Otherwise what is the point? So ...come on drummers sound out. (unless you cant really play in which case I agree with other posters and would ye just feck off
But seriously, jamie. Advice? yes learn the tunes, in your head at least. Its like jazz, we have thousands of standards, each has specific rhythms, phrasing etc, each is different and a standard.
Yes, to truly compliment the tunes you need to know them its twists and turns, where it lifts. etc etc. Like in any genre there are no short cuts, its a slow steady story. Learn a tune, then another. after some years you can pick them up by ear, on the spot, because your ear is atuned to the language. Its a bit like a language, You may be fluent in German but it wont mean you can speak Spanish! You may be the best jazz player in the world but at Irish you know next to nothing.( though you may well have good learning skills developed )
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I like the bodhran when...
I like the bodhran fine in performance settings.
I also really like it in sessions when it is played very well.
Part of which includes, not playing along with every set of tunes. Not playing loudly etc.
In my experience this is very rare. I only know one bodhran player taht I think really adds to a session in this way.
I quite like the bodhran used sparingly and not overly loudly over the course of a session by a competent player.
I dislike the bodhran when...
I very much dislike a bodhran played all night on every set even when played competantly. Sitting next to such a player is like having a nagging headache all night.
Any form of percussion which can be prominantly heard over the top of the melody instruments is detrimenal to a session, unless it is for a very occasional set & probably then by request. otherwise it just makes it harder for the other musicians to hear the tune when a change comes up.
I frequently hear drummers at sessions either (a) playing competantly & simply, but loudly all night. Ironing out the sifferences between the tunes & adding background noise.
or (b) more adventurously effectively playing their own drum solo all night over the top of tunes that they clearly don't know. Even good drummers (but not drummers who are alos good trad players) can be guilty of this.
We have an awkward situation at our current session where an older fellow has started turning up most weeks with either two small or one large bongo. He can play the drums. He has no idea of how to play irish music other than the basic rythms. Whilst he doesn't play along with everything, he jions in more often than not, playing his own improvisations around jig & reel rythms all night with no thought for the particular tune in question.
Quite clearly this detracts from the music, I doubt any of the melody players think otherwise. Problem is, we don't want to upset a nice old guy. we're stuck with him as he is a mate of one of the flute players and he was treated quite rudely by a notoriously rude musicain in another session.
But it is starting to really wear me down. The only reason no-one has said anything is an overdose of decency & politeness.
I doubt I ever will say anything myself (although I would if another drummer appeared).
The point to this long winded story is: if you are taking a percussion instrument to a session ask yourself if your fellow sessioneers are similarly suffering in silence. Don't try to overpower the music, play as quietly as possible unless asked to play louder. Simple percussion is better when felt under the music than heard over it. More complicated percussion should only be tried if you know the specific tuned being played.
Don't assume you are helping the melody players by setting a rythm. Most of the time it is more likely that you are providing an obstacle to the melody musicians by obscuring the playing of the other players.
I hate to be so negative. I didn't really feel this way until the last few months brought it home to me.
Join a band. Percussion is great in performance. But if joining in with a session remember back-ing should be unobtrusively in the back-ground.
There that was quite cathartic. If anyone read this far: are you mad? Personally I'd have given up long ago
- Chris
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Was it that bad? Then again I was strategically on the other side of the table and had a wall of melody players around me.
Trouble is so much "popular music" is so percussion-based that people who know nothing about Irish music can't seem to get their heads around the fact while percussion can sound nice if done correctly, it's actually irrelevant to the structure of the music.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Well llig here goes me banging my head against the brickwall again.
It would appear that we are talking about more than one type of session and seemingly what qualities are expected from the music made in each of them.An evening of listening to tunes and tunes alone played in unison eventually becomes tiresome to my ears. I like the tunes and you've only to read my earlier posts to understand the overiding importance I attach to them over anything else in a session,but it's not enough for me and importantly many melody players agree.
Some melody players have told me that playing tunes is fine but they also like the more 'complete' sound of a band comprising melody, harmony and rhythmic instruments.They still swap tunes around, everyone listens, picks it up and gradually everyone adds their instrumental contribution and the music takes off. There's still space for solos and duets and tunes without any accompaniment which is nice. It's a sesion with variety which comes from an encompassing approach to making music in a public house where all are welcome.
If there's a good place for the bodhran in performance music I really can't see why it can't have good place in a session. Nothing is preventing the swapping of tunes which once under the melody player's belts can get out to the accompanists.
As for the percussion element in music. Well, I was trying to meet you part way with your ideas of what percussion is about but it didn't work. Suffice to say I don't agree with you that flutes and fiddles play like percussionists. Percussion instruments add their own rhythmic colouring to a band in it's own layer in the texture.Loads of players can get on with playing a tune with all their subleties and not feel hamperd by the steady beat of a bodhran
It looks like you'll never get it. That's fine. I'm not criticising. Fortunately for percussionists many people do get it.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
All this talk of percussionists spoiling a session reminds me of that old guy who used to play in Dolan's in Limerick - on cigar and tobacco tins with drumsticks - EVERY SINGLE night! If you liked percussion , he was OK and just about tolerable (decent timing, seemed to be familiar with the tune), for the first pint - after that, he was all over the place!
I'd LOVE to have seen llig meet him!
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"it's actually irrelevant to the structure of the music."
IMO that is a complete reversal of reality. Its the other way round. The Bodhran, the rhythm , the drum and voice are the root of the music. As a dancer a good drummer is enough , a clear rhythm is paramount. all the technical fiddleyde stuff is worth nothing without a clear steady rhythm. Many many musicians cant keep a beat, sad but true, you can keep yr rolls and cranns etc, we just want the groove thanks. A jig with lift, at the right pace, a reel with life and verve.
The ornaments and all that are additional to a steady groove, Its sad that some musicians dont get this simple fact. IMOAMOTrad is fore-most dance music.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Um, the drum is not at the root of the music. *Rhythm" is, of course, but not drums. Yes, many melody players cannot keep time (I have been guilty of this one myself -- when you are learning this music you tend to through phase of being horrible at timing) but that is lack of mileage/skill/whatever on their part. A good melody player can keep time and the rhythm, which, as Michael has said a zillion times, are inherent in the melodies and the way you play instruments. I don't mind good drummers at a session but you can have great music without it. You can't have a decent session without the melody players (and competent ones at that).
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Chris, that's the best advice on this whole thread. "Suffering in silence" indeed. It's easy to tell someone to stop playing if they're an eedjit, or drunk, or both, but if it's a nice person who comes to the session regularly, I would go to great lengths not to hurt that person's feelings. The social aspect of the session has great importance too. It's really quite a dilemma.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Melody players may sometimes have trouble with rythm
But that's nothing compared to the problems that percussionists have playing the tune
emily, it was pretty bad. The problem is is is almost incessant and appears to have a mind of its own. It is not in any way intergrated into the music, just rather obtrusively sitting on top of it. Granted the individual in question isn't playing full whack (unike the young guy that has come in twice just before closing: & who cares, if an entire steel band come sin at 1:40 when everyone is about to go home anyway), and not absolutely insensitive.
But whenever only one person was playing on the other side of tha table, and the others are struggling to hear what the tune is, all you could hear was the drum.
I will grant that I overstated some things a little. I know one bodhran player who is an outsanding addition to a session. I have known others that I have enjoyed having at a session, and not just fro their company, but because they didn't overpower.
- Chris
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Bliss: Are you mad?
he said affectionatey
Drums are the centerpiece of a ceili band. The most important components of a ceili band (IMHO):
1- drumer
2- someone competent & happy to call the dances if necessary hopefully also a melody player, but not "1" or "3" so they can continue to call during the dance if needed.
3- hopefully a strong box player of some description
4- everybody else
Although of course I'd take snare drum etc over bodhran in a ceili band. I hate listening to ceili style snare drumming, but it is a tremendous boost to a ceili band.
You can maybe get away without drums if you are playing fro dedicated dancers. Playing for family events, fund raisers, charity etc. bring a drum kit.
Ionannas, I would agree with your statement above about a good bodhran player. They can be greatto play with. Part of being a good bodhran player is knowing when to play. That appears to be the most difficult thing for beginners to learn. Many appear to think you learn "reel" & "jig" and that qualifies you to play along with every example of those tunes that rears its head all night.
No melody player would think that. They learn each tune individually. If a biginning bodhran player jioned in as frequently as a beginning melody player then there would be no problem. (Actually joining in a bit more than that would be ok too, but I'm puttingt he point in its bones).
In some posts the discussion has broadened out to accomp in general. I'd broaden it even further: if you play any instrument that can drown a ession, play it with care. Don't flood the session with loud piano box chord, or a too heavily strummed guitar. Or melody on GHB etc etc.
- Chris
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I don't know what the point of dropping names is for your arguement. If the players you mentioned showed up at a session I was either playing in or listening to and you were banging away over them, I would be really mad then.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Bad, but frequent, mistake Tadhg. If Tiger Woods says "I just said to Mickelson" the other day is he name dropping, or simply commenting on people he meets all the time due to his chosen life style? So when Matt and Liam Og say "I was playing with Bliss the other night" they are not name dropping, just talking about mutual friends.
You can maybe get away without drums if you are playing fro dedicated dancers. Playing for family events, fund raisers, charity etc. bring a drum kit.
Posted on February 5th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
I would agree with that.
# Posted on February 5th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
As I said before, the polarisation is clear. Of course a whole evening of listening to tunes and tunes alone becomes tiresome on any-ones' ears. I couldn't do it.
So it's hardly surprising that:
a. people would rather join in than just listen.
And b: big hearted philanthropists strive to make it easier on the ear for Joe Punter. Nae, thrive on pleasing poor old Joe.
Me? I don't diss Joe, it's just that he's not in the picture. I like to play tunes with people who like to play tunes. I like to play tunes with my mates who I've been playing tunes with for years. And I like to play tunes with visitors to the session who like to play tunes.
It's as simple as that. And anything that gets in the way of that is at best a distraction, at worst, an end to it.
Is it selfish? Of course it's bloody selfish. So what?
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Imagine a bloke fly fishing in a small upland stream ...
"You'll be there all day mate. Try this?" Pulls out a stick of dynamite.
Imagine a bloke who's seriously into model railways. He's built an incredibly detailed set in his attic ...
"Awe ... don't be so selfish ... Let the kids play with it."
"But they'll wreck it!"
Imagine a bloke contemplating his plate of the most exquisite sushi ...
"Euuughh ... you can't eat raw fish" And he squeezes Heinz tomato ketchup all over it.
Imagine a bloke driving round a race track he knows like the back of his hand. And someone sits next to him and witters in his ear all way round telling him what gear to take what corner ...
Imagine sitting in the pub with your mates and someone comes in ..
"Just take a look at those faces behind you .. they are so bored." So he gets out a simple feckin frame drum and smothers the delicacy of intricate interplay of breath and fingertips,. by hitting the thing with a bloody stick.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
hey you are not mad after all Bliss. I'm so relieved
- chris
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
As someone said above (and was not answered) "So you would apply that to any accompaniment then?"
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by David50
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
llig,
I can't help hearing your last post in the style of a M&S tv advert, but with the punchline "Its not just any post, it's a Michael Gill post".
- Chris (hoping that those "imagine.." etc adverts are actually for M&S, and not for some other shop)
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
ha ha, yes, I love those M&S ads.The photography is outstanding
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Mornig llig,
here goes again.
The drum needs to be played delicately when the other musicians are so doing and it can be played just as delicately.
I will condemn as readily as you anyone smothering the delicacy of intricate interplay of breath and fingertips (Maaaatron!)
I must admit I don't often experience such finesse at the sesions I go to - my loss.
Of course I understand you feeling hacked off when an insensitive non musician railroads through what you and your mates are doing. Fair enough, but it's not just bodhran players who can ruin a session.
No instrument is a musical instrument unless it's in the hands of a musician.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You are confusing delicatly with quetly. You can pick up a needle from the floor with your fingers. You can even do it with your lips. Try doing it with the end of a stick.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Maybe ... just maybe ... the reason you don't often experience such finesse at the sesions you go to .... is because you go to them.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
And I never feel hacked off when an insensitive non musician railroads through us. It never lasts for more than a set, often less than that. They just get politely asked to stop.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You are to Liam and Matt as Tiger is to Phil?!?!?!?!?!?!
I thought you were trying to dispel the notion of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes? If you don't want people to think of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes, then quit saying obtuse thick headed wannabe things.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Delicate, accurate, careful, considerate, discreet, refined, sensitive. Your thesaurus will have these definitions same as mine and yep, I can play my drum in this way and that will naturally suggest quietly as well..... and with a stick. I use 'hot rods', or very fine bamboo slivers etc. when I wish to be delicate.
I've just tried and I can pick up a needle with my sawn off hot rod stick ( fine wooden strands bonded as one unit) one handed I prised them apart at the ends and, rather like one of those arcade games, used them as a grabber. ( Took a few goes, mind).
Now tell me how you are going to do that task with a fiddle bow.
As for finesse. Well let's just say there are degrees of it in music making but for the ultimate in musical finesse I go and listen to something other than what I normally hear in the pub sessions I DO attend.
Sorry. Is 'hacked of'f' too strong a term?
Tadhg, old chap calm down. If you don't understand something, you only have to ask. It's just I don't care too much for insults. Thanks.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Ok ligg, saved you the bother looking for the needle Behind The Haystack or wherever you keep yours
I
've just picked up a needle with a fiddle bow. (Took a few goes though). isn't music fun?!
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You are to Liam and Matt as Tiger is to Phil?!?!?!?!?!?!
I thought you were trying to dispel the notion of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes? If you don't want people to think of bodhran players as obtuse thick headed wannabes, then quit saying obtuse thick headed wannabe things.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Oops, touched a nerve did I?
Look if you have run out of constructive things to say just say nothing, instead of attempting to insult me.
And just to show no hard feelings Tadgh I have written a song for you;
"I could have been someone, sure so could anyone........."
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Nice one BB ! And Hey, Jamie,if you're still out there, I would strongly support 'Newdeafman's' post - go to Bodojo.com for all your needs. And enjoy!
Good luck with the quest.
# Posted on February 6th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Oooh, the power of analogy ... just because you can pick up a needle with your dafy little bundle of twigs.
And just in case your english teacher is watching, you use a thesarus to find words similar to each other. If you want to find what a word means, you use a dictionary.
1. fine in texture, quality, construction, etc.: a delicate lace collar.
2. fragile; easily damaged; frail: delicate porcelain; a delicate child.
3. so fine as to be scarcely perceptible; subtle: a delicate flavor.
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Aaaah, What's the matter llig? Just because you chose to offer up an analogy that didn't uphold your argument.
In case your english teacher is watching, it's spelt thesaurus and it's another useful tool one can use understand the subltlties of language.
However I'm disappointed that the discussion has turned to petty arguments about the use of english rather than furthering our musical understanding.
Furthermore if you are going to set me more tasks to prove my worth I hope I get the hand in marriage of a beautiful princess whose land stretches as far as the eye can see as a prize!
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Yes, I'm sorry it's turned to petty arguments about the use of english also. Analogies, by their very nature, are bound to fall at some point. When that happens, you try another analogy, as I've done on this thread. It's very frustrating. I think I'm being clear.
Let's just strip itback to basics:
The best bodhran players immitate, nae, reproduce the rhythm of the tunes very well. The argument is that it's pointless. Because the rhythm/percussion is already there, in the tune. If you are or ar capable of being a very good bodhran player, why waste your time with only half of the music?
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Mr Gill wrote
"The argument is that it's pointless. Because the rhythm/percussion is already there, in the tune. If you are or ar capable of being a very good bodhran player, why waste your time with only half of the music?"
so by that logic...
If there is one melody player in a session already then why do you need to add another because you all play exactly the same tune?
Michael I do have to say that I find your comments to be elitist and patronising. If you do not enjoy the presence of a bodhran at a session then that's fine, many others do enjoy the sound of the drum. Your opinion is well noted here, there is no need to keep harping on about it.
There is a section on the www.bodojo.com bodhran website for melody players where we seek their input and comments without insult. The site aims to develop responsible players to counter the vitriol that you delight in pouring upon our instrument.
I invite you to join us and have a sensible non-judgemental discussion, you can have your questions answered there about why bodhran players enjoy the drum and what we feel we contribute to sessions.
At the end of the day no matter how much you jump up and down about this, we're not going to disappear, you may be better off getting used to a drum being there.
Paul
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by powerhaus
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Mr Llig, much Irish music is performed in public. Now the odd musician might notice the rhythm in the music, but the majority of people will not.
But they do recognise a drum providing a beat.
So, un;less we are all to become ultra purists and play in sealed off rooms, I think we have to accept the bodhran.
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I think we should work with the sealed off room idea. I was wondering: obviously you don't mean airtight, do you? Also how would you seal off the room securely enough so that a bodhran player couldn't get in? I don't think nails would be strong enough. All the bodhran player would have to do is use his head like a battering ram, and down goes the door. Ideas?
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by Dr. Dow
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
And on and on it goes, really, John Cooper Clarke had the right idea Jamie
I don't want to be nice
I think it's clever to swear
Better seek some sound advice
Better look elsewhere
www.bodojo.com
# Posted on February 7th 2009 by newdeafman
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Things I am not interested in (in no particular order):
- bad bodhran playing
- people who say things like, "So by that logic ..." when they don't understand a simple argument.
- internet sites devoted to bodhrans
- what bodhran players, good or bad, feel "they" contribute to sessions.
- people who use the argument, "It's here, get used to it"
- Joe Punter (especially Joe who doesn't "notice the rhythm in the music".
Things I am interested in:
- the tunes
- people who play tunes
- why people who profess to like tunes, refuse to even try to play them.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
That's excellent Mr Llig.
To be happy in life, avoid pubs, clubs, kitchens or indeed anywhere likely to feature Irish music.
The Irish unfortunately try to enjoy themselves.
And many like tunes, but realise they sound dull without a bodhran. So they set out to improve the product, and are generally worshipped by an adoring public for doing so.
Melody players however, as I have said many times, resent this adoration and take a sulk. They adopt an "it took me thirty years to learn the fiddle, and then the public prefer some eejit on a drum" attitude.
Serves then right for performing in public.
Can't blame bodhran players for that.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Yes, many people profess to the liking of tunes. Yes, Joe Punter often prefers it with a drum. And Yes, I've met tune players who resent the adoration that drummers get. Such melody players should, of course, eschew their fiddles and flutes and just play the drum instead. They'd be idiots not to.
It all depends on what you want to get out of it.
Me? I like playing tunes. And I'm not interested in Joe Punter.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
As noted on a nearby discussion, percussion seems to be part of the performance for some melody players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96bKIE37gwQ
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by David50
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Me? I like playing tunes. And I'm not interested in Joe Punter.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
And I like playing the bodhran, and a few tunes when the mood takes me.
And I respect Joe Punter because I am playing in his habitat.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I respect Joe too and I wouldn't like to spoil his evening in the pub we share
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"Things I am not interested in (in no particular order):
.....
Things I am interested in:
.....
"
I love this! it could be two sides of a tee shirt, Micheal.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by folkmasterflex
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
But Mr Llig you have told us countless times that you are oblivious to punters, so why the feigned concern?
Don't bother to reply "Touche" Mr llig.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I've never said oblivious. Disinterest yes, but you can still have respect. Though, of course, "respect" in no way implies concern, and certainly no pandering too.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Well Mr. Gill, your elitism blows my tiny mind - yes you guessed it, I play bodhran. But then there's tiny minds and then there's tiny minds. I wouldn't want to share a session with you, so rest assured on that. Why dont you just play your superlative music in a quiet room with your fellow thinkers and in the safe knowledge that none of the rest of us will be trying to find a way in.
All very revealing, but just goes on and on and leads me to wonder what you do for fun..... and no, I don't want to know.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I expected a rapid and forceful reply but I guess you are treating my comments with the contempt they deserve. That's your right.
I just think you are missing something, and I also think no one of us can do anything about that. Sad but true.
Gran Cassra said it all so much better than I ever could - so if you have a moment to spare, and want to learn something, and I know that's unlikely, scroll back to the post of 5 February, and write it out a hundred times, and give us all a rest.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hey everyone, let's spare a thought for Jamie 311 in all of this vitriole. He deserved better coming here for some serious advice and we should be ashamed of ourselves. If you are still there Jamie, as an already established percussionist, go to Bodojo.com, and give yourself a break !
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
This thread is fantastic entertainment! ROTFLMFAO!!!
I'm learning mandolin for the melody & guitar for backing
I've played bodhran for about 10 years. Drums all my life.
I'm gonna have to learn to rattle the bones & spoons one of these days. It's not a high priority though.
Then I have a bouzouki, tin whistle and irish flute on my wish list. I'd kinda like to learn how to play a cello too but I don't know if I'll live long enough to get good at it. (That Natalie Haas is amazing huh?)
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I keep saying that in Sarah Palin's voice, over and over again: "...Joe Punter, Joe Bodhran..."
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Joe Lightbulb: http://www.palinaspresident.us/
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
You might enjoy these Jamie.
Seamus O'Kane - Bodhran.
1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIXuL4IU2Hk
2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLLB9M9kmFo&feature=related
3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKDfNm4Tt2U&feature=related
4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW74MZmISvo&feature=related
5 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVGL7qx2unI&feature=related
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Quite right longlegs.
Jamie, for what it's worth, I'm sorry you've had to wade through this mire. The mustard board is usually better than this.
I hope you manage to find yourself a decent piece of kit.
All the best.
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hey longlegs, sorry for not replying, I thought this thread had died
I'm glad you wouldn't want to play with me. That's one more off the list. And if we're lucky, the original poster should be realising the pointlessness of the instrument and getting turned off the thing too.
And me and my mates do play in a quiet room (most of the time) in a pub ... It's what we do for fun. Playing tunes, especially when you can hear yourselves uncluttered by pointless noise, is fun.
And far from being elitist, I'd like to share the fun of playing tunes and get more people into it.
Jamie 311 came here for some serious advice, and I'm giving it.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Apropo tunes on a Jews Harp & the 'great fluting and mouth harping' thread:
Jamie wrote:
"I have viewed a few bodhran soloists within the past months. It appears that the ability to manipulate the instruments tone is somewhat easy by meriliy pushin on the back side of the head. Would this not be adding melody to the product."
If this 'IS' possible, then, with ALL the Bodhran players that are out there, can someone please direct me to a YouTube or sound file of a Bodhran player who is actually playing a TUNE solo, that we can recognize?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I rest my case. Do us all a favour though. When you feel impelled to give some serious advice next time, count up to ten, and then leave subjects alone where your expertise doesn't quite come up to scratch. You were simply trying to undermine a legitimate enquiry and steer it off into your own choice of direction, yet again.
By so doing you sour the mustard pages for the rest of us.
And guess what...it gets boring. Learn a different tune, why don't you.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Longlegs,
I think Michaels point is a valid one that should be considered. If you don't already play a melody instrument and are primarily interested in the traditional instrumental music of ireland (as opposed to singing).
Then it is worthwhile asking yourself: in the long term would I not be better learning a melody instrument.
Of course having asked yourself that question, if the honest answer is "no it is the bodhran I want to be playing", then by all means get yourself a bodhran. But it is important to ask yourself that question.
Llig may well stand at one end of the bodhran-appreciation-scale, but it will do a new bodhran player no harm to know that this sliding scale of appreciation does exist.
Bear in mind that this is "thesession.org" not "bodhran.org". If you ask a bunch of session musicians their opinions on taking up the bodhran then their advice will vary somewhat more than the advcie given from aq group of dedicated bodhran players. If Lligs response had been made on a bhodran discussion group it would have been out of place, but not on this site.
I play a not universally popular instrument myself (banjo). If someone were to post here that they were considering taking up the banjo, some may suggest they rather prioritise the fiddle or flute as more appropriate. Fair play sez I, this is a group for sessioneers af all instruments after all.
- Chris
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Isn't there a danger though rambler, in all of this prioritising, that ITM sessions in years to come will comprise of ONLY just a load of old tight arsed Uilleann Pipe, Fiddle & Flute nit-pickers?
I say Vive la Différence!
After all, diversity & natural selection has done a pretty good job of bringing us this far!
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Sure thing ptarmigan.
If I could start again I'd go for button box.
My favourite instrument for irish music.
At the end of the day I'm not going to be bound by Comrade O'Riarda's far more educated opinion. Although I'm glad to have heard his opinion.
Cheers - Chris
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Just remember Chris that good old Seán passed away in 1971 & ITM has changed just a little since then. So is his opinion still as valid, in today's context? Hmmmmmmmm
As for the Button Box, I'd say you are never too old to start again! ........ you should go for it!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Longlegs, you may question my viewpoint, you may even question my integrity. All up for a good discussion. But never my relevance.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hi Ptarmi,
I hope to, on the box. I got a birthday card last month from my wife & daughter with the message "we owe you an accordeon".
I asked a box playing freind for advice & he offered to lend me a c/c# box. which would be ideal as it will allow me to find out if I can actaully make the time to learn a new instrument; and also to see whether I prefer c#/d or b/c fingering before actually shelling out for a box.
Cheers - chris
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
So onwards & upwards it is then Chris.
Have fun.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Llig, I wouldn't dream of doubting your integrity, and I'm sorry if it appeared so.
But relevance, well that might be another matter. Why not get really relevant and found your own site? I promise not to visit....
My main grumble is that you tried to hijack what was a genuine request for help and that it added sweet nothing.
Be happy and live and let live is all I ask.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"Bodhran advice anyone?"
"Yeah, don't bother. Learn to play thge tunes instaed."
Can you get more relevant than that?
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
My my my, this is a bit bitter sweet.
Once met a guy with a bodhran who said "I can play but I'm not John Jo Kelly" Didn't hear him play but he did look nothing like him so he was probably right!!
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by Kathryn35
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
And he might have aspired to play like John Jo, and given time and encouragement he might have surpassed him. JJK started somewhere once. Would reading the last 1000 posts here have put him off? No. And lets thank our lucky stars for that. And I know he is accomplished on other instruments, as many other bodhran players are, but I would suspect that the bodhran would be his instrument of choice. I also suspect that llig would gladly make room for JJ at any session and bite his lip. Or would he ask the visitor to shut up as he was superfluous ?
In spite of all efforts to deter, I shall go on, as sensitive to the music and the situation as I can be. I will always try to be aware of the feelings of others, by asking them, and I will try to avoid sessions where more than one fiddle is present, just in case they are out of sinc. There's more than one kind of hell on this earth.
"yeah, don't bother JJ. Learn the tunes instead".......
Mc Knowall's post on 2nd Feb. said it better than I ever could.. A WET SOCK FULL OF PORRIDGE.
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by longlegs
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I saw JJ recently at Celtic connections and he was great. The concert should really have been a nightmare: three tenor banjos, a guitar & a bodhran, but it was wonderful.
Not sure it'd be the ideal line up for the average session though
# Posted on February 11th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
As far as I know, JJ plays a variety of instruments as well as beating the goat!!!!!
# Posted on February 12th 2009 by Kathryn35
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
we had a great craic at a session last night swapping stories about curious 'instruments' we'd all encountered - these included someone playing 'The Seagull' on a combination of plastic piping and heads, american tunes on a bicycle pumps, etc. - and the tone on the conversation was a mixture awestruck and respectful.
But would our eyes light up if someone sat down at the table with such an instrument? Unlikely.
A player who has complete mastery over their instrument combined with great taste will generally be welcome at any session, even if this is a dulcimer or a bohdran or a washboard. In the wrong hands (ie the majority), such instruments are just session kryptonite.
FMF
PS I wouldn't put it past 'Llig' to ask JJ to tone it down if he was getting carried away - he's nothing if not consistent!
# Posted on February 12th 2009 by folkmasterflex
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Hey folkmasterflex, if Llig didn't ......... I know I would!
I assume this is the kind of Bodhran playing you are talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n9DF4HWjV4&feature=related
That's fine for a gig on stage, but in your ear when your playing a few quiet tunes down the pub .........NO CHANCE!
If I had that in my ear at a session, I'm sorry but it'd be either him or me!
That said, I have no doubt that Eamon Murray & JJ are well able & have the common sense, to play quietly & with tact, in a quiet session situation.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 12th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Ptarmigan, that was AMAZING!!! That guy would be welcome at my session any day.
# Posted on February 12th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Ha ha, I remember when I was a kid, and going to see every band that played, there was a great tradition of drum solos. I remember at first, thinking it was a bit strange that the rest of the band would walk off stage. And then realising that the audience was wandering off to the bar as well.
I'd paid my money, I was gonna watch Cozey Powell whackin his drums upside down in a strange cage thing that was suspended above the stalls. But the rest of the band wasn't gonna watch it.
So ... to the clip above. Some impressionable fellow was impressed enough to film it and post it on you tube. But the poor thwacker's band mates couldn't be arsed even sharing the stage with it. Sure they clapped when they came back. But if they really thought it was good, you'd have thought that they'd have at least stayed on the stage to give it some support. Rather than leaving the stage and encouraging the audience to leave too.
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
Maybe Eamon dosn't smoke an it's the only chance for a ciggie during the set?
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by Kathryn35
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
even if i was gasping for a smoke, I wouldn't walk out on some good playing
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
nice playing... try doing that on a fiddle!
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"... whackin his drums upside down in a strange cage thing that was suspended above the stalls"
You mean like this Llig?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WURSJ4ZDYKM
I wonder, did JJ ever try that stunt?
But seriously, here's an insight into real drumming & remember this guy's working TWO sticks & both feet on numerous drums & cymbals.
On the other hand, a Bodhran player has just one stick & one wee drum to worry about, so let's be honest folks ...... how hard could it be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YexaQsaCrU
N.B. Watch out for his "big stir of swirlyness"
Incidentally, I wonder how John Coltrane's '26-2' would come together, on the Bodhran?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy2l_T74Vx4
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
"nice playing... try doing that on a fiddle!" Hey Ionannas, here's a guy trying that very thing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHxVHq79ER8
Now can't you just picture Bodhran Bliss & Llig, doing this on stage at next year's Celtic Connections festival?
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
# Posted on February 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bodhran Advice Anyone?
I played the Bore- ON for 10 years before saying to the self..SELF its time to make the effort to learn tunes..It now hangs on my wall and thats where it stays unless the self gets nostalgic andbangs along to a CD when bored..
.. Playing the Bodhran may me a good path to the music, but I cant understand those ancient Bodhran players who never pick up a whistle or Fiddle or whatever. Whers the Hunger for the Choons? How can you profess to be the rythem at the epicentre at the heart of the soul of ITM choons and not progress to playing them. Laziness?? just like smoking cannibis is a good intro drug b4 forming a PROPER crack habit..Why not just bypass the first and go staright to the Crack..At least then you dont have to be self concious about your drug/instrument cuz yer not hardcore enuf. Notice not many people give off about the Flute or the Fiddle or the Pipes on this site. Nor do Flute players Fiddlers Pipers etc ask others in the ITM community to regularly
recognise or legitimise their musical endevours. Why is that
# Posted on April 5th 2009 by Miss Mulligan