He is a great fiddler, I really want to get into listening to his music but I can't because (this maybe just my ears) but he plays a lot of notes out of tune.
Anyone else thimk this?
As far as bowing and ornamentation go, I can't think of anyone better
...Out of tune with 12 tone equal temperament which only became popular in Irish music with the introduction of the piano and guitars etc... so if we were going to view what is correct in terms of length of practice, then what Tommy is doing is much more correct and certainly older within this genre.
The 12 TET of piano's and accordions etc... is not the only way but one way. Thankfully we've Tommy to thank for a modern day realisation of that..
Check out the preface to The Frank Roach Collection for a contemporous account of this change happening and if you get a chance to visit the Irish Music Archive, check out Dr. Richard Henebry's book on the subject.
And as soon as I perfect a technique for bending notes on accordion that doesn't leave my fingers sore, I'll be straight on the band wagon!
When I decided to play the Fiddle... I decided to learn completely by ear. I think this helped a lot with my immersion into the music... and develop an unhealthy obsession of listening to recordings of various fiddle players (in tune or no)
I've kinda lost the need for pitch perfect music these days... and not regretting it one bit.
Gotta agree with Martin T. Have a listen to the old Clare fiddlers: Bobby Casey, Paddy Canny, P.J.Hayes etc. and you'll hear how far towards classical 12 TET we've moved in fifty years, and how far from an old, uniquely-Irish tradition that movement has been. Tommy Peoples' intonation falls somewhere between the extremes of old-style and 12 TET.
Even more relevant I suppose would be old recordings of Johnny Doherty, Neilidh Boyle etc. Hardcore Donegal fiddlers who definitely had nothing to do with 12 TET.
Whilst not saying any of the above is wrong, I think there's often a great deal of rubbish talked about equal temperament and just intonation in the context of traditional music and fiddle in particular. Some people seem to use it as an excuse for the fact that they can't play in tune.
Most fiddlers are more or less out of tune quite a bit of the time. (Start listening hard to those third finger notes!) What matters is whether or not it sounds good.
I would very much like to see an analysis of the pitch variation of a good fiddler in context of the actual differences between just intonation and equal temperament.
Has anyone come across such a thing?
A violin teacher once told me that someone did some sort of pitch analysis on a Stefan Grapelli recording and it was discovered he had pretty much perfect intonation.
Buy The Quiet Glen and play it a few times. What you're calling "out of tune" is all part of the character of Tommy's playing. There is a consistency of intonation within the amazingly-characterful playing that begins to sound clear and sweet with a little repeated listening. Generally, he hasn't been served well by recordings, but the one I mention is the glorious exception. It's my favourite ITM CD.
Fair point ref consistency Michael, but there are a lot of fiddlers who consistently pinch their their third finger notes slightly flat. Not sure that makes it "in tune"!
Tom
It depends on the context in which you're playing. If you're in the mix with fixed pitch instruments then your intonation has to be equal temperament or you'll sound out of tune. If it's all strings then you can indulge in a "sweeter temperament" - just intonation. This mostly means flattening the 3rds and sharpening the 7ths. You'll find a lot of discussion on this topic on the classical fiddle sites. String players need to adjust their intonation from playing say in a string quartet to playing with a piano.
As for playing consistently in tune. I once read that someone had performed an analysis on Heifitz's playing and was quite shocked to discover that even he, with the reputation for the truest intonation, was not perfectly in tune all the time. The important thing is that he corrects his fingering so quickly nobody notices. That is until some nerd with a pitch analyser goes and slows down a recording.
Do you guys have any specific recordings of Tommy Peoples in mind with which you have intonation issues ?
I've played recordings of Tommy Peoples to a couple of musicians who have expressed interest in Irish music, and they simply can't hear the music, they just hear dissonance and harsh-sounding ornamentation. I always thought he sounded wild. Wild in a way that made the hairs stand up on the back of your neck. Intonation never seemed to be an issue, and it strikes me that if you're listening to the likes of Tommy P. and analysing intonation you're missing something fundamental. This is the sound of the untamed Atlantic Shore, not some Salzburg Conservatory.
Harps have fixed intonation. Have they been tuned to equal temperament since the 18th century when equal temperament was 'discovered', or only more recently? Just wondering whether it's really only since the introduction of pianos and guitars that fiddle players have had to adapt their playing to equal temperament.
a further thought to add my previous post - I suppose it could be that harps, no matter how they were tuned, did not traditionally play dance music along with fiddles, and that it's the ensemble playing that is a recent development. Any historians out there...?
Accomplished singers and fiddle players can listen and adapt to different accompanying temperaments. Great composers would never have written violin sonatas for a start had this not been the case. Even harmonica players can listen and do some adjusting to some extent. Part of the appreciation side of ITM is the fact that little tensions arise from tiny clashes in intonation. Ever heard a whistle perfectly-pitched on every note? This is not the same thing as some clod playing flat all night. If you listen to Tommy Peoples and call him out of tune you're listening wrong, using some inapplicable reference point from outside ITM. Enjoy the wildness!
Lissagriffin - Even though harps are fixed pitch, they (obviously) only have 7 notes per octave at a time (in general!) Those seven notes can either be tuned to equal temperament, or just intonation or whatever you like for the "key" you're in. It's really only when you get to chromatic instruments of fixed pitch, ie keyboards etc, that temperament etc becomes a big issue.
I play pedal steel guitar and dealing with tempered tuning is a big issue - you should see the discussions on the pedal steel forum!
It is something that every newcomer to the instrument has to grapple and come to terms with. Most people beginning the instrument will practise on their own for a period of time when they will usually instinctively tune and play in just intonation, The problems start when they begin to play in bands where there is a keyboard. This is where a lot of players hit a wall. They must learn to temper their tuning. If they don't they'll get fired and arguments about "interesting dissonances" just won't cut it.
Having gone through all this pain myself I'm particularly intolerant to people playing out of tune. It hurts! It's amazing how many guitar players don't realise that certain chord shapes should be avoided like the plague. Minor 3rd intervals on a guitar - yikes!
Now I'm off to listen to Tommy Peoples. The little bit of him I've heard with the Bothy Band sounded fine I think. Now I have to go and have a proper listen.
Ok, well, as I heard somebody say in a documentary TV program posted on YouTube when asked who does Tommy Peoples sound like. The reply was, "he sounds like Tommy Peoples". I'll just leave it at that.
Says I play out of tune if looking at equal temperament, but perfectly in tune if just temperament. I could you have told you that anyway. All pianos sound horribly out of tune to me.
Of course there is beer temperament too, but that comes later in the night.
This is a very interesting and enlightening debate about temperaments and explains a lot about the playing of the likes of Bobby Casey, Paddy Canny, Johnny Doherty, etc. To the un-initiated applying classical norms, then there may appear to be some dissonance but to someone who understands the tradition this is how the music would have been played before we were introduced to the straight jacket of concert pitch.
As for Tommy Peoples (and I don't want to get into this sterile debate on grading trad players), in my opinion he is the greatest living trad fiddler. He can do the technical stuff but there's also a "draíocht" in his music that very few can achieve. His compositional abilities are also extraordinary and he has recently branched out into song-writing as shown on the recent Sé Mo Laoch RTE programme.
The Green Linnet CD was an excellent recording (although my copy has gone AWOL) but I remember some great new tunes like "The Fat Cat" and "The Mouse in the Attic", also a lovely new reel "Beautiful Gortree" and what about the lovely air, "The Jocelyn Tree" which he sometimes also plays as a jig.
Just Intonation means that the intervals in the scale can be described by whole number frequency ratios. It’s not widely used outside medieval and early renaissance Church music because it has a reputation for being cumbersome and not very flexible. Irish fiddle playing is typically not equal temperament, but it’s definitely NOT just intonation either. Frequently certain passages approximate the natural scale, and so are non-equal temperament, and as in Classical music leading notes are often ‘retuned’, such as the more sharpened G# leading to A. Also, as in Scottish West Highland fiddle music, G# in the key of A might be played more natural, tending towards the natural of the mixolydian bagpipe scale. C# and F# (in the key of D) are often played slightly natural, as is common in Irish Fiddling in general. Irish music (in common with most norther European fiddling) also employs deliberately discordant notes for effect, which are deliberately outside the scale of the tune. All this said, it is still possible to have poor intonation. And Tommy Peoples doesn’t have great intonation.
"I certainly wouldn't steer you away from Altan or Peoples on the grounds that they are less authentic! It's just that Peoples' style is so distinctive that you may end up sounding more like him than like the majority of Donegal fiddlers. And as for Altan, the pace of the music is so fast that I fear you will miss what's actually happening with the bow. I think that it is only after inspecting Doherty that you will appreciate what Altan are doing. I invite you to try and play along with one of their tracks without slurring any notes!
Tommy Peoples is not really from heartland of Donegal fiddling and, as the above quote implies, is a style unto himself, having little or nothing in common with any of the old West Donegal styles (except that he bows every note and play without rhythm, in common with a much simplified version of John Doherty’s distinctive playing.) John Doherty’s own playing is not greatly representative of the old Donegal style, which had a heavily swung rhythm. John Doherty played reels without much swing, a style he borrowed from James Scott Skinner’s playing of pipe reels which was influenced by the Scottish military piping of the new Highland Regiments. Mickey Doherty is played more like their father Michael, in the old Rosses style, with swing. The new dogma of Donegal fiddle writing is that Mickey must got the swing from Michael Coleman’s playing, because the only authentic Donegal styles conform to the John Doherty paradigm. (Caoimhín Mac Aoidh’s work is behind much of this account of Donegal fiddle history, according to which nearly everything goes back to John Doherty. A different, more balanced, and in many ways more accurate account can be found in a sadly out of print book: The Northern Fiddler, by Allen Feldman & Eamonn O'Doherty. The two accounts of where to divide up the boundaries of Donegal sub-styles are completely opposed to each other.)
Listen to Neillidh Boyle’s playing, he was a much greater influence on the playing style of the Rosses in the 1970s than John Doherty was. Similarly, Máiread Ní Mhaonaigh does not play in the Gweedore style of her father. She is much more influenced by the John Doherty style, and even more so by the simplified version we find in Paddy Glackin, and by the Tommy Peoples’ atypical style. And until the recent revivalist movement in South Donegal that has fixed dubious rules for Donegal playing, such as “no swing, no slurring, no finder ornamentation,…”, this type of playing was far from the norm in Donegal. All of these outlawed things are features of the non-John Doherty styles, and even he did slur notes and use finger ornamentation, though not as much as the was typical of the Rosses style. And if you compare Paddy Glackin, Tommy Peoples, or Máiread Ní Mhaonaigh’s playing with old recordings of highlands, they have rounded off the strong Scottish rhythms and play them like the Austrian barndances popular in East Donegal in the 1900s. No wonder people have difficulty telling highlands apart from hornpipes and reels. Listen to the brilliant album “The Brass Fiddle”, and consider whether these styles of music are really being preserved in the midst of this new enthusiasm for ‘Donegal fiddle’. Under the influence of this revivalist movement, even some older players in South Donegal are abandoning the swing completely like Tommy Peoples, and over-emphasising the off beat. By all means listen to Tommy Peoples if you like his style. If you are interested in the traditional Donegal style there are quite a few older recordings that you should listen to.
whistleblower, that's a great post. Very educational. Thank you very much.
But I've got to wonder who are these people who "outlaw" various elements in a style? Reminds me of the old "is it country" and "Hank never done it that way" furore in country music - hilarious.
That a style is in constant flux and evolution is only a sign of its good health. It's only when all fiddle players start to sound the same that we need to worry.
I love to listen to Tommy P. He is unique and irreplaceable. His place in the history of the tradition is secure. By any reasonable characterization of “playing in tune”, he also plays out of tune sometimes. If you listen to the tunes in B-flat on some of his recordings, you can detect that the intonation is often a bit more ragged than his playing in the most common keys.
To me this is an interesting academic point (I can’t help thinking about such things), but irrelevant to my enjoyment of Tommy’s playing.
it only works for melody, so take a recording of tommy playing by himself. then we can find out if he is in tune to mean temperament, or just out of tune. also take a classical musician and analyse them for comparison.
He's frequently out of tune. Just listen. However, as Bob himself said, his place in history is assured. But I must admit, I find it more than just an academic point. If dodgy intonation does not bother you then that's ok. I remember as a kid listening to old recordings of fiddle players and being very excited by them. There was a certain quality to their playing that I did notice but couldn't exactly describe in words. Some years later, listening to those same recordings, I realised that this quality was just plain old out of tune. You see I now had the benefit of several years hard work developing my sense of intonation on the fiddle. Nowadays I just cannot tolerate bad intonation. It sets my teeth on edge.
Some people are born with a keen sense of intonation; others need to work on it. I've worked on mine very hard over the years. The down side of this is that it takes away from my enjoyment of the many wonderful aspects of players such as Tommy Peoples.
Actually, it's not completely irrevelant to my enjoyment. It is ocassionally distracting, if I allow it to be, but on repeated listening I stop noticing and get carried away by the tune.
Tommy Peoples plays Irish Music in an idiosyncratic Donegal style. He isn't 'out of tune'. Some people on this thread are just saying they don't like Irish music of that type. They seem to want it to conform to the norms of another sort of music. Fortunately it won't.
Bob Himself sort of gets it there. He says he stops noticing (The Style?) and gets carried away with the tune. That is the point. Imagine one of the Irish Music Experts with perfect pitch on this thread could take Mr. Peoples under his wing for a couple of years and hammer their notions of intonation into him. Would he be a better/more exciting player? And if not, what is the relevance of the condescending blather above?
DJF, it's hard to write a polite reply. There's no accounting for taste, but if you're not going to listen to someone due to "bad" intonation, you're going to listen to few people. Or if you don't notice "bad" intonation on something, either you're listening to something overproduced - or you don't realize we all notice your "bad" intonation.
I bet you could probably relax and learn to tolerate variances in intonation for the process of appreciating absolutely masterful fiddle playing. Or quite possibly you can't, but you'll miss out on, well, almost everyone at some point.
Dodgy to who? Himself? If he's playing by himself, then he's in tune with himself. How can he not be in tune with himself? If he's playing with others, he's in tune with them. What exactly is the issue? It's not as if on The Bothies' first album he played one set of notes and the rest of the band played theirs, eh? Or on this recording? Mr. Molloy seems to have no issues with Mr. Peoples' intonation.
Seriously, couldn’t you just say this about anyone, no matter how all-over-the-place their intonation was? Where did he get this special tuning infallibility?
Likewise,
“If he's playing by himself, then he's in tune with himself. How can he not be in tune with himself?”
Come on!, if that was a legitimate defence then we would never be able to claim a soloist was playing out of tune; the very idea of improving in intonation would be absurd. It would be impossible to try and improve your intonation, since you’re already in tune with yourself to begin with! Honestly, do you people think that being famous, or being Tommy Peoples, or being whatever gives anyone magical powers so they are mysteriously incapable of playing out of tune? No matter how much anyone says that Tommy Peoples playing out of tune is totally inconceivable and a contradiction in terms, you’re not going to convince any of us with a good ear!
whistleblower, i respect your opinion and I do think Tommy plays what he wants to play.... But no I CANT say that about everyone... I see many players playing hit or miss and using dodgy intonation and the results are obvious. Magic? No, but if I didn't believe there was an emotional and spiritual aspect of trad. music, then I wouldn't be playing it. Tommy is successful at what he does... what is it about him that moves people? I remember the very first time I heard Altan and then digging up info about players like Peoples and Doherty... It was like "Yes! there are others in the world who feel what I'm feeling...!!!!" So yes, maybe my feelings are making me an unobjective and biased observer/listener!
the point is that steelplayer called Tommy's intonation "dodgy" and that doesn't describe Peoples playing to me
(Like you I also disagree with the "in tune with himself" comment )
Thank you TheSilverSpear, and thank you SteelPlayer.
Written sources are few, The Northern Fiddler is invaluable, and has a little on intonation here and there, The Scots Fiddle (volume 3): Tunes, Tales and Traditions of the Western Highlands, Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland, by J. Murray Neil, has notes on Angus Grant’s tuning, pitching G# towards natural. Many Scottish fiddle books are useful for helping one analyse Donegal fiddle style. A lot of the stuff on the web stems from the dubious sources I mentioned. Many people are prepared to say that distinctive native local styles are not authentic Donegal, because they do not conform to the perceived rules of John Doherty’s style of playing (even though the styles they’re archaic enough if I can put it that way. – My main teacher learned the fiddle in the late 1920s early 30s and Neillidh Boyle was his biggest influence outside his own family). My awareness of all this comes from having been brought up in the Gaeltacht and hearing lots of people from outside say that my playing, that of my elderly relatives who taught me, and that of the old folk in general, of Francie Ó Maonaigh for instance, were not really instances of Donegal fiddle music, because we break the new rules for authenticity.
The new generic Donegal fiddle style is less varied, less rhythmic, less discordant, more even, less nuanced, less subtle than what I heard growing up. This might go unnoticed if the main forum for Irish music is the crowded pub. But this is what happens, I suppose, when traditional music becomes a popular movement: it gets simplified and standardised. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann famously claimed to have the secret knowledge of what constitutes Irish traditional music; and I’m afraid that the new “Donegal fiddle” movement is in danger, in the same way, of doing damage to the living tradition by imposing rules on a picture that is much more complex than they allow. Often these days, for each old fiddler who dies, a distinctive local style is lost; only to be replaced by 200 enthusiasts all playing alike in the new standard Donegal style. It’s just how things are I suppose. I’m sure that more able people than I will, in time, do some serious study on the more complex picture of Donegal fiddle traditions. In the meantime, listen to old recordings of Donegal players and you will hear much of what has now been outlawed. There are no scholarly references as informative as the ears.
Is it a different note, every time he plays it, or is it the same note, just 'off' to where we think it should be? He's consistent, so where is the problem, because his A isn't 440? It's 435 every time or some other such tossery?
The first Bothy band album was 75, 76? The album with Molly and Brady was 85. Where in them did he not intone properly with the rest of his fellow musicians?
Every time this playing-out-of-tune topic comes up, it surprises me (again) that some folks seem to be put off by the suggestion that an established player’s intonation might sometimes be exotic enough or inconsistent enough to be distracting or maybe even unsatisfying.
If you’re listening to a fiddler who starts out sounding really good, but, with each tune, gets a little looser with his intonation, won’t there always be a point where you become consciously aware of the change? Won’t there always be another point where you could say that he’s now a bit “out of tune”? Maybe you’re still enjoying it, but based on the earlier playing, couldn’t you fairly conclude that the fiddler is probably not hitting every note exactly as he intended?
If it wasn’t clear above, Mr. Peoples is one of my fiddle heroes. His playing is brilliant, spine-tingling, often transcendent.
“Bob Himself sort of gets it there. He says he stops noticing (The Style?) and gets carried away with the tune.”
I stop noticing that the intonation is different from the previous three tunes (or maybe the fiddle tuning has slipped a bit).
We are lucky to have Tommy Peoples to play music for us in our time.
I grew up learning many kinds of music mostly on equal-tempered instruments (though the pipe and drum bands on parade days and the meantone-tuned church organ in our little town were thrilling in their different intonations).
Over twenty years listening and playing Irish traditional music has taught me how little I know about intonation and how much can be learned from great players like Tommy.
I want to hear fiddlers find all those wild and stirring sounds that their instrument allows them.
How sad that some fiddlers feel they have to conform to equal temperament -- an intonation compromise that was forced on keyboard instruments (as, possibly a fairly localized "fad" over space, time, and cultures, when considered in the context of all human music-making).
This week I have been listening to the old (Paddy Sweeney, George White's Favorite/Lasses of Carracastle) and the "new" (Kevin Henry, Up Cloontia on the "One's own place" cd), not to mention the late John Kelly and his son James (polkas on the "Melodic Journeys" cd) for every color and nuance of the "sharp C"/C# as used in the key of G....
Though I have 4 different pitches for C and C# on some of my concertinas, I can only dream of approaching the expressive potential of traditional intonation on the fiddle.
Wichita Fiddler, I wouldn't exactly say it's sad I don't get the same thrill out of listening to old out of tune recordings as I did when I was a kid. Now with increased knowledge I just notice more of the imperfections. A bit like looking at a painting masterpiece as a child and being filled with awe. Say you then spend a number of years studying art. Wouldn't you then look at the same masterpiece and be aware that it's not quite 100% perfection. You might be a little less in awe but that doesn't make the masterpiece any less masterful.
Another way of putting this is whether you play for pay or play for fun (although the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive).
If you're playing for fun you don't need to be that precise with your intonation.
If you're playing for pay you better be in tune or you'll be out that studio door quicker than you can say "but, but I was in tune with myself.........! "
I can see this is getting some people hot under the collar. Just enjoy Tommy Peoples for what he brings to the music. I certainly do.
Whistle blower... I know what your saying about Donegal fiddling.... but there's no doubt Tommy and Altan and Doherty are Donegal fiddlers! I have similar arguments for what is "appalachian fiddling" here in the usa... what passes for Appalachian these days is a very watered down and commercialized southern style from the 1920's... no wonder people have a hard time differentiating "old time" and "bluegrass..." But thats another subject for anotehr time and space....
Wichitafiddler,
I should say, I really like Johnny Doherty's playing. It's interesting and innovative, and he had a command of the fiddle that has no equal these days. He's was definitely a master of the Donegal style. I love listening to is playing, though I do find Mickey Doherty’s style more relaxed and familiar. All I’m saying is that not all Donegal traditional fiddling bears that close a resemblance to John’s style. His repertoire has a very large overlap with ours of course; he travelled around the Gaeltacht learning fiddle when he was in his early 20s, sometimes staying for 1 or 2 years pretty much in the same place absorbing the music. I never meant to give the impression that I don’t have very high admiration for Johnny Doherty’s playing.
I didnt think anything like that... these threads get confusing. All of the Donegal music I have evr heard, I have liked. I wish I knew how to get my hands on more recordings of it... not just the commercial stuff either! Ive listened to Danny Mehan, John Doherty, Altan and Peoples of course.... and Con Cassidy, some of PV ODonnel... I havent heard any of Mickey's music....
If you don't have the field recordings of John Doherty and Néillidh Boyle from Folktrax, now rereleased by Scallta Media from Wexford, you can get them here: http://www.scallta.com/ulstersongs/
They're superb, though completely informal. John Doherty's recordings contain a wealth of beautiful tunes, and Néillidh Boyle's gives us a taste of a past age, no one in 20th century Donegal fiddling equalled him in their command of the instrument, and these days no one comes remotely close. Nothing being recorded in Donegal music in recent years comes anywhere close to this stuff. (And to be honest, I can't understand placing the old masters in the same category as the Tommy Peoples!)
There are a few Mickey Doherty tracks on an album entitled "Donegal Fiddle" released by RTÉ a few years back. And a wonderful double cassette called "The Gravel Walks" (from recordings made in 1949) is absolutely brilliant; I have no idea why people are planning new compelations of Donegal music and yet this masterpiece has not made its way to CD, and seems unlikely to be doing so.
Tommy Peoples
Tommy Peoples
He is a great fiddler, I really want to get into listening to his music but I can't because (this maybe just my ears) but he plays a lot of notes out of tune.
Anyone else thimk this?
As far as bowing and ornamentation go, I can't think of anyone better
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by D.J.F.
Re: Tommy Peoples
...Out of tune with 12 tone equal temperament which only became popular in Irish music with the introduction of the piano and guitars etc... so if we were going to view what is correct in terms of length of practice, then what Tommy is doing is much more correct and certainly older within this genre.
The 12 TET of piano's and accordions etc... is not the only way but one way. Thankfully we've Tommy to thank for a modern day realisation of that..
Up Donegal!
M.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by martin t
P.S.
Check out the preface to The Frank Roach Collection for a contemporous account of this change happening and if you get a chance to visit the Irish Music Archive, check out Dr. Richard Henebry's book on the subject.
And as soon as I perfect a technique for bending notes on accordion that doesn't leave my fingers sore, I'll be straight on the band wagon!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by martin t
Re: Tommy Peoples
The only recording I have of Tommy is a bootleg recording of a live concert he did. (I don't even know where)
Him on the fiddle... no accompanyment... Priceless!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by davydd
Re: Tommy Peoples
Hey martin t,
I never even realised that that existed so for me it sounded out of tune (then again I was taught classical up to age 16).
Tommy Peoples really cannot do anything wrong!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by D.J.F.
Re: Tommy Peoples
I played classical piano for 20 years.
When I decided to play the Fiddle... I decided to learn completely by ear. I think this helped a lot with my immersion into the music... and develop an unhealthy obsession of listening to recordings of various fiddle players (in tune or no)
I've kinda lost the need for pitch perfect music these days... and not regretting it one bit.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by davydd
Re: Tommy Peoples
Gotta agree with Martin T. Have a listen to the old Clare fiddlers: Bobby Casey, Paddy Canny, P.J.Hayes etc. and you'll hear how far towards classical 12 TET we've moved in fifty years, and how far from an old, uniquely-Irish tradition that movement has been. Tommy Peoples' intonation falls somewhere between the extremes of old-style and 12 TET.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tommy Peoples
Even more relevant I suppose would be old recordings of Johnny Doherty, Neilidh Boyle etc. Hardcore Donegal fiddlers who definitely had nothing to do with 12 TET.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tommy Peoples
Whilst not saying any of the above is wrong, I think there's often a great deal of rubbish talked about equal temperament and just intonation in the context of traditional music and fiddle in particular. Some people seem to use it as an excuse for the fact that they can't play in tune.
Most fiddlers are more or less out of tune quite a bit of the time. (Start listening hard to those third finger notes!) What matters is whether or not it sounds good.
I would very much like to see an analysis of the pitch variation of a good fiddler in context of the actual differences between just intonation and equal temperament.
Has anyone come across such a thing?
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Tommy Peoples
A violin teacher once told me that someone did some sort of pitch analysis on a Stefan Grapelli recording and it was discovered he had pretty much perfect intonation.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by peter wsll
Re: Tommy Peoples
The test to see if it's deliberate or mere in abilty is: Is it consistent?
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tommy Peoples
Buy The Quiet Glen and play it a few times. What you're calling "out of tune" is all part of the character of Tommy's playing. There is a consistency of intonation within the amazingly-characterful playing that begins to sound clear and sweet with a little repeated listening. Generally, he hasn't been served well by recordings, but the one I mention is the glorious exception. It's my favourite ITM CD.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tommy Peoples
Fair point ref consistency Michael, but there are a lot of fiddlers who consistently pinch their their third finger notes slightly flat. Not sure that makes it "in tune"!
Tom
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Tommy Peoples
Tommy's running a day workshop in September in Lewes UK:
http://www.lewesarmsfolkclub.org/LAFC/workshps.html
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by suesinger
Re: Tommy Peoples
It depends on the context in which you're playing. If you're in the mix with fixed pitch instruments then your intonation has to be equal temperament or you'll sound out of tune. If it's all strings then you can indulge in a "sweeter temperament" - just intonation. This mostly means flattening the 3rds and sharpening the 7ths. You'll find a lot of discussion on this topic on the classical fiddle sites. String players need to adjust their intonation from playing say in a string quartet to playing with a piano.
As for playing consistently in tune. I once read that someone had performed an analysis on Heifitz's playing and was quite shocked to discover that even he, with the reputation for the truest intonation, was not perfectly in tune all the time. The important thing is that he corrects his fingering so quickly nobody notices. That is until some nerd with a pitch analyser goes and slows down a recording.
Do you guys have any specific recordings of Tommy Peoples in mind with which you have intonation issues ?
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Tommy Peoples
I've played recordings of Tommy Peoples to a couple of musicians who have expressed interest in Irish music, and they simply can't hear the music, they just hear dissonance and harsh-sounding ornamentation. I always thought he sounded wild. Wild in a way that made the hairs stand up on the back of your neck. Intonation never seemed to be an issue, and it strikes me that if you're listening to the likes of Tommy P. and analysing intonation you're missing something fundamental. This is the sound of the untamed Atlantic Shore, not some Salzburg Conservatory.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Ottery
Re: Tommy Peoples
Harps have fixed intonation. Have they been tuned to equal temperament since the 18th century when equal temperament was 'discovered', or only more recently? Just wondering whether it's really only since the introduction of pianos and guitars that fiddle players have had to adapt their playing to equal temperament.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: Tommy Peoples
a further thought to add my previous post - I suppose it could be that harps, no matter how they were tuned, did not traditionally play dance music along with fiddles, and that it's the ensemble playing that is a recent development. Any historians out there...?
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Lissagriffin
Re: Tommy Peoples
Accomplished singers and fiddle players can listen and adapt to different accompanying temperaments. Great composers would never have written violin sonatas for a start had this not been the case. Even harmonica players can listen and do some adjusting to some extent. Part of the appreciation side of ITM is the fact that little tensions arise from tiny clashes in intonation. Ever heard a whistle perfectly-pitched on every note? This is not the same thing as some clod playing flat all night. If you listen to Tommy Peoples and call him out of tune you're listening wrong, using some inapplicable reference point from outside ITM. Enjoy the wildness!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tommy Peoples
Lissagriffin - Even though harps are fixed pitch, they (obviously) only have 7 notes per octave at a time (in general!) Those seven notes can either be tuned to equal temperament, or just intonation or whatever you like for the "key" you're in. It's really only when you get to chromatic instruments of fixed pitch, ie keyboards etc, that temperament etc becomes a big issue.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Tommy Peoples
I play pedal steel guitar and dealing with tempered tuning is a big issue - you should see the discussions on the pedal steel forum!
It is something that every newcomer to the instrument has to grapple and come to terms with. Most people beginning the instrument will practise on their own for a period of time when they will usually instinctively tune and play in just intonation, The problems start when they begin to play in bands where there is a keyboard. This is where a lot of players hit a wall. They must learn to temper their tuning. If they don't they'll get fired and arguments about "interesting dissonances" just won't cut it.
Having gone through all this pain myself I'm particularly intolerant to people playing out of tune. It hurts! It's amazing how many guitar players don't realise that certain chord shapes should be avoided like the plague. Minor 3rd intervals on a guitar - yikes!
Now I'm off to listen to Tommy Peoples. The little bit of him I've heard with the Bothy Band sounded fine I think. Now I have to go and have a proper listen.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Tommy Peoples
Ok, well, as I heard somebody say in a documentary TV program posted on YouTube when asked who does Tommy Peoples sound like. The reply was, "he sounds like Tommy Peoples". I'll just leave it at that.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Tommy Peoples
Tommy Peoples in Geantraí:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=RlNXwB59Zyc
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=EULqgLGmdxo
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=5_qp8zcM8YY
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Tommy Peoples
This bit of software is a laugh: http://miracle.otago.ac.nz/postgrads/tartini/
Says I play out of tune if looking at equal temperament, but perfectly in tune if just temperament. I could you have told you that anyway. All pianos sound horribly out of tune to me.
Of course there is beer temperament too, but that comes later in the night.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: Tommy Peoples
This is a very interesting and enlightening debate about temperaments and explains a lot about the playing of the likes of Bobby Casey, Paddy Canny, Johnny Doherty, etc. To the un-initiated applying classical norms, then there may appear to be some dissonance but to someone who understands the tradition this is how the music would have been played before we were introduced to the straight jacket of concert pitch.
As for Tommy Peoples (and I don't want to get into this sterile debate on grading trad players), in my opinion he is the greatest living trad fiddler. He can do the technical stuff but there's also a "draíocht" in his music that very few can achieve. His compositional abilities are also extraordinary and he has recently branched out into song-writing as shown on the recent Sé Mo Laoch RTE programme.
The Green Linnet CD was an excellent recording (although my copy has gone AWOL) but I remember some great new tunes like "The Fat Cat" and "The Mouse in the Attic", also a lovely new reel "Beautiful Gortree" and what about the lovely air, "The Jocelyn Tree" which he sometimes also plays as a jig.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Tommy Peoples. Not Just-Intonation.
Just Intonation means that the intervals in the scale can be described by whole number frequency ratios. It’s not widely used outside medieval and early renaissance Church music because it has a reputation for being cumbersome and not very flexible. Irish fiddle playing is typically not equal temperament, but it’s definitely NOT just intonation either. Frequently certain passages approximate the natural scale, and so are non-equal temperament, and as in Classical music leading notes are often ‘retuned’, such as the more sharpened G# leading to A. Also, as in Scottish West Highland fiddle music, G# in the key of A might be played more natural, tending towards the natural of the mixolydian bagpipe scale. C# and F# (in the key of D) are often played slightly natural, as is common in Irish Fiddling in general. Irish music (in common with most norther European fiddling) also employs deliberately discordant notes for effect, which are deliberately outside the scale of the tune. All this said, it is still possible to have poor intonation. And Tommy Peoples doesn’t have great intonation.
As to whether he is a paradigm example of the Donegal fiddle style, here’s a comment from Martin Dowling, from this site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6464/othr.html
"I certainly wouldn't steer you away from Altan or Peoples on the grounds that they are less authentic! It's just that Peoples' style is so distinctive that you may end up sounding more like him than like the majority of Donegal fiddlers. And as for Altan, the pace of the music is so fast that I fear you will miss what's actually happening with the bow. I think that it is only after inspecting Doherty that you will appreciate what Altan are doing. I invite you to try and play along with one of their tracks without slurring any notes!
Tommy Peoples is not really from heartland of Donegal fiddling and, as the above quote implies, is a style unto himself, having little or nothing in common with any of the old West Donegal styles (except that he bows every note and play without rhythm, in common with a much simplified version of John Doherty’s distinctive playing.) John Doherty’s own playing is not greatly representative of the old Donegal style, which had a heavily swung rhythm. John Doherty played reels without much swing, a style he borrowed from James Scott Skinner’s playing of pipe reels which was influenced by the Scottish military piping of the new Highland Regiments. Mickey Doherty is played more like their father Michael, in the old Rosses style, with swing. The new dogma of Donegal fiddle writing is that Mickey must got the swing from Michael Coleman’s playing, because the only authentic Donegal styles conform to the John Doherty paradigm. (Caoimhín Mac Aoidh’s work is behind much of this account of Donegal fiddle history, according to which nearly everything goes back to John Doherty. A different, more balanced, and in many ways more accurate account can be found in a sadly out of print book: The Northern Fiddler, by Allen Feldman & Eamonn O'Doherty. The two accounts of where to divide up the boundaries of Donegal sub-styles are completely opposed to each other.)
Listen to Neillidh Boyle’s playing, he was a much greater influence on the playing style of the Rosses in the 1970s than John Doherty was. Similarly, Máiread Ní Mhaonaigh does not play in the Gweedore style of her father. She is much more influenced by the John Doherty style, and even more so by the simplified version we find in Paddy Glackin, and by the Tommy Peoples’ atypical style. And until the recent revivalist movement in South Donegal that has fixed dubious rules for Donegal playing, such as “no swing, no slurring, no finder ornamentation,…”, this type of playing was far from the norm in Donegal. All of these outlawed things are features of the non-John Doherty styles, and even he did slur notes and use finger ornamentation, though not as much as the was typical of the Rosses style. And if you compare Paddy Glackin, Tommy Peoples, or Máiread Ní Mhaonaigh’s playing with old recordings of highlands, they have rounded off the strong Scottish rhythms and play them like the Austrian barndances popular in East Donegal in the 1900s. No wonder people have difficulty telling highlands apart from hornpipes and reels. Listen to the brilliant album “The Brass Fiddle”, and consider whether these styles of music are really being preserved in the midst of this new enthusiasm for ‘Donegal fiddle’. Under the influence of this revivalist movement, even some older players in South Donegal are abandoning the swing completely like Tommy Peoples, and over-emphasising the off beat. By all means listen to Tommy Peoples if you like his style. If you are interested in the traditional Donegal style there are quite a few older recordings that you should listen to.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples
whistleblower, that's a great post. Very educational. Thank you very much.
But I've got to wonder who are these people who "outlaw" various elements in a style? Reminds me of the old "is it country" and "Hank never done it that way" furore in country music - hilarious.
That a style is in constant flux and evolution is only a sign of its good health. It's only when all fiddle players start to sound the same that we need to worry.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Tommy Peoples
I love to listen to Tommy P. He is unique and irreplaceable. His place in the history of the tradition is secure. By any reasonable characterization of “playing in tune”, he also plays out of tune sometimes. If you listen to the tunes in B-flat on some of his recordings, you can detect that the intonation is often a bit more ragged than his playing in the most common keys.
To me this is an interesting academic point (I can’t help thinking about such things), but irrelevant to my enjoyment of Tommy’s playing.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tommy Peoples
if anyone is interested, here is a software suite which could take a whole recdording and tell you the average tuning of each note:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA.htm
it only works for melody, so take a recording of tommy playing by himself. then we can find out if he is in tune to mean temperament, or just out of tune. also take a classical musician and analyse them for comparison.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by daiv
Re: Tommy Peoples
Out of tune????
Tom BR you are proposing something that doesn't apply to Tommy Peoples... he is playing the exact notes he wants to play... period.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
He's frequently out of tune. Just listen. However, as Bob himself said, his place in history is assured. But I must admit, I find it more than just an academic point. If dodgy intonation does not bother you then that's ok. I remember as a kid listening to old recordings of fiddle players and being very excited by them. There was a certain quality to their playing that I did notice but couldn't exactly describe in words. Some years later, listening to those same recordings, I realised that this quality was just plain old out of tune. You see I now had the benefit of several years hard work developing my sense of intonation on the fiddle. Nowadays I just cannot tolerate bad intonation. It sets my teeth on edge.
Some people are born with a keen sense of intonation; others need to work on it. I've worked on mine very hard over the years. The down side of this is that it takes away from my enjoyment of the many wonderful aspects of players such as Tommy Peoples.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Tommy Peoples
Actually, it's not completely irrevelant to my enjoyment. It is ocassionally distracting, if I allow it to be, but on repeated listening I stop noticing and get carried away by the tune.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tommy Peoples
Tommy Peoples plays Irish Music in an idiosyncratic Donegal style. He isn't 'out of tune'. Some people on this thread are just saying they don't like Irish music of that type. They seem to want it to conform to the norms of another sort of music. Fortunately it won't.
Bob Himself sort of gets it there. He says he stops noticing (The Style?) and gets carried away with the tune. That is the point. Imagine one of the Irish Music Experts with perfect pitch on this thread could take Mr. Peoples under his wing for a couple of years and hammer their notions of intonation into him. Would he be a better/more exciting player? And if not, what is the relevance of the condescending blather above?
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Ottery
Re: Tommy Peoples
SteelPlayer, I find it sad that something that excited you as a kid, after years of study, now sets your teeth on edge.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Tommy Peoples
The words "dodgy intonation" and Peoples do NOT go hand in hand. He is playing the exact notes he WANTS to play.
It's not accident...
or chance...
or where his fingers happen to land...
His place in history is not "assured" because he is "Tommy Peoples" but because of the music he makes with his fiddle.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
DJF, it's hard to write a polite reply. There's no accounting for taste, but if you're not going to listen to someone due to "bad" intonation, you're going to listen to few people. Or if you don't notice "bad" intonation on something, either you're listening to something overproduced - or you don't realize we all notice your "bad" intonation.
I bet you could probably relax and learn to tolerate variances in intonation for the process of appreciating absolutely masterful fiddle playing. Or quite possibly you can't, but you'll miss out on, well, almost everyone at some point.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Tommy Peoples
Dodgy to who? Himself? If he's playing by himself, then he's in tune with himself. How can he not be in tune with himself? If he's playing with others, he's in tune with them. What exactly is the issue? It's not as if on The Bothies' first album he played one set of notes and the rest of the band played theirs, eh? Or on this recording? Mr. Molloy seems to have no issues with Mr. Peoples' intonation.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/218
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
Whistleblower, that was a great post. Do you have any references, as I'd be interested into digging into that further. Cheers.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tommy Peoples
“He is playing the exact notes he WANTS to play.”
Seriously, couldn’t you just say this about anyone, no matter how all-over-the-place their intonation was? Where did he get this special tuning infallibility?
Likewise,
“If he's playing by himself, then he's in tune with himself. How can he not be in tune with himself?”
Come on!, if that was a legitimate defence then we would never be able to claim a soloist was playing out of tune; the very idea of improving in intonation would be absurd. It would be impossible to try and improve your intonation, since you’re already in tune with yourself to begin with! Honestly, do you people think that being famous, or being Tommy Peoples, or being whatever gives anyone magical powers so they are mysteriously incapable of playing out of tune? No matter how much anyone says that Tommy Peoples playing out of tune is totally inconceivable and a contradiction in terms, you’re not going to convince any of us with a good ear!
See a similar discussion on how Kevin Burke’s intonation has improved since the 1970s. The same old “he’s in tune for him…” arguments were put there too:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16374/comments
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples
whistleblower, i respect your opinion and I do think Tommy plays what he wants to play.... But no I CANT say that about everyone... I see many players playing hit or miss and using dodgy intonation and the results are obvious. Magic? No, but if I didn't believe there was an emotional and spiritual aspect of trad. music, then I wouldn't be playing it. Tommy is successful at what he does... what is it about him that moves people? I remember the very first time I heard Altan and then digging up info about players like Peoples and Doherty... It was like "Yes! there are others in the world who feel what I'm feeling...!!!!" So yes, maybe my feelings are making me an unobjective and biased observer/listener!
the point is that steelplayer called Tommy's intonation "dodgy" and that doesn't describe Peoples playing to me
(Like you I also disagree with the "in tune with himself" comment )
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
Thank you TheSilverSpear, and thank you SteelPlayer.
Written sources are few, The Northern Fiddler is invaluable, and has a little on intonation here and there, The Scots Fiddle (volume 3): Tunes, Tales and Traditions of the Western Highlands, Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland, by J. Murray Neil, has notes on Angus Grant’s tuning, pitching G# towards natural. Many Scottish fiddle books are useful for helping one analyse Donegal fiddle style. A lot of the stuff on the web stems from the dubious sources I mentioned. Many people are prepared to say that distinctive native local styles are not authentic Donegal, because they do not conform to the perceived rules of John Doherty’s style of playing (even though the styles they’re archaic enough if I can put it that way. – My main teacher learned the fiddle in the late 1920s early 30s and Neillidh Boyle was his biggest influence outside his own family). My awareness of all this comes from having been brought up in the Gaeltacht and hearing lots of people from outside say that my playing, that of my elderly relatives who taught me, and that of the old folk in general, of Francie Ó Maonaigh for instance, were not really instances of Donegal fiddle music, because we break the new rules for authenticity.
The new generic Donegal fiddle style is less varied, less rhythmic, less discordant, more even, less nuanced, less subtle than what I heard growing up. This might go unnoticed if the main forum for Irish music is the crowded pub. But this is what happens, I suppose, when traditional music becomes a popular movement: it gets simplified and standardised. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann famously claimed to have the secret knowledge of what constitutes Irish traditional music; and I’m afraid that the new “Donegal fiddle” movement is in danger, in the same way, of doing damage to the living tradition by imposing rules on a picture that is much more complex than they allow. Often these days, for each old fiddler who dies, a distinctive local style is lost; only to be replaced by 200 enthusiasts all playing alike in the new standard Donegal style. It’s just how things are I suppose. I’m sure that more able people than I will, in time, do some serious study on the more complex picture of Donegal fiddle traditions. In the meantime, listen to old recordings of Donegal players and you will hear much of what has now been outlawed. There are no scholarly references as informative as the ears.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples
'Consistency' folks, like Llig said above.
Is it a different note, every time he plays it, or is it the same note, just 'off' to where we think it should be? He's consistent, so where is the problem, because his A isn't 440? It's 435 every time or some other such tossery?
The first Bothy band album was 75, 76? The album with Molly and Brady was 85. Where in them did he not intone properly with the rest of his fellow musicians?
2+2=
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
Heh, I typed 'w a n k e r y' and it changed it to 'tossery'.
...which are real cute, but I prefer this one:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2286
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
Every time this playing-out-of-tune topic comes up, it surprises me (again) that some folks seem to be put off by the suggestion that an established player’s intonation might sometimes be exotic enough or inconsistent enough to be distracting or maybe even unsatisfying.
If you’re listening to a fiddler who starts out sounding really good, but, with each tune, gets a little looser with his intonation, won’t there always be a point where you become consciously aware of the change? Won’t there always be another point where you could say that he’s now a bit “out of tune”? Maybe you’re still enjoying it, but based on the earlier playing, couldn’t you fairly conclude that the fiddler is probably not hitting every note exactly as he intended?
If it wasn’t clear above, Mr. Peoples is one of my fiddle heroes. His playing is brilliant, spine-tingling, often transcendent.
“Bob Himself sort of gets it there. He says he stops noticing (The Style?) and gets carried away with the tune.”
I stop noticing that the intonation is different from the previous three tunes (or maybe the fiddle tuning has slipped a bit).
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tommy Peoples
We are lucky to have Tommy Peoples to play music for us in our time.
I grew up learning many kinds of music mostly on equal-tempered instruments (though the pipe and drum bands on parade days and the meantone-tuned church organ in our little town were thrilling in their different intonations).
Over twenty years listening and playing Irish traditional music has taught me how little I know about intonation and how much can be learned from great players like Tommy.
I want to hear fiddlers find all those wild and stirring sounds that their instrument allows them.
How sad that some fiddlers feel they have to conform to equal temperament -- an intonation compromise that was forced on keyboard instruments (as, possibly a fairly localized "fad" over space, time, and cultures, when considered in the context of all human music-making).
This week I have been listening to the old (Paddy Sweeney, George White's Favorite/Lasses of Carracastle) and the "new" (Kevin Henry, Up Cloontia on the "One's own place" cd), not to mention the late John Kelly and his son James (polkas on the "Melodic Journeys" cd) for every color and nuance of the "sharp C"/C# as used in the key of G....
Though I have 4 different pitches for C and C# on some of my concertinas, I can only dream of approaching the expressive potential of traditional intonation on the fiddle.
PG
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Paul Groff
Re: Tommy Peoples
Or the flute or pipes
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Paul Groff
Re: Tommy Peoples
Nicely argued above Whistleblower.
Wichita Fiddler, I wouldn't exactly say it's sad I don't get the same thrill out of listening to old out of tune recordings as I did when I was a kid. Now with increased knowledge I just notice more of the imperfections. A bit like looking at a painting masterpiece as a child and being filled with awe. Say you then spend a number of years studying art. Wouldn't you then look at the same masterpiece and be aware that it's not quite 100% perfection. You might be a little less in awe but that doesn't make the masterpiece any less masterful.
Another way of putting this is whether you play for pay or play for fun (although the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive).
If you're playing for fun you don't need to be that precise with your intonation.
If you're playing for pay you better be in tune or you'll be out that studio door quicker than you can say "but, but I was in tune with myself.........! "
I can see this is getting some people hot under the collar. Just enjoy Tommy Peoples for what he brings to the music. I certainly do.
Ah feck it! I'm off to play some tunes........
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Tommy Peoples
The album with Molloy and Brady was not '85. It was long before that.
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tommy Peoples
Steel... the "thrill" comment was someone elses!
Hope you have fun with your tunes tonight!
I think I had no right to get into this discussion because I love every note I ever heard Peoples play.... love is blind I guess...
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
Whistle blower... I know what your saying about Donegal fiddling.... but there's no doubt Tommy and Altan and Doherty are Donegal fiddlers! I have similar arguments for what is "appalachian fiddling" here in the usa... what passes for Appalachian these days is a very watered down and commercialized southern style from the 1920's... no wonder people have a hard time differentiating "old time" and "bluegrass..." But thats another subject for anotehr time and space....
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples
Wichitafiddler,
I should say, I really like Johnny Doherty's playing. It's interesting and innovative, and he had a command of the fiddle that has no equal these days. He's was definitely a master of the Donegal style. I love listening to is playing, though I do find Mickey Doherty’s style more relaxed and familiar. All I’m saying is that not all Donegal traditional fiddling bears that close a resemblance to John’s style. His repertoire has a very large overlap with ours of course; he travelled around the Gaeltacht learning fiddle when he was in his early 20s, sometimes staying for 1 or 2 years pretty much in the same place absorbing the music. I never meant to give the impression that I don’t have very high admiration for Johnny Doherty’s playing.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples
whistleblower,
I didnt think anything like that... these threads get confusing. All of the Donegal music I have evr heard, I have liked. I wish I knew how to get my hands on more recordings of it... not just the commercial stuff either! Ive listened to Danny Mehan, John Doherty, Altan and Peoples of course.... and Con Cassidy, some of PV ODonnel... I havent heard any of Mickey's music....
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Great Recoerdings of Donegal Fiddlers
If you don't have the field recordings of John Doherty and Néillidh Boyle from Folktrax, now rereleased by Scallta Media from Wexford, you can get them here: http://www.scallta.com/ulstersongs/
They're superb, though completely informal. John Doherty's recordings contain a wealth of beautiful tunes, and Néillidh Boyle's gives us a taste of a past age, no one in 20th century Donegal fiddling equalled him in their command of the instrument, and these days no one comes remotely close. Nothing being recorded in Donegal music in recent years comes anywhere close to this stuff. (And to be honest, I can't understand placing the old masters in the same category as the Tommy Peoples!)
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Mickey Doherty
There are a few Mickey Doherty tracks on an album entitled "Donegal Fiddle" released by RTÉ a few years back. And a wonderful double cassette called "The Gravel Walks" (from recordings made in 1949) is absolutely brilliant; I have no idea why people are planning new compelations of Donegal music and yet this masterpiece has not made its way to CD, and seems unlikely to be doing so.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples
thanks whistleblower! im going to take a look at these!!!
# Posted on February 1st 2009 by wichitafiddler