any fiddle players have experienced neck or back pain??
i ve been dying for the past few weeks. do you guys think a neck rest would improve the posture? i never used it thinking the neck would be freer to move around while playing but maybe i should change my mind?
I often get chin pain, and at the moment I have a terrible back, and although I'm not sure it's entirely related to fiddle playing, I'm sure fiddling away for an hour or six didn't really help.
Try a shoulder rest, Some people can play comfortably without one, but I get a crick in the neck if I don't use one. it's also worth experimenting with different chin rests, again different designs suit different people, you have to find what is comfortable for yourself. It could also help to get a good fiddler have a look at you playing, to see if they can spot anything obvious that looks wrong with your posture.
Try yoga in addition to seeing your doctor. I do yoga three time a week (minimum) and I do not play with a shoulder rest.. Ever since I invested more time doing yoga, I have had less problems dealing with various pain issues.
when you're playing fiddle, you should be able to hold your head at a natural angle (not contorted), with your shoulders relaxed and not raised. Try not to hunch over, and don't clench and squeeze. Some folks need a rest for this, some don't. Try out some at a shop - Kun, Mach One, Bon Musica are all very different-feeling. Get a teacher to help set you up, perhaps, and consider talking to someone trained in Alexander technique.
It's not worth it to hurt to play fiddle. They're always a way to become more comfortable.
Sounds like too much tension - a shoulder rest might help, but relaxation is probably the key. Like reenactor says, a rest might help you to achieve the posture that enables you to relax more, but its quite important to address the tension in your neck and shoulders regardless. Relaxing your grip and your shoulders will also improve your playing.
New players experience the most pain, usually, but if you're a long time player you might be in trouble as your posture while playing may be the problem and changing your habits will be difficult. But relaxation is key. A shoulder rest will probably help too. Try not to dig your chin in so hard and support the fiddle with your hand; loosely.
Good luck!
Adding on to the previous suggestions, you want to find a good massage therapist (LMT, if that credential is used in Ireland). Someone who knows what they're doing can do a world of good in these things, and can usually give you a lot of good information on ways to prevent further damage.
The suggestion of yoga is a good one as well, if you practice it regularly, although you want to avoid most of what's out there. Yoga is a very simple set of stretches, which require very little instruction and no equipment or spiritual enlightenment. Anyone who tells you different is selling you a lifestyle, and should probably be avoided - yoga mats and "namaste" are the equivalent, if you like, of claddagh rings and brand new accents in the session world. And if your teacher can't teach you what you need to know about the basic stretches in maybe two lessons, they're either not a very good teacher or they're trying to string you along for the cash - more likely both.
Another thing occured to me justabloke, have you thought about whether the chair you sit on when you're playing is causing backache? I find that a chair with a firm level seat is best, anything that sags or slopes backwards causes problems.
Often what you need is a good chin rest; one that's high enough and has a good deep lip so it can get good purchase on the jaw. I have a good chin rest; I have never used a shoulder rest and have never got neck or shoulder pain from playing.
If the chin rest is not up to the job a shoulder rest will not help. I know a German violinist who uses a shoulder rest and still has serious neck pain, and spends a fortune on weekly therapy. The problem is tension and generally a shoulder rest is not a quick fix. Many Irish fiddlers (recently) use shoulder rests (which are often far too high), but their posture does not improve at all, and so the source of tension remains. If you have a longish neck then it's the chin rest and not the shoulder rest you should be looking at, so the fiddle can rest nicely on the collar bone. Try out lots of chin rests to see which one suits you best. I saw someone on the continent using one of these quite high, elegant SAS chin rests: https://www.viva-sas.com/chin_about.htm
Relaxing while you play is of the utmost importance. Good posture helps too. Not to actually play music, but to avoid hurting yourself. Sure, you can play with bad or 'folk' posture, but there's a reason why classical teachers teach good posture with the instrument, it's so you don't hurt yourself. Relax, try to never be tense while playing, and use a shoulder rest, for sure. Take breaks and stretch. Shake out your muscles.
Good posture, and relaxation, are both also helpful for good playing. Tension keeps you from moving freely, impedes your playing. That's why we play like [expletive deleted, but it was only a moderately vulgar term I was thinking of] when we get nervous: all the muscles get tense and don't respond the way they're supposed to.
I think whistleblower has it, except that you do need to see a doctor, if only to positively exclude anything pathological. I'd only add that if you do all your fiddle practice sitting down why not try standing up - this encourages a good posture, and you can walk around as you play. Sitting down is only for orchestras and sessions!
oh ya i think the pain is a combination of factors, i dont blame the auld fiddle for it eh eh, but i suppose i have to admit i m not usually relaxed when i m playing at sessions and sure ye know urselves pub stools can be hell, esp when the place is jammers and you ve a few pints in you. im seeing a chiropractic this week and hopefully that ll help...
I nearly always play standing. When fiddlers or violinists are seated they have to sit in such a way as to approximate the standing posture in the upper body, with the freedom of movement it allows. Cramped pub conditions are really disastrous for fiddle players; bow movement is horribly restricted, and you can see some fiddlers who have been so beaten down by cramped conditions that they hold the fiddle itself almost completely to the front rather than to the side. I don’t like playing in pubs for just this reason.
Back problems are problems with muscles, tendons, and ligaments. When the muscles etc. are relaxed the bones of the spine will align naturally. Forcing the bones of the back into a new position is trying to get to the end result without addressing the actual problem, and will do nothing in the long term to fix your problem. In fact it will stress the muscles that need to be relaxed. The trade of the Chiropractor is very dubious indeed. I’d advise something that will actually address the underlying muscular problem (Alexander technique, tai chi, yoga, massage, or what have you.) These are long-term solutions (though you’ll notice results quite quickly), and won’t wreck your back!
I've had more of a problem with left shoulder and arm than neck or
back.
I once got into a habit of twisting my torso over to the left.
That caused some aching after long practice sessions.
You can get neck pain by using muscle tension to hold your head
down, clamping against the fiddle. I sometimes do that unconsciously
if I'm really bashing away at a tough technical problem.
Same as above for the left shoulder if you scrunch it up instead of
letting it hang open and loose.
I have found - and also read - that RSI problems on fiddle are usually
caused by a failure to relax and bad posture while playing.
One more vote for relaxation. I've been through all the pains, and once had to stop altogether for about three years ...
Now here's what's unique from me: I make a point now of relaxing the fingers of my left-hand. The relaxation seems to flow from there to the rest of my body.
One posture I've noticed with some flute players when they're playing is that they have their head twisted as far as it can go to the left (or right as the case may be), so that the chin is virtually resting on the shoulder. I'm not sure why they adopt a position that looks inherently uncomfortable, and which, I suspect, could have deleterious effects on the anatomy of the neck in the long term.
Yes, that type of flute position seems unnecessary. It looks cool in
photos, but I don't think you could sustain it happily through a long
session. My flute playing experience is not in Trad music
though, so maybe I don't understand the reason for it.
Hup, Whistleblower says above: "Cramped pub conditions are really disastrous for fiddle players; bow movement is horribly restricted, and you can see some fiddlers who have been so beaten down by cramped conditions that they hold the fiddle itself almost completely to the front rather than to the side."
That's made me think (always a good thing!) - perhaps the cramped conditions could be having the same effect on the flute players as on the fiddlers, forcing them to adopt a posture in which the flute is pointed more or less to the front so that there is less interference with other players. The standard classical hold in which the player faces forward demands space to one side for the instrument.
Justabloke - Yes, most players of all instruments have pain. Caused by mis-use, not over-use.
For fiddling, a shoulder rest will keep the fiddle at the height and angle you like it. Most are adjustable, try a few.
You don't need a chinrest. I removed the chinrest many years ago. I let my neck go free and leave my head in the center as in normal life. I believe that I hear the fiddle better without it, which to me means that the audience hears it better, also.
This allowed me to release the horrible tensions and pains in neck and L shldr accumulated by mis-use.
My elbows rest as comfortable, by my sides. I do not lift my arms as many players do. I did that, and left off.
The part of the neck that joins the box of the fiddle rests on my hand/wrist. I do not squeeze thumb and index, or otherwise hold the fiddle at all. My LH is dead relaxed until I need to make a sound, then I use minimal muscles to hear a sound. True: while playing as large as possible on the street, or intimate fireplace music.
LHand near the box allows 3 octaves of playing without traditional shifting. Allows the LH to be entirely released, so fingers don't need to press strings all the way to the fingerboard, making and releasing sounds is easier and quicker, and expression is more natural and expressive.
And the buzz on the fingertips is exhilarating.
Pains: using muscles for what they were not intended.
And doing this for extended periods.
Lifting L shldr. Turning head and pressing it down on the fiddle.
These are common. Also: RA pulling backwards, felt under the shldr blade.
When you feel pain, find out what causes it. Do it again and learn what action causes pains where. Then mindfully release these muscles to become comfortable. Chiropracters, massage, yoga all work. But they don't fix you -- you do the essential work, starting with: choose a better way - play in a released way.
Pain!
Pain!
any fiddle players have experienced neck or back pain??
i ve been dying for the past few weeks. do you guys think a neck rest would improve the posture? i never used it thinking the neck would be freer to move around while playing but maybe i should change my mind?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by justabloke
Re: Pain!
Neck or back pain, I'd be seeing my doctor about before it got any worse.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Pain!
Used to get neck and jaw ache which improved by using an adjustable neck rest. I think this is quite a common problem.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Rob
Re: Pain!
Ebor_fiddler's advice is good. See a professional about neck and back pain.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: Pain!
I've heard of a few bodhran players getting jaw pain but I think it was well deserved!!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by csparpd
Re: Pain!
I often get chin pain, and at the moment I have a terrible back, and although I'm not sure it's entirely related to fiddle playing, I'm sure fiddling away for an hour or six didn't really help.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: Pain!
Try a shoulder rest, Some people can play comfortably without one, but I get a crick in the neck if I don't use one. it's also worth experimenting with different chin rests, again different designs suit different people, you have to find what is comfortable for yourself. It could also help to get a good fiddler have a look at you playing, to see if they can spot anything obvious that looks wrong with your posture.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by cathycook
Re: Pain!
Try yoga in addition to seeing your doctor. I do yoga three time a week (minimum) and I do not play with a shoulder rest.. Ever since I invested more time doing yoga, I have had less problems dealing with various pain issues.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Leendah
Re: Pain!
when you're playing fiddle, you should be able to hold your head at a natural angle (not contorted), with your shoulders relaxed and not raised. Try not to hunch over, and don't clench and squeeze. Some folks need a rest for this, some don't. Try out some at a shop - Kun, Mach One, Bon Musica are all very different-feeling. Get a teacher to help set you up, perhaps, and consider talking to someone trained in Alexander technique.
It's not worth it to hurt to play fiddle. They're always a way to become more comfortable.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Pain!
It's obvious what's going on.
The fiddle is trying to teach you what it's like to be a fiddle.
All those ongoing tensions and stuff, I mean.
Empathise with your little brown brother that you may suffer together as you play sweet music that will break the hearts of a multitude.
Thank G-d I've never been tempted to take up the fiddle...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Pain!
Sounds like too much tension - a shoulder rest might help, but relaxation is probably the key. Like reenactor says, a rest might help you to achieve the posture that enables you to relax more, but its quite important to address the tension in your neck and shoulders regardless. Relaxing your grip and your shoulders will also improve your playing.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Pain!
New players experience the most pain, usually, but if you're a long time player you might be in trouble as your posture while playing may be the problem and changing your habits will be difficult. But relaxation is key. A shoulder rest will probably help too. Try not to dig your chin in so hard and support the fiddle with your hand; loosely.
Good luck!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Farr
Re: Pain!
Adding on to the previous suggestions, you want to find a good massage therapist (LMT, if that credential is used in Ireland). Someone who knows what they're doing can do a world of good in these things, and can usually give you a lot of good information on ways to prevent further damage.
The suggestion of yoga is a good one as well, if you practice it regularly, although you want to avoid most of what's out there. Yoga is a very simple set of stretches, which require very little instruction and no equipment or spiritual enlightenment. Anyone who tells you different is selling you a lifestyle, and should probably be avoided - yoga mats and "namaste" are the equivalent, if you like, of claddagh rings and brand new accents in the session world. And if your teacher can't teach you what you need to know about the basic stretches in maybe two lessons, they're either not a very good teacher or they're trying to string you along for the cash - more likely both.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Pain!
thanks lads!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by justabloke
Re: Pain!
Another thing occured to me justabloke, have you thought about whether the chair you sit on when you're playing is causing backache? I find that a chair with a firm level seat is best, anything that sags or slopes backwards causes problems.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by cathycook
Re: Pain! Shoulder Rest is not a Quick Fix!
Often what you need is a good chin rest; one that's high enough and has a good deep lip so it can get good purchase on the jaw. I have a good chin rest; I have never used a shoulder rest and have never got neck or shoulder pain from playing.
If the chin rest is not up to the job a shoulder rest will not help. I know a German violinist who uses a shoulder rest and still has serious neck pain, and spends a fortune on weekly therapy. The problem is tension and generally a shoulder rest is not a quick fix. Many Irish fiddlers (recently) use shoulder rests (which are often far too high), but their posture does not improve at all, and so the source of tension remains. If you have a longish neck then it's the chin rest and not the shoulder rest you should be looking at, so the fiddle can rest nicely on the collar bone. Try out lots of chin rests to see which one suits you best. I saw someone on the continent using one of these quite high, elegant SAS chin rests: https://www.viva-sas.com/chin_about.htm
An old debate: http://ww.thesession.org/discussions/display/15761/comments
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Pain!
Relaxing while you play is of the utmost importance. Good posture helps too. Not to actually play music, but to avoid hurting yourself. Sure, you can play with bad or 'folk' posture, but there's a reason why classical teachers teach good posture with the instrument, it's so you don't hurt yourself. Relax, try to never be tense while playing, and use a shoulder rest, for sure. Take breaks and stretch. Shake out your muscles.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Pain!
Good posture, and relaxation, are both also helpful for good playing. Tension keeps you from moving freely, impedes your playing. That's why we play like [expletive deleted, but it was only a moderately vulgar term I was thinking of] when we get nervous: all the muscles get tense and don't respond the way they're supposed to.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Pain!
I think whistleblower has it, except that you do need to see a doctor, if only to positively exclude anything pathological. I'd only add that if you do all your fiddle practice sitting down why not try standing up - this encourages a good posture, and you can walk around as you play. Sitting down is only for orchestras and sessions!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Pain!
oh ya i think the pain is a combination of factors, i dont blame the auld fiddle for it eh eh, but i suppose i have to admit i m not usually relaxed when i m playing at sessions and sure ye know urselves pub stools can be hell, esp when the place is jammers and you ve a few pints in you. im seeing a chiropractic this week and hopefully that ll help...
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by justabloke
Re: Pain!
I nearly always play standing. When fiddlers or violinists are seated they have to sit in such a way as to approximate the standing posture in the upper body, with the freedom of movement it allows. Cramped pub conditions are really disastrous for fiddle players; bow movement is horribly restricted, and you can see some fiddlers who have been so beaten down by cramped conditions that they hold the fiddle itself almost completely to the front rather than to the side. I don’t like playing in pubs for just this reason.
Back problems are problems with muscles, tendons, and ligaments. When the muscles etc. are relaxed the bones of the spine will align naturally. Forcing the bones of the back into a new position is trying to get to the end result without addressing the actual problem, and will do nothing in the long term to fix your problem. In fact it will stress the muscles that need to be relaxed. The trade of the Chiropractor is very dubious indeed. I’d advise something that will actually address the underlying muscular problem (Alexander technique, tai chi, yoga, massage, or what have you.) These are long-term solutions (though you’ll notice results quite quickly), and won’t wreck your back!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Pain!
I've had more of a problem with left shoulder and arm than neck or
back.
I once got into a habit of twisting my torso over to the left.
That caused some aching after long practice sessions.
You can get neck pain by using muscle tension to hold your head
down, clamping against the fiddle. I sometimes do that unconsciously
if I'm really bashing away at a tough technical problem.
Same as above for the left shoulder if you scrunch it up instead of
letting it hang open and loose.
I have found - and also read - that RSI problems on fiddle are usually
caused by a failure to relax and bad posture while playing.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Hup
Re: Pain!
... as Jon said above
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Hup
Re: Pain!
One more vote for relaxation. I've been through all the pains, and once had to stop altogether for about three years ...
Now here's what's unique from me: I make a point now of relaxing the fingers of my left-hand. The relaxation seems to flow from there to the rest of my body.
(Still can't play worth a tinker's dam, though).
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by meself
Re: Pain!
One posture I've noticed with some flute players when they're playing is that they have their head twisted as far as it can go to the left (or right as the case may be), so that the chin is virtually resting on the shoulder. I'm not sure why they adopt a position that looks inherently uncomfortable, and which, I suspect, could have deleterious effects on the anatomy of the neck in the long term.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Pain!
Todd Ehle has a video where he discusses tension points and relaxation. Well worth watching as are all his videos.
http://www.toddehle.com/
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Pain!
Yes, that type of flute position seems unnecessary. It looks cool in
photos, but I don't think you could sustain it happily through a long
session. My flute playing experience is not in Trad music
though, so maybe I don't understand the reason for it.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by Hup
Re: Pain!
Hup, Whistleblower says above: "Cramped pub conditions are really disastrous for fiddle players; bow movement is horribly restricted, and you can see some fiddlers who have been so beaten down by cramped conditions that they hold the fiddle itself almost completely to the front rather than to the side."
That's made me think (always a good thing!) - perhaps the cramped conditions could be having the same effect on the flute players as on the fiddlers, forcing them to adopt a posture in which the flute is pointed more or less to the front so that there is less interference with other players. The standard classical hold in which the player faces forward demands space to one side for the instrument.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Pain!
True 'hound good point, good point.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by Hup
Re: Pain!
Justabloke - Yes, most players of all instruments have pain. Caused by mis-use, not over-use.
For fiddling, a shoulder rest will keep the fiddle at the height and angle you like it. Most are adjustable, try a few.
You don't need a chinrest. I removed the chinrest many years ago. I let my neck go free and leave my head in the center as in normal life. I believe that I hear the fiddle better without it, which to me means that the audience hears it better, also.
This allowed me to release the horrible tensions and pains in neck and L shldr accumulated by mis-use.
My elbows rest as comfortable, by my sides. I do not lift my arms as many players do. I did that, and left off.
The part of the neck that joins the box of the fiddle rests on my hand/wrist. I do not squeeze thumb and index, or otherwise hold the fiddle at all. My LH is dead relaxed until I need to make a sound, then I use minimal muscles to hear a sound. True: while playing as large as possible on the street, or intimate fireplace music.
LHand near the box allows 3 octaves of playing without traditional shifting. Allows the LH to be entirely released, so fingers don't need to press strings all the way to the fingerboard, making and releasing sounds is easier and quicker, and expression is more natural and expressive.
And the buzz on the fingertips is exhilarating.
Pains: using muscles for what they were not intended.
And doing this for extended periods.
Lifting L shldr. Turning head and pressing it down on the fiddle.
These are common. Also: RA pulling backwards, felt under the shldr blade.
When you feel pain, find out what causes it. Do it again and learn what action causes pains where. Then mindfully release these muscles to become comfortable. Chiropracters, massage, yoga all work. But they don't fix you -- you do the essential work, starting with: choose a better way - play in a released way.
Not usually taught.
Best wishes - vlnplyr
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by vlnplyr