Given: a guitar player, who likes "celtic" music and is a good guitarist, but not an ITM one (rock & heave metal, actually). He wants to learn to accompany irish tunes. I also want him to learn that, to play together, so I'm trying to help.
First obvious thing is to give him music. Lot's of good ITM music to listen. Second obvious thing is to ask here.
Any advice? Books, video lessons, websites, etc? I'm not good in guitar - I can tell him "that's not good" or "that's better", but can't tell what to do.
This should be fun! Listen to Steve Cooney, or Lunasa or The Bothy Band or any number of others who used rock rhythms in their music. Horslips also bring back fond memories of nights in Bundoran, Co. Donegal - those were the times to drive the cold winter blues away. Blues - I luv the blues, John Lee Hooker, Blind Willie McTell, Mississippi John Hurt and Mike Cooper if anybody's ever heard him. Son House, Charlie Patton, bet they could have belted out a reel or two if they had the sheet music!!!!
On a very basic level, you can always look at the notation for the tune and figure out chord changes for backup if you read music and know chord theory... That would be in addition to mostly listening to other backup players do their thing.... Listen first, then take apart a tune or two..
That's not only about chords (although chords are an issue). That's also about how you play. I can find chords for certain tunes, but that won't help if these chords are played in "rock" style.
I don't think that because a person has rock in their background that they should incorporate that into this style of music. I also don't think that is the point.
What one can take from the other style is the way one learns the music: by listening to it and emulating that style in their playing. One doesn't usually learn rock and heavy metal by reading the dots or even following printed chord changes.
So, find some good recordings of ITM that includes guitar, have him listen to it and try it out, working it out by ear.
Get listening to a group called Horslips, which have been playing electric Irish very well for years until they broke up in the 70s, no-one has ever replaced them. Moving Hearts play a couple of good numbers as well but not as good
there used to be a band called gael force that combined heavy rock with trad tunes, it certainly worked live, never had any recordings but try it on you tube etc.
a quick look on the web shows a band of this name currently active, my memories are from the 1990's so this may not be the same lot
Breqwas-
Chris Smith's book/website are worth a look (http://coyotebanjo.com/music.html), as is the John Doyle DVD.
Besides some of the folks already mentioned, um, the Pogues. Planxty. The recordings "Paddy in the Smoke" and "Memories of Sligo" (not guitar backing, but they're part of how I got my start).
You're absolutely correct about the style thing. A bunch of fancy chords don't mean a thing if the rhythm/timing/phrasing or whatever aren't there. IMHO.
There is (to me) a pretty good guitar backer on some of the tunes on the Kitchen Sessions (I think that it was the January 11 one) that you can download: http://www.clarefm.ie/special.php?section=the%20kitchen%20sessions2
The first time that I showed up and was asking the usual naive questions about chords, charts, etc., one of the local session leaders told me to get something like a Kevin Burke solo CD and just start making up my own bits. I haven't tried it yet, but it could be fun.
It goes without saying, but it's important that he learn the tunes, at least enough so that he know's where they're going.
I hope that this helps. You're in for a heckuva good time!
...now I'm waiting for irienevins to chime in in her usual useful manner...
As a backer I find this "So, find some good recordings of ITM that includes guitar, have him listen to it and try it out, working it out by ear." to be poor advice.
First learn a bunch of correct settings. IMO this is an essential step.
The fiddlers fake book
has good settings,
though
for a newcomer to trad
Id advise
playing the simpler
settings
he
offers.
I don't think breqwas is talking about having his friend play ITM in a rock/metal style. Is this correct? He's talking about how someone with a background in another genre of music (in this case rock/metal) can become acquainted with ITM.
I've been a guitar player for 30+ years with a background in rock, metal, country, jazz and ITM. I have a lot of respect for these genres and the musicians who play them. However, there are good and bad musicians in any genre.
The most important lesson your friend must learn is that in ITM the guitar is an accompanying instrument. This is a tough lesson to learn for a rock player used to being in the spotlight and soloing. In Irish music the guitar player is well in the background. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
I see all too many guitar players butchering ITM. They know lots of nice chords and sometimes they even play them in the right places. But they're too damn loud and they're destroying the natural rhythm of the music with what they think are oh-so-clever syncopations. It's not clever at all. It's just displaying a fundamental ignorance of music. Take a look around YouTube. If you know and love this music, you'll see what I mean.
Paul Brady and Steve Cooney have been mentioned above. Your friend would do well to study these guys. (I would add Arty McGlynn to the list). If your friend is a good musician (i.e. he's prepared to listen), he'll soon get the idea. The melody instruments are the stars and it's the accompanist's job to help them in that respect not hinder them by slipping in inappropriate harmonies and interfering with the rhythms.
Personally, I have no interest in playing the guitar in ITM. I don't want to be an accompanying player (hey, I said I had a background as rock player !!!). I love the melodies and I want to play them. That's why I play fiddle. The guitar just does not cut it as an ITM melody instrument except in controlled environments like studios and concerts or hammering them out on an electric guitar. I know it can be done but hey you can play jigs and reels on a trombone but that does not mean you should! I also play pedal steel guitar and I play jigs and reels on it as an interesting practise exercise. However, I wouldn't dream of taking it to my local session. I wouldn't be very welcome once the novelty had worn off.
After all this, your friend may wish to take up the banjo, mandolin, etc. This is easy for a good guitar player. What about a real challenge and have him take up the fiddle!!! This is not as crazy as it sounds. You get a whole new perspective on the great big world of music. Your fingers get a fantastic workout; your intonation improves by orders of magnitude; your sense of rhythm improves; your sense of sensible melody....... etc, etc.
SteelPlayer and Llig! I've never seen such good suggestions on this board! I have one thing to add: modern guitar tuning/playing is geared towards straight major and minor modes. Don't forget that most of ITM is in mix or dorian modes. Alternative tunings can be very helpful in this respect, especially for drone accompaniments.
Have him watch a barrage of You Tube videos of Irish tunes being accompanied by guitar. Eventually, his glassy eyes will stray over to the right side of his screen, and he'll veer into some manouche guitar videos. He will forget all about the Irish stuff before you can say Joscho's your uncle.
O.K., so I don't know much. What I was getting at was to listen to how the music is played.
and of course, the tune comes first, and to many, it's the only thing worth playing.
Yeah ,learn the tunes . or at the very least be able to hum the melody while working out the guitar part in advance. And you have to make the melody player sound better than they would unaccompanied , which is not a small feat. That is not to say
their aren't people out there who can back on the fly. There are.
I know three in particular but they are more harmonically neutral,concentrating on rhythmic wonders. (Yes your included in that Davydd). The rhythm is "it" IMO. We had Joe Brennan from Dublin out here about 11 years ago and he showed us
the style. The best plectrum hand I have ever heard ,There are still people working on it, myself included.
Playing the tunes on the guitar is great fun. It's part of my practise workout for the guitar. Irish tunes are mostly very hard to play on a guitar in regular tuning. You have to really think about the fingering so you can reach the notes at speed. So much of rock (and Jazz) playing is really just noodling where the fingers conveniently fall on the guitar's fingerboard. You can't get away with that on the guitar. You must play the correct notes. Even if you never play Irish music in a session. Just learning some tunes and practising them regularly will improve your rock guitar playing. Get him to start with some of the real crowd pleasers - The Mason's Apron, Glasgow Reel, Sally Gardens, St. Annes Reel, etc. I think a rocker will relate to these tunes very quickly and then start to explore for themselves.
The post above makes me laugh. If a rock player really wants to get into solo acoustic guitar playing - get into Gypsy Jazz
'I've been a guitar player for 30+ years with a background in rock, metal, country, jazz and ITM.'
WOW
</endQuote>
Uh yeah.....I've been playing since I was 5. It does seem like an awful long time when you see it in black and white. It makes me think, you know I should be an awful lot better if I really am playing for that length of time..........
Hey breqwas, I see from your profile you're in Moscow. You also say in one of your posts there are no sessions in your area. So, are you going to start a session in Mockba ?
I played rock guitar for a good number of years before being introduced to Irish. I took some lessons from a great trad guitarist, who immediately made me learn to play a few tunes on guitar. His point was that to accompany a tune well, you need to know the tune.
I soon found that playing the tunes was much more enjoyable to me (probably because it's easier). So warn your friend of the slippery slope, lest he end up becoming a banjo player! (Something that I wouldn't have believed about myself in a million years when I was first starting out! )
Here are a few other suggestions of ideas for you to try to get across to your friend:
In rock guitar, it's all about the chords, in trad, guitar it's all about the rhythm. Teach him about lilt, lift, and swing. Have him listen for the nuances of the music in recordings. It will take time, but point out how the music sounds "bouncy".
In rock, the music is built from the rhythm section - up. In trad, the music is built from the melody - down. The music is complete without the accompaniment.
In rock, the guitar is king. In trad, the melody instruments are king, and the guitar can ruin it when played too heavily or with the wrong rhythm. (And the king doesn't take kindly to that!)
"In rock, the music is built from the rhythm section - up. In trad, the music is built from the melody - down. The music is complete without the accompaniment."
Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Given: a guitar player, who likes "celtic" music and is a good guitarist, but not an ITM one (rock & heave metal, actually). He wants to learn to accompany irish tunes. I also want him to learn that, to play together, so I'm trying to help.
First obvious thing is to give him music. Lot's of good ITM music to listen. Second obvious thing is to ask here.
Any advice? Books, video lessons, websites, etc? I'm not good in guitar - I can tell him "that's not good" or "that's better", but can't tell what to do.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by breqwas
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
This should be fun! Listen to Steve Cooney, or Lunasa or The Bothy Band or any number of others who used rock rhythms in their music. Horslips also bring back fond memories of nights in Bundoran, Co. Donegal - those were the times to drive the cold winter blues away. Blues - I luv the blues, John Lee Hooker, Blind Willie McTell, Mississippi John Hurt and Mike Cooper if anybody's ever heard him. Son House, Charlie Patton, bet they could have belted out a reel or two if they had the sheet music!!!!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
On a very basic level, you can always look at the notation for the tune and figure out chord changes for backup if you read music and know chord theory... That would be in addition to mostly listening to other backup players do their thing.... Listen first, then take apart a tune or two..
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by jardineromi
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
No sessions here, no other guitarists to listen...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by breqwas
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Smoke in your Eyes tune collection book has 773 tunes WITH suggested chords notated... You can get it here:
http://kinetic.seattle.wa.us/fish.html
Also the Fiddlers Fakebook is very good and has good versions of tunes and chords... (also has old time and blue grass)
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by jardineromi
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
That's not only about chords (although chords are an issue). That's also about how you play. I can find chords for certain tunes, but that won't help if these chords are played in "rock" style.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by breqwas
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
I don't think that because a person has rock in their background that they should incorporate that into this style of music. I also don't think that is the point.
What one can take from the other style is the way one learns the music: by listening to it and emulating that style in their playing. One doesn't usually learn rock and heavy metal by reading the dots or even following printed chord changes.
So, find some good recordings of ITM that includes guitar, have him listen to it and try it out, working it out by ear.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Play him a bit of Paul Brady and Andy Irvine.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
The guy with Martin Hayes. I think Dennis Cahill is the name. Now, he is a dab hand at backing a trad player.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
make him listen to Soig Siberel DAGDAD guitar albums
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by iwerzon
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Get listening to a group called Horslips, which have been playing electric Irish very well for years until they broke up in the 70s, no-one has ever replaced them. Moving Hearts play a couple of good numbers as well but not as good
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Shylock
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
there used to be a band called gael force that combined heavy rock with trad tunes, it certainly worked live, never had any recordings but try it on you tube etc.
a quick look on the web shows a band of this name currently active, my memories are from the 1990's so this may not be the same lot
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by selston steve
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Breqwas-
Chris Smith's book/website are worth a look (http://coyotebanjo.com/music.html), as is the John Doyle DVD.
Besides some of the folks already mentioned, um, the Pogues. Planxty. The recordings "Paddy in the Smoke" and "Memories of Sligo" (not guitar backing, but they're part of how I got my start).
You're absolutely correct about the style thing. A bunch of fancy chords don't mean a thing if the rhythm/timing/phrasing or whatever aren't there. IMHO.
There is (to me) a pretty good guitar backer on some of the tunes on the Kitchen Sessions (I think that it was the January 11 one) that you can download: http://www.clarefm.ie/special.php?section=the%20kitchen%20sessions2
The first time that I showed up and was asking the usual naive questions about chords, charts, etc., one of the local session leaders told me to get something like a Kevin Burke solo CD and just start making up my own bits. I haven't tried it yet, but it could be fun.
It goes without saying, but it's important that he learn the tunes, at least enough so that he know's where they're going.
I hope that this helps. You're in for a heckuva good time!
...now I'm waiting for irienevins to chime in in her usual useful manner...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by tomw
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Gael Force had at least one CD out. I remember seeing it in Borders' a couple of years or so ago. It looked good.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
As a backer I find this "So, find some good recordings of ITM that includes guitar, have him listen to it and try it out, working it out by ear." to be poor advice.
First learn a bunch of correct settings. IMO this is an essential step.
The fiddlers fake book
has good settings,
though
for a newcomer to trad
Id advise
playing the simpler
settings
he
offers.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
I don't think breqwas is talking about having his friend play ITM in a rock/metal style. Is this correct? He's talking about how someone with a background in another genre of music (in this case rock/metal) can become acquainted with ITM.
I've been a guitar player for 30+ years with a background in rock, metal, country, jazz and ITM. I have a lot of respect for these genres and the musicians who play them. However, there are good and bad musicians in any genre.
The most important lesson your friend must learn is that in ITM the guitar is an accompanying instrument. This is a tough lesson to learn for a rock player used to being in the spotlight and soloing. In Irish music the guitar player is well in the background. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
I see all too many guitar players butchering ITM. They know lots of nice chords and sometimes they even play them in the right places. But they're too damn loud and they're destroying the natural rhythm of the music with what they think are oh-so-clever syncopations. It's not clever at all. It's just displaying a fundamental ignorance of music. Take a look around YouTube. If you know and love this music, you'll see what I mean.
Paul Brady and Steve Cooney have been mentioned above. Your friend would do well to study these guys. (I would add Arty McGlynn to the list). If your friend is a good musician (i.e. he's prepared to listen), he'll soon get the idea. The melody instruments are the stars and it's the accompanist's job to help them in that respect not hinder them by slipping in inappropriate harmonies and interfering with the rhythms.
Personally, I have no interest in playing the guitar in ITM. I don't want to be an accompanying player (hey, I said I had a background as rock player !!!). I love the melodies and I want to play them. That's why I play fiddle. The guitar just does not cut it as an ITM melody instrument except in controlled environments like studios and concerts or hammering them out on an electric guitar. I know it can be done but hey you can play jigs and reels on a trombone but that does not mean you should! I also play pedal steel guitar and I play jigs and reels on it as an interesting practise exercise. However, I wouldn't dream of taking it to my local session. I wouldn't be very welcome once the novelty had worn off.
After all this, your friend may wish to take up the banjo, mandolin, etc. This is easy for a good guitar player. What about a real challenge and have him take up the fiddle!!! This is not as crazy as it sounds. You get a whole new perspective on the great big world of music. Your fingers get a fantastic workout; your intonation improves by orders of magnitude; your sense of rhythm improves; your sense of sensible melody....... etc, etc.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Why has nobody mentioned "learn the bloody tunes" yet?
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Alright then,
'learn the bloody tunes'
May your music making be always happy!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
ta
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
We all knew somebody would say "learn the bloody tunes", we just had no idea who it would be.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by ayedbl
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
SteelPlayer and Llig! I've never seen such good suggestions on this board! I have one thing to add: modern guitar tuning/playing is geared towards straight major and minor modes. Don't forget that most of ITM is in mix or dorian modes. Alternative tunings can be very helpful in this respect, especially for drone accompaniments.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
PS Steel Player: you're right about the fiddle. I'm learning now. Jole
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
I can't even spell my own name, and I write for a living . . .
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Have him watch a barrage of You Tube videos of Irish tunes being accompanied by guitar. Eventually, his glassy eyes will stray over to the right side of his screen, and he'll veer into some manouche guitar videos. He will forget all about the Irish stuff before you can say Joscho's your uncle.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
O.K., so I don't know much. What I was getting at was to listen to how the music is played.
and of course, the tune comes first, and to many, it's the only thing worth playing.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
http://www.irishguitar.net/
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by mcswiss
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Yeah ,learn the tunes . or at the very least be able to hum the melody while working out the guitar part in advance. And you have to make the melody player sound better than they would unaccompanied , which is not a small feat. That is not to say
their aren't people out there who can back on the fly. There are.
I know three in particular but they are more harmonically neutral,concentrating on rhythmic wonders. (Yes your included in that Davydd). The rhythm is "it" IMO. We had Joe Brennan from Dublin out here about 11 years ago and he showed us
the style. The best plectrum hand I have ever heard ,There are still people working on it, myself included.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Playing the tunes on the guitar is great fun. It's part of my practise workout for the guitar. Irish tunes are mostly very hard to play on a guitar in regular tuning. You have to really think about the fingering so you can reach the notes at speed. So much of rock (and Jazz) playing is really just noodling where the fingers conveniently fall on the guitar's fingerboard. You can't get away with that on the guitar. You must play the correct notes. Even if you never play Irish music in a session. Just learning some tunes and practising them regularly will improve your rock guitar playing. Get him to start with some of the real crowd pleasers - The Mason's Apron, Glasgow Reel, Sally Gardens, St. Annes Reel, etc. I think a rocker will relate to these tunes very quickly and then start to explore for themselves.
The post above makes me laugh. If a rock player really wants to get into solo acoustic guitar playing - get into Gypsy Jazz
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
'I've been a guitar player for 30+ years with a background in rock, metal, country, jazz and ITM.'
WOW
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Quote::
'I've been a guitar player for 30+ years with a background in rock, metal, country, jazz and ITM.'
WOW
</endQuote>
Uh yeah.....I've been playing since I was 5. It does seem like an awful long time when you see it in black and white. It makes me think, you know I should be an awful lot better if I really am playing for that length of time..........
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Hey breqwas, I see from your profile you're in Moscow. You also say in one of your posts there are no sessions in your area. So, are you going to start a session in Mockba ?
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
C'mon Steel Player . This is no time to be modest.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
If he is interested in mixing things upWolfstone are worth listening to: Scottish not Irish but they sound good to me
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
SteelPlayer, there was one. Search youtube for "moscow irish session". It died.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by breqwas
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Nice playing on the whistle breqwas. You really need to get another session going all right.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
I played rock guitar for a good number of years before being introduced to Irish. I took some lessons from a great trad guitarist, who immediately made me learn to play a few tunes on guitar. His point was that to accompany a tune well, you need to know the tune.
)
I soon found that playing the tunes was much more enjoyable to me (probably because it's easier). So warn your friend of the slippery slope, lest he end up becoming a banjo player! (Something that I wouldn't have believed about myself in a million years when I was first starting out!
Here are a few other suggestions of ideas for you to try to get across to your friend:
In rock guitar, it's all about the chords, in trad, guitar it's all about the rhythm. Teach him about lilt, lift, and swing. Have him listen for the nuances of the music in recordings. It will take time, but point out how the music sounds "bouncy".
In rock, the music is built from the rhythm section - up. In trad, the music is built from the melody - down. The music is complete without the accompaniment.
In rock, the guitar is king. In trad, the melody instruments are king, and the guitar can ruin it when played too heavily or with the wrong rhythm. (And the king doesn't take kindly to that!)
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
So nice it must be said twice!
"In rock, the music is built from the rhythm section - up. In trad, the music is built from the melody - down. The music is complete without the accompaniment."
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
Excellent advice from the Reverend. This can be tough for a rockin' guitar slinger to handle.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
...but, if they're good, they'll understand it...make the BAND sound good...
...very nicely put, everyone!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by tomw
Re: Introducing rock/metal guitar player to ITM
He could do worse than listen to Gwendal, a forgotten French folk rock band from way back when.
http://www.gwendal.eu/
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by dafydd