That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
For an alternate musical repast here’s something I thought you all might like, or take some interest in. For those from across the Atlantic Bog, this is currently showing in our neck of the woods but concerns you podunks:
“Folk America”
~ in 3 parts, and concerts and other things too, on BBC 4, but you can partake of it here too:
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I must have missed something, you play folk music but you have the problem with the word folk? Or do you think this is music is very important and serioius and elite and don't want to be associated with yodelers? I might be on the wrong track, I just didn't get what you're saying.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
works only in the uk... pity... and folk is- in my opinion, just a name to file anything vaguely acoustic... i use trad... or as they say in france, "new trad."...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
When you have time to reflect on your statement, Michael, I'm sure you'll realise how inane, stupid and elitist it really is. Since when has technical brilliance been the main characteristic of any genre of music? I would have thought that soul, passion and a firm belief in the significance of what you're saying was just a teeny bit more important. When I sing "All you fascists bound to lose" using 3 chords on my guitar it sounds a damned sight better than some ponces in evening dress playing elaborate reconstructions of something that the deluded have to pretend they enjoy. Get real, music is for the people, the common man, the trampled underclass and nowhere more so than where I live. Your cynicism is usually quite witty and informed but on this occasion, frankly, it's boring and more suited to pop idol.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
ha, since when has technical brilliance had anything to do with being able to play?
I'll rephrase what I said:
I hate folk music. It's just an excuse for people who can't make good music. For people who are not interested in music.
Yes, folk music is for the people, the common man. The common man is not interested in music. The odd catchy tune, something they can dance to, or more usually, something with words in it. You think the common man likes Diddley music? It all sounds the same to him, he's not interested in it in the slightest. And I'm glad
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I didn't. Strayaway did. I'm agreeing that most people don't appreciate diddley music. But it's still folk music. What I said was that it's dance music and that it didn't have the importance you were attaching to it.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
The problem is everybody's definition of "folk music" differs.
I've no intention of getting into a big discussion (again) about "What is folk music?" or how it difers from traditional music but Michael is right up to a point. For many people, it is just an excuse "to have a go" and make some kind of noise and the results don't seem to matter. "It's only folk", "The tuning's near enough for folk" and so on.
For what my opinion is worth, I see folk music as being a fairly wide and encompassing term covering several genres of which traditional music, more specifically Irish, and even more specifically "diddley dee" is just one. It's a pretty meaningless term these days but no worse than "Celtic", "Roots", "Americana" and many others. It's probably a lot more inclusive than some of these other terms but, unfortunately, it also means that people can take a lot more liberties as regards what they might consider to be folk music. And they often do...
However, while I respect Michael's viewpoint and can understand the frustration that many traditional musicians may have about being "lumped into" a so called folk scene or erroneously regarded to be mere "folk musicians" when their music is quite distinct from much of what is described as folk music it remains a fact that a large number of gigging traditional musicians earn their living by playing in folk clubs, folk festivals etc although some might also play in ceilidhs etc. You'll also encounter traditional music sessions(Irish and otherwise) at most folk festivals.
The above applies more so in the UK, of course, as in Ireland itself there seems to be much more of a distinction between what is described as "traditional" as opposed to "folk".
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
A "mere folk musician?!?!!" How dare they? What you are doing is so important and distinct and special! It's bloody kind of you lower your self to folk festivals and ceilidhs.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Yes, I think that my dislike of folk music in general is because of what John says above, the homogenisation of it all, and the people just "having a go".
Folk music is not really music, it's more of a fashion thing, it has its uniforms and clique like another fashion genre.
Folk music is, of course, most definitely not music for the common man. Pop music is that. In the grand scheme of things, folk is merely a sidelined fashion clique. And, of course (though it's obvious that I hate to admit it) diddley music is sub-clique of a clique of a clique. Although, at the very least, it's a sub-clique of people who can actually play.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
To re-emphasise what Tadhg mac Saoirse said, diddley is folk music, no ifs no buts. Michael may play some middle class version of it and that's fine if he's happy with that but I listen to the real thing, sing the real thing and try to play the real thing. Another thing, I am one of the common men and I can assure you that I do appreciate good music, and not only in the folk category. Like I said earlier, you're secretly pushing for diddley pop-idol, go on, admit it, the phone companies will love you, probably offer you a job critisising the contestants, give you shedloads of money and make you a celeb, now that is progress!
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I hate the expression 'folk music' because the phrase is meaningless; you might as well say 'jazz music' and then lump together every period and type of jazz music and performer. How about 'Jazz America' then? Still meaningless and annoying. Discussions about what particular socio-political class music belongs to is also meaningless and annoying - who are you to judge? A cat can look at a king can't he? Or are you going to let your prejudices and bias rule your behaviour and attitudes?
I hate folk Africa
I hate folk Europe
I hate folk Asia
See what I mean?
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Why on earth would I want to understand why people sing about the deflowered maidenheads of the long dead. Why on earth would I want to understand the allure of a private back room where the rank amateur stands on a 8" stage and takes 10 mins to tune his guitar.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Lot of hate there, John and to to quote your own phrase, pretty meaningless in the context that you've written it. BTW, I LOVE African folk music whether it be political or not. Everyone on this site is political, some just don't know it yet.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Phew, this is taking a turn for the better, deflowering maidens, wasn't that what the evil ruling class did to the servant girls? Of course Musgrave got his own back........and died.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That's the African continent which does indeed include those 3 countries. It's fair to say that if I lived there I'd understand it better, but workers of the world unite and all that, yes, the chains are being lost and that includes the gold ones being pawned by the greed fuelled speculators now squirming in a sea of uncertainty.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I should also mention that one of Michael's favourite groups "The Bothy Band" were heavily involved in the folk scene of the day and much of their material was distinctly "folky" including standards such as "Do you love an apple?" and so on.
The same could also be said for Planxty with both Christy Moore and Andy Irvine having been very active "travelling folkies" before and since.
So, I suppose bands like these were "hybrids", in a sense, but they paved the way for many of us to become more interested in traditional instrumental music as opposed to songs and ballads.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough strayaway. To label or parcel music as 'folk music' without being specific is annoying and pointless. It also shows a lack of understanding of the music it purports to define be it ITM, jazz or classical. It causes me intense irritation to hear something described as folk music without setting it in context. The remarks about socio-political class was intended to convey that music is non-exclusive i.e. music is for everybody, pauper or king, black or white or whatever dichotomy you chose. Steve Martin plays a 5-stringer passing well, well good for him. Or would you say he's just slumming it? Music is for any body who wants to play or listen to. Why limit yourself? I'm pleased you enjoy African folk music. Would that be tribal music, township, Arabic or what? Without context I'm not sure of what you mean. To say I hate African music is just plain silly or are we going to follow the prejudices of the chattering classes for example who denigrate 'folk music' at any opportunity?
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Wasn't that first program mainly about a branch of popular music in the USA at the start of the "record business" ? "Folk" was mentioned late on almost in quotes as 'c' put it above. Except for the busking, and the kid being asked to play his guitar for the dance when the record player broke down. And one still shot had a hell of a lot of guys with fiddles going somewhere.
And the second program was - a branch of popular music.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Yodel-aye-he-who ~ Well, I said it would make one want to yodel. I love a good yodel.
Back to the links, the first offering of this 3-part program held our interest, and we look forward to 2 & 3. The concert, well, I mostly found it irritating, except for one somewhat vaudeville-like contribution. I'm not a great fan of spam. The singer-songwriter stuff was particularly awful, IMO... To use a well worn term from these realms, it was generally too twee for my tastes, too folktastic with affected knee slappin' "Yeeha!"...
Sorry 'folks', I didn't realize you wouldn't be able to view it. Now that I think on it there have been many audio and video files from your side of the bog that we aren't allowed to view. Doesn't that seem really sad? Why can't the BBC, which is shown on cable there, be also open online to its viewers in North America, and the same with PBS over here, though, as far as I know, we don't have cable, I don't think we get that here even on cable.
Where's the 'open access' to information and media the Internet used to promise? Pester PBS to show it for you all...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I had a freind named Cambell
He used to rob steal and gamble
He tried everything that was low down
He was out tom cating one night
When he started a big fight
Then a bog policman came and knocked him down
He's in the Jailhouse now
He's in the Jailhouse now
I told him over again
to quit drinkin' whisky, lay off that gin
He's in the Jailhouse now
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That's the non-working lunch over. Just the usual common fare, nothing fancy or anything like that, might need a bit of a nap now, makes you tired all that green leaf stuff, still, highly enjoyable. Got John Maguire from Fermanagh on the lo-fi, singin' about marrowbones. Now, where were we in this debate? sh*t, I've forgotten, couldn't have been too important. Anyone here like folk music? I do.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
For me, musicality is everything. I don't like Andy Irvine's original songs, but I do love The Jolly Beggarman, The Blacksmith, The RamblingSiuler, etc. However, I must confess that on those songs I'm waiting for the lyric to be over so I can focus on the interplay between Andy and Donal. I can't stand a lot of what Christy Moore does, but I love The Good Ship Kangaroo & Raggle Taggle Gypsy (particularly when it changes to Tobhair Dom Do Lamh).
In general, I have little use for the whole singer songwriter genre, primarily because it seems to me that they spend too much time trying to be clever and not enough time practicing their instrument. Notable exceptions are David Bromberg, Leo Kottke, etc.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I wonder how many other people have worn-out cassettes with just the tunes off the Planxty records. But I think it was mainly that the songs didn't stand listening to quite so often.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Sounds like an interesting program, and it does seem a shame that we can’t access it here in the US. Reading into the posts above, sounds like it deals in part with yodeling and folk music. If you’re interested in reading more about how the glottal octave jump moved from the alps and/or the Congo to Appalachia, country & western, Tarzan yells and Yahoo! I recommend reading Bart Plantenga’s definitive yodeling book “Yodel-Ay-EE-Oooo: The Secret History of Yodeling Around the World.”
I love Jimmie Rodgers. And one of my favorite songs of all time is Patsy Montana’s version of “I Want To Be a Cowboy’s Sweetheart”. That shrieking break in the voice is like a cut on the fiddle in a way, a stylistic ornament.
Re: the hijack, I too think folk music is a far too broad term, and seems to get used by the masses to mean the singer-songwriter navel gazing crap, and badly strummed three chord guitar music. Or worse, the many unsubtle topical songs that “make a point” like in the Sing Out! songbook.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Well there was Tom Paley ( Hullo, Tom ! ) doing a bit of Uncle Dave Macon, no problem with a distinguished New York folk performer doing a bit of old-timey music, after all that was what the New Lost City Ramblers specialized in, and a lot of history about why and how the performers of old music from the '20s' got taken up by radio and record companies and turned into early stars of popular music.
But the stuff was folk, traditional, whatever you want to call it, and the dichotomy whereby what was just the local music became publicised, bought up, broadcast, and turned into commercial popular music is worth a lot of discussion.
The reasons why Llig don't like some inexperienced oik tuning his guitar badly in a backroom folk club are sociallogical, and I bet he was once, himself, wet behind the ears and an embarrassement to his fellow performers, if he would only get off his high horse for a minute to admit it.
Sure, the programme makers have to have some catchy title to get the maximum audience. I can live with that.
PS The american spellcheck facility here don't like the way I spell 'programme'.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Why folk means a guitar badly strummed to a self-penned bit of dross is also another item worthy of discussion.
Also 'Nu-Folk", which seems to mean people playing their own music using strange acoustic instruments.
On the other hand, there are some young(ish) performers coming up who do play traditional music, with the odd new take on it ( not to mention Kate Rusby ).
Dock Boggs was just one of the primeval hillbillies to record during the '20s, forgotten for decades until the folk revival of the '60s revived his career at the twilight of his life. Still, his dozen recordings from 1927 to 1929 are monuments of folk music, comprised of fatalistic hills ballads and blues like "Danville Girl," "Pretty Polly," and "Country Blues." ~ read on...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Thanks for posting this Ceol.
I may eventually set up my laptop to view BBC video. There are ways. In the meantime I will send an email to PBS regarding the series.
Fortunately we are able to stream BBC radio. Also, I have found some past BBC broadcasts on YouTube.
;)
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I had a friend named ramblin' Bob
He used to steal, gamble and rob
He thought he was the smartest guy around
Well I found out last Monday,
Bob got locked up Sunday
They put him in the jailhouse way downtown
He's in the jailhouse now
He's in the jailhouse now
Well I told him once or twice
to stop playin' cards and a shootin dice
He's in the jailhouse now
Ahdee yodeleyeee heeeee...
*Another version of the popular song-I have to say I like it
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
It sounds like an interesting show, anyway...I wish that I could see it here. Random_notes-if you figure it out, please let me know...
Guernsey Pete-I'm sorry to hear that that's happening elsewhere...around here, it's called "alt-country" - all of these bar-band guitar players trying to play mandos and the like, and some guy hitting a hand drum...and don't even get me going about the phony Southern 'accents'.
The "F" word is pretty loaded for me for various personal reasons that we needn't go into. It occurred to me a day or so ago that with the rise of blogging, maybe some of those morons that think that they should be telling other people how to think and how to live may be able to do it without setting it to bad music. So maybe there's hope and they may be safely ignored.
...Unless you listen to NPR...
IMHO.
I heard recently that David Crosby had to sell his yacht due to financial difficulties...wasn't he the guy that brought a handgun to rehab a few years ago and got thrown out?
...Teach your children well, Man!
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Thank you Pipewatcher.
I didn't know about Doc Boggs until another member of Rackensack (who plays guitar and sings) performed Boggs' song about the Prodigal Son at one of our monthly meetings.
I will have to ask this person if he has ever heard of Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I'd just like to add that I am so old that I saw Clarence Ashley play a London folk club, back in '65 or '66, with Tex Isley. I so wish I had total recall !
Folk America continues to please - another snatch of Tom Paley - hey, I actually KNOW a guy who worked with Woody Guthrie ( when he could be bothered to turn up, that is ).
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Also sorry to learn that David Crosby had to sell his yacht - it was probably the medical bills, I heard he'd had a liver transplant to cope with the damage he'd inflicted with all those drugs.
His autobiography is an engrossing read - he got other people to write large parts of it from their points of view, so you can see the effect he had on other people over the years.
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
BBC ~ American Folk History 1
I just found these clips. [This whole time I have been searching for ways to watch BBC iplayer music videos.] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVa0HpB-I90&feature
Oh yes, here is season 1 episode 1 of a comedy ceolachan also recommended, "Kröd Mändoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire" {I just downloaded it & have not watched the clip yet. I think it may only be 1/2 of the episode} http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/iTqHA5Csrr0/
Sleep tight ceol.
That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
For an alternate musical repast here’s something I thought you all might like, or take some interest in. For those from across the Atlantic Bog, this is currently showing in our neck of the woods but concerns you podunks:
Don't it just make you want to yodel?
“Folk America”
~ in 3 parts, and concerts and other things too, on BBC 4, but you can partake of it here too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gvk91
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gvk93
"FOLK!?"
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
No
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by woD
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Hey Ceolachen,
Thanks for the links but they won't work this side of the Atlantic. Pity.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ed veras
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
... nor this side of the Indian ... sigh!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Clear Drops
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I must have missed something, you play folk music but you have the problem with the word folk? Or do you think this is music is very important and serioius and elite and don't want to be associated with yodelers? I might be on the wrong track, I just didn't get what you're saying.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
works only in the uk... pity... and folk is- in my opinion, just a name to file anything vaguely acoustic... i use trad... or as they say in france, "new trad."...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Nikita Pfister
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I hate folk music. It's just an excuse for people who can't play.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
You only play so people can dance. It's not that important.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
When you have time to reflect on your statement, Michael, I'm sure you'll realise how inane, stupid and elitist it really is. Since when has technical brilliance been the main characteristic of any genre of music? I would have thought that soul, passion and a firm belief in the significance of what you're saying was just a teeny bit more important. When I sing "All you fascists bound to lose" using 3 chords on my guitar it sounds a damned sight better than some ponces in evening dress playing elaborate reconstructions of something that the deluded have to pretend they enjoy. Get real, music is for the people, the common man, the trampled underclass and nowhere more so than where I live. Your cynicism is usually quite witty and informed but on this occasion, frankly, it's boring and more suited to pop idol.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
ha, since when has technical brilliance had anything to do with being able to play?
I'll rephrase what I said:
I hate folk music. It's just an excuse for people who can't make good music. For people who are not interested in music.
Yes, folk music is for the people, the common man. The common man is not interested in music. The odd catchy tune, something they can dance to, or more usually, something with words in it. You think the common man likes Diddley music? It all sounds the same to him, he's not interested in it in the slightest. And I'm glad
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
If you play Diddley music, you're playing folk music. You feel less important now, don't you?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
But I thought you said folk muisc is music is for the people, the common man?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I didn't. Strayaway did. I'm agreeing that most people don't appreciate diddley music. But it's still folk music. What I said was that it's dance music and that it didn't have the importance you were attaching to it.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
The problem is everybody's definition of "folk music" differs.
I've no intention of getting into a big discussion (again) about "What is folk music?" or how it difers from traditional music but Michael is right up to a point. For many people, it is just an excuse "to have a go" and make some kind of noise and the results don't seem to matter. "It's only folk", "The tuning's near enough for folk" and so on.
For what my opinion is worth, I see folk music as being a fairly wide and encompassing term covering several genres of which traditional music, more specifically Irish, and even more specifically "diddley dee" is just one. It's a pretty meaningless term these days but no worse than "Celtic", "Roots", "Americana" and many others. It's probably a lot more inclusive than some of these other terms but, unfortunately, it also means that people can take a lot more liberties as regards what they might consider to be folk music. And they often do...
However, while I respect Michael's viewpoint and can understand the frustration that many traditional musicians may have about being "lumped into" a so called folk scene or erroneously regarded to be mere "folk musicians" when their music is quite distinct from much of what is described as folk music it remains a fact that a large number of gigging traditional musicians earn their living by playing in folk clubs, folk festivals etc although some might also play in ceilidhs etc. You'll also encounter traditional music sessions(Irish and otherwise) at most folk festivals.
The above applies more so in the UK, of course, as in Ireland itself there seems to be much more of a distinction between what is described as "traditional" as opposed to "folk".
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
A "mere folk musician?!?!!" How dare they? What you are doing is so important and distinct and special! It's bloody kind of you lower your self to folk festivals and ceilidhs.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Yes, I think that my dislike of folk music in general is because of what John says above, the homogenisation of it all, and the people just "having a go".
Folk music is not really music, it's more of a fashion thing, it has its uniforms and clique like another fashion genre.
Folk music is, of course, most definitely not music for the common man. Pop music is that. In the grand scheme of things, folk is merely a sidelined fashion clique. And, of course (though it's obvious that I hate to admit it) diddley music is sub-clique of a clique of a clique. Although, at the very least, it's a sub-clique of people who can actually play.
But yes, Tadhg mac, it's not important.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
To re-emphasise what Tadhg mac Saoirse said, diddley is folk music, no ifs no buts. Michael may play some middle class version of it and that's fine if he's happy with that but I listen to the real thing, sing the real thing and try to play the real thing. Another thing, I am one of the common men and I can assure you that I do appreciate good music, and not only in the folk category. Like I said earlier, you're secretly pushing for diddley pop-idol, go on, admit it, the phone companies will love you, probably offer you a job critisising the contestants, give you shedloads of money and make you a celeb, now that is progress!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Do you have to be working class to play "real" folk music? I hate it even more
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Absolutely not, Michael. But if you want to understand it I'd say that it's a huge help. You DO understand it, right, thought so.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I hate the expression 'folk music' because the phrase is meaningless; you might as well say 'jazz music' and then lump together every period and type of jazz music and performer. How about 'Jazz America' then? Still meaningless and annoying. Discussions about what particular socio-political class music belongs to is also meaningless and annoying - who are you to judge? A cat can look at a king can't he? Or are you going to let your prejudices and bias rule your behaviour and attitudes?
I hate folk Africa
I hate folk Europe
I hate folk Asia
See what I mean?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by john knoss
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Why on earth would I want to understand why people sing about the deflowered maidenheads of the long dead. Why on earth would I want to understand the allure of a private back room where the rank amateur stands on a 8" stage and takes 10 mins to tune his guitar.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Lot of hate there, John and to to quote your own phrase, pretty meaningless in the context that you've written it. BTW, I LOVE African folk music whether it be political or not. Everyone on this site is political, some just don't know it yet.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Ha, "I LOVE African folk music". Which Africa is that then? Morroco? Sudan? Namibia? Or do you have to be African to "really" understand it?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Phew, this is taking a turn for the better, deflowering maidens, wasn't that what the evil ruling class did to the servant girls? Of course Musgrave got his own back........and died.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That's the African continent which does indeed include those 3 countries. It's fair to say that if I lived there I'd understand it better, but workers of the world unite and all that, yes, the chains are being lost and that includes the gold ones being pawned by the greed fuelled speculators now squirming in a sea of uncertainty.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
If you lived in Morroco you'd understand Namibian music better?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I should also mention that one of Michael's favourite groups "The Bothy Band" were heavily involved in the folk scene of the day and much of their material was distinctly "folky" including standards such as "Do you love an apple?" and so on.
The same could also be said for Planxty with both Christy Moore and Andy Irvine having been very active "travelling folkies" before and since.
So, I suppose bands like these were "hybrids", in a sense, but they paved the way for many of us to become more interested in traditional instrumental music as opposed to songs and ballads.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough strayaway. To label or parcel music as 'folk music' without being specific is annoying and pointless. It also shows a lack of understanding of the music it purports to define be it ITM, jazz or classical. It causes me intense irritation to hear something described as folk music without setting it in context. The remarks about socio-political class was intended to convey that music is non-exclusive i.e. music is for everybody, pauper or king, black or white or whatever dichotomy you chose. Steve Martin plays a 5-stringer passing well, well good for him. Or would you say he's just slumming it? Music is for any body who wants to play or listen to. Why limit yourself? I'm pleased you enjoy African folk music. Would that be tribal music, township, Arabic or what? Without context I'm not sure of what you mean. To say I hate African music is just plain silly or are we going to follow the prejudices of the chattering classes for example who denigrate 'folk music' at any opportunity?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by john knoss
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Why the question mark, don't tell me that you don't know the answer yourself. Maybe you've never been there.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That was for Michael, will come back to you John after me lunch.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
'remarks about socio-political class was intended'
should read 'were intended'
pardon the poor quality writing please.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by john knoss
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Wasn't that first program mainly about a branch of popular music in the USA at the start of the "record business" ? "Folk" was mentioned late on almost in quotes as 'c' put it above. Except for the busking, and the kid being asked to play his guitar for the dance when the record player broke down. And one still shot had a hell of a lot of guys with fiddles going somewhere.
And the second program was - a branch of popular music.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by David50
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Yodel-aye-he-who ~ Well, I said it would make one want to yodel. I love a good yodel.
Back to the links, the first offering of this 3-part program held our interest, and we look forward to 2 & 3. The concert, well, I mostly found it irritating, except for one somewhat vaudeville-like contribution. I'm not a great fan of spam. The singer-songwriter stuff was particularly awful, IMO... To use a well worn term from these realms, it was generally too twee for my tastes, too folktastic with affected knee slappin' "Yeeha!"...
Sorry 'folks', I didn't realize you wouldn't be able to view it. Now that I think on it there have been many audio and video files from your side of the bog that we aren't allowed to view. Doesn't that seem really sad? Why can't the BBC, which is shown on cable there, be also open online to its viewers in North America, and the same with PBS over here, though, as far as I know, we don't have cable, I don't think we get that here even on cable.
Where's the 'open access' to information and media the Internet used to promise? Pester PBS to show it for you all...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I took the end of the first program as a hint that the yodeling would come next. Maybe program 3.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by David50
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I had a freind named Cambell
He used to rob steal and gamble
He tried everything that was low down
He was out tom cating one night
When he started a big fight
Then a bog policman came and knocked him down
He's in the Jailhouse now
He's in the Jailhouse now
I told him over again
to quit drinkin' whisky, lay off that gin
He's in the Jailhouse now
Yodel-eedle-oddle-ayeeee-yoodle-ee yee
etc.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
That's the non-working lunch over. Just the usual common fare, nothing fancy or anything like that, might need a bit of a nap now, makes you tired all that green leaf stuff, still, highly enjoyable. Got John Maguire from Fermanagh on the lo-fi, singin' about marrowbones. Now, where were we in this debate? sh*t, I've forgotten, couldn't have been too important. Anyone here like folk music? I do.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
For me, musicality is everything. I don't like Andy Irvine's original songs, but I do love The Jolly Beggarman, The Blacksmith, The RamblingSiuler, etc. However, I must confess that on those songs I'm waiting for the lyric to be over so I can focus on the interplay between Andy and Donal. I can't stand a lot of what Christy Moore does, but I love The Good Ship Kangaroo & Raggle Taggle Gypsy (particularly when it changes to Tobhair Dom Do Lamh).
In general, I have little use for the whole singer songwriter genre, primarily because it seems to me that they spend too much time trying to be clever and not enough time practicing their instrument. Notable exceptions are David Bromberg, Leo Kottke, etc.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I wonder how many other people have worn-out cassettes with just the tunes off the Planxty records. But I think it was mainly that the songs didn't stand listening to quite so often.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by David50
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Sounds like an interesting program, and it does seem a shame that we can’t access it here in the US. Reading into the posts above, sounds like it deals in part with yodeling and folk music. If you’re interested in reading more about how the glottal octave jump moved from the alps and/or the Congo to Appalachia, country & western, Tarzan yells and Yahoo! I recommend reading Bart Plantenga’s definitive yodeling book “Yodel-Ay-EE-Oooo: The Secret History of Yodeling Around the World.”
http://www.bartplantenga.com/yodel.php?Yodel_History
I love Jimmie Rodgers. And one of my favorite songs of all time is Patsy Montana’s version of “I Want To Be a Cowboy’s Sweetheart”. That shrieking break in the voice is like a cut on the fiddle in a way, a stylistic ornament.
Re: the hijack, I too think folk music is a far too broad term, and seems to get used by the masses to mean the singer-songwriter navel gazing crap, and badly strummed three chord guitar music. Or worse, the many unsubtle topical songs that “make a point” like in the Sing Out! songbook.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by fidkid
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Well there was Tom Paley ( Hullo, Tom ! ) doing a bit of Uncle Dave Macon, no problem with a distinguished New York folk performer doing a bit of old-timey music, after all that was what the New Lost City Ramblers specialized in, and a lot of history about why and how the performers of old music from the '20s' got taken up by radio and record companies and turned into early stars of popular music.
But the stuff was folk, traditional, whatever you want to call it, and the dichotomy whereby what was just the local music became publicised, bought up, broadcast, and turned into commercial popular music is worth a lot of discussion.
The reasons why Llig don't like some inexperienced oik tuning his guitar badly in a backroom folk club are sociallogical, and I bet he was once, himself, wet behind the ears and an embarrassement to his fellow performers, if he would only get off his high horse for a minute to admit it.
Sure, the programme makers have to have some catchy title to get the maximum audience. I can live with that.
PS The american spellcheck facility here don't like the way I spell 'programme'.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Yes, Jimmie Rodgers comes into the last part of programme #1...
Thanks for the recommended read fidkid, should be a kick, if I can secure a copy. ...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Us 'old folkies' new we were in trouble when John Denver was officially sanctioned as a folk player.....
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by zippydw
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Folk clubs in England used to be numerous, and were great for a night out. Must have organised a few myself I confess.
Ireland ids full of "Folk" groups, a lot of songs with tunes thrown in as well, such as The Dubliners, McPeakes, Planxty, and what have you.
I lurv' folk music.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Yodel-Ay-EE-Oooo at Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Yodel-Ay-Ee-Oooo-Secret-History-Yodeling-Around/dp/0415939909/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by fidkid
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Why folk means a guitar badly strummed to a self-penned bit of dross is also another item worthy of discussion.
Also 'Nu-Folk", which seems to mean people playing their own music using strange acoustic instruments.
On the other hand, there are some young(ish) performers coming up who do play traditional music, with the odd new take on it ( not to mention Kate Rusby ).
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
i really enjoyed that program.
interesting bit of history about the early recording industry.
plus i'd never heard of Dock Boggs before, now im obsessed.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by DubChieftain
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
A favourite site: All Music
http://www.allmusic.com/
~ Artist/Group, enter ~ Dock Boggs
Dock Boggs ~ Biography by John Bush
Dock Boggs was just one of the primeval hillbillies to record during the '20s, forgotten for decades until the folk revival of the '60s revived his career at the twilight of his life. Still, his dozen recordings from 1927 to 1929 are monuments of folk music, comprised of fatalistic hills ballads and blues like "Danville Girl," "Pretty Polly," and "Country Blues." ~ read on...
And there's a great photo of the man too...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ceolachan
I wanna be a 'primeval hillbilly'...
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Thanks for posting this Ceol.
I may eventually set up my laptop to view BBC video. There are ways. In the meantime I will send an email to PBS regarding the series.
Fortunately we are able to stream BBC radio. Also, I have found some past BBC broadcasts on YouTube.
;)
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I had a friend named ramblin' Bob
He used to steal, gamble and rob
He thought he was the smartest guy around
Well I found out last Monday,
Bob got locked up Sunday
They put him in the jailhouse way downtown
He's in the jailhouse now
He's in the jailhouse now
Well I told him once or twice
to stop playin' cards and a shootin dice
He's in the jailhouse now
Ahdee yodeleyeee heeeee...
*Another version of the popular song-I have to say I like it
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by jlocky
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
~ me too...
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
It sounds like an interesting show, anyway...I wish that I could see it here. Random_notes-if you figure it out, please let me know...
Guernsey Pete-I'm sorry to hear that that's happening elsewhere...around here, it's called "alt-country" - all of these bar-band guitar players trying to play mandos and the like, and some guy hitting a hand drum...and don't even get me going about the phony Southern 'accents'.
The "F" word is pretty loaded for me for various personal reasons that we needn't go into. It occurred to me a day or so ago that with the rise of blogging, maybe some of those morons that think that they should be telling other people how to think and how to live may be able to do it without setting it to bad music. So maybe there's hope and they may be safely ignored.
...Unless you listen to NPR...
IMHO.
I heard recently that David Crosby had to sell his yacht due to financial difficulties...wasn't he the guy that brought a handgun to rehab a few years ago and got thrown out?
...Teach your children well, Man!
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by tomw
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Dock Boggs and Jimmie Rodgers are in this program and I can't watch it. This is not good.
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Thank you for posting the link anyway, Ceolachan.
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
If you like Dock Boggs, you should know about Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley- in many ways even more primieval!
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Thank you Pipewatcher.
I didn't know about Doc Boggs until another member of Rackensack (who plays guitar and sings) performed Boggs' song about the Prodigal Son at one of our monthly meetings.
I will have to ask this person if he has ever heard of Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
I'd just like to add that I am so old that I saw Clarence Ashley play a London folk club, back in '65 or '66, with Tex Isley. I so wish I had total recall !
Folk America continues to please - another snatch of Tom Paley - hey, I actually KNOW a guy who worked with Woody Guthrie ( when he could be bothered to turn up, that is ).
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
Also sorry to learn that David Crosby had to sell his yacht - it was probably the medical bills, I heard he'd had a liver transplant to cope with the damage he'd inflicted with all those drugs.
His autobiography is an engrossing read - he got other people to write large parts of it from their points of view, so you can see the effect he had on other people over the years.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: That dreaded word, poppin' an' fizzin' ~ "Folk America"
BBC ~ American Folk History 1
I just found these clips. [This whole time I have been searching for ways to watch BBC iplayer music videos.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVa0HpB-I90&feature
Oh yes, here is season 1 episode 1 of a comedy ceolachan also recommended, "Kröd Mändoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire" {I just downloaded it & have not watched the clip yet. I think it may only be 1/2 of the episode}
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/iTqHA5Csrr0/
Sleep tight ceol.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
"Folk America"
I just reread this entire thread. Most of it is simply sad.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen