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How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Up for discussion – what is the differentiation between taking inspiration from a musician you admire and incorporating it into your own playing and slavishly copying a set and/or version of a tune from a player you wish to play like?
Just to further explain my question; most good musicians will have evidence of their inspiration in their playing; be it repertoire, technique, instrumentation, whatever. In many instances these musical ‘references’ are a mark of respect.
To give an example – you can hear big influences of Morrison in Frankie Gavin’s fiddle playing. And you can hear big influences of Gavin in Mick Conneely’s playing. But, whether they are your favourite players or not, you certainly couldn’t accuse Gavin or Conneely of plagiarism; they’ve redacted the music they like into their own.
The other extreme is people ‘lifting’ entire versions of sets, variations and all, and playing in sessions about the place. For some reason, Harry Bradley’s playing seems to draw in a lot of these types of musicians. I like to refer to these people as “Harry Badleys”. Now, their admiration for Harry is understandable, he’s a stunning musician, but the ‘copying’ of his music justifiable? I think not. And this is evident with other musicians in commercial recordings too, not just sessions. I’ll resist the urge to name recordings I think are guilty of this as to do so would prove no purpose other than to be nasty.
So what is your perception of the line? I for one love hearing references in music – I see it as a mark of respect to those who have influenced them and it also gives an insight into the musician and their tastes, which can only further your understanding of their music and ultimately derive more enjoyment from their playing. But to slavishly copy someone, for me, borders on immoral.
Interested to hear other takes on the argument. Please resist temptation to throw dictionary definitions of ‘plagiarism’ onto the board and see the terminology within the context it’s delivered.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I think copying is a very natural and laudable part of the learning process - it's been a major part of the teaching and learning of the arts and other skills throughout history. It's principally - IMO - been a means of internalising how a more proficient person has made something work.
I could continue, but food and drink call insistently...
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Copying settings and style is a key part of any musicians' development. I have found (your results may vary) that it's impossible to 'take inspiration' and 'incorporate it into your own style' when you have no style yet, so one must simply copy. Copy from many different folks,continue to play over and over, and eventually one will develop one's own style, where you then can find in that unique style the hints of others which you admire so much.
However, I don't think anyone can get to point B (unique style with hints or tributes to others) without going through path A (outright copying). There are amazingly gifted folks, but all of the ones I've studied at some point admit that they tried to play just like so and so, or several folks, be they family members, teachers, or all, and then eventually developed their own style. This is the nature of how a musician develops.
I think your spite is reserved for those who do not develop their own style and simply pass off downright copying as innovation, or as something worthy of great praise, in which case I agree with you, but I could be wrong.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Copying is the only way you can learn tunes – isn’t that the way its always been? Doesn't have to be slavish – just learn the tune in your head. It comes later in your instrument.
You can listen ad infinitum to your favourite recording, but you will never get it until you’ve slept a night with the tune itself running through your head.
Next morning it’s yours.
That’s my experience anyways.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I think I've mentioned this before, but it's relevant: When I was a kid, and got Kevin Burke's If the Cap Fits, I remember saying to myself that when I could play toss the feathers like Kevin Burke, I'd be able to play the fiddle. But the thing was, it wasn't until I could play toss the feathers like Kevin Burke, I was able to realise that all I could really do was play toss the feathers like Kevin Burke. Which is a long long way from being able to play the fiddle. Though, as SWFL says, it was still an important thing to do.
Though I think there is still plenty of homage to be had in playing famous sets. Some sets are just so perfect that to make a point of not plaing them because you are worried about the line between emulation and plagiarism is simply missing out on a lot of fun.
I'm not saying that you can't split up said sets and play the tunes with other tunes, I think you should be doing that. But once in a while, enjoy the homage.
I don't think you've lived until you've rocketed through the Bothy Band's jig and five reels (including the harmonies in that reel in the middle) down the boozer with your mates.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Yes, I would agree with that. I would say most musicians would be flattered by others playing their versions and sets of tunes, certainly at sessions and for fun. I would draw the line at recording them though. Folk who feel they are decent enough to record stuff should be at least good enough to put together decent arrangements and sets.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Copying is fundamental to the learning process for any skill. Go into an art gallery and you might see a student artist copying a painting. A child learns to speak a language by copying what it hears. An apprentice in a trade, when he wasn't sweeping the floor, would spend some of his time watching his master at work, and then, when given his first little job - such as painting a door - would copy what he saw his master do.
I copy when I learn a tune, whether it's in a session, from a teacher (but not often from a recording unless it is live), or even from the dots if no other source is available. Mysteriously, a little while after I've learnt the tune, little changes appear and what I'm playing is no longer identical to the original; that is how things should be.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Interestingly, I read an interview with a young fiddler recently who was advised to record a collection of tunes while she had her own style, and >before< she took on too many influences.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Interesting discussion. and one I feel is important in this day and age. If ,as I think we agree, copying is an essential stage in our musical development, then where is this 'line' ?
IMO then too much copying of an individual player can lead to , something that is all to prevaliant these days, clones.
IMO the answer is to deliberately avoid this trap, The tune and its variations are the ground upon which we improvise using the various articulations and ornaments suitable for our instrument. So learn the tune, and listen to all the old trad, a lot. that way the internalisation of the style becomes unconscious. Dont copy note for note, just listen and enjoy. Absorb the playing of the masters.
We have to remember that most of the old players grew up with out the access to music that we have, a tune might be heard one night, the 'bones' picked up and then the player might make up bits he couldnt remember. So all though he learnt it from a particular player the version they come up with would be quite different.
Its only with the advent of mass media that allows us to copy note for note, variation for variation and become a clone.
I feel that learning the tune, knowing your instrument and mastering the ornaments and articulations are the main steps. Then combine these in your own way, find your own voice.
If your style is developed by copying note for note from a recording then how can you be developing in a traditional way? The results we wish to achieve , can not be seperated from the method we use to achieve them, they are a part of it.
Now of course in some cases we have the son passing on and developing a family style, where does this fit in?
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Here's what I've tried to do lately. There are sets I hear that seem like pure magic: Martin Hayes' Brown Coffin/Goodnatured Man comes to mind. At home, I may play it as-is just for my own learning and fun. But then I'll take each song, look for it in a more popular key, and try to pair it with a different tune to create new set. I'll also try to find and listen to some other settings of the tune. To play the set as Martin plays it would make me feel like I was just a cover band. I agree with everything that's been said.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
You might indeed start out copying slavishly but I guarantee that if you were able to compare what you play after a couple of years to what you thought you had learnt there would be many significant differences.
I wonder how many people would be able to play the piece exactly the same twice? And would you want to?
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
What a beautifully crafted question.
I like the distinction between copying as a nod to influence as opposed to copying because you can't string a few tunes together on your own initiative.
It's like dialect phrases, if you've had the luck to live in different areas for a while throughout your life. You'll pick up some of the nuance, some of the words. You'll call people "my lil lover" or "all rhaat me duck" or you'll say "he made a right hames out of that" and they are all phrases that have become part of your vocabulary. But to speak in either a Devon, a Notts, or a Belfast Accent all the time is a sad measure of your own character.
Plagiarism comes knocking when laziness steps in the door.
Again, applause to flying fists there. Most of the replies have missed the point in my opinion.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Yes, it's a beautifully crafted question. It's making me think.
I think that comparing what you know with what you knew is symptomatic of the oft used cliché about learning the music being a journey and not a destination. I think it's more subtle than that.
When I was young I had idols and when I was a little older I looked to my idol's idols and questioned the lines between emulation and plagiarism. I'm interested in this stuff.
I had a big ego when I was younger.
But I think the magic of the music sorted me out. There is no line between emulation and plagiarism. The music is the music and when it seeps through your bones, it's your bones that play it. And your bones are not your idol's bones or your idol's idols' bones, they are yours. And so .... the music becomes yours.
You cannot articulate it with written or spoken language. And you cannot not articulate it with the language of the music itself.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I can identify with a lot of that, Michael. There comes a point where honesty steps in, when you've learned what it's about, and while the learning process never ceases, you have to throw your hands up and begin to play as yourself, for better or for worse, although the worse is still better than slavish copying.
I remember my old ego with embarrassment these days.
When push comes to shove, if my playing makes the other people I play with happy, then I'm content.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
The difference between copying other players and absorbing influences, from what I've seen, is just the difference between two sorts of people. Some people really don't seem to grasp that there's a tune underneath all the stuff that their hero plays, and that's what we're looking to play, not the fluff on top.
It must be great to be able to hear well enough to play back someone's version of a tune with that kind of precision - but it must be sort of boring to be able to do nothing else.
Me, I can do neither - I'm lucky if I can hold the whole tune together some days. But when it works, I know it's me playing, and that's pretty good.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
A bit off the topic but in the process of trying plagiarise Frankie
Gavin's version of Lucy Campbell's I discovered he swings even more on slowdowner at bottom speed than he does
at full pace. Remarkable.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
thanks to all for your responses.
I see that a few at the start of the board may have viewed this topic as some how condescending to people learning the music. It was not meant this way. The argument put forward by many that it is an essential learning process for beginners is entirely fair and valid. Maybe the nature of my question is more angled to the 'established' quarters of the ITM performers - people deriving a living/financial gain from performing/recording.
This is where the 'line' issue comes in, and is the crux of the question.
One thing that helps me distinguish between the two is the NUMBER of influences in someone's playing. Any truly gifted musician will have a number of elements (people) in their playing. You can hear influences of Donegal and Clare in Peoples' playing. Also, many musicians go through 'phases' within their playing. Early Clancy sounds a lot more like Doran than later recordings. It is, IMHO, one of the most interesting reasons to listen to the first recordings of ITM and the Golden period of the 20s - you get an insight into the music that would have influenced these people and the music they grew up listening to.
This discussion is entirely born out of the development of recorded Irish music. As commented on by others, the older generations of musicians didn't have 60Gb iPods loaded to the brim with recordings, so the facility for learning a version of a tune note 4 note was not as common. Perhaps the ease of our accessibility to the music is what has helped cause the element of plagiarism within the music.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Ok but its also a cultural thing too, I think. Society superficially condemns plagiarism, yet we find it in all walks of life and people can get away with it .
I listen to all the early recordings I can get for a number of reasons; firstly I enjoy listening to the music, but also because as a musician I like to hear how other people play the tunes, and those recordings offer a great view on how it was done then. As a trad musician those recordings influence me a lot. Not that I copy them, I wouldnt dream of copying another player,l I never have, apart from the tune learning process and generally I would be learning the bones only.
What I do is pick up ideas: I love it when a great player such as Tony MacMahon ornaments a tune in places and ways that would never occur to me. The different personal and regional styles all stimulate me, the different ways the a tune can be played.
Oh yes we are lucky, lucky people to have such a wealth of trad only a click or two away. I am constantly searching out old recordings and not so old and I recomend any musician interested in trad to do the same.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
ffopp, I am under the impression that pipers, both Uilleann & Scottish, commonly learn most of their tunes note for note from their mentor. At least in the early stages. If so this might help to explain why, in later years, some pipers try & put this tendency behind them. ~ to find their voice?
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Not to digress, but Michael-
"I don't think you've lived until you've rocketed through the Bothy Band's jig and five reels (including the harmonies in that reel in the middle) down the boozer with your mates"
Oooh, tell me more...which recording? Titles? YouTube?
Thanks!
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
As someone so new to this style of music I'm so green i squeak. I find this discussion very interesting. I notice you guys are all about picking up a tune by ear or by teaching, note by the dots(as someone put it). As a new player without easy access to teachers and a more classical back ground (I'm not a fan of it due to its inflexibility).
My view on this is that comes back to that flexiblity thing. If a player is not exersising that freedom in this style of music, then they have stepped into plagiarism, sure for a squeaky newbie like myself that variation may be minor, whether in the timing or ornimentation but it should still be there.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
You have to be careful though, especially when crossing from another genre. There is a tendency to overdo the flexibility thing and it's understandable, you are enjoying your freedom. But you should be being flexible only within the style. And until you get the style, copying someone's playing as exactly as you can is a vital exercise (and good fun too, of course)
However, this is where playing with real people is exponentially better than copying recordings. It is easy to copy exactly a recording because it is inflexible. But the flexibility that really is the music introduces the dichotomy of wanting and needing to learn and reproduce it accurately, but from an ever-changing source.
This music is riddled with inconsistencies, conundrums and dichotomies. And they all should be embraced.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
That great trad jazz musician Acker Bilk was 80 the other day - and still playing (2 gigs coming up this weekend). He is self-taught, and says he can read music a little, but "not enough to do any harm". There's a message in there somewhere.
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I can't stand to listen to Acker Bilk, being a pretty serious clarinettist
once (at least in my own mind). I wonder if that's what it's like for a
pro violinist listening to somebody like Canny or Crehan?
How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Up for discussion – what is the differentiation between taking inspiration from a musician you admire and incorporating it into your own playing and slavishly copying a set and/or version of a tune from a player you wish to play like?
Just to further explain my question; most good musicians will have evidence of their inspiration in their playing; be it repertoire, technique, instrumentation, whatever. In many instances these musical ‘references’ are a mark of respect.
To give an example – you can hear big influences of Morrison in Frankie Gavin’s fiddle playing. And you can hear big influences of Gavin in Mick Conneely’s playing. But, whether they are your favourite players or not, you certainly couldn’t accuse Gavin or Conneely of plagiarism; they’ve redacted the music they like into their own.
The other extreme is people ‘lifting’ entire versions of sets, variations and all, and playing in sessions about the place. For some reason, Harry Bradley’s playing seems to draw in a lot of these types of musicians. I like to refer to these people as “Harry Badleys”. Now, their admiration for Harry is understandable, he’s a stunning musician, but the ‘copying’ of his music justifiable? I think not. And this is evident with other musicians in commercial recordings too, not just sessions. I’ll resist the urge to name recordings I think are guilty of this as to do so would prove no purpose other than to be nasty.
So what is your perception of the line? I for one love hearing references in music – I see it as a mark of respect to those who have influenced them and it also gives an insight into the musician and their tastes, which can only further your understanding of their music and ultimately derive more enjoyment from their playing. But to slavishly copy someone, for me, borders on immoral.
Interested to hear other takes on the argument. Please resist temptation to throw dictionary definitions of ‘plagiarism’ onto the board and see the terminology within the context it’s delivered.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by flying fists of poo poo
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I think copying is a very natural and laudable part of the learning process - it's been a major part of the teaching and learning of the arts and other skills throughout history. It's principally - IMO - been a means of internalising how a more proficient person has made something work.
I could continue, but food and drink call insistently...
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by nicholas
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Copying settings and style is a key part of any musicians' development. I have found (your results may vary) that it's impossible to 'take inspiration' and 'incorporate it into your own style' when you have no style yet, so one must simply copy. Copy from many different folks,continue to play over and over, and eventually one will develop one's own style, where you then can find in that unique style the hints of others which you admire so much.
However, I don't think anyone can get to point B (unique style with hints or tributes to others) without going through path A (outright copying). There are amazingly gifted folks, but all of the ones I've studied at some point admit that they tried to play just like so and so, or several folks, be they family members, teachers, or all, and then eventually developed their own style. This is the nature of how a musician develops.
I think your spite is reserved for those who do not develop their own style and simply pass off downright copying as innovation, or as something worthy of great praise, in which case I agree with you, but I could be wrong.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Cross-post with nicholas, yeah, what he said.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Copying is the only way you can learn tunes – isn’t that the way its always been? Doesn't have to be slavish – just learn the tune in your head. It comes later in your instrument.
You can listen ad infinitum to your favourite recording, but you will never get it until you’ve slept a night with the tune itself running through your head.
Next morning it’s yours.
That’s my experience anyways.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by bindicat
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I think I've mentioned this before, but it's relevant: When I was a kid, and got Kevin Burke's If the Cap Fits, I remember saying to myself that when I could play toss the feathers like Kevin Burke, I'd be able to play the fiddle. But the thing was, it wasn't until I could play toss the feathers like Kevin Burke, I was able to realise that all I could really do was play toss the feathers like Kevin Burke. Which is a long long way from being able to play the fiddle. Though, as SWFL says, it was still an important thing to do.
Though I think there is still plenty of homage to be had in playing famous sets. Some sets are just so perfect that to make a point of not plaing them because you are worried about the line between emulation and plagiarism is simply missing out on a lot of fun.
I'm not saying that you can't split up said sets and play the tunes with other tunes, I think you should be doing that. But once in a while, enjoy the homage.
I don't think you've lived until you've rocketed through the Bothy Band's jig and five reels (including the harmonies in that reel in the middle) down the boozer with your mates.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by ...
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Yes, I would agree with that. I would say most musicians would be flattered by others playing their versions and sets of tunes, certainly at sessions and for fun. I would draw the line at recording them though. Folk who feel they are decent enough to record stuff should be at least good enough to put together decent arrangements and sets.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Copying is fundamental to the learning process for any skill. Go into an art gallery and you might see a student artist copying a painting. A child learns to speak a language by copying what it hears. An apprentice in a trade, when he wasn't sweeping the floor, would spend some of his time watching his master at work, and then, when given his first little job - such as painting a door - would copy what he saw his master do.
I copy when I learn a tune, whether it's in a session, from a teacher (but not often from a recording unless it is live), or even from the dots if no other source is available. Mysteriously, a little while after I've learnt the tune, little changes appear and what I'm playing is no longer identical to the original; that is how things should be.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Interestingly, I read an interview with a young fiddler recently who was advised to record a collection of tunes while she had her own style, and >before< she took on too many influences.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Interesting discussion. and one I feel is important in this day and age. If ,as I think we agree, copying is an essential stage in our musical development, then where is this 'line' ?
IMO then too much copying of an individual player can lead to , something that is all to prevaliant these days, clones.
IMO the answer is to deliberately avoid this trap, The tune and its variations are the ground upon which we improvise using the various articulations and ornaments suitable for our instrument. So learn the tune, and listen to all the old trad, a lot. that way the internalisation of the style becomes unconscious. Dont copy note for note, just listen and enjoy. Absorb the playing of the masters.
We have to remember that most of the old players grew up with out the access to music that we have, a tune might be heard one night, the 'bones' picked up and then the player might make up bits he couldnt remember. So all though he learnt it from a particular player the version they come up with would be quite different.
Its only with the advent of mass media that allows us to copy note for note, variation for variation and become a clone.
I feel that learning the tune, knowing your instrument and mastering the ornaments and articulations are the main steps. Then combine these in your own way, find your own voice.
If your style is developed by copying note for note from a recording then how can you be developing in a traditional way? The results we wish to achieve , can not be seperated from the method we use to achieve them, they are a part of it.
Now of course in some cases we have the son passing on and developing a family style, where does this fit in?
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Here's what I've tried to do lately. There are sets I hear that seem like pure magic: Martin Hayes' Brown Coffin/Goodnatured Man comes to mind. At home, I may play it as-is just for my own learning and fun. But then I'll take each song, look for it in a more popular key, and try to pair it with a different tune to create new set. I'll also try to find and listen to some other settings of the tune. To play the set as Martin plays it would make me feel like I was just a cover band. I agree with everything that's been said.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by nofrets
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
You might indeed start out copying slavishly but I guarantee that if you were able to compare what you play after a couple of years to what you thought you had learnt there would be many significant differences.
I wonder how many people would be able to play the piece exactly the same twice? And would you want to?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by john knoss
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
What a beautifully crafted question.
I like the distinction between copying as a nod to influence as opposed to copying because you can't string a few tunes together on your own initiative.
It's like dialect phrases, if you've had the luck to live in different areas for a while throughout your life. You'll pick up some of the nuance, some of the words. You'll call people "my lil lover" or "all rhaat me duck" or you'll say "he made a right hames out of that" and they are all phrases that have become part of your vocabulary. But to speak in either a Devon, a Notts, or a Belfast Accent all the time is a sad measure of your own character.
Plagiarism comes knocking when laziness steps in the door.
Again, applause to flying fists there. Most of the replies have missed the point in my opinion.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Yes, it's a beautifully crafted question. It's making me think.
I think that comparing what you know with what you knew is symptomatic of the oft used cliché about learning the music being a journey and not a destination. I think it's more subtle than that.
When I was young I had idols and when I was a little older I looked to my idol's idols and questioned the lines between emulation and plagiarism. I'm interested in this stuff.
I had a big ego when I was younger.
But I think the magic of the music sorted me out. There is no line between emulation and plagiarism. The music is the music and when it seeps through your bones, it's your bones that play it. And your bones are not your idol's bones or your idol's idols' bones, they are yours. And so .... the music becomes yours.
You cannot articulate it with written or spoken language. And you cannot not articulate it with the language of the music itself.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by ...
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I can identify with a lot of that, Michael. There comes a point where honesty steps in, when you've learned what it's about, and while the learning process never ceases, you have to throw your hands up and begin to play as yourself, for better or for worse, although the worse is still better than slavish copying.
I remember my old ego with embarrassment these days.
When push comes to shove, if my playing makes the other people I play with happy, then I'm content.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
The difference between copying other players and absorbing influences, from what I've seen, is just the difference between two sorts of people. Some people really don't seem to grasp that there's a tune underneath all the stuff that their hero plays, and that's what we're looking to play, not the fluff on top.
It must be great to be able to hear well enough to play back someone's version of a tune with that kind of precision - but it must be sort of boring to be able to do nothing else.
Me, I can do neither - I'm lucky if I can hold the whole tune together some days. But when it works, I know it's me playing, and that's pretty good.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
A bit off the topic but in the process of trying plagiarise Frankie
Gavin's version of Lucy Campbell's I discovered he swings even more on slowdowner at bottom speed than he does
at full pace. Remarkable.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Sometimes the line between emulation and plagiarism is blurry--speaking from my own experience.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
thanks to all for your responses.
I see that a few at the start of the board may have viewed this topic as some how condescending to people learning the music. It was not meant this way. The argument put forward by many that it is an essential learning process for beginners is entirely fair and valid. Maybe the nature of my question is more angled to the 'established' quarters of the ITM performers - people deriving a living/financial gain from performing/recording.
This is where the 'line' issue comes in, and is the crux of the question.
One thing that helps me distinguish between the two is the NUMBER of influences in someone's playing. Any truly gifted musician will have a number of elements (people) in their playing. You can hear influences of Donegal and Clare in Peoples' playing. Also, many musicians go through 'phases' within their playing. Early Clancy sounds a lot more like Doran than later recordings. It is, IMHO, one of the most interesting reasons to listen to the first recordings of ITM and the Golden period of the 20s - you get an insight into the music that would have influenced these people and the music they grew up listening to.
This discussion is entirely born out of the development of recorded Irish music. As commented on by others, the older generations of musicians didn't have 60Gb iPods loaded to the brim with recordings, so the facility for learning a version of a tune note 4 note was not as common. Perhaps the ease of our accessibility to the music is what has helped cause the element of plagiarism within the music.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by flying fists of poo poo
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Ok but its also a cultural thing too, I think. Society superficially condemns plagiarism, yet we find it in all walks of life and people can get away with it .
I listen to all the early recordings I can get for a number of reasons; firstly I enjoy listening to the music, but also because as a musician I like to hear how other people play the tunes, and those recordings offer a great view on how it was done then. As a trad musician those recordings influence me a lot. Not that I copy them, I wouldnt dream of copying another player,l I never have, apart from the tune learning process and generally I would be learning the bones only.
What I do is pick up ideas: I love it when a great player such as Tony MacMahon ornaments a tune in places and ways that would never occur to me. The different personal and regional styles all stimulate me, the different ways the a tune can be played.
Oh yes we are lucky, lucky people to have such a wealth of trad only a click or two away. I am constantly searching out old recordings and not so old and I recomend any musician interested in trad to do the same.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
ffopp, I am under the impression that pipers, both Uilleann & Scottish, commonly learn most of their tunes note for note from their mentor. At least in the early stages. If so this might help to explain why, in later years, some pipers try & put this tendency behind them. ~ to find their voice?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
Not to digress, but Michael-
"I don't think you've lived until you've rocketed through the Bothy Band's jig and five reels (including the harmonies in that reel in the middle) down the boozer with your mates"
Oooh, tell me more...which recording? Titles? YouTube?
Thanks!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by tomw
Just a guess . . .
jig/"Around The World/Rip The Calico/Martin Wynne's/The Enchanted Lady/The Holy Land"
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
As if they in turn hadn't copied the last two off Killoran
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9486
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by ...
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
As someone so new to this style of music I'm so green i squeak. I find this discussion very interesting. I notice you guys are all about picking up a tune by ear or by teaching, note by the dots(as someone put it). As a new player without easy access to teachers and a more classical back ground (I'm not a fan of it due to its inflexibility).
My view on this is that comes back to that flexiblity thing. If a player is not exersising that freedom in this style of music, then they have stepped into plagiarism, sure for a squeaky newbie like myself that variation may be minor, whether in the timing or ornimentation but it should still be there.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Sarah Ewens
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
You have to be careful though, especially when crossing from another genre. There is a tendency to overdo the flexibility thing and it's understandable, you are enjoying your freedom. But you should be being flexible only within the style. And until you get the style, copying someone's playing as exactly as you can is a vital exercise (and good fun too, of course)
However, this is where playing with real people is exponentially better than copying recordings. It is easy to copy exactly a recording because it is inflexible. But the flexibility that really is the music introduces the dichotomy of wanting and needing to learn and reproduce it accurately, but from an ever-changing source.
This music is riddled with inconsistencies, conundrums and dichotomies. And they all should be embraced.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by ...
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
That great trad jazz musician Acker Bilk was 80 the other day - and still playing (2 gigs coming up this weekend). He is self-taught, and says he can read music a little, but "not enough to do any harm". There's a message in there somewhere.
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How to articulate a line between emulation and plagiarism within traditional irish music.
I can't stand to listen to Acker Bilk, being a pretty serious clarinettist
once (at least in my own mind). I wonder if that's what it's like for a
pro violinist listening to somebody like Canny or Crehan?
# Posted on January 30th 2009 by Hup