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Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Like many others, I am trying to expand my repertoire, and my teacher is very helpful with providing creative new music to learn-though at one session someone said one tune I offered was a bit obscure.
I am learning a march (not as an air) The Boyne Water aka Cry of Munster, aka Rosc Catha Na Mumhan. Nice tune, Great beat. Fun to play. Having married into a family of Northwest Catholic descent though, it was quickly brought to my attention that as a march, it celebrated King Williams Victory and is prominent traditionally in Orange Day parades.
On its face not good in my Irish Catholic, Very Republican (though very Democratic) neighborhood on the south side of Chicago. And I noted in the Session's tune section advice from a poster to 'be careful where you play it" or some such. And having closed several pubs in the southwest of Ireland, I am aware of the intensity of those with Republican sentiments. This starts suggesting that there may be limited utility for that tune despite its musical qualities...
Anyway. As the token Polack making his way in an Irish Culture oriented environment, am I being hyper-sensitive about this? Has anyone had adverse reaction playing this tune?
Someone posted the other day about how significant music is. Some songs do seem to stir people's emotions.
Advice on this most appreciated, especially coming into the 'High Holy Days" here in Chicago
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
I doubt it and was not alone there at closing. Though I recall the first time many years ago where I certainly intuited from the seriousness of the moment that one stands quickly and erect regardless of 'frame of mind' (as it were) for that last tune, The Soldiers Song, which was done as the closing number every night. In most cases in the Gaelicht.
A very serious crowd at that point in the evening.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
My grave politico-musical judgment error? At a football / soccer / yawnfest / qualifier / waste-of-grass pitting Trinidad-Tobago and Mexico.
Maybe it was the martoonis talking, but seated in a sea of sombreros, with Mexico leading 3-1, I rose to my feet and lustily boomed out the lively strains of Trinidad’s colorful, ocean mist-scented national anthem. (No steel drums accompanied me.)
"...With boundless faith in our destiny
We solemnly declare.
Side by side we stand
Islands of the blue Caribbean Sea..."
It was like the scene from "Casablanca" where the teary-eyed French chanteuse defiantly sang the "Marseillaise" to the German officers at Rick's Place, except that French chick didn't get doused by a tsunami of Coronas. Plus, unlike her, I shed no tears. Until later.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
The Soldier's Song is not just a tune, it's the national anthem of the Republic of Ireland. In other words, it has the same status in Ireland as the Star Spangled Banner has in the US or God Save the Queen has in the UK. When it's played, the proper protocol is to stand at attention. And just as at American sporting events it's become a tradition to play the anthem before the game, in many Irish pubs it is a tradition to play the anthem at the end of the evening. That's why people were standing erect and serious when it was played on your visits to those Irish pubs, which IIRC you specified were all in the Republic, not the North, right?
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
The pubs were all in the Republic. But the intensity of the patrons is something amazing which was the point of the post.
In the US at ball games and such many stand kibbitz, sip beer etc. during the Star Spangled Banner (notwithstanding there are many who do participate with the appropriate decorum).
But for that last song, the intensity was inspiring for visitors like me.
BTW, whatever you do, don't - you or anyone else - post this tune in the Tunes Section! In my innocence I did just that about 6 years ago, about this time of the year, thinking it might be useful for people to learn to play for St Patrick's Day, but the ensuing furore nearly brought down TheSession, and Jeremy had to withdraw the tune - that tune of all things! - to restore peace.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
When I used to play sessions in East Durham, NY, USA each Sunday afternoon the Soldier's Song ended each one along with America the Beautiful; and everyone stood up for them (except the musicians). A lot of immigrants from County Kerry were involved in the sessions.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
They used to play GSTQ at the end of cinema performances but had to stop as too many people were being trampled in the rush to get out before it started!
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Catholicism, or Irish Republicism does not have the monolopy on Irish tradition and culture. Songs and tunes associated with Orangism eg The Orange maid of Sligo, The Bold Orange Heros of Comber or The Rollicking Boys of Tanderagee have as much a place in ITM as any other song or tune. In fact kick the pope bands and kick the queen bands play mostly the same tunes anyway. The reel reached Irish shore from different waves of military occupation from Scotland and England (protestant I presume), Orange marches are now accepted repetoire of Belfast trad flute players from nationalist backgrounds these days who are educated enough to see the intrinsic value these tunes have had on Irish traditional music over the years. Leave the 1950's rural, Catholic, dancing at the cross-raods values to Comhaltas please!
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Dzien Dobry
I am a fellow Polack who started playing Irish music as an adult. I was attracted to it from a musical persepctive and not a cultural one. I have learned that certain tunes and songs are politically charged and they can elicit bad feelings in certain people. I try to learn what they are and not play them. It's not worth it. My mantra is: One love, One heart, let's get together and feel alright.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Just as there are not all that many commercial recordings of the Star-Spangled Banner, I doubt that there are a lot of studio recordings of the Irish anthem either. But Frankie Gavin and Joe Derrane included it on their album "Ireland's Harvest : A Tribute To The Golden Years Of Music In Irish America" ( http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/318 ) using its name in the Irish language, which is Amhran na bhFiann. It's an instrumental version and, befitting the title, quite martial.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Dzia Dzia.....Now that Herself is a grandmother I tried to assume the title and position as Buscia. Until she was 82 my very Polish mother refused that title.
But with the grandson....Herself graciously allowed my mother (now 84) to assume that title since my mother had decided it was time. Better late than never I suppose.
I started out with just enjoying the trad music, but in my area, the old politics quickly rise to the surface. Actually lots of South and West Irish in our area, so Herself whose family is Northwest Ireland has always been a bit out of place. Her family is also the smallest of the original clans so there is occasionally a bit of that sort of politics.
iwerzon- I am totally in agreement that it is part of the tradtion and that people should exercise a certain amount of musical ecumenism. I was just wondering if anyone had run into circumstances that perhaps the listeners were less than willing to offer an ecumenical spirit on that song.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
I always found it an insult to the Irish National Anthem to play it after a music session in a pub...I've seen people trying to stand up knocking over beers left right and centre. Tourists who are not too sure what to do or do not know the tune, being picked on by some Bousey who takes it on himself to give them a lesson in Irish Nationalism. If the gathering was organised by an Irish Society then there is a place for it, other than that I can't see the need.
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
In the case of our closed sessions in East Durham, everyone who attended was either a part of or invited by a certain Irish ceili society. They usually took place in the back room of the Shamrock (only every so often they would go to the Ferncliff) and were attended by Irish soda bread and tea. Those who wanted more had to walk to the other room in between dances...Nothing insulting to the anthem(s) about that. Cheers~
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
All told, there are many great tunes that cannot be played or heard because of the words associated with them. It's a real shame. Context does matter. One cannot know everything, but it helps.
vlnplyr
Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Like many others, I am trying to expand my repertoire, and my teacher is very helpful with providing creative new music to learn-though at one session someone said one tune I offered was a bit obscure.
I am learning a march (not as an air) The Boyne Water aka Cry of Munster, aka Rosc Catha Na Mumhan. Nice tune, Great beat. Fun to play. Having married into a family of Northwest Catholic descent though, it was quickly brought to my attention that as a march, it celebrated King Williams Victory and is prominent traditionally in Orange Day parades.
On its face not good in my Irish Catholic, Very Republican (though very Democratic) neighborhood on the south side of Chicago. And I noted in the Session's tune section advice from a poster to 'be careful where you play it" or some such. And having closed several pubs in the southwest of Ireland, I am aware of the intensity of those with Republican sentiments. This starts suggesting that there may be limited utility for that tune despite its musical qualities...
Anyway. As the token Polack making his way in an Irish Culture oriented environment, am I being hyper-sensitive about this? Has anyone had adverse reaction playing this tune?
Someone posted the other day about how significant music is. Some songs do seem to stir people's emotions.
Advice on this most appreciated, especially coming into the 'High Holy Days" here in Chicago
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
So *you're* the one whose been closing all those pubs in SW Ireland!...
The boys 'll be after you whatever you play, zippy.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
I doubt it and was not alone there at closing. Though I recall the first time many years ago where I certainly intuited from the seriousness of the moment that one stands quickly and erect regardless of 'frame of mind' (as it were) for that last tune, The Soldiers Song, which was done as the closing number every night. In most cases in the Gaelicht.
A very serious crowd at that point in the evening.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
My grave politico-musical judgment error? At a football / soccer / yawnfest / qualifier / waste-of-grass pitting Trinidad-Tobago and Mexico.
Maybe it was the martoonis talking, but seated in a sea of sombreros, with Mexico leading 3-1, I rose to my feet and lustily boomed out the lively strains of Trinidad’s colorful, ocean mist-scented national anthem. (No steel drums accompanied me.)
"...With boundless faith in our destiny
We solemnly declare.
Side by side we stand
Islands of the blue Caribbean Sea..."
It was like the scene from "Casablanca" where the teary-eyed French chanteuse defiantly sang the "Marseillaise" to the German officers at Rick's Place, except that French chick didn't get doused by a tsunami of Coronas. Plus, unlike her, I shed no tears. Until later.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln who asserted that he thought that "Dixie" ("I wish I was in Dixie") was one of the best tunes he'd ever heard?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Arthur Nordstrom
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
oil
did she leave with some one else causing the tear later?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
The Soldier's Song is not just a tune, it's the national anthem of the Republic of Ireland. In other words, it has the same status in Ireland as the Star Spangled Banner has in the US or God Save the Queen has in the UK. When it's played, the proper protocol is to stand at attention. And just as at American sporting events it's become a tradition to play the anthem before the game, in many Irish pubs it is a tradition to play the anthem at the end of the evening. That's why people were standing erect and serious when it was played on your visits to those Irish pubs, which IIRC you specified were all in the Republic, not the North, right?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by johnkerr
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Johnkerr, I'd like to hear the Soldiers SOng, do you have a link or know where I can hear it?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by wichitafiddler
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
zippy-- My tears came after realizing how much time I'd wasted watching other people doing athletic stuff.
The Roman rabble were suckers for the Circus Maximus. We're suckers for football—either type.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
The pubs were all in the Republic. But the intensity of the patrons is something amazing which was the point of the post.
In the US at ball games and such many stand kibbitz, sip beer etc. during the Star Spangled Banner (notwithstanding there are many who do participate with the appropriate decorum).
But for that last song, the intensity was inspiring for visitors like me.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
I can't think if I've ever seen anyone stand for God Save the Queen in Scotland, unless they were pogoing to the Sex Pistols
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Bren
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Wichitafiddler, a quick search found the Irish National Anthem (The Soldier's Song) being sung by the Wolfe Tones on http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FmHY3ZL8Tfw
BTW, whatever you do, don't - you or anyone else - post this tune in the Tunes Section! In my innocence I did just that about 6 years ago, about this time of the year, thinking it might be useful for people to learn to play for St Patrick's Day, but the ensuing furore nearly brought down TheSession, and Jeremy had to withdraw the tune - that tune of all things! - to restore peace.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
When I used to play sessions in East Durham, NY, USA each Sunday afternoon the Soldier's Song ended each one along with America the Beautiful; and everyone stood up for them (except the musicians). A lot of immigrants from County Kerry were involved in the sessions.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by vonnieestes
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
They used to play GSTQ at the end of cinema performances but had to stop as too many people were being trampled in the rush to get out before it started!
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Paul_draper
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Catholicism, or Irish Republicism does not have the monolopy on Irish tradition and culture. Songs and tunes associated with Orangism eg The Orange maid of Sligo, The Bold Orange Heros of Comber or The Rollicking Boys of Tanderagee have as much a place in ITM as any other song or tune. In fact kick the pope bands and kick the queen bands play mostly the same tunes anyway. The reel reached Irish shore from different waves of military occupation from Scotland and England (protestant I presume), Orange marches are now accepted repetoire of Belfast trad flute players from nationalist backgrounds these days who are educated enough to see the intrinsic value these tunes have had on Irish traditional music over the years. Leave the 1950's rural, Catholic, dancing at the cross-raods values to Comhaltas please!
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by iwerzon
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Dzien Dobry
I am a fellow Polack who started playing Irish music as an adult. I was attracted to it from a musical persepctive and not a cultural one. I have learned that certain tunes and songs are politically charged and they can elicit bad feelings in certain people. I try to learn what they are and not play them. It's not worth it. My mantra is: One love, One heart, let's get together and feel alright.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Dzia Dzia
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Just as there are not all that many commercial recordings of the Star-Spangled Banner, I doubt that there are a lot of studio recordings of the Irish anthem either. But Frankie Gavin and Joe Derrane included it on their album "Ireland's Harvest : A Tribute To The Golden Years Of Music In Irish America" ( http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/318 ) using its name in the Irish language, which is Amhran na bhFiann. It's an instrumental version and, befitting the title, quite martial.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by johnkerr
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
Dzia Dzia.....Now that Herself is a grandmother I tried to assume the title and position as Buscia. Until she was 82 my very Polish mother refused that title.
But with the grandson....Herself graciously allowed my mother (now 84) to assume that title since my mother had decided it was time. Better late than never I suppose.
I started out with just enjoying the trad music, but in my area, the old politics quickly rise to the surface. Actually lots of South and West Irish in our area, so Herself whose family is Northwest Ireland has always been a bit out of place. Her family is also the smallest of the original clans so there is occasionally a bit of that sort of politics.
iwerzon- I am totally in agreement that it is part of the tradtion and that people should exercise a certain amount of musical ecumenism. I was just wondering if anyone had run into circumstances that perhaps the listeners were less than willing to offer an ecumenical spirit on that song.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
I always found it an insult to the Irish National Anthem to play it after a music session in a pub...I've seen people trying to stand up knocking over beers left right and centre. Tourists who are not too sure what to do or do not know the tune, being picked on by some Bousey who takes it on himself to give them a lesson in Irish Nationalism. If the gathering was organised by an Irish Society then there is a place for it, other than that I can't see the need.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
the anthem should only be played if Mary McAleese walks into the bar.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by iwerzon
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
In the case of our closed sessions in East Durham, everyone who attended was either a part of or invited by a certain Irish ceili society. They usually took place in the back room of the Shamrock (only every so often they would go to the Ferncliff) and were attended by Irish soda bread and tea. Those who wanted more had to walk to the other room in between dances...Nothing insulting to the anthem(s) about that. Cheers~
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by vonnieestes
Re: Cultural/Political Correctness Question Related to a Particular Tune
All told, there are many great tunes that cannot be played or heard because of the words associated with them. It's a real shame. Context does matter. One cannot know everything, but it helps.
vlnplyr
# Posted on February 12th 2009 by vlnplyr