At the beginning of summer time I posted a question about loud low whistles. I had various replies one of which was 'get a flute'. I did! I got a Tony Dixon one piece keyless plastic flute and it is fine.It plays in tune and already I can play many tunes on it. Being able to transfer whistle fingering and phrasing etc definitely helps. I have spent many years playing various types of music and play low whistles and recorder in a folk group at gigs/festivals. Before that I studied music at University with recorder as my main instrument (don't laugh - it can be done). It has been great to pick up the flute (I still have a way to go) and add another instrument to my collection. The 'get a flute' comment and others definitely helped. Maybe next year I'll try some small pipes or something. Keep the comments coming...
Yohan
You have to be a bit careful about mentioning recorders here; some contributors have a somewhat irrational attitude toward to it, and believe that it cannot be played in legato trad style.
Well, I am a session nazi who only likes to hear traditional instruments in a session, but I really don't know what a recorder sounds like in Irish Music. I've never really heard anyone play a recorder at a session in Vermont, Boston, or Ireland....I have racks and racks full of Irish Traditional CD's and can't recall if there are any recorders on any of them. I've got a bunch load of CD's with all kinds of whistles...but no recorders....hmmmm.......well....maybe there's a reason for this.................................
Pied Piper,can you recommend some CD's that might have some decent recorder playing...that is traditional Irish?? Enlighten us, please ; )
There's a CD I've got called The Gathering, which is recorded at a festival in Cork, and which features celtic-type musicians from all over. Along with various Irish, Breton, and Canadian luminaries, it has some stunnning recorder playing by Carlos Nunez, from Galicia, but it sounds - well - Galician, not very Irish I'm afraid. I'm sure we had this discussion before, and in the end I'm certain everyone came to agree with me that nice though a recorder might sound, it wasn't really the thing for Irish music... (ducks quickly at this point)
Well surely not not as worldly as aul' PP, after all he knows the foremost recorder player in all of England. Anyone who disagrees is simply talking out of their arse.
Re: the session works! and re/ recorders as Irtrad instruments
I've never heard recorder played in Irish music when I didn't think in response "that person would play this music better on the tin whistle or simple system flute."
Actually, Joyce, I'm in a funny position. I'd been on wooden flute for the best part of a decade, but have recently reverted to Boehm metal flute, which I'd had for yet another, previous, decade. (I play with other instuments which are loud, ie 1-3 banjos.)
Consequently I have no problem with Boehm flutes in sessions, but I am yet to be convinced of the validity of recorders in Irish music sessions, I don't know what it is, they just sound rank and out of place.
Maybe I haven't heard the recorder being done justice. What I've heard is people who haven't a clue, who tongue The Kesh and Morrison's, every note. That's just jigs ---- reels? let's not even go there.
I think I'm not as session naziish (?) as some, but I still think recorder would sound a bit weird when in a trad session. Pied Piper - I too would like a copy of the CD that Joyce wants to hear - cheers.
I agree with a lot of the comments above - my original post was about how the session helped me try something different - i.e. the flute. (yes I know it is plastic and cheap but in time I can get a new one). I wasn't planning a debate on recorders in sessions. I play whistles, low whistles and some guitar at sessions - I do bring my recorders, I don't play every tune. I would strongly agree that recorder isn't the best for Irish trad but it can be very effective when used appropriately. The problem with recorder is that many people are forced to play it at school and it sounds terrible. Also I much prefer the treble and tenor which are lower pitched and fit in better. Another problem is that many folk music shops e.g hobgoblin or the music room have much bigger whistle sections than recorders. Ok so whistle may be more popular but there are some very good recorders out there that many people won't come across unless they go to a specialist recorder retailer. The recorder has the potential to sound terrible when played badly. I am working on my flute with a view to playing at sessions but at the end of the day I play at sessions for enjoyment. Providing that nobody objects (and when they hear me play they don't tend to) then I can play some sets on recorders without any problems - usually with comments like 'I never knew a recorder could sound like that'. The whole idea of 'being traditional' is another argument entirely - low whistles, boehm system flutes, bouzoukis, bodrahns, plastic/polymer flutes, even shakey eggs are not traditional but if they enhance the music and allow people to continue the tradition, while still respecting the history of the music, then surely that is a good thing?
I like recorders in baroque & early music, it's purity of tone with few overtones really works for that music. However, as everybody except for 1 person mentioned, it just doesn't give the right timbre/volume that meshes with Irish music in sessions.
I guess you already know that, that's why you have your flute.
Happy tooting
Yohan, let me try and explain why I think recorders are not ideal instruments for Irish music. I may be wrong, and it may be that the sound of recorders is assimilated into the tradition in time, but here's why I think it won't, and they will continue to be relegated as 'novelty instruments' (nothing fatally wrong with that of course)...
The 'new' tradititional instruments you mention, low whistles, bazouki's etc are instruments which produce a lot of overtunes and incidental 'droning' sounds. If the sound of the treble recorder is pure and pretty, they are 'impure'. The recorder sounds nice for a tune or two, but if you listen to one all night, it doesn't really sit that comfortably with the other instruments. It's got nothing to do with how well it's played, but with the instrument itself. Even in the context of baroque music, it can be wearing. I have a record of Vivaldi recorder concertos, which, when I start listening to it, sounds quite beautiful, and the clarity of the recorder is almost startling. If, however, I listen to more than one of these concertos at a sitting, the sound of the recorder starts to get too much, there is too much concordance and not enough discordance in the sound. And the sound is too lacking in dynamic. I guess this is why more concertos were written for fiddle than for recorder. 'Folk' music, of all descriptions, has a slightly 'dirty' sound to it. African musicians attach chains to their 'thumb pianos' and put stones in their Calabashes, Hardanger fiddles and many other stringed instruments have strings which resonate as drones, pipes have their drones, blue pianists would put tacks in the hammers of their pianos, flutes have people like me playing them who create more hissing and squeaking than actual music(!) - I could go on and on. I think this is because somewhere in the 'sound' of 'real' music everywhere is a wish to echo the most expressive instrument of all - the human voice. Maybe the recorder echos the wrong sort of voice, more Emma Kirkby than Dolores Keane!
Pied Piper - I really would like to hear a traditional Irish CD with some recorder playing so I can broaden my horizons. I have nothing against recorders. I don't know much about them at all....I'm a little intrigued now since they do stir up so much chatter on this website : )
Instead of recommending anything, you just gave us a snide little reply. Please recommend something even if it's just one CD....and traditional Irish please, no funky Celtic stuff ; )
Me too.
As far as I know the bloke that plays Recorder at Irish sessions in Manchester has never recorded any stuff, but he has been playing for at least 25 years in the area.
My initial post was to illustrate what would happen if he showed any signs of disagreeing with the majority, and
the session works!
the session works!
At the beginning of summer time I posted a question about loud low whistles. I had various replies one of which was 'get a flute'. I did! I got a Tony Dixon one piece keyless plastic flute and it is fine.It plays in tune and already I can play many tunes on it. Being able to transfer whistle fingering and phrasing etc definitely helps. I have spent many years playing various types of music and play low whistles and recorder in a folk group at gigs/festivals. Before that I studied music at University with recorder as my main instrument (don't laugh - it can be done). It has been great to pick up the flute (I still have a way to go) and add another instrument to my collection. The 'get a flute' comment and others definitely helped. Maybe next year I'll try some small pipes or something. Keep the comments coming...
Yohan
# Posted on August 19th 2003 by Yohan
Re: the session works!
Get a decent flute first
# Posted on August 19th 2003 by ...
Re: the session works!
That was John Kerr who said that, glad you're enjoying it.
I do agree with Mic
# Posted on August 19th 2003 by B Rad
Re: the session works!
Get a decent flute first - yes I know - give me a chance...
# Posted on August 19th 2003 by Yohan
Re: the session works!
You have to be a bit careful about mentioning recorders here; some contributors have a somewhat irrational attitude toward to it, and believe that it cannot be played in legato trad style.
Good luck
PP
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: the session works!
Well, I am a session nazi who only likes to hear traditional instruments in a session, but I really don't know what a recorder sounds like in Irish Music. I've never really heard anyone play a recorder at a session in Vermont, Boston, or Ireland....I have racks and racks full of Irish Traditional CD's and can't recall if there are any recorders on any of them. I've got a bunch load of CD's with all kinds of whistles...but no recorders....hmmmm.......well....maybe there's a reason for this.................................
Pied Piper,can you recommend some CD's that might have some decent recorder playing...that is traditional Irish?? Enlighten us, please ; )
sorry if this is a little off the topic..
Joyce
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by JMH
Re: the session works!
There's a CD I've got called The Gathering, which is recorded at a festival in Cork, and which features celtic-type musicians from all over. Along with various Irish, Breton, and Canadian luminaries, it has some stunnning recorder playing by Carlos Nunez, from Galicia, but it sounds - well - Galician, not very Irish I'm afraid. I'm sure we had this discussion before, and in the end I'm certain everyone came to agree with me that nice though a recorder might sound, it wasn't really the thing for Irish music... (ducks quickly at this point)
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by Ottery
Re: the session works!
Well surely not not as worldly as aul' PP, after all he knows the foremost recorder player in all of England. Anyone who disagrees is simply talking out of their arse.
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by B Rad
Re: the session works! and re/ recorders as Irtrad instruments
I've never heard recorder played in Irish music when I didn't think in response "that person would play this music better on the tin whistle or simple system flute."
$0.02
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by coyotebanjo
Re: the session works!
Actually, Joyce, I'm in a funny position. I'd been on wooden flute for the best part of a decade, but have recently reverted to Boehm metal flute, which I'd had for yet another, previous, decade. (I play with other instuments which are loud, ie 1-3 banjos.)
Consequently I have no problem with Boehm flutes in sessions, but I am yet to be convinced of the validity of recorders in Irish music sessions, I don't know what it is, they just sound rank and out of place.
Maybe I haven't heard the recorder being done justice. What I've heard is people who haven't a clue, who tongue The Kesh and Morrison's, every note. That's just jigs ---- reels? let's not even go there.
Where's auld sorefingers these days?
Danny.
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: the session works!
I think I'm not as session naziish (?) as some, but I still think recorder would sound a bit weird when in a trad session. Pied Piper - I too would like a copy of the CD that Joyce wants to hear - cheers.
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by bb
Re: the session works!
You see what I mean Yohan; Pearls before swine.
Keep playing
All the best
PP
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: the session works!
I agree with a lot of the comments above - my original post was about how the session helped me try something different - i.e. the flute. (yes I know it is plastic and cheap but in time I can get a new one). I wasn't planning a debate on recorders in sessions. I play whistles, low whistles and some guitar at sessions - I do bring my recorders, I don't play every tune. I would strongly agree that recorder isn't the best for Irish trad but it can be very effective when used appropriately. The problem with recorder is that many people are forced to play it at school and it sounds terrible. Also I much prefer the treble and tenor which are lower pitched and fit in better. Another problem is that many folk music shops e.g hobgoblin or the music room have much bigger whistle sections than recorders. Ok so whistle may be more popular but there are some very good recorders out there that many people won't come across unless they go to a specialist recorder retailer. The recorder has the potential to sound terrible when played badly. I am working on my flute with a view to playing at sessions but at the end of the day I play at sessions for enjoyment. Providing that nobody objects (and when they hear me play they don't tend to) then I can play some sets on recorders without any problems - usually with comments like 'I never knew a recorder could sound like that'. The whole idea of 'being traditional' is another argument entirely - low whistles, boehm system flutes, bouzoukis, bodrahns, plastic/polymer flutes, even shakey eggs are not traditional but if they enhance the music and allow people to continue the tradition, while still respecting the history of the music, then surely that is a good thing?
# Posted on August 20th 2003 by Yohan
Re: the session works!
I like recorders in baroque & early music, it's purity of tone with few overtones really works for that music. However, as everybody except for 1 person mentioned, it just doesn't give the right timbre/volume that meshes with Irish music in sessions.
I guess you already know that, that's why you have your flute.
Happy tooting
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by B Rad
Re: the session works!
Yohan, let me try and explain why I think recorders are not ideal instruments for Irish music. I may be wrong, and it may be that the sound of recorders is assimilated into the tradition in time, but here's why I think it won't, and they will continue to be relegated as 'novelty instruments' (nothing fatally wrong with that of course)...
The 'new' tradititional instruments you mention, low whistles, bazouki's etc are instruments which produce a lot of overtunes and incidental 'droning' sounds. If the sound of the treble recorder is pure and pretty, they are 'impure'. The recorder sounds nice for a tune or two, but if you listen to one all night, it doesn't really sit that comfortably with the other instruments. It's got nothing to do with how well it's played, but with the instrument itself. Even in the context of baroque music, it can be wearing. I have a record of Vivaldi recorder concertos, which, when I start listening to it, sounds quite beautiful, and the clarity of the recorder is almost startling. If, however, I listen to more than one of these concertos at a sitting, the sound of the recorder starts to get too much, there is too much concordance and not enough discordance in the sound. And the sound is too lacking in dynamic. I guess this is why more concertos were written for fiddle than for recorder. 'Folk' music, of all descriptions, has a slightly 'dirty' sound to it. African musicians attach chains to their 'thumb pianos' and put stones in their Calabashes, Hardanger fiddles and many other stringed instruments have strings which resonate as drones, pipes have their drones, blue pianists would put tacks in the hammers of their pianos, flutes have people like me playing them who create more hissing and squeaking than actual music(!) - I could go on and on. I think this is because somewhere in the 'sound' of 'real' music everywhere is a wish to echo the most expressive instrument of all - the human voice. Maybe the recorder echos the wrong sort of voice, more Emma Kirkby than Dolores Keane!
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by Ottery
Re: the session works!
yep - I agree with you Ottery - luckily my whistle/low whistle playing is not too shabby. Not sure about 'novelty' but I know what you mean...
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by Yohan
Re: the session works!
Pied Piper - I really would like to hear a traditional Irish CD with some recorder playing so I can broaden my horizons. I have nothing against recorders. I don't know much about them at all....I'm a little intrigued now since they do stir up so much chatter on this website : )
Instead of recommending anything, you just gave us a snide little reply. Please recommend something even if it's just one CD....and traditional Irish please, no funky Celtic stuff ; )
Joyce
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by JMH
Re: the session works!
Me too.
As far as I know the bloke that plays Recorder at Irish sessions in Manchester has never recorded any stuff, but he has been playing for at least 25 years in the area.
My initial post was to illustrate what would happen if he showed any signs of disagreeing with the majority, and
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: the session works!
How clever you are!
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by Ottery
Re: the session works!
I agree, what a genius!
PP's experiment in social control a resounding success. I wish I could be like you.
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: the session works!
Good one Danny!
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by JMH
Re: the session works!
therapysession.org....cheaper than your local psyche consult. And here the *therapist* has multiple personalities. Pardon me, my pint's waiting....
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: the session works!
Gosh, I just want to hear what a recorder sounds like playing some jigs or reels.....oh well...........
I certainly wouldn't want to see the therapy bills for some of the members on this site.....geeeeeeeeez.....ok back to work...
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by JMH
Rec*rder
Joyce, the only name that comes to mind is Carlos Nunez, but he doesn't play Irish music (Galician). Good player, though.
http://www.rootsworld.com/interview/nunez.html
http://www.angelfire.com/hi/celticworld/nunez.html
http://www.iol.ie/~ipba/Nunez.html
g
# Posted on August 21st 2003 by glauber