Do you think that ITM might, as most melody instruments are upper register, benefit from some backup in the lower registers - ie: bass... or, more colloquially put, “a little more bottom”?
I am sooo disappointed. I thought this was going to be a discussion of our baser instincts or maybe baseball or bass fishing.
Seriously, though, speaking as someone who has been playing bass (both acoustic and electric) for many, many years in various styles and types of music, I would suggest that some bass might help enhance ITM if played unobtrusively and judiciously in the background as accompanying instruments are supposed to be played.
Also, if you are at a session and the other musicians don't want anyone playing bass, you should respect their wishes and play another instrument instead.
For example, when the local sessions first started in 1995, I told the other musicians what I played (piano and bass) and asked if I might join them. They said yes I was welcome to join them and play music with them if I would bring my electronic keyboard and play it as a piano.
We've had this one before, but I don't know what the title of the thread was.
Bass guitar can go fine with trad if it's played sensitively. I don't think I've ever heard a double-bass playing with ITM, which in itself is no reason for me to assume it doesn't or shouldn't happen.
Here's a lifetime double bass and bass guitar player voting no, respectfully, to a bass in sessions. I love to hear just the melody, spaced octaves apart, with the bodhans trumming and the boxes wheezing away. But that's just me...
The more you add to a peanut, the less it's a peanut. (I always thought GW Carver said that, but I can't find evidence anywhere of it.) That's not to say you shouldn't add anything to peanuts, (GW Carver certainly did), it's just less likely you can honestly call it peanuts.
Some very good friends of mine have a band based in Munich called the "Burning Biscuit Band" who have a fantastic base player who adds no end of colour and character to their music. Although it's not strictly in the traditional sense the base played by Jim is certainly worth listening too. A great band if your in Munich look them up, they often play in Killians, or the Shamrock among other places. They will certainly be playing at the "Green Farm Festival" in June http://chico-inklab.moonfruit.com/#/gfenglishhome/4524815663 and their website is http://burningbiscuit.com/index.html
I like the bass played sensitively in a session. Its like a quiet piano vamp from my experience of hearing it. Just picking out bass notes which follow the main melody of the tune. Of course, I'm sure there is a lot more to bass playing that that!
I do understand the contrasting opinion of other members though. I am also a fan of listening to just the music and don't like obtrusive guitar playing, even if it is technically smart.
I play mainly bass in my barn-dance band, and it adds immensely to the sound for an audience who need a good idea of the basic rhythm they are supposed to be dancing to, especially as we have no other bottom end, no drummer.
But a session is different, and I think this might even stray over into the "Is it a session or a performance ?" issue.
But the quick answer to your question is "no".
Note the original question made no mention of sessions - where the thread seems to have drifted to. I have no problem with a well played double bass or bass guitar (acoustic) joining in a session.
In terms of bands there are lots of them with bass players, particularly the double bass - Lunasa for one!
And bands in Scotland often have bass players such as Capercaillie.
The Glasgow-based bass player Duncan Lyall is a great example of someone using bass guitar and double bass well in traditional music and he must be playing with almost everybody just now.
What about non-bass guitar items such as djembes and the like? We have a top-notch percussionist who provides some fascinating bass-filled rhythms with a djembe.
Then again, there is something to be said for no bass at all. I also enjoy fiddling along in the high end with flutes and whistles.
Lunasa is a good example. beoga uses bass on their recordings. Solas also added bass in more recent recordings. Maybe we could ask: Does bass detract from the ITM "sound"?
Well, (nearly) everything has its place, but for me, adding bass to this music shifts it too much into the mainstream wall-of-sound aesthetic, where everything sounds 40% the same. But, if you must add bass to My ITM, please make it acoustic upright bass, not electric bass guitar.
Early Clannad had some tasteful bass playing, but of course their whole sound was a wee bit off the purist path.
I’m certainly not against bass instruments in general. One of my favorite musical treats is the all too rare opportunity to jam with a really good double bass player.
I play bass, too, and I was doing some experiments with the old tape recorder using my fretless electric bass over the holidays
I can see where in a smaller group of players it could be good, but the more instruments you add, the more it seems to muddy things up
Then for me there's the question of how to manage the bass itself. On a fretless bass I can play the melody to most of the tunes I know, or I can play more like the left hand of a piano player.
I thought the duo of bass and low whistle had some real potential. I played the melody with both instruments and it sounded pretty cool. If I could only play whistle worth a tinker's damn it would probably work pretty well.
But at a larger session, say with half a dozen or more players, I think I would be getting in the way with my bass more than I would be adding anything. Especially if there was a bodhran player already. I found that the more tracks I layered and the more instruments I used, the more the bass got in the way.
Also with my fretless electric bass I'd have the whole issue of electric instruments and amplification to deal with
A double bass would be a little better, but you would still need an amp at a crowded session. You can raise incredible blisters playing unamplified in a noisy setting like that
Good insight from all... my perspective is that music which is informed by ITM and STM, such as current compositions, do benefit from some bottom end, as do some versions by groups like Capercaillie and Lunasa. I think that music, like cooking, benefits from subtle influences, and if ingredients are carefully measured, the recipe is likely to work.
In the right hands, the bass can add a lot to the music. We had a bass player who started attending our session a few years ago, but the publican discouraged him, and later gave the reason as "For God's sake, he took up the room of two paying customers....."
I think that an electric bass can work very well with a band that is playing for barn dances or ceilidhs - especially if the line-up doesn't include a suitable free-reed instrument to provide the bass.
1) Unlike at a session, it's usual for the other instruments to be amplified, so an electric bass seems less "out of place".
2) The auditorium is much larger that would be for a pub session. Without any base, the overall sound can seem quite "thin".
3) Many of the dancers at these events are young, and know nothing about traditional music. They are probably more used to discos and such, where a heavy base is the norm. So having an electric base helps to get these younger people "on side". Its very important to attract young people into the tradition - if we don't, the tradition might eventually die out.
To use an electric base at a session (where the above factors don't really apply) would be an entirely different matter. I've never seen one so used, but I don't think I would approve. It would be certain to attract quite a lot of opposition, which is probably as good a reason as any not to try it!
Certainly !!! bring on the "lower end". I frequently play a bass/alto
type counterpoint" on the low end of the fiddle just to supply such a sound. Yeah, bring it on !!
Guernsey Pete, what type of bass, acoustic or electric, do you play with the barn dance band?
Bob himself, just how "tasteful" was the bass playing with Clannad? Was it delicious and good enough to eat?
Nate Ryan, after playing bass (both acoustic and electric), for many years, I know more that I want to about the callouses and the blisters which you can get from playing this instrument.
Mix, the Arkansas Country Dance Society used to have an acoustic bassist who played for their dances. He used a three-quarter size Englehardt acoustic bass fiddle (or string bass or double bass if you prefer that term) which had an audio pickup installed on the instrument so his bass could be plugged into their sound system.
The Dance Society has to have a sound system because they use a rather large fellowship hall at a local Presbyterian church for most of their weekly dances.
At the local sessions, I usually bring only my electronic keyboard and leave my bass at home because I really don't think there is any need for a bass. If there is any need for a bass line, I can easily play it on the keyboard with my left hand. Yes, I have been asked to bring both instruments to the sessions.
At one of the local sessions some years ago, there were two bass fiddles. One of them stood on my left side and the other stood on my right side. When both of them were playing their bass fiddles at the same time, I felt as if I was about to be vibrated into a lower dimension.
I mostly play my bass fiddle at acoustic music sessions such as folk music or bluegrass instead of the Irish Sessions.
base instincts
base instincts
Do you think that ITM might, as most melody instruments are upper register, benefit from some backup in the lower registers - ie: bass... or, more colloquially put, “a little more bottom”?
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by drone
Re: base instincts
Yes!
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: base instincts
I am sooo disappointed. I thought this was going to be a discussion of our baser instincts or maybe baseball or bass fishing.
Seriously, though, speaking as someone who has been playing bass (both acoustic and electric) for many, many years in various styles and types of music, I would suggest that some bass might help enhance ITM if played unobtrusively and judiciously in the background as accompanying instruments are supposed to be played.
Also, if you are at a session and the other musicians don't want anyone playing bass, you should respect their wishes and play another instrument instead.
For example, when the local sessions first started in 1995, I told the other musicians what I played (piano and bass) and asked if I might join them. They said yes I was welcome to join them and play music with them if I would bring my electronic keyboard and play it as a piano.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: base instincts
We've had this one before, but I don't know what the title of the thread was.
Bass guitar can go fine with trad if it's played sensitively. I don't think I've ever heard a double-bass playing with ITM, which in itself is no reason for me to assume it doesn't or shouldn't happen.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by nicholas
Re: base instincts
Here's a lifetime double bass and bass guitar player voting no, respectfully, to a bass in sessions. I love to hear just the melody, spaced octaves apart, with the bodhans trumming and the boxes wheezing away. But that's just me...
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: base instincts
No.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: base instincts
The more you add to a peanut, the less it's a peanut. (I always thought GW Carver said that, but I can't find evidence anywhere of it.) That's not to say you shouldn't add anything to peanuts, (GW Carver certainly did), it's just less likely you can honestly call it peanuts.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: base instincts
Some very good friends of mine have a band based in Munich called the "Burning Biscuit Band" who have a fantastic base player who adds no end of colour and character to their music. Although it's not strictly in the traditional sense the base played by Jim is certainly worth listening too. A great band if your in Munich look them up, they often play in Killians, or the Shamrock among other places. They will certainly be playing at the "Green Farm Festival" in June http://chico-inklab.moonfruit.com/#/gfenglishhome/4524815663 and their website is http://burningbiscuit.com/index.html
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by tctelboy
Re: base instincts
I like the bass played sensitively in a session. Its like a quiet piano vamp from my experience of hearing it. Just picking out bass notes which follow the main melody of the tune. Of course, I'm sure there is a lot more to bass playing that that!
I do understand the contrasting opinion of other members though. I am also a fan of listening to just the music and don't like obtrusive guitar playing, even if it is technically smart.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by 52Paddy
Re: base instincts
I play mainly bass in my barn-dance band, and it adds immensely to the sound for an audience who need a good idea of the basic rhythm they are supposed to be dancing to, especially as we have no other bottom end, no drummer.
But a session is different, and I think this might even stray over into the "Is it a session or a performance ?" issue.
But the quick answer to your question is "no".
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: base instincts
Yes
Note the original question made no mention of sessions - where the thread seems to have drifted to. I have no problem with a well played double bass or bass guitar (acoustic) joining in a session.
In terms of bands there are lots of them with bass players, particularly the double bass - Lunasa for one!
And bands in Scotland often have bass players such as Capercaillie.
The Glasgow-based bass player Duncan Lyall is a great example of someone using bass guitar and double bass well in traditional music and he must be playing with almost everybody just now.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: base instincts
What about non-bass guitar items such as djembes and the like? We have a top-notch percussionist who provides some fascinating bass-filled rhythms with a djembe.
Then again, there is something to be said for no bass at all. I also enjoy fiddling along in the high end with flutes and whistles.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: base instincts
Lunasa is a good example. beoga uses bass on their recordings. Solas also added bass in more recent recordings. Maybe we could ask: Does bass detract from the ITM "sound"?
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by pbassnote
Re: base instincts
Well, (nearly) everything has its place, but for me, adding bass to this music shifts it too much into the mainstream wall-of-sound aesthetic, where everything sounds 40% the same. But, if you must add bass to My ITM, please make it acoustic upright bass, not electric bass guitar.
Early Clannad had some tasteful bass playing, but of course their whole sound was a wee bit off the purist path.
I’m certainly not against bass instruments in general. One of my favorite musical treats is the all too rare opportunity to jam with a really good double bass player.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: base instincts
I play bass, too, and I was doing some experiments with the old tape recorder using my fretless electric bass over the holidays
I can see where in a smaller group of players it could be good, but the more instruments you add, the more it seems to muddy things up
Then for me there's the question of how to manage the bass itself. On a fretless bass I can play the melody to most of the tunes I know, or I can play more like the left hand of a piano player.
I thought the duo of bass and low whistle had some real potential. I played the melody with both instruments and it sounded pretty cool. If I could only play whistle worth a tinker's damn it would probably work pretty well.
But at a larger session, say with half a dozen or more players, I think I would be getting in the way with my bass more than I would be adding anything. Especially if there was a bodhran player already. I found that the more tracks I layered and the more instruments I used, the more the bass got in the way.
Also with my fretless electric bass I'd have the whole issue of electric instruments and amplification to deal with
A double bass would be a little better, but you would still need an amp at a crowded session. You can raise incredible blisters playing unamplified in a noisy setting like that
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: base instincts
Good insight from all... my perspective is that music which is informed by ITM and STM, such as current compositions, do benefit from some bottom end, as do some versions by groups like Capercaillie and Lunasa. I think that music, like cooking, benefits from subtle influences, and if ingredients are carefully measured, the recipe is likely to work.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by drone
Re: base instincts
In the right hands, the bass can add a lot to the music. We had a bass player who started attending our session a few years ago, but the publican discouraged him, and later gave the reason as "For God's sake, he took up the room of two paying customers....."
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: base instincts
I think that an electric bass can work very well with a band that is playing for barn dances or ceilidhs - especially if the line-up doesn't include a suitable free-reed instrument to provide the bass.
1) Unlike at a session, it's usual for the other instruments to be amplified, so an electric bass seems less "out of place".
2) The auditorium is much larger that would be for a pub session. Without any base, the overall sound can seem quite "thin".
3) Many of the dancers at these events are young, and know nothing about traditional music. They are probably more used to discos and such, where a heavy base is the norm. So having an electric base helps to get these younger people "on side". Its very important to attract young people into the tradition - if we don't, the tradition might eventually die out.
To use an electric base at a session (where the above factors don't really apply) would be an entirely different matter. I've never seen one so used, but I don't think I would approve. It would be certain to attract quite a lot of opposition, which is probably as good a reason as any not to try it!
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: base instincts
Certainly !!! bring on the "lower end". I frequently play a bass/alto
type counterpoint" on the low end of the fiddle just to supply such a sound. Yeah, bring it on !!
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by hauke
Re: base instincts
Guernsey Pete, what type of bass, acoustic or electric, do you play with the barn dance band?
Bob himself, just how "tasteful" was the bass playing with Clannad? Was it delicious and good enough to eat?
Nate Ryan, after playing bass (both acoustic and electric), for many years, I know more that I want to about the callouses and the blisters which you can get from playing this instrument.
Mix, the Arkansas Country Dance Society used to have an acoustic bassist who played for their dances. He used a three-quarter size Englehardt acoustic bass fiddle (or string bass or double bass if you prefer that term) which had an audio pickup installed on the instrument so his bass could be plugged into their sound system.
The Dance Society has to have a sound system because they use a rather large fellowship hall at a local Presbyterian church for most of their weekly dances.
At the local sessions, I usually bring only my electronic keyboard and leave my bass at home because I really don't think there is any need for a bass. If there is any need for a bass line, I can easily play it on the keyboard with my left hand. Yes, I have been asked to bring both instruments to the sessions.
At one of the local sessions some years ago, there were two bass fiddles. One of them stood on my left side and the other stood on my right side. When both of them were playing their bass fiddles at the same time, I felt as if I was about to be vibrated into a lower dimension.
I mostly play my bass fiddle at acoustic music sessions such as folk music or bluegrass instead of the Irish Sessions.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: base instincts
Sometimes... It depends...
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by ceolachan
~ on ones base instincts...
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: base instincts
Just how low are your base instincts, Ceolachan? Or is it safe to ask that question?
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by fauxcelt