The Session >> Discussions >> Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
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Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I had a discussion this weekend that leads to this question:
In the Irish music tradition, there are styles of playing (Donnegal, Sligo, Kerry, etc) that are discussed and seem to be relatively clearly identified. Are there now regional styles of playing that can be identified and discussed in the great diaspora of Irish and Scottish music? Certainly Cape Breton playing seems to fit that Bill, and Ottowa Valley style from Canada but can we add to that East Coast/New York, Chicago Style, Midwest (St Louis/Kansas City/Minneapolis/St Paul), Ohio Valley, West Coast California, Washington St., BC/Vancouver, Austrailian, etc.? Are any of these locations developing distinctive variations that characterize the region or are they all still a hodge podge of styles derivative of the old country roots?
What are your thoughts? Is it legitimate to think of styles of Trad music that are not directly rooted in Ireland or Scotland or should we always try to get back to the old country styles and sounds?
Given that "the tradition" seems to be evolving and changing rapidly in both Ireland and Scotland, I find this question very interesting.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I don't speak for Australia, I just live in it. There are some
top players here who sound like a combination of early
Frankie Gavin mixed with Tommy Peoples. There are also a
bunch of Kevin Burke-influenced players. I've also heard people who do heaps of single bowing with little ornamentation like a Doherty/Donegal style. I've also heard a
Burke style combined with Tommy Peoples scrunchy trebles.
The alpha fiddler at my session has a West Clare style with a
touch of East Clare in the rhythm and use of slides. I don't
have a definite style yet myself as far as I know. I'm using a fair
amount of slides recently and I like the Gavin-style trebles
and the Martin Hayes rhythm tricks.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Just a thought... how 'bout the part of the tradition that's evolved from what the Pogues did in the eighties. It's not regional to be sure. But it is certainly a derivitive of ITM and Irish folk. A lot of bands have kept Irish traditional tunes alive and popular by adding them to the end or beginning of their rock-n-roll songs.
For instance O'Keefe's Slide at the end of Flogging Molly's "Black Friday Rule" (which is a great original Irish trad folk tune by the way)
I just thought I'd throw that out there even though the pure droppers will scream for my head.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Is there such a thing as regional style anymore? What with increased mobility in musicians and of course, the explosion in availability of CD recordings, TV and YouTube etc., people are influenced in all sorts of ways.
I suppose that people tend to pick up the style of xyz whom they admire and listen to. This may be a local musician or people you session and this is more likely where there is a strong local scene, so in that sense a 'regional' or 'group' style might be extant? But then you move to another session group or new people join regularly to your group and it may change again? Can this be called a style if it's so easily mutated?
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I'd say that with increased access to recordings, internet, YouTube, touring artists etc, that the era of diverging styles has been replaced by convergence, particularly in Australia
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
There seems to me to be no *overriding* reason why ITM should not develop recognisable local traditions in the New World. Sure, we live in a world where individual musos can pick-and-mix their influences and role models via recordings and travel to an extraordinary extent - but there has been a lot of that right through, from the early years of the c20 on, and traditions have been strongly influenced by idiosyncratic or outside musicians in the past too.
Sessions as such, though, are probably a bit more stable musically than a dozen individual musos each trying to be Kevin Burke one year and Tommy Peoples the next - or that sort of thing. Most sessioners, at any rate, want to play together constructively and to spend most of their time doing that rather than listening to a long series of compartmented floor spots. They adapt, maybe slowly, to each other's styles and tunes (by "adapt", I don't necessarily mean "adopt", though this of course can happen.) This is an interesting process and engages the creativity of the sessioners.
So I think a longstanding session can create its own mini-tradition by continually engaging and re-engaging with the music that's *there*, that people have got with them: it may be
very like many other sessions, it may be quite distinctive because of some musical personality or quirk. Lots of local sessions may beget a local tradition - not necessarily to order, more in the way it's supposed to be possible for a butterfly to flap its wings in one part of the world and start a hurricane in another.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Listen to Andy McGann, then listen to Brian Conway, then listen to an up and coming star, Dylan Foley. There's a definite link between the styles of these players, which can be identified as a distinct New York, Sligo-influenced style. The influence, in these cases, was personal, but something of the regional style was handed down, while changing slightly, and becoming geographically distinct.
Another example would be the influence of Brendan Mulkere in London. Originally from Clare, his teaching has brought a Clare inflection to the playing of many of London's former 'jelly babies', and it's possible to hear his influence in many London sessions. That's not to say that London sessions sound like Clare sessions, they don't, but certain old-school players retain some of Brendan's influence, and the London-Irish sound is quite distinct.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
At a bit of a tangent, but a book like 'The Fiddler's Fakebook', by Denis Brody, brings together tunes "from the various Celtic and North American traditions", in all kinds of styles- CB, Old Time, Irish, Scottish, Shetland etc.
What do people feel about this kind of enterprise?- a celebration of diversity stemming from the source or a muddying of the (pure) waters?
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
P. K. I think the original question goes back (to local styles) & then forward (to adoption & collaboration) as more people "hear" various styles. & come up with their own styles.
It's near impossible to think of Irish as a monolithic style (or Scottish, or Shetland). Same with old time ~ lots of influences & yet some distinct styles (once local) if you only listen to them>
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Fascinating subject- the migration of a local style or development of a 'new' local or regional style elsewhere out of many strands.
I haven't yet got to hear much of American styles such as New England or Texas, but Cape Breton certainly does it for me- surely now a very strong tradition in its own right, as johnbunch says.
Interesting, too, to see people like Liz Doherty 'bringing it all back home'- well, close- to Ireland, anyway!
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
There is also a distinct "American Style" of uilleann piping. Patsy Touhy, Tom Busby, Joe Shannon,etc. A very close-fingered staccatto sound, not much in favour these days. good point by Robert Ryan about the "New York" fiddle style. I would also add Tony De Marco to that list
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
It goes without saying that you play what you hear. The bits that stick in your head are what comes out in your playing. If you live in an area devoid of sessions, you sound like the recordings you listen to. If you play with other people all the time and don't listen to recordings at all, you sound like those around you.
Most of us fall somewhere in between those two extremes. Given that, the areas with very strong music scenes that have a large number of players that play out often will probably develop a style that is distinct to that area. This is because a large portion of the music heard by the people in that area is played by the people in that area, so they influence each others playing. Does that make sense?
So yes, I'd say there are areas that have developed their own style that is still Irish and unique at the same time.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Michael Coleman's name keeps coming up. Did everyone else end up just playing in his shadow? & the sessions at Mona's?
There must be something good about 1 or 2 trad players in New York currently.
If it's mostly posers ~ that's true in any big city.
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Tony DeMarco is a good example of the NY playing style, and his new album has some good liner notes describing the NYC tune scene over the years.
Mad Baloney, a member of this site, came out of that NY scene, and if you e-mail him, he might offer some perspective (he doesn't much enter into the discussions these days, but always has some good comments when he does join the fray).
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
in fact, mad baloney posted the Brian Conway/Tony Demarco album in the recording section. I still have an Old LP of the band The Flying Cloud. Anyone remember them? I wonder if this record has been released on CD?
Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I had a discussion this weekend that leads to this question:
In the Irish music tradition, there are styles of playing (Donnegal, Sligo, Kerry, etc) that are discussed and seem to be relatively clearly identified. Are there now regional styles of playing that can be identified and discussed in the great diaspora of Irish and Scottish music? Certainly Cape Breton playing seems to fit that Bill, and Ottowa Valley style from Canada but can we add to that East Coast/New York, Chicago Style, Midwest (St Louis/Kansas City/Minneapolis/St Paul), Ohio Valley, West Coast California, Washington St., BC/Vancouver, Austrailian, etc.? Are any of these locations developing distinctive variations that characterize the region or are they all still a hodge podge of styles derivative of the old country roots?
What are your thoughts? Is it legitimate to think of styles of Trad music that are not directly rooted in Ireland or Scotland or should we always try to get back to the old country styles and sounds?
Given that "the tradition" seems to be evolving and changing rapidly in both Ireland and Scotland, I find this question very interesting.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by johnbunch
~
Ottawa. carry on.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I don't speak for Australia, I just live in it. There are some
top players here who sound like a combination of early
Frankie Gavin mixed with Tommy Peoples. There are also a
bunch of Kevin Burke-influenced players. I've also heard people who do heaps of single bowing with little ornamentation like a Doherty/Donegal style. I've also heard a
Burke style combined with Tommy Peoples scrunchy trebles.
The alpha fiddler at my session has a West Clare style with a
touch of East Clare in the rhythm and use of slides. I don't
have a definite style yet myself as far as I know. I'm using a fair
amount of slides recently and I like the Gavin-style trebles
and the Martin Hayes rhythm tricks.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Hup
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Just a thought... how 'bout the part of the tradition that's evolved from what the Pogues did in the eighties. It's not regional to be sure. But it is certainly a derivitive of ITM and Irish folk. A lot of bands have kept Irish traditional tunes alive and popular by adding them to the end or beginning of their rock-n-roll songs.
For instance O'Keefe's Slide at the end of Flogging Molly's "Black Friday Rule" (which is a great original Irish trad folk tune by the way)
I just thought I'd throw that out there even though the pure droppers will scream for my head.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Very much influenced by the whole Pogues thing is Springsteen's AMERICAN LAND with which he closed a lot of his shows on the last tour.
Dennis
http://www.myspace.com/dennisregan
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Is there such a thing as regional style anymore? What with increased mobility in musicians and of course, the explosion in availability of CD recordings, TV and YouTube etc., people are influenced in all sorts of ways.
I suppose that people tend to pick up the style of xyz whom they admire and listen to. This may be a local musician or people you session and this is more likely where there is a strong local scene, so in that sense a 'regional' or 'group' style might be extant? But then you move to another session group or new people join regularly to your group and it may change again? Can this be called a style if it's so easily mutated?
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Yes.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Piece
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I'd say that with increased access to recordings, internet, YouTube, touring artists etc, that the era of diverging styles has been replaced by convergence, particularly in Australia
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Bren
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
There seems to me to be no *overriding* reason why ITM should not develop recognisable local traditions in the New World. Sure, we live in a world where individual musos can pick-and-mix their influences and role models via recordings and travel to an extraordinary extent - but there has been a lot of that right through, from the early years of the c20 on, and traditions have been strongly influenced by idiosyncratic or outside musicians in the past too.
Sessions as such, though, are probably a bit more stable musically than a dozen individual musos each trying to be Kevin Burke one year and Tommy Peoples the next - or that sort of thing. Most sessioners, at any rate, want to play together constructively and to spend most of their time doing that rather than listening to a long series of compartmented floor spots. They adapt, maybe slowly, to each other's styles and tunes (by "adapt", I don't necessarily mean "adopt", though this of course can happen.) This is an interesting process and engages the creativity of the sessioners.
So I think a longstanding session can create its own mini-tradition by continually engaging and re-engaging with the music that's *there*, that people have got with them: it may be
very like many other sessions, it may be quite distinctive because of some musical personality or quirk. Lots of local sessions may beget a local tradition - not necessarily to order, more in the way it's supposed to be possible for a butterfly to flap its wings in one part of the world and start a hurricane in another.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Listen to Andy McGann, then listen to Brian Conway, then listen to an up and coming star, Dylan Foley. There's a definite link between the styles of these players, which can be identified as a distinct New York, Sligo-influenced style. The influence, in these cases, was personal, but something of the regional style was handed down, while changing slightly, and becoming geographically distinct.
Another example would be the influence of Brendan Mulkere in London. Originally from Clare, his teaching has brought a Clare inflection to the playing of many of London's former 'jelly babies', and it's possible to hear his influence in many London sessions. That's not to say that London sessions sound like Clare sessions, they don't, but certain old-school players retain some of Brendan's influence, and the London-Irish sound is quite distinct.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Trad Styles now (on Par)?
Dumb question ~
What *style* does Liz Carroll play?
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
At a bit of a tangent, but a book like 'The Fiddler's Fakebook', by Denis Brody, brings together tunes "from the various Celtic and North American traditions", in all kinds of styles- CB, Old Time, Irish, Scottish, Shetland etc.
What do people feel about this kind of enterprise?- a celebration of diversity stemming from the source or a muddying of the (pure) waters?
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Sorry, *David* Brody.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
P. K. I think the original question goes back (to local styles) & then forward (to adoption & collaboration) as more people "hear" various styles. & come up with their own styles.
It's near impossible to think of Irish as a monolithic style (or Scottish, or Shetland). Same with old time ~ lots of influences & yet some distinct styles (once local) if you only listen to them>
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Fascinating subject- the migration of a local style or development of a 'new' local or regional style elsewhere out of many strands.
I haven't yet got to hear much of American styles such as New England or Texas, but Cape Breton certainly does it for me- surely now a very strong tradition in its own right, as johnbunch says.
Interesting, too, to see people like Liz Doherty 'bringing it all back home'- well, close- to Ireland, anyway!
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
There is also a distinct "American Style" of uilleann piping. Patsy Touhy, Tom Busby, Joe Shannon,etc. A very close-fingered staccatto sound, not much in favour these days. good point by Robert Ryan about the "New York" fiddle style. I would also add Tony De Marco to that list
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
It goes without saying that you play what you hear. The bits that stick in your head are what comes out in your playing. If you live in an area devoid of sessions, you sound like the recordings you listen to. If you play with other people all the time and don't listen to recordings at all, you sound like those around you.
Most of us fall somewhere in between those two extremes. Given that, the areas with very strong music scenes that have a large number of players that play out often will probably develop a style that is distinct to that area. This is because a large portion of the music heard by the people in that area is played by the people in that area, so they influence each others playing. Does that make sense?
So yes, I'd say there are areas that have developed their own style that is still Irish and unique at the same time.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by fiddleK
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
No.
Next question.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
I agree with Seosamh Ui Sinan in regard to Australia.
But I think the New York Sligo style is widely recognized now.
# Posted on January 5th 2009 by Hup
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Not on par with the Irish traditions, no.
# Posted on January 6th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
New York Sligo style...pbbbbfffffttt. Isn't it mostly classical violinists pretending to be Irish nowadays?
Gimme real Sligo music any day. ; )
# Posted on January 6th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
"What *style* does Liz Carroll play?"
Her own.
# Posted on January 6th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
"New York Sligo style...pbbbbfffffttt. Isn't it mostly classical violinists pretending to be Irish nowadays?"
...ouch.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by meredithrachael
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Michael Coleman's name keeps coming up. Did everyone else end up just playing in his shadow? & the sessions at Mona's?
There must be something good about 1 or 2 trad players in New York currently.
If it's mostly posers ~ that's true in any big city.
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/450
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
one or two generations of trad players
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/85
# Posted on January 7th 2009 by pipewatcher
NY Trad Styles
Grand! ~ thanks pipewatcher
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
Tony DeMarco is a good example of the NY playing style, and his new album has some good liner notes describing the NYC tune scene over the years.
Mad Baloney, a member of this site, came out of that NY scene, and if you e-mail him, he might offer some perspective (he doesn't much enter into the discussions these days, but always has some good comments when he does join the fray).
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
in fact, mad baloney posted the Brian Conway/Tony Demarco album in the recording section. I still have an Old LP of the band The Flying Cloud. Anyone remember them? I wonder if this record has been released on CD?
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Are there American, Austrailian, etc. Trad Styles now on Par with The Irish traditions?
i went ahead and posted it here:
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/3213
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by pipewatcher