Last night I played the Shaskeen on two occasions. First time on the box - preceded by The Concertina Reel (yeah, I know, boring but a good "driver" of a tune) then a bit later on, on the flute, preceded by Paddy's Trip to Scotland.
A) The Shaskeen is a mighty, yet "natural" tune, fitting well on both, in fact probably all, trad instruments, and also follows on nicely from either tune mentioned.
B) and more to the point, sometimes you get the feeling that eyes go in a heavenward direction if you repeat a tune...yeah yeah, I know we have a few thousand reels to choose from so why do the same one again? Well, to be honest I couldn't on the spot think up anything which flowed quite so naturally after Paddy's Trip.
It seems that repeating a tune in a session is considered slightly bad form, Harrummph, poor etiquette, chaps, what?
My view is as long as it's not done too much and if it is tune worth repeating, then it can remain as an offence meriting a mere caution from the Session Gestapo.
Shaskeen =Seasguin = apparently, from my good friend Frankie Kelly, whose mother tongue is Donegal Irish, it is a boggy place, a mossy bank, if you will.
Yeah, as long as you don't make a habit of it, a caution should suffice. The only time you can get away with it without a caution is If you come in late and play a tune that was played before you got there. But even then, expect people to stop playing and have a laugh at your expense.
A certain fiddle player who was touring around and briefly staying at my house while in between a couple gigs... I had a one of John Carty's fiddle CDs in the car, the second one, I think, which had put "The Harp and Shamrock" out there. Later at session we played it at the start and at the end, both times on its own. Just because we were so fond of it at that moment.
If someone else did it, I would have rolled my eyes. I guess it all depends on the context.
If someone comes in late and plays a tune that has already been played earlier in the evening, sometimes I will sit there quietly and listen instead of trying to accompany them.
I never repeat tunes in sessions for myself. I like to play a variety during the session. I much prefer to hear tunes from other peoples' repertoire's anyway.
But, if it does arise that a tune is played repeatedly at our session (as has happen with The Maids of Mt Cisco and Fred Finn's in the past), I use it as an opportunity to experiment with variation and different types of ornamentation. If I've multiple instruments with me (or available to me in some way), then I'll play it on them.
It need not be such a "wrist-slapping" misconduct!
In general I agree with people here. I wouldn't deliberately repeat a tune. The Shask just *seemed* to be on the agenda both times. I did jokingly apologise to my pals for trotting it out again. They put up with a lot from me anyway, but I must be doing something right since we're now a plus-five-years-old session.
I just love this rendition by young Fergus (same name as my boy): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tG3HhJ5XAyo
What we like to do when one of our session mates comes in late is to wait for him or her to start one of their favourite tunes, then stop them with "We already played that tonight" -- even though we haven't. We do that repeatedly until they catch on...
Isn't it strange that this issue is so universal in that I've never ever been to a session where this type of thing doesn't cause embarassment and slight amusement - knowing looks between those present who are aware of the transgression and embarassment on behalf of the concerned musician when it's drawn to their attention!
I thought from the title it might have been about how many times you repeat the tune. If you want to get through a lot of tunes and avoid the "we never played so and so" at the end of the night, then twice may be best but on the other hand many of us fell a bit short changed with this and favour three times. Again from most sessions I've been to, three times seems to be by far the most normal other than for single reels when it would be four. I hope you don't mind the slight hijack Alf but I feel it's kind of related.
If people want to get snarky, I guess someone playing that same tune again and again is a better reason than some. I can understand, though, it happens sometimes. You're playing along, and you come to the next tune, and what comes out is... oh, well, we played it before, but what the hell.
Starting the same tune twice in a session seems a bit more eyebrow-raising, though, than playing a tune that someone else started earlier. I'd find it a little annoying if someone did that more than once in a while. Leaving aside the case of someone wanting to hear the tune again, maybe slower so they can catch a part of it they'd missed, or something like that. If someone asks, it's polite to give it another go, it would be a little churlish to refuse. Or again, if you have a neat variation and you want to show it off, you might let the tune settle and then say something like "now here's a nice way to play the B part" and run through it a time again - that's part of the craic.
Now, why is this such a universal thing? Three reasons I can think of straight off: First, knowing a lot of tunes is a sign of skill and a thing to take pride in. Second there's only so much time in a night, and there's a lot of tunes - even if you really like the tune, maybe someone wants to play something else. Third: well, to be honest, they all DO sound the same, do we have to rub it in?
(Come to think of it, the first and second apply just as well to the "tired old standards" as well)
As for how many repeats a tune should get, I say as many as it need to get the job done. I don't usually count, I try to go with what the room wants. If I start a tune and nobody picks up on it, I might go on to something else after one or two, unless it looks like someone's trying to get a piece of it. If I've played it twice and someone picks it up on the third go, I might give them another couple of times before moving on. And if everyone in the room dives into the tune and it sounds like they're having fun, why not hit it a few more times? Two goes seems a little short, unless you're talking about Kitty O'Shea's or something.
Actually, Alf Tupper, it is supposed to be: "Jah Wohl! Herr Kommandant!"
Since my wife doesn't speak German, sometimes I will use a variation of this (Jah Wohl, Mein Fuhrer!) when my wife tries to tell me to do something or order me around.
Jon, you beat me to it...they do all sound the same, after all.
if you accept a rule like not playing the same tune twice,
then is it also unacceptable to play , for example, the boyne hunt and sailor on the rock in the same evening?
the B parts in both these tunes are extremely similar.
enough; my own question disgusts me. it is too anoraky, and is a long way from what brought me to this music in the first place.
i'm not experienced enough in this field to have noticed this yet, but the image of a group of "friends" sitting around a table, raising a knowing eyebrow to the hideous faux pas of a repeated tune....well its the biggest type of bollox, i'm sorry.
i dont understand how something leftfield like this can develop such a stupid nuanced orthodoxy.
But I don't think it's so much a sneering that we're talking about. I'd think of it as more like humoring a mildly annoying habit. Or else like ignoring a fart at the dinner table.
Jon, have you tried this one at http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/353 to go with the Green Mountain? These are definitely two tunes to keep well apart at a session. I also think you need to be a bit more discerning about who you invite to dinner!
patk,
most of the time I will accompany someone whether or not they are playing a tune which has already been played earlier before they arrived. Some of the regulars at the local sessions like to arrive "fashionably" late.
Yes, many of these tunes do sound similar--especially if you are just an accompanist/backup musician such as myself. Many of the chord patterns/progressions which I use for different tunes are similar but not exactly alike.
You may consider me slapped in the face.
Did you intend to put five smiley faces at the end of your message? If so, I can see all five of them on my computer screen at the end of your message.
Bannerman - I'd not come across that one. (Odd, since I'm a huge fan of Rodin's sculpture...) But yeah, I can see how that would get right in there and gum up the works pretty good. I'll give it a whirl... with a tune that isn't the Green Mountain.
The Tinker's Daughter is another classic composition of the late Vincent Broderick and is still a great reel even though it shares 75% of the second part with the Green Mountain. I'm sure that Vincent wouldn't have intentionally done this and I think it goes to show that one can have bits of tunes stored away in the sub-conscious memory without being aware of it.
Another matter related to this thread that I don't think has been raised is recognised combinations like Coleman's Tarbolton set and the Bothy's Salamanca set that share a common tune - The Sailor's Bonnet in this instance. My own approach here is to separate them by a couple of hours or so or alternatively play them on different nights.
"One can have bits of tunes stored away in the subconscious memory without being aware of it."
Yes, Bannerman, I agree. This is so true. I will have to plead guilty in this case because this has happened to me many times.
late arrivals to our session almost invariably ask "Have you already played this tune?" sometimes the answer is "Yes, let's play something else", sometimes it's "Yes, but let"s play it again" If a tune gets repeated in the middle of the set, we give it less repeats and move on. we tend to go through each tune more than three times in general
It is one thing to start a previously played tune and swap as soon as the boos and shouts of "repetition" start, it is another thing to ignore the comments and play the offending tune four times on your own (in a mediochre manner with no variation).
Thats just time-wasting.
If you arrive late, why not ask "have they played so-and-so tune yet?"
"it is another thing to ignore the comments and play the offending tune four times on your own (in a mediochre manner with no variation)."
geoffwright- we sometimes have That Guy at our session. More than once i have seen him start (badly) the same tune that everyone just finished playing and just plod right along cluelessly... Dismal
Repeating a tune
Repeating a tune
Last night I played the Shaskeen on two occasions. First time on the box - preceded by The Concertina Reel (yeah, I know, boring but a good "driver" of a tune) then a bit later on, on the flute, preceded by Paddy's Trip to Scotland.
A) The Shaskeen is a mighty, yet "natural" tune, fitting well on both, in fact probably all, trad instruments, and also follows on nicely from either tune mentioned.
B) and more to the point, sometimes you get the feeling that eyes go in a heavenward direction if you repeat a tune...yeah yeah, I know we have a few thousand reels to choose from so why do the same one again? Well, to be honest I couldn't on the spot think up anything which flowed quite so naturally after Paddy's Trip.
It seems that repeating a tune in a session is considered slightly bad form, Harrummph, poor etiquette, chaps, what?
My view is as long as it's not done too much and if it is tune worth repeating, then it can remain as an offence meriting a mere caution from the Session Gestapo.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Repeating a tune
Shoes are at the ready- we'll let you off if you tell us what the title means
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Repeating a tune
Shaskeen =Seasguin = apparently, from my good friend Frankie Kelly, whose mother tongue is Donegal Irish, it is a boggy place, a mossy bank, if you will.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Repeating a tune
Yeah, as long as you don't make a habit of it, a caution should suffice. The only time you can get away with it without a caution is If you come in late and play a tune that was played before you got there. But even then, expect people to stop playing and have a laugh at your expense.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Repeating a tune
Javoll, Herr Komamdant. Sieg Heil!
Trouble is the Shask is such a good tune maybe I'll play it three times next sesh. Box flute then whistle.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Repeating a tune
A certain fiddle player who was touring around and briefly staying at my house while in between a couple gigs... I had a one of John Carty's fiddle CDs in the car, the second one, I think, which had put "The Harp and Shamrock" out there. Later at session we played it at the start and at the end, both times on its own. Just because we were so fond of it at that moment.
If someone else did it, I would have rolled my eyes. I guess it all depends on the context.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Chrishty
Re: Repeating a tune
If someone comes in late and plays a tune that has already been played earlier in the evening, sometimes I will sit there quietly and listen instead of trying to accompany them.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Repeating a tune
I never repeat tunes in sessions for myself. I like to play a variety during the session. I much prefer to hear tunes from other peoples' repertoire's anyway.
But, if it does arise that a tune is played repeatedly at our session (as has happen with The Maids of Mt Cisco and Fred Finn's in the past), I use it as an opportunity to experiment with variation and different types of ornamentation. If I've multiple instruments with me (or available to me in some way), then I'll play it on them.
It need not be such a "wrist-slapping" misconduct!
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by 52Paddy
Re: Repeating a tune
In general I agree with people here. I wouldn't deliberately repeat a tune. The Shask just *seemed* to be on the agenda both times. I did jokingly apologise to my pals for trotting it out again. They put up with a lot from me anyway, but I must be doing something right since we're now a plus-five-years-old session.
I just love this rendition by young Fergus (same name as my boy):
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tG3HhJ5XAyo
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Repeating a tune
What we like to do when one of our session mates comes in late is to wait for him or her to start one of their favourite tunes, then stop them with "We already played that tonight" -- even though we haven't. We do that repeatedly until they catch on...
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by alec b
Re: Repeating a tune
Isn't it strange that this issue is so universal in that I've never ever been to a session where this type of thing doesn't cause embarassment and slight amusement - knowing looks between those present who are aware of the transgression and embarassment on behalf of the concerned musician when it's drawn to their attention!
I thought from the title it might have been about how many times you repeat the tune. If you want to get through a lot of tunes and avoid the "we never played so and so" at the end of the night, then twice may be best but on the other hand many of us fell a bit short changed with this and favour three times. Again from most sessions I've been to, three times seems to be by far the most normal other than for single reels when it would be four. I hope you don't mind the slight hijack Alf but I feel it's kind of related.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Repeating a tune
If people want to get snarky, I guess someone playing that same tune again and again is a better reason than some. I can understand, though, it happens sometimes. You're playing along, and you come to the next tune, and what comes out is... oh, well, we played it before, but what the hell.
Starting the same tune twice in a session seems a bit more eyebrow-raising, though, than playing a tune that someone else started earlier. I'd find it a little annoying if someone did that more than once in a while. Leaving aside the case of someone wanting to hear the tune again, maybe slower so they can catch a part of it they'd missed, or something like that. If someone asks, it's polite to give it another go, it would be a little churlish to refuse. Or again, if you have a neat variation and you want to show it off, you might let the tune settle and then say something like "now here's a nice way to play the B part" and run through it a time again - that's part of the craic.
Now, why is this such a universal thing? Three reasons I can think of straight off: First, knowing a lot of tunes is a sign of skill and a thing to take pride in. Second there's only so much time in a night, and there's a lot of tunes - even if you really like the tune, maybe someone wants to play something else. Third: well, to be honest, they all DO sound the same, do we have to rub it in?
(Come to think of it, the first and second apply just as well to the "tired old standards" as well)
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Repeating a tune
As for how many repeats a tune should get, I say as many as it need to get the job done. I don't usually count, I try to go with what the room wants. If I start a tune and nobody picks up on it, I might go on to something else after one or two, unless it looks like someone's trying to get a piece of it. If I've played it twice and someone picks it up on the third go, I might give them another couple of times before moving on. And if everyone in the room dives into the tune and it sounds like they're having fun, why not hit it a few more times? Two goes seems a little short, unless you're talking about Kitty O'Shea's or something.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Repeating a tune
Actually, Alf Tupper, it is supposed to be: "Jah Wohl! Herr Kommandant!"
Since my wife doesn't speak German, sometimes I will use a variation of this (Jah Wohl, Mein Fuhrer!) when my wife tries to tell me to do something or order me around.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Repeating a tune
Jon, you beat me to it...they do all sound the same, after all.
if you accept a rule like not playing the same tune twice,
then is it also unacceptable to play , for example, the boyne hunt and sailor on the rock in the same evening?
the B parts in both these tunes are extremely similar.
enough; my own question disgusts me. it is too anoraky, and is a long way from what brought me to this music in the first place.
i'm not experienced enough in this field to have noticed this yet, but the image of a group of "friends" sitting around a table, raising a knowing eyebrow to the hideous faux pas of a repeated tune....well its the biggest type of bollox, i'm sorry.
i dont understand how something leftfield like this can develop such a stupid nuanced orthodoxy.
will everyone go and slap themselves in the face.
merry christmas, by the way
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by patk
Re: Repeating a tune
i put loads of smileys at the end of that, but they disappeared.
smiley
smiley
smiley
smiley
smiley
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by patk
Re: Repeating a tune
Sure, why not? You can sing any number of tunes with similar choruses, can't you? If you can get the right B part, and not get tangled up (lately I've been mixing up the B parts of these two: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/166 and http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/901)
But I don't think it's so much a sneering that we're talking about. I'd think of it as more like humoring a mildly annoying habit. Or else like ignoring a fart at the dinner table.
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Repeating a tune
Jon, have you tried this one at http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/353 to go with the Green Mountain? These are definitely two tunes to keep well apart at a session. I also think you need to be a bit more discerning about who you invite to dinner!
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Repeating a tune
patk,
most of the time I will accompany someone whether or not they are playing a tune which has already been played earlier before they arrived. Some of the regulars at the local sessions like to arrive "fashionably" late.
Yes, many of these tunes do sound similar--especially if you are just an accompanist/backup musician such as myself. Many of the chord patterns/progressions which I use for different tunes are similar but not exactly alike.
You may consider me slapped in the face.
Did you intend to put five smiley faces at the end of your message? If so, I can see all five of them on my computer screen at the end of your message.
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Repeating a tune
Bannerman - I'd not come across that one. (Odd, since I'm a huge fan of Rodin's sculpture...) But yeah, I can see how that would get right in there and gum up the works pretty good. I'll give it a whirl... with a tune that isn't the Green Mountain.
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Repeating a tune
The Tinker's Daughter is another classic composition of the late Vincent Broderick and is still a great reel even though it shares 75% of the second part with the Green Mountain. I'm sure that Vincent wouldn't have intentionally done this and I think it goes to show that one can have bits of tunes stored away in the sub-conscious memory without being aware of it.
Another matter related to this thread that I don't think has been raised is recognised combinations like Coleman's Tarbolton set and the Bothy's Salamanca set that share a common tune - The Sailor's Bonnet in this instance. My own approach here is to separate them by a couple of hours or so or alternatively play them on different nights.
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Repeating a tune
"One can have bits of tunes stored away in the subconscious memory without being aware of it."
Yes, Bannerman, I agree. This is so true. I will have to plead guilty in this case because this has happened to me many times.
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Repeating a tune
late arrivals to our session almost invariably ask "Have you already played this tune?" sometimes the answer is "Yes, let's play something else", sometimes it's "Yes, but let"s play it again" If a tune gets repeated in the middle of the set, we give it less repeats and move on. we tend to go through each tune more than three times in general
# Posted on December 20th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Repeating a tune
It is one thing to start a previously played tune and swap as soon as the boos and shouts of "repetition" start, it is another thing to ignore the comments and play the offending tune four times on your own (in a mediochre manner with no variation).
Thats just time-wasting.
If you arrive late, why not ask "have they played so-and-so tune yet?"
# Posted on December 23rd 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Repeating a tune
Now that is a sensible suggestion geoffwright.
# Posted on December 23rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Repeating a tune
I thought so too...
"it is another thing to ignore the comments and play the offending tune four times on your own (in a mediochre manner with no variation)."
geoffwright- we sometimes have That Guy at our session. More than once i have seen him start (badly) the same tune that everyone just finished playing and just plod right along cluelessly... Dismal
# Posted on December 23rd 2008 by pipewatcher