I'm not sure if anyone else feels the same way, but I find that a lot of bodhran players in sessions, although they may be regarded as good players, make their rhythm excessively busy, rather than use a sparse rhythm which is still able to drive the music along. Many seem to emulate the groups of melody notes by using similarly grouped beats, and the effect (for me) is too much too soon. A bit like a drummer playing para-diddles all the time! I don't mean to offend anyone here - it is just me or does anyone else notice this?
Haw Jimmy, see you pal, aw ay you Drum punters ur aw the same, aye compainin!
Hi Jim, I presume I'm talking to the same Jim I met recently at the Bent Brief in Southampton. I'm the flute player who turned up once. I liked your playing, BTW.
You've opened a can of worms here! I'm forever giving out about the difference between Bodhran hitters and Bodhran players, the latter being those who know the tunes, and can add extra bits of rhythm to their playing, whereas the hitters merely hit the things hoping some of the beats are in time to the music. There is, of course, a full spectrum between these extremes.
I suspect sometimes it depends on the instrument the percussionist is accompanying. If it's a flute, the duet really rocks with fast rhythmic pulsing bodhran playing. I imagine if it's the fiddle, sparser rhythm accompaniment is better since the bowing gives the fiddle its own rhythm, so the delivery doesn't benefit from extra beats thrown in.
Hey Danny, have you been on holiday? I notice a distinct lack of postings. I do hope you were not up this way and didnt drop by the Uni.
Aye, follow the tune. I'm glad to hear that cos it is what I find I do and having watched a few videos I thought I was doing it wrong as they tend to focus mainly on straight rhythms. BTW I have taken to playing on ring binders when I dont have the Bod. with me. Works ok actually. Blue ones are best.
Other direction, but about the same mileage from here, Craig. France. AND Brittany. Spent half an evening at the Lorient Interceltique Festival. We must have just skimmed the surface as from what I saw/heard I wasn't greatly impressed. Too busy, too commercialised, too many drunks (and that coming from ME!) and not enough quality music. I kept thinking our lads could have done better than the Rocky Road to Dublin roared out through pub speakers.
I did hear some cracking Breton folky-jazzy stuff, though, and their dancing is something else....
...someone please contradict me and tell me Lorient is The Business.
(Sorry for the Hijack, Jim. Maybe this deserves its own thread!)
I'm not a fan of the busy style of Bodhran playing; my approach is to keep it simple and spacey. I do try to follow the phrase structure using the natural harmonics and dampening with my hand.
One thing I never do (though I've herd it done well occasionally) is the rolled slide up and down in pitch, which the "look at me school" of playing uses far to often.
The Bodhran has a job to do, acting like a sort of rhythmic flywheel, keeping things together and helping people to get back on if they've fallen. Ideally the other players should not be aware of it's presence except as a sort of floor on which to play, if it gets distracting then I think it's not doing its job properly.
Danny - Lorient is the business. Me and a few mates played the 25th Festival a few years ago and the music and craic were unbelieveably good.
We stayed in halls of residence at one of the local colleges and the tunes were flying 24 hours a day for 10 days.
They have over 3000 invited guests - musicians, singers, dancers, pipe bands etc and we all get fed in two sittings of over 1500 a time. Every meal time one of the pipe bands would entertain the mob while guzzling down great food, wine and cider.
Yes Danny - I'm the fiddle player at the Bent Brief in Southampton. I never really got to hear you properly, as someone was talking constantly straight into my ear during your tunes. What I did hear sounded fine!
Is it just that it is more difficult to play a sparse rhythm because of the natural tendency for the tipper to rebound against the drum after every hit, thus making it harder to control? Hearing the likes of John Joe Kelly, Colm Murphy (I know these are "big boys") I just wonder why hardly any session players seem to adopt this mainly sparse style of playing.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I've found it to be exactly correct, that a bodhran is much easier to play fast and with great ornamentation than it is to play slow and rhythmically and in near-perfect time. Not one out of ten players can affect a solid accent on the upstroke 1 in 4/4 time. The greatest drummers have learned this, I think of Pedar Mercer of the Chieftans, and his protoge', is it Kevin O'Connell. Same with John Joe. He can add ornamentation, but his fundamental is a steady backbeat. I aspire to play like that, although I am a long way off. Nice post Tanya, you summed up my sentiments, exactly!
Good man yersell Jim. The gaelicisation of my name (a kind of faffing around with the tongue of our forebears - in my case a mere 2 generations up from me) re-translates back as Daniel Mackay. From my brief forays into the histories of such things, Mac, as you know, means 'son of', not so far from the slavic vic or vich, as in Milosovich.
The other bit is Aoidh, which traced back to Old Irish Gaelic, from which the language of my ancestors did sprout, refers to some geezer who became a god, for hurling or shinty, or some such.
It's a coincidence (ie, I never thought about it at the time), that my wee boy of 10 months, Fergus, has the middle name of Aidan, a diminutive of Aoidh. So thank god time machines haven't been invented yet(?) because his name would appear to his ancestors something like (help me out if I'm wrong, Breandan {in Gaelic then English}): Fergus: Fear ghas: True/Strong Man. Aidan: Little Aoidh, Mackay: son of the aforementioned.
phhhhh.....
I wish sometimes I'd called him John Smith.
.....
....Breandan, yeah. I'm more than happy to be contradicted about Lorient. It's definitely not the kind of thing that you should take in via: car, try and find a parking space, about a mile out of town in our case, take it all in with little Master Strong Man, Ade, son of strong man, on yer back, and all that goes with it.
Why don't you guys give some more info out about festivals like Lorient? I'd have thought that would be one of the main Raisons d'etre for this discussion bit of this site.
Right.
This defo needs all this on a new thread. Sorry were hijacking your one Jim.
It's weird how life pans out - Jim (my ex brother in law and former band mate) meets Danny from Glasgow in Southampton who in turn is an old friend of Craig (bouzyboy) who is currently playing along with me in a band.Life is full of coincidences!
Anyway for what it's worth John Joe Kelly is the best Bodhran player in the world.
Alan
Actually, I don't believe that John Joe Kelly is the best player in the world. And it would depend a lot on what criteria comprises "greatest". He developed some unique techniques that have been widely copied, so, for a while he was the innovator, but that doesn't last long. As far as world standards go, he is great, but you would be surprised with what has evolved in the last three years. Besides, John Joe has taken up two other stringed instruments and is as focused on them as the drum, if not more. This is not jealousy, I've heard most of what he has recorded during the past several years, and I've heard the others. I seriously think he would agree, if asked, as he is a very grounded and humble young musician.
If you want to hear the two styles of playing discussed above, listen to Flooks Flatfish album, track one demonstrates the rhythmic backbeat style, and track 2, Eb Reels demonstrates the melodic flooowing technique, laid out back to back. Both tracks played flawlessly, by a young master at his finest.
Irish Ruff - your last paragraph explains why I think he is the best in the world and no I woudn't be surprised at what has evolved in the past three years.I have heard him play mandolin and also talked to him about his style.There are a lot of great bodhran players out there and having listened to all the masters from Peadier Mercer onwards IMHO John Joe is the best .Who do YOU think is technically and rhythmicaly better?
Alan
Jim, I would agree with you that the majority of bodhran players, including me sometimes, tend to "over-ornament" or follow the melody too closely. I think this is mainly due to a lack of understanding of how to be a backup rhythm instrument, something that is rarely taught and as far as I can tell you have to achieve through osmosis (if there's a good discussion on using the bodhran that way I haven't seen it). All of the teaching videos, books, classes etc I have seen focus on teaching mechanics rather than fitting into and complimenting a group. There is a large gap between knowing how to ornament and knowing how to place the ornaments so they sound right in the context of the music.
As a bodhran player progresses, he realizes that just playing basic rhythms often doesn't add much, then as the ornaments are learned he tends to over-use them, often mimicking the melody. This is OK for a few bars but does get annoying after a while. He them must learn how to fit it all together with the group (to play off the melody as another has said) so it sounds good and that's where the problem comes in.
I also have to admit that sometimes I get a little bored and it's fun to throw some stuff in, which I think is OK if brief and not intruding on the music.
I am a Danish bodhran player, who is also a teacher to bodhran beginners. The first thing I tell them is the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!). Before they are allowed to touch a bodhran at all, we are clapping all kinds of rhytms for about a week or so. The utmost importance of the B is keeping up the beat - to support the other musicians! When that task is achieved, you can spice up the music - but, as it is with salt - don't exaggerate!
There are too many thumpers and not enough players, is my take.
If I'm on form on the Goat, I'm knackered after a Set. Not only the physical bit, but the mental thing of keeping the time, yet following the players - now there IS an oxymoron for ye's.
AND also knowing the tunes, and fitting in the upstrokes/downstrokes, etc., and which beats to keep rolling along in the background and where to 'give it Shtick'... So for the Maid Behind the Bar, you might want to make a noise like...
.....and that's just the first phrase (Capitals meaning solid beat downstrokes, leaving the pressure off the skin, so producing a clear beat as a platform to the Music.
I must make it my next new years resolution never to tell a bodhran joke again......
That was AWESOME, Danny, awesome, that is one of the oldest tests in percussion, to be able to "sing" the melody.... I have never seen it done so well.
IrishR - One of the best of those kinda things is thon "River of Sound" album - directed by Michael O Suilleabhean, or whatever, O Sullivan (aren't there times when the matter-of-fact-ness of the language of the Saxon invader comes in handy?)
It's on video also --- somewhere --- but they do this thing, like the Indian rote-learning thing by beats, and it verbalises something like:
I've been reading this thread looking for an incling of inteligence and I think I found some in Rando's posting: "I have to admit that sometimes I get a little bored". Yes. On your way to enlightenment.
Bodhrans too busy?
Bodhrans too busy?
I'm not sure if anyone else feels the same way, but I find that a lot of bodhran players in sessions, although they may be regarded as good players, make their rhythm excessively busy, rather than use a sparse rhythm which is still able to drive the music along. Many seem to emulate the groups of melody notes by using similarly grouped beats, and the effect (for me) is too much too soon. A bit like a drummer playing para-diddles all the time! I don't mean to offend anyone here - it is just me or does anyone else notice this?
Jim
# Posted on August 14th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
I played the bodhr
# Posted on August 14th 2003 by j.hohl.kennedy
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Haw Jimmy, see you pal, aw ay you Drum punters ur aw the same, aye compainin!
Hi Jim, I presume I'm talking to the same Jim I met recently at the Bent Brief in Southampton. I'm the flute player who turned up once. I liked your playing, BTW.
You've opened a can of worms here! I'm forever giving out about the difference between Bodhran hitters and Bodhran players, the latter being those who know the tunes, and can add extra bits of rhythm to their playing, whereas the hitters merely hit the things hoping some of the beats are in time to the music. There is, of course, a full spectrum between these extremes.
I suspect sometimes it depends on the instrument the percussionist is accompanying. If it's a flute, the duet really rocks with fast rhythmic pulsing bodhran playing. I imagine if it's the fiddle, sparser rhythm accompaniment is better since the bowing gives the fiddle its own rhythm, so the delivery doesn't benefit from extra beats thrown in.
Just a speculation....
Danny.
# Posted on August 14th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Hey Danny, have you been on holiday? I notice a distinct lack of postings. I do hope you were not up this way and didnt drop by the Uni.
Aye, follow the tune. I'm glad to hear that cos it is what I find I do and having watched a few videos I thought I was doing it wrong as they tend to focus mainly on straight rhythms. BTW I have taken to playing on ring binders when I dont have the Bod. with me. Works ok actually. Blue ones are best.
# Posted on August 14th 2003 by bouzyboy
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Other direction, but about the same mileage from here, Craig. France. AND Brittany. Spent half an evening at the Lorient Interceltique Festival. We must have just skimmed the surface as from what I saw/heard I wasn't greatly impressed. Too busy, too commercialised, too many drunks (and that coming from ME!) and not enough quality music. I kept thinking our lads could have done better than the Rocky Road to Dublin roared out through pub speakers.
I did hear some cracking Breton folky-jazzy stuff, though, and their dancing is something else....
...someone please contradict me and tell me Lorient is The Business.
(Sorry for the Hijack, Jim. Maybe this deserves its own thread!)
Danny.
# Posted on August 14th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
I'm not a fan of the busy style of Bodhran playing; my approach is to keep it simple and spacey. I do try to follow the phrase structure using the natural harmonics and dampening with my hand.
One thing I never do (though I've herd it done well occasionally) is the rolled slide up and down in pitch, which the "look at me school" of playing uses far to often.
The Bodhran has a job to do, acting like a sort of rhythmic flywheel, keeping things together and helping people to get back on if they've fallen. Ideally the other players should not be aware of it's presence except as a sort of floor on which to play, if it gets distracting then I think it's not doing its job properly.
All the best
PP
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Danny - Lorient is the business. Me and a few mates played the 25th Festival a few years ago and the music and craic were unbelieveably good.
We stayed in halls of residence at one of the local colleges and the tunes were flying 24 hours a day for 10 days.
They have over 3000 invited guests - musicians, singers, dancers, pipe bands etc and we all get fed in two sittings of over 1500 a time. Every meal time one of the pipe bands would entertain the mob while guzzling down great food, wine and cider.
Anyway - on the bodhr
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by breandan
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Yes Danny - I'm the fiddle player at the Bent Brief in Southampton. I never really got to hear you properly, as someone was talking constantly straight into my ear during your tunes. What I did hear sounded fine!
Jim
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
BTW Danny, does your name translate to Daniel McCade?
Jim
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Is it just that it is more difficult to play a sparse rhythm because of the natural tendency for the tipper to rebound against the drum after every hit, thus making it harder to control? Hearing the likes of John Joe Kelly, Colm Murphy (I know these are "big boys") I just wonder why hardly any session players seem to adopt this mainly sparse style of playing.
Jim
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
I'm glad you mentioned this. I've found it to be exactly correct, that a bodhran is much easier to play fast and with great ornamentation than it is to play slow and rhythmically and in near-perfect time. Not one out of ten players can affect a solid accent on the upstroke 1 in 4/4 time. The greatest drummers have learned this, I think of Pedar Mercer of the Chieftans, and his protoge', is it Kevin O'Connell. Same with John Joe. He can add ornamentation, but his fundamental is a steady backbeat. I aspire to play like that, although I am a long way off. Nice post Tanya, you summed up my sentiments, exactly!
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Good man yersell Jim. The gaelicisation of my name (a kind of faffing around with the tongue of our forebears - in my case a mere 2 generations up from me) re-translates back as Daniel Mackay. From my brief forays into the histories of such things, Mac, as you know, means 'son of', not so far from the slavic vic or vich, as in Milosovich.
The other bit is Aoidh, which traced back to Old Irish Gaelic, from which the language of my ancestors did sprout, refers to some geezer who became a god, for hurling or shinty, or some such.
It's a coincidence (ie, I never thought about it at the time), that my wee boy of 10 months, Fergus, has the middle name of Aidan, a diminutive of Aoidh. So thank god time machines haven't been invented yet(?) because his name would appear to his ancestors something like (help me out if I'm wrong, Breandan {in Gaelic then English}): Fergus: Fear ghas: True/Strong Man. Aidan: Little Aoidh, Mackay: son of the aforementioned.
phhhhh.....
I wish sometimes I'd called him John Smith.
.....
....Breandan, yeah. I'm more than happy to be contradicted about Lorient. It's definitely not the kind of thing that you should take in via: car, try and find a parking space, about a mile out of town in our case, take it all in with little Master Strong Man, Ade, son of strong man, on yer back, and all that goes with it.
Why don't you guys give some more info out about festivals like Lorient? I'd have thought that would be one of the main Raisons d'etre for this discussion bit of this site.
Right.
This defo needs all this on a new thread. Sorry were hijacking your one Jim.
Danny.
# Posted on August 15th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
It's weird how life pans out - Jim (my ex brother in law and former band mate) meets Danny from Glasgow in Southampton who in turn is an old friend of Craig (bouzyboy) who is currently playing along with me in a band.Life is full of coincidences!
Anyway for what it's worth John Joe Kelly is the best Bodhran player in the world.
Alan
# Posted on August 16th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Alan, I'd say it's because ours is a particularly small world!
# Posted on August 16th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Actually, I don't believe that John Joe Kelly is the best player in the world. And it would depend a lot on what criteria comprises "greatest". He developed some unique techniques that have been widely copied, so, for a while he was the innovator, but that doesn't last long. As far as world standards go, he is great, but you would be surprised with what has evolved in the last three years. Besides, John Joe has taken up two other stringed instruments and is as focused on them as the drum, if not more. This is not jealousy, I've heard most of what he has recorded during the past several years, and I've heard the others. I seriously think he would agree, if asked, as he is a very grounded and humble young musician.
If you want to hear the two styles of playing discussed above, listen to Flooks Flatfish album, track one demonstrates the rhythmic backbeat style, and track 2, Eb Reels demonstrates the melodic flooowing technique, laid out back to back. Both tracks played flawlessly, by a young master at his finest.
Cheers.
# Posted on August 16th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Irish Ruff - your last paragraph explains why I think he is the best in the world and no I woudn't be surprised at what has evolved in the past three years.I have heard him play mandolin and also talked to him about his style.There are a lot of great bodhran players out there and having listened to all the masters from Peadier Mercer onwards IMHO John Joe is the best .Who do YOU think is technically and rhythmicaly better?
Alan
# Posted on August 17th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Jim, I would agree with you that the majority of bodhran players, including me sometimes, tend to "over-ornament" or follow the melody too closely. I think this is mainly due to a lack of understanding of how to be a backup rhythm instrument, something that is rarely taught and as far as I can tell you have to achieve through osmosis (if there's a good discussion on using the bodhran that way I haven't seen it). All of the teaching videos, books, classes etc I have seen focus on teaching mechanics rather than fitting into and complimenting a group. There is a large gap between knowing how to ornament and knowing how to place the ornaments so they sound right in the context of the music.
As a bodhran player progresses, he realizes that just playing basic rhythms often doesn't add much, then as the ornaments are learned he tends to over-use them, often mimicking the melody. This is OK for a few bars but does get annoying after a while. He them must learn how to fit it all together with the group (to play off the melody as another has said) so it sounds good and that's where the problem comes in.
I also have to admit that sometimes I get a little bored and it's fun to throw some stuff in, which I think is OK if brief and not intruding on the music.
# Posted on August 17th 2003 by Rando
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
I am a Danish bodhran player, who is also a teacher to bodhran beginners. The first thing I tell them is the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!). Before they are allowed to touch a bodhran at all, we are clapping all kinds of rhytms for about a week or so. The utmost importance of the B is keeping up the beat - to support the other musicians! When that task is achieved, you can spice up the music - but, as it is with salt - don't exaggerate!
# Posted on August 17th 2003 by bodhrandane
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
There are too many thumpers and not enough players, is my take.
If I'm on form on the Goat, I'm knackered after a Set. Not only the physical bit, but the mental thing of keeping the time, yet following the players - now there IS an oxymoron for ye's.
AND also knowing the tunes, and fitting in the upstrokes/downstrokes, etc., and which beats to keep rolling along in the background and where to 'give it Shtick'... So for the Maid Behind the Bar, you might want to make a noise like...
Baahh-dhrh-rat-e-Tadrh-re-ati-lladre-atle-Tadrrattle-tah....
.....and that's just the first phrase (Capitals meaning solid beat downstrokes, leaving the pressure off the skin, so producing a clear beat as a platform to the Music.
I must make it my next new years resolution never to tell a bodhran joke again......
Danny.
# Posted on August 17th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Baahh-dhrh-rat-e-Tadrh-re-ati-lladre-atle-Tadrrattle-tah....
That was AWESOME, Danny, awesome, that is one of the oldest tests in percussion, to be able to "sing" the melody.... I have never seen it done so well.
# Posted on August 17th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
IrishR - One of the best of those kinda things is thon "River of Sound" album - directed by Michael O Suilleabhean, or whatever, O Sullivan (aren't there times when the matter-of-fact-ness of the language of the Saxon invader comes in handy?)
It's on video also --- somewhere --- but they do this thing, like the Indian rote-learning thing by beats, and it verbalises something like:
Yakita-jonah-jonah, yakita-dim, Yakita-jonah-jonah, yakita-dim....
Email me if you can't access it - I'll do you a copy.
Kindest Regards.
Danny.
# Posted on August 17th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
I've been reading this thread looking for an incling of inteligence and I think I found some in Rando's posting: "I have to admit that sometimes I get a little bored". Yes. On your way to enlightenment.
# Posted on August 18th 2003 by ...
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Jimmy, do we need to discuss your feelings on this topic?
love from your bodhran playing wife
(who has a penknife and isn't afraid to use it on your brand new fiddle strings).
p.s. borrowed your log in ID (as you will now have worked out).
Irene
# Posted on August 18th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhrans too busy?
Oh my GOD I only just saw this how did I miss this the first time and now here it is 2005 -- Irene Dorans, you GO girl! ;)
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee