Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Sorry, i should have explained.... i was watching this earlier and i was wowed by it, these guys are roughly the same age as me and id kill to be able to play as well as them.. anyways i was thinking after that some people wouldn't exactly be taken with this 'take' on the music soooo..to the question that i wanted to ask, are these a) wonderfully gifted young musicians who are leading the music in the 'right' direction or are they b) technically perfect syncopating whippersnappers who should be locked in a room with 1920's LPs to calm them down?
NB = (im just thinking out loud, not starting an argument....)
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Great two tunes. Played a tad too fast for my liking but then that's just because they can ( and I can't). But yeah lets hear from the Senior crowd whoever they are.
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Too fast. Last week on Clare FM, Claire Keville broadcast an interview with Cork accordion player Eoghan O'Sullivan (from Smoky Chimney). He talked about going through and growing out of what he called the "boy racer" phase of his musical development.
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I thought they were great players, but there was a relentlessness about the playing that didn't convey utter enjoyment (which is all I ever seek). I got the distinct impression that some of 'em were being swept along instead of being laid back and enjoying it. A lot of furious foot-tapping. Man, I know that feeling when some pillock wants to go a tad too fast. Also, there was a sourness about the overall sound that would prevent you from wanting to hear it again and again - basically, as Michael said, they were not in tune enough. But hey, it rocked, and 8 and a half on 10, which is a bloody sight more than anyone would ever give my lot!
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
It occurs to me, Mr Galway, Frankie Gavin is in my age group
(ie the John Travolta age group) and goes like a maniac. So did
the late Sean McGuire, so did Coleman so .... I dunno .... I guess
us 'oldies' can't complain too much about this kind of rock n' roll
Tune playing.
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Mental fast sessions can be a lot of fun (for the players) but the music doesn't usually sound too great. Maybe it's because there's not enough time to listen to each other properly, so tuning, tight timing, interesting variation, thoughtful ornamentation etc. goes out the window.
That said, I seem to recall that this was the last weekend of the Fleadh, so there were probably other factors in the mix...
Good times, good times.
I liked it but I wouldn't be over the moon about it. I have no philosophical objection to playing that fast but I probably wouldn't listen to it again. I like slower music as I get older - as Martin Hayes says, when you slow the music down the poignant quality comes through.
Here's a better clip with Tara Breen, the young fiddler, and an accomplished young fluter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzWH4s5NafE
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I really don't think it's that fast. The Bothy Band played faster than that. And most of my mates are well capable of retaining their musicality playing faster than that. As Hup says, The idea that playing up to speed is the prerogative of the young is daft. However, I must admit to playing considerably faster than that when I was their age, with little music in it ... I should have had their restraint.
But you can't judge players on one clip. My money is on them being more than capable of cranking it up and down from what we hear here.
I'd say that, now, I'b be usually found to be playing slower than that. But that doesn't mean you won't find me playing faster, and loving it. Playing fast is great. There's something very exciting about playing up to the edge of your ability, It makes you take risks. When you play at a more reasonable pace, when you take it easy, play easy, make it sound easy, do all the things you are supposed to do with the music, it's harder to take risks. You have to force yourself.
I think taking risks is very important. It stops you from having that really dull rehearsed sound.
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
This is just the sort of thing that keeps the tradition alive rather than mummified. You're right Willie Coleman played faster - as did/does Ashley McIsaac and the Bothy Band - I just wish I could keep learning the new tunes as fast as they appear in the sessions! As for syncopation - I was doing it before these guys were born...
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
When I try to learn tunes from CDs of good bands I'm often surprised at how fast they're playing when I'm trying to keep up. They just don't sound fast. I think the people in the clip did sound fast. Two of 'em were wrecking their legs with furious foot-tapping. Speaks volumes.
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
There's a difference between bands and solo performers working up material to high speed for concerts and recordings and playing fast off the cuff at a session.
In the video, they're not playing outrageously fast, but it would have sounded better a little slower.
The idea that Coleman (Michael, not Willie) played super fast on reels (not jigs, which are very fast) is not supported by the recordings on the 2-disc Gael Linn set. That recording has 23 sets of reels, including 45 tunes. 2/3 of them are played below 120 bpm. The session in the video that we're discussing is around 122.
I don't have many Bothy Band recordings, but Kevin Burke solo only tops 120 on 5 of the 73 reels I have in my collection. And Frankie Gavin only tops 120 on 7 of the 20 reels on Fierce Traditional. His track with Jackie Daly and Alec Finn on the 2nd Come West Along The Road DVD is around 118.
Sean McGuire did indeed play very fast. All 14 reels I have on the CD I own are between 139 and 155 bpm, which is much faster than anybody else. He's very much an outlier.
Ashley MacIsaac is totally irrelevant in this discussion, being from a different tradition, and much of his performance and a good portion of his recordings being well outside of that tradition.
Here are the details from the Coleman recording:
Sailor on the Rock 105
Bunch of Keys 105
Farrel O'Gara 106
Good Morning to Your Nightcap 102
Doctor Gilbert 110
Queen of May 112
Tarbolton 110
Longford Collector 111
Sailor's Bonnet 113
Lord Gordon 111
Paddy Ryan's Dream 112
Mama's Pet 110
Boys of the Lough 112
Devils of Dublin 112
Bonnie Kate 114
Jennie's Chickens 118
Crowley's 1 114
Crowley's 2 115
Lord McDonald 115
Ballinasloe Fair 113
Farewell to Ireland 115
Farewell to Erin 117
Pigeon on the Gate 116
Miss Monahan's 118
Duke of Leinster 116
Duke of Leinster's Wife 115
Crooked Road to Dublin 119
Sligo Maid 121
Rakish Paddy 119
Boys of Ballisodare 118
Real Blackthorn Stick 120
Green Groves of Erin 123
Morning Dew 120
Woman of the House 117
Green Fields of America 122
Swallow's Tail 122
Lucy Campbell 122
Reidy Johnson's 123
Farewell to Leitrim 124
Shaskeen 123
Bag of Spuds 123
Kerry 123
Boyne Hunt 124
Kerryman's Daughter 126
Bird in the Tree 123
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Ha! 'boy racer phase' i must remember that! Anyways, i think they are great great musicians, this clip sounded a bit frantic though which might have something to do with the fleadh and the late nights...
"There's something very exciting about playing up to the edge of your ability, It makes you take risks." llig
I totally agree, when youre playing at the edge you forget what you want to do and you start to focus on the music, you dont have time to plan so what comes out is all the 'mad' stuff from the back of your head!!!
oh and i used 'senior' instead of 'old' on purpose, not just as a euphemism ;) , i meant anybody whos been playing for a good oul while (completely subjective i know) and who have notions and ideas about the music! thats all!
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Galway, by your standard then I am 'junior'. I like anything that's good,
whether it's Martin Hayes in contemplative mode, Gavin or the
Slibh Luacra gang. BTW Gary have you timed any cuts from Gavin's
'Jiggin the Blues'? Aha! And another old racer --- Cathal Haydn ---
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I don't have "Jiggin the Blues". I don't claim to be in my right mind. I gathered that info when I was preparing to teach a "Music and Math" course about four years ago. I haven't updated the spreadsheet in the past three years, though I do sometimes think about it.
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
[Last week on Clare FM, Claire Keville broadcast an interview with ....]
speaking of which, the week after that there was no CK show in archives, and this week the tuesday show is completely gone from the archive page.....? where claire?
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
"when youre playing at the edge you forget what you want to do and you start to focus on the music, you dont have time to plan so what comes out is all the 'mad' stuff from the back of your head" Thanks galway-fiddle
Yeah, that's what I'm on about. It's very hard when you are playing at that "deliberacy" pace to access that mad stuff from the back of your head. If you have to make the effort to do it, it looses its meaning, it becomes deliberate.
Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ElOuejqri8
Discuss!
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by galway-fiddle
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
What? People playing tunes, it happens.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Sorry, i should have explained.... i was watching this earlier and i was wowed by it, these guys are roughly the same age as me and id kill to be able to play as well as them.. anyways i was thinking after that some people wouldn't exactly be taken with this 'take' on the music soooo..to the question that i wanted to ask, are these a) wonderfully gifted young musicians who are leading the music in the 'right' direction or are they b) technically perfect syncopating whippersnappers who should be locked in a room with 1920's LPs to calm them down?
NB = (im just thinking out loud, not starting an argument....)
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by galway-fiddle
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I think one would have to isolate each one in a goldfish bowl to know.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
It's pretty good playing. But I'd prefer it if they were in tune
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by ...
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
what?
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Farr
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Great two tunes. Played a tad too fast for my liking but then that's just because they can ( and I can't). But yeah lets hear from the Senior crowd whoever they are.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Donough
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Too fast. Last week on Clare FM, Claire Keville broadcast an interview with Cork accordion player Eoghan O'Sullivan (from Smoky Chimney). He talked about going through and growing out of what he called the "boy racer" phase of his musical development.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Now that I understand the post, yes, excellent.
All musicians can play, some better than others, but it is all music, and should be enjoyed.
Yes, a nice clip.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I cannot find any more clips with the piper Sean McCarthy.
Do you anything about him?
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Yes I liked that expression Gary and now he's got that easy Slibh Luacra
thing happening instead.
However, the kids rock! It's all under control and sounds great. People
try to race in my session sometimes and it gets all disjointed and chaotic.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
How old is senior?
It's a nice steady pace, but the playing's not too tight, which makes it sound a tad rushed. Enjoyed listening to it, mind.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Pomme de Terre
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I thought they were great players, but there was a relentlessness about the playing that didn't convey utter enjoyment (which is all I ever seek). I got the distinct impression that some of 'em were being swept along instead of being laid back and enjoying it. A lot of furious foot-tapping. Man, I know that feeling when some pillock wants to go a tad too fast. Also, there was a sourness about the overall sound that would prevent you from wanting to hear it again and again - basically, as Michael said, they were not in tune enough. But hey, it rocked, and 8 and a half on 10, which is a bloody sight more than anyone would ever give my lot!
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
As old as John Travolta
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Oh, in that case, disregard my last...
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Pomme de Terre
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I'm not a senior, of course... but I loved it.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by JosephC
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
So you should, young racer
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
It occurs to me, Mr Galway, Frankie Gavin is in my age group
(ie the John Travolta age group) and goes like a maniac. So did
the late Sean McGuire, so did Coleman so .... I dunno .... I guess
us 'oldies' can't complain too much about this kind of rock n' roll
Tune playing.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Just like you, I'd like to get up to speed and then I'll be able to switch it
off and on as I see fit.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Mental fast sessions can be a lot of fun (for the players) but the music doesn't usually sound too great. Maybe it's because there's not enough time to listen to each other properly, so tuning, tight timing, interesting variation, thoughtful ornamentation etc. goes out the window.
That said, I seem to recall that this was the last weekend of the Fleadh, so there were probably other factors in the mix...
Good times, good times.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Dragut Reis
As a senior...
I liked it but I wouldn't be over the moon about it. I have no philosophical objection to playing that fast but I probably wouldn't listen to it again. I like slower music as I get older - as Martin Hayes says, when you slow the music down the poignant quality comes through.
Here's a better clip with Tara Breen, the young fiddler, and an accomplished young fluter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzWH4s5NafE
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by David Levine
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I really don't think it's that fast. The Bothy Band played faster than that. And most of my mates are well capable of retaining their musicality playing faster than that. As Hup says, The idea that playing up to speed is the prerogative of the young is daft. However, I must admit to playing considerably faster than that when I was their age, with little music in it ... I should have had their restraint.
But you can't judge players on one clip. My money is on them being more than capable of cranking it up and down from what we hear here.
I'd say that, now, I'b be usually found to be playing slower than that. But that doesn't mean you won't find me playing faster, and loving it. Playing fast is great. There's something very exciting about playing up to the edge of your ability, It makes you take risks. When you play at a more reasonable pace, when you take it easy, play easy, make it sound easy, do all the things you are supposed to do with the music, it's harder to take risks. You have to force yourself.
I think taking risks is very important. It stops you from having that really dull rehearsed sound.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by ...
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
This is just the sort of thing that keeps the tradition alive rather than mummified. You're right Willie Coleman played faster - as did/does Ashley McIsaac and the Bothy Band - I just wish I could keep learning the new tunes as fast as they appear in the sessions! As for syncopation - I was doing it before these guys were born...
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by ijerry
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
wouldn't delv too far into it...just a set of tunes after a very late night!
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by ljw
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
When I try to learn tunes from CDs of good bands I'm often surprised at how fast they're playing when I'm trying to keep up. They just don't sound fast. I think the people in the clip did sound fast. Two of 'em were wrecking their legs with furious foot-tapping. Speaks volumes.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
The kids are alright.
Good point too Mr. Shaw re: sounding fast and playing fast.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Taoiseach, leave them kids alone...
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
There's a difference between bands and solo performers working up material to high speed for concerts and recordings and playing fast off the cuff at a session.
In the video, they're not playing outrageously fast, but it would have sounded better a little slower.
The idea that Coleman (Michael, not Willie) played super fast on reels (not jigs, which are very fast) is not supported by the recordings on the 2-disc Gael Linn set. That recording has 23 sets of reels, including 45 tunes. 2/3 of them are played below 120 bpm. The session in the video that we're discussing is around 122.
I don't have many Bothy Band recordings, but Kevin Burke solo only tops 120 on 5 of the 73 reels I have in my collection. And Frankie Gavin only tops 120 on 7 of the 20 reels on Fierce Traditional. His track with Jackie Daly and Alec Finn on the 2nd Come West Along The Road DVD is around 118.
Sean McGuire did indeed play very fast. All 14 reels I have on the CD I own are between 139 and 155 bpm, which is much faster than anybody else. He's very much an outlier.
Ashley MacIsaac is totally irrelevant in this discussion, being from a different tradition, and much of his performance and a good portion of his recordings being well outside of that tradition.
Here are the details from the Coleman recording:
Sailor on the Rock 105
Bunch of Keys 105
Farrel O'Gara 106
Good Morning to Your Nightcap 102
Doctor Gilbert 110
Queen of May 112
Tarbolton 110
Longford Collector 111
Sailor's Bonnet 113
Lord Gordon 111
Paddy Ryan's Dream 112
Mama's Pet 110
Boys of the Lough 112
Devils of Dublin 112
Bonnie Kate 114
Jennie's Chickens 118
Crowley's 1 114
Crowley's 2 115
Lord McDonald 115
Ballinasloe Fair 113
Farewell to Ireland 115
Farewell to Erin 117
Pigeon on the Gate 116
Miss Monahan's 118
Duke of Leinster 116
Duke of Leinster's Wife 115
Crooked Road to Dublin 119
Sligo Maid 121
Rakish Paddy 119
Boys of Ballisodare 118
Real Blackthorn Stick 120
Green Groves of Erin 123
Morning Dew 120
Woman of the House 117
Green Fields of America 122
Swallow's Tail 122
Lucy Campbell 122
Reidy Johnson's 123
Farewell to Leitrim 124
Shaskeen 123
Bag of Spuds 123
Kerry 123
Boyne Hunt 124
Kerryman's Daughter 126
Bird in the Tree 123
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
snort. "senior" probably means "over the age of 20" on this forum.
Anyway, I thought they played too fast and sounded a little too rehearsed.
Didn't care for the tune, either. Too rambly and busy sounding without any hooks. Where were the phrases? The long notes?
Itwaslikelisteningtosomeonewhoneverpausestotakeabreathgiveaspeechorifyouwilllikelisteningtoapoetryreadingwherethereaderignoresalltheendstoppedlinesandpunctuations
It's obvious they can play very well. I just don't think this shows them in the best possible light.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Ha! 'boy racer phase' i must remember that! Anyways, i think they are great great musicians, this clip sounded a bit frantic though which might have something to do with the fleadh and the late nights...
"There's something very exciting about playing up to the edge of your ability, It makes you take risks." llig
I totally agree, when youre playing at the edge you forget what you want to do and you start to focus on the music, you dont have time to plan so what comes out is all the 'mad' stuff from the back of your head!!!
oh and i used 'senior' instead of 'old' on purpose, not just as a euphemism ;) , i meant anybody whos been playing for a good oul while (completely subjective i know) and who have notions and ideas about the music! thats all!
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by galway-fiddle
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Galway, by your standard then I am 'junior'. I like anything that's good,
whether it's Martin Hayes in contemplative mode, Gavin or the
Slibh Luacra gang. BTW Gary have you timed any cuts from Gavin's
'Jiggin the Blues'? Aha! And another old racer --- Cathal Haydn ---
# Posted on December 18th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Gary, who in their right mind would measure all those tunes -- you're
insane!!! I say that with no malice.
# Posted on December 18th 2008 by Hup
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
I don't have "Jiggin the Blues". I don't claim to be in my right mind. I gathered that info when I was preparing to teach a "Music and Math" course about four years ago. I haven't updated the spreadsheet in the past three years, though I do sometimes think about it.
# Posted on December 18th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
[Last week on Clare FM, Claire Keville broadcast an interview with ....]
speaking of which, the week after that there was no CK show in archives, and this week the tuesday show is completely gone from the archive page.....? where claire?
# Posted on December 18th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Don't know. Maybe they screwed up the recording or accidentally deleted the file.
# Posted on December 18th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
"when youre playing at the edge you forget what you want to do and you start to focus on the music, you dont have time to plan so what comes out is all the 'mad' stuff from the back of your head" Thanks galway-fiddle
Yeah, that's what I'm on about. It's very hard when you are playing at that "deliberacy" pace to access that mad stuff from the back of your head. If you have to make the effort to do it, it looses its meaning, it becomes deliberate.
# Posted on December 18th 2008 by ...
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
Claire's show from this week is now on the archive page.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Just wondering what the more senior crowd thinks.....
whew, thanks.
# Posted on December 19th 2008 by ceemonster