I hear swing when others don't. I'm trying to make sure I'm not losing my mind. Here's my two big question:
1) Are complete straight reels, absolutely no swing, exclusive to modern tune bands and beginners?
2) Did any well respected Irish traditional musicians ever play a jig completely straight without any lengthening of the first note of every three? (Beats one and four?)
You often hear it said that reels are straight and hornpipes are swung. I've compared many reels and hornpipes from Clare FM using Transcribe!, software for slowing down the music, seeing the waveforms, and more. When I slow down the tunes to 25%, I clearly hear that both reels and hornpipes are swung. My current generalization is that reels are played with a subtle swing and hornpipes are played with a heavy swing. You can see it it the waveforms. In many, many Irish sessions in the U.S., the reels are played so straight it makes every tune sound like a machine gun going off. (Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat)
Jigs at most sessions in the U.S. seem to played in this same rigid, straight way. (Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat) Ends up sounding like a midi file. In Jig playing, I hear anywhere from a subtle extension of the notes on the first and fourth beat of each measure to a pretty noticeable extension. I call this swing. Some jig recordings might sound straight but when I slow them down 25%, the truth comes out. It seems there's always at least a subtle swing.
Irish midi files on the net are hard to listen to because there's no swing. Just about all midi sequencer software allows you to add degrees of swing. What gives? It's the same thing with Southern American Old-Time tunes. There are degrees of swing. I've heard it as well in African music.
Would someone please straighten me out? (Pardon the pun...)
Don't you think you ought to maybe state it more like "at most sessions in the U.S. *that I've been to*..."? Otherwise it's a rather sweeping statement that might give people the wrong idea. I haven't been to many sessions that play things real straight and midi-like....
swing is a more subtle thing than can be analysed with computer software. For a start, the amount of swing will vary from note to note, deliberatly, as part of a musicians phrasing. Also, by giving a note a bit more attack, this can have the aural effect of bringing it forward, and vice versa.
And what makes a tune a reel or a hornpipe is not dependent on the swing, it's the tune itself, like wise with jigs and slides. Sure you can distort a reel into a hornpipe and a jig slide into a jig, but the essence of the forms is in the phasing of the tunes, not any artificial mean measurement.
"In many, many Irish sessions in the U.S the reels are played so straight..."
"Jigs at most sessions in the U.S.... "
Stephen,
I'd say you need to get to different sessions that's all. "Tis the swing that lulls one to the great places. Ears were invented long before computers, trust them.
Reverend, you are right. Instead of saying "at most sessions in the U.S.," I should say, "at many of the sessions I've been to in the U.S." I've certainly heard some grand playing in various U.S. cities and wouldn't want to imply that America can't swing. There is that matter of Jazz. lol
I've always heard good Irish players urge new players to listen, listen, listen. "The real music can't be got with a piece of paper." "The rhythm is where it's at. Listen to good, traditional playing." "People will know if you've put in the time by your rhythm."
If this is such a big deal, and I believe it is, a website with short excepts from great players would really help. The FACTS of the rhythm can be revealed by slowing down the examples and showing things graphically.
How about irishrhythm.org? Hit 'em hard and fast? It could start with the subtle differences in how great players have played reels, hornpipes, and jigs throughout different times and places. Later on, other aspects of rhythm could be covered, like the way some players cram a roll while others play rolls very straight. I know I've got a lot to learn. Any ideas?
1) Are complete straight reels, absolutely no swing, exclusive to modern tune bands and beginners?
2) Did any well respected Irish traditional musicians ever play a jig completely straight without any lengthening of the first note of every three? (Beats one and four?)
I have to admit, I'm a bit confused with this idea of "swing" in reels and jigs... when I think of swing, I think of obvious syncopation (like what you would hear in 50's *swing* music)which is not evident (at least to me - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) in jigs and reels. And I certainly don't play the tunes with that kind of syncopation. I do, however, emphasize certain notes slightly more than others which, as Llig pointed out, can sound like it's being brought forward.
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:10:36 -0000
Reply-To: Irish Traditional Music List <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Irish Traditional Music List <[log in to unmask]>
From: Caoimhin MacAoidh <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Bowing & accents in Jigs
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I posted this message on the fiddle list in respect of a discussion taking
place on learning bowing & general playing of jigs. As it has a wider
connotation than just fiddling, I thought it might be of interest on this
list.
Caoimhin
I think there are two areas to consider in this discussion:
1 The theory & its associated technique;
2 The aim or what you are trying to achieve
In Irish-style jig playing there are three primary accent patterns:
1 An Even pattern, for example:
even - even - even even - even - even
In this case, each note of the six notes / bar gets the same stress.
Writers on the Irish styles (myself included) generalise that the Donegal
genius John Doherty played an attacking, staccatto bow style with even
stress on the six notes. Put simply, this is ok as a generalisation but the
true fact is when you listen to John's jig playing he does inject a rhythm
by playing:
slightly hard - even - even slightly hard - even - even
2 A Standard pattern:
hard - soft -soft hard - soft - soft
This results in a strong rhythm and is the most typical stress pattern
played in Irish jig playing. In the mid-70s Paddy Glackin (I strongly
recommend regular and frequent exposure to his playing) impressed on me to
single bow jigs. This has worked well for me. Paddy is teaching a master
class in County Down in a week's time and I'd bet my great granfather's
gold watch he will be stressing the same pattern of bowing - in general
(see comments below).
3 A more intricate pattern:
hard - soft - slightly hard hard - soft - slightly hard
This pattern gives a great lift in the music. The extra emphasis on the
third note provides a great pulse once you ensure the third note accent is
never strong enough to clash with the fully stressed fourth note which
follows.
That's the theory and in practice all of these patterns are played by Irish
fiddlers.
As for part 2, this is where I think there may be more answers to your
query. There are no rules in Irish fiddle playing, in my opinion. There are
guidelines, which are general. Everything that you do should be aimed at
producing a sound you like. Don't let the technique drive you too much.
More often than not, people fail to realise that listening, both casual and
concentrated is practise in itslef. You will absorb the sound of the music
and eventually things like accent stresses will develop in your playing.
You should be aiming to have fun with your music and playing. Don't let
rules and "Laws" be overbearing on you.
For example, I was greatly helped by following a single bowing pattern in
my jig playing from an early stage, primarily as it suited the style I'm
passionate about - Donegal fiddle playing. There are passages which are
slurred in jigs however. I slur them. Paddy Glackin will slur them
etc.though we both (I suspect) agree single bowing patterns are an
advantage (ie an advantage and not a law)! Other players slur quite a bit.
Listen to Kevin Burke's audio tutor tapes on the Homespun label and he'll
even talk you through it and tell you why he likes to slur a certain
passage in the jigs he teaches.
I am currently completing the editing of the Sliabh Luachra master, Padraig
O'Caoimh's (O'Keefee) manuscripts for publication. Padraig wrote out almost
1,000 tunes each complete with full bowing. His jigs show a number of
different patterns depending on the tune and note sequence. The only law he
used was start on a down bow as gravity makes the draw on the string harder
and helps to accent the first note.
I think you can see my argument now that bowing (not only in jigs) is
CONTINGENT - based on what the particular note sequences are (where they
are located on the strings) and how they sound. There are NO LAWS. There
are general guidances (such as for me single bowing) which will depend on
the style you want to play. Take this one step further. I outlined 3 rhythm
patterns. There is no law which says when you start a tune with one pattern
you must stick with it until you're done playing the tune. You can, and
sometimes are well advised (because the result is good, fun music) to
switch between the different accent patterns.
To develop style, listen intensely to that whic fires your imagination
(even very simple styles have brilliant attractions- they all don't have to
have pyrotechnics!). It will get into your mind exactly as your speech did.
You don't actually think "will I say toe-mate-o or will I say toe-mot-o"
when you want to use the word. You just say it in your natural accent. Your
music will ultimately have the accent reflective of your listening
concentration. You will instinctively seek out the sounds in your playing.
You will not think slur or staccatto. It will take some time, but think of
all the enjoyment you'll get along the way.
Toby Rider's communication reflects this process. He's obviously feeling
around for sounds, not slaving to technique.
In my experience in the long term, I learned more with a regime of 90%
listening and 10% with asking questions & consciously analysing technique.
I realise this may be harder to do if you do not surrounded by a good
number of active musicans playing the style you like but the only
alternative in that scenario is to give up, which in everybody's case would
be a disaster.
Syncopation and swing are two completely different things.
"syncopation. Device used by composers in order to vary position of the stress on notes so as to avoid regular rhythm. Syncopation is achieved by accenting a weak instead of a strong beat, by putting rests on strong beats, by holding on over strong beats, and by introducing a sudden change of time-signature. First used at time of ars nova, and exploited to fullest capabilities by jazz musicians, often in improvisation. Stravinsky, Bartók, etc. also employ syncopation with dramatic effect." - Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, 4th edition
"Syncopation - The regular shifting of each beat in a measured pattern by the same amount ahead of or behind its normal position in that pattern" - THE GROVE CONCISE DICTIONARY OF MUSIC
"Swing or shuffle rhythm - a rhythmic style, unique to jazz [UNIQUE TO JAZZ?!?!?], in which the first of a pair of written quavers (eighth notes) is played longer than the second, even twice as long, while the second tends to receive a slight accent, though the distribution of accents is irregular and syncopated. The degree of this effect depends on the overall tempo, and is modified by the requirements of expression and phrasing" - http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss5.htm
By the way, at least one major music dictionary didn't seem to know what it meant to "swing your eighths." Most of them talk like swing is something only found in Jazz. How many symphonic orchestras do you know where the conductor asks "please swing the sixteenths" and they can actually do it. "Not a heavy swing," he asks and they adjust.
Swing your eighths - in 4/4, the first eighth of every beat is slightly elongated while the ANDs start a little later, their length being shortened. How much the first eighth of every beat is lengthened is described as the degree of swing. It usually can't be described as dotted. That's giving it too much length. It's somewhere between straight and dotted. Imagine the eighths on the ANDs of each beat are hanging from a rope. Imagine those eights all SWINGING to the right. You can swing groups of three eight-notes as well. Lengthen the first and shorten the second.
A good player can vary their degree of swing from beat to beat. Different players in the same band on the same tune, while generally hanging together, can function with different degrees of swing. Just listen to Farewell To Erin from the Bothy Band's OLD HAG YOU HAVE KILLED ME.
You can actually swing all kinds of things and I've never really read a good description of any of this. Don't think of just the dots on the paper, it's about the underlying beat; that loose or tight grid that guides the pattern of lengthening and shortening of notes.
You CAN'T just pay attention to the rhythm of the audible notes. You MUST be in touch with the fundamental, underlying pulse of the music. Whether I'm playing a jig on my instrument or not, I still feel the fundamental rhythm.
stephen
as Llig has mentioned in previous thread link above...the 'across the bar' thing is really important to achieving that inner pulse or nyah.
In point 2 of your opener...what you "may" hear as a long first note in a jig could well be also the effect of slurring from note 6 to 1....ie, across the bar. it's also nice to slur 3 to 4...across the phrase....you'll hear both patterns in good players.
"...the 'across the bar' thing is really important to achieving that inner pulse...what you "may" hear as a long first note in a jig could well be also the effect of slurring from note 6 to 1..." - mtodd
I appreciate the idea of 'across the bar' but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm primarily talking about the underlying pulse of the music where, in 6/8, the first and fourth beat of each measure is lengthened, cutting short the second and fifth. It's the underlying rhythm I feel whether I'm making a sound or not; holding or tying a note over from beat six to one or not. Playing whistle, even if I sit out 8 measures to showcase the fiddle, I'm still feeling this swing in the foundational rhythm of the jig.
The across the bar thing, or similar effects achieved by tying notes, creates syncopation and I LOVE that.
"...what you "may" hear as a long first note in a jig could well be also the effect of slurring from note 6 to 1...." - mtodd
I understand the idea of holding a note into another beat, especially across the bar, but that's not what I'm talking about. That's how I create syncopation.
I'm talking about the underlying, foundational pulse of the music that can include varying degrees of swing or not. I feel this whether I'm playing or not. In the case of the jig, it's the lengthening of the first and fourth beat of each measure by different degrees even in the same performance.
Stephen. Have a look at the timing of those eighth-notes in the hornpipe clip in your software. I did and was surprised, even though I had been told what was going on.
I'm sure someone will call me a loony nerd for doing this, but I charted out four measures to show exactly how long the eighth-notes along with the waveform. I'll blame it on david_h.
From the PDF: "MacDarra Ó Raghallaigh on Fiddle - The Hornpipe “An Sean Bhean Bhocht” - http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_4_hornpipes/ - This is the first four measures of the repeat of the first A-part. The numbered boxes label the beats. The numbered green arrows mark the occurrence of each note. Each red box shows the length of the eighth-notes that fall on the beat. Each green box shows the length of the eighth-notes that fall on the AND of the beat.
The swing is pretty subtle most of the time. Nothing is really dotted like all the books say. The eighth-note pairs are sometimes near straight. There’s a couple of times where the first eighth-note of a pair is shorter than the second. Check out what happens with the Treble. The AND of that beat occurs quite late. The treble is somewhere between (two sixteenths and an eighth) and a triplet.
I realize some of this may not be intentional on the player’s part, but looking at the rest of the piece, these type of things happen consistently and I believe it’s all part of the style of a good player. I believe the very best of players are doing these things all the time.
The underlying pulses of the music BREATH and are ELASTIC. (The foot stomp on ONE. The grid of eighths. The actual melody. The ornaments.) I think good players internalize the beat on MANY nested levels quite unconsciously, some consciously. It’s beautiful music, really."
I realize each player is a little different. I read in another thread that this fellow doesn't swing as much as some.
mtodd - Thanks for that interesting quote from Caoimhin Mac Aoidh. What Stephen's two questions immediately made me think of was the playing of Johnny Doherty, which is about the closest I have heard to absolutely 'straight' playing - I don't know how typical this is (or was - perhaps more so now, due to Doherty's own influence) of Donegal fiddling. No doubt there are subtle accents in his playing, as Caoimhin suggests - he certainly played great music, with or without 'swing'. But I can remember hearing him for the first time and being unable to fathom whether what he was playing was a jig or a reel, so even were his notes.
Happy to take the blame. I'm new at this but an experienced nerd. When I have trouble tying up the what I hear and the words I that read I resort to technology. My technique is to load it into Audacity and look and the 'spectrum' plot rather than the default of 'waveform'. For solo fiddle the note lengths become very visible and measureable.
What struck me was that I was told it was straight, but it sounded really 'hornpipey' (and not just to me) . I was amazed at just how even in length most of the eighth-notes next to other eighth-notes were (I'll keep the bar lines out of it). So I think my ear is fooled by what llig mentions above - an apparent uneven division of the beat that is coming from dynamics not 'dottedness'.
It seems as if many people do refer to that as 'swing' in ITM. How does it compare with Benny Goodman ?
stephen ~
I've always heard good Irish players urge new players to listen, listen, listen. "The real music can't be got with a piece of paper."
& then you go looking for every visual aid imaginable. Do you spend much time contemplating what music looks like?
Seems the subtle bits you are asking about are more immediately audible than they are visual.
The reason I ask is because I recently had a procedure done on my eyes. While I was awaiting the operation my ears served me better than I might have imagined. I'm gonna use them.
BTW the eyes are now 20 -20!
I cannot find where Michael describes;
" . . .an apparent uneven division of the beat that is coming from dynamics not 'dottedness"
but I fail to understand how Audacity is contradicting what Michael says about dynamics. Does the spectrum plot show note length but not let's say attack? What is it removing?
Speaking of Paddy Glackin, I've heard him play both 'straight' and
'swung' hornpipes with two different pipers. Paddy Keenan was
the swinging one and I don't recall the other - was broadcast on TG4
not too long ago. He might be my favourite fiddler for today,
but I find something to like in almost every fiddler I've heard --
even Kevin Burke
He doesn't play 100% single-bowed jigs by the way - there's just a lot
of single bowing in them.
You're not thinking of Liam O'Flynn are you?
Anyway I found a good discussion from years past w/Dow & Michael discussing Irish hornpipes, seppuku, & Frankie Gavin's playing w/Paul Brock. It is a classic;
"How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]"
October 9th 2004 by fiddlinviolinin http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4666
All the people saying "across the bar" - what I think they're trying to get across is when you minimize by making beats 2 and 5 soft or late you emphasize the feeling of the terminal eight note in a beat pushing into the main beat. They're not really disagreeing with you or insisting on synchopation.
Paddy Glackin's name is all over this thread - listen to "In Full Spate" for some great examples of rock solid straight eighth notes in jigs that still have great feeling. Or listen to other things he's recorded for other options. He's a fiddler I *always* recommend to students interested in this particular issue.
there are many ways you can play across the bar. Making the tune play straight through the end and back into the beginning in a single phrase is the sublime classic example. And in the ensemble playing of a really good small session, it's the best way yo set up the playing of a tune for the forth time, if you fancy it. If someone drives right through the end and back in, you have to follow.
But the most common use of playing through the bar line is where the start of a tune has a couple of notes before the down beat of the first bar. And so the repeat a couple of notes before the end of the bar.
I just listened to Paddy Glackin and Paddy Keenan - My Darling Asleep / Garrett Barry's Jig from http://www.irishfiddle.com/glackin.html. It's not a heavy swing but it's there for sure. I exported a half-speed version. Have a listen:
Random_notes writes, "does the waveform show these;
attack, accent, rest, slide, slur, &/or phrase?"
Yes, it shows clues about all these except phrasing. Phrasing isn't so obvious. That's better heard and felt. By the way, just because I'm slowing something down with a computer doesn't mean I haven't been using my ears for many years. Years of ears, dude.
Here's the problem. You get people teaching things poorly. Sometimes people teach things that just aren't true. I remember a good player saying he used all arm and almost no wrist, but when I watched him play something on half-speed video, it was all wrist. Someone told me reels are straight, then I realize they're generally not, they're just swung less. A friend once told a group of people that an EBE chord wasn't an E minor, like so many had been told. "It's an E major," he said. Great players don't always have the ability to analyze what they're doing, how they got there, and how to pass that information along to others.
Just look at what happens with rolls. Look at all the absolutely unclear advice out there for how to play a roll on a flute. Grey Larsen comes along and actually figures out how to teach, explain, and write a roll so that people get it.
I bet when folks in Ireland first started listening to those old 78s of Michael Coleman, somebody figured out how to slow the record player down so they could get at those notes. Jazz players very early on figured out how to learn from slowed down player pianos.
Some of the great playing we hear is too fast for the beginner/intermediate to digest. Since we can't all live in a major Irish session hotbed, we've got to simulate Paddy sitting down with us knee to knee and showing us some tunes. (Granted, it's just as important to be able to pick up something when it's being played fast. Both skills are important.)
Fast is good, Slow is good. Computers can be quite helpful. Where would this forum be without computers? Oh, yeah, that's right, we'd all be playing instead of talking about it. Got me there. But in general.
Well at least I had a chance to check out your site.
Too true; there is an art to playing & an art to teaching.
One does not guarantee the other.
Grey Larsen is one of the best instructors you will ever meet.
I think he listens.
Thanks for the clip of "My Darling Asleep"
I have played that jig every single day for the last 2 months.
Paddy Glackin's fiddle was fun to play along with (full speed version). Yeah . . . our fiddler jumped ship. So the clip is much appreciated. It's O.K. though. We had a fiddler last week & I hope he returns.
Other than that & just reading back over the mystery thread.
This bit may have a good math ratio for going about your detective work.
"In my experience in the long term, I learned more with a regime of 90%
listening and 10% with asking questions & consciously analysing technique.
I realise this may be harder to do if you do not surrounded by a good
number of active musicans playing the style you like but the only
alternative in that scenario is to give up, which in everybody's case would
be a disaster."
Caoimhin Mac Aoidh
Stephen - sometimes (usually?) an active-looking wrist is misleading.
What you may have seen is a loose wrist that's reacting to a
short arm stroke. You can get a nice 'whipping' effect that way with a crisp attack. Disclaimer: I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't
found wrist-driven bowing to be very useful.
Just in the same way that being a great player is not really of much help when it comes to teaching, knowing the minutiae of how something is done is not really much help when it comes to actually doing it.
This music is a good example. You can deconstruct it as much as you like, slow it down, analyse wave forms, watch slowed down videos, talk about it endlessly, but non of that is really gonna be much help. Being able to measure the minutiae of the timing, to the millisecond is of no help at all. Your brain can not consciously process such information and transfer it to muscle control.
Compare it to learning to catch a ball. Would someone sitting down for a day and analysing how to do it with slow-motion footage of the best ball catchers in the world be better than someone who merely practised for a day?
"Keep your eye on the ball" is all the teaching you need. Someone trying to learn how to do it by watching videos might concentrate too much on the position of their hands and fingers, maybe even watch their fingers to make sure they are right, and miss the fundamental of keeping their eye on the ball.
"Keep your ear on the music" is all the teaching you need. Someone trying to learn how to do it by watching videos might concentrate too much on the position of their hands and fingers, maybe even watch their fingers to make sure they are right, and miss the fundamental of keeping their ear on the music.
Hi random. Answering your points. I wasn't quoting Michael but I don't think I was misunderstanding what he said. Audacity does not contradict it. It supports it. And challenges me to re-reasses my understanding of what I am hearing. And to be cautious about how other people describe what they are hearing.
My experience is that turning sound into pictures rapidly answers some questions that words (for example here) often give contradictory answers to.
Its hard to describe sounds, and hard to describe pictures, so as you have a computer handy, and access to the internet why not download Audacity, load a clip of solo fiddle and have a look. Flip between viewing the waveform, which shows how the volume changes in time and so shows the dynamics and the spectrum plot which shows how the pitches present change in time so shows when fingers move, strings are crossed and the bow changes direction (the latter very clearly). Then listen to that section.
Its just a tool, but shows more than the dots and many words. How many times do people come here and ask about the note lengths jigs. No need. Just look. And see how it varies through the tune. What's meant by "hard - soft - slightly hard hard - soft - slightly hard" (from above) - find an example, listen and look.
No it can't show phrasing or things like that lazy underlying roll that some tunes have. But the 'over the bar line stuff" often shows better than any notation could.
Just a tool. (metronome clicks show very nicely as well but I won't go there)
I'm not going to dig around on the web for the references but I think it is well established that watching someone do something that involves motor skills can help in learning them. And I think they have found that the bits of our brain that work when doing something light up on the scans when we watch it being done.
So watching really good snowboarders has no effect on your style Michael ? Less than doing it I guess. But none ?
The timing is deconstructing the words, not the sounds.
I think there's an important distinction that I didn't make clear, or overlooked. It's the analysis of the minutiae that I'm saying doesn't help. Yes, watching a good snowboarder helps immensely, especially if you can follow them down the hill. Seeing how and where they carve.
But watching a video in slow motion and freeze-framing it and getting out your protractor and measuring the angle of the knees to the hips and estimating the relationship of the centre of gravity to the edge of the board etc etc really isn't going to help in the least.
Yes, I've read that thing about the bits of our brain that work when doing something light up on the scans when we watch it being done. But I won't have it that the bits of your brain that play music light up when you look at a graph.
I think snowboarding and getting a good rhythm in your reels is a good analogy. I remember when I was new to snowboarding making these big wide turns, having to jump from edge to edge, huge zig zags down the hill, favouring my heels. Some one gave me the advice to just point the bloody thing down the hill. It's terrifying at first, but it's the only way to get it. That smooth carving, the lack of effort is the key.
A lot of people who first try to play reels end up exaggerating the swing horribly. They need to just point the rhythm down the hill (it doesn't have to be a steep hill) and they'll have no option to learn to control it and enjoy it with the lack of effort that is so vital.
I'm happy to take your point Michael that examining the minutiae doesn't help the playing. I think it helps me understand what I am hearing (which may not be neccessary) and certainly what people are saying.
Grey Larsen was mentioned above. I am not sure he really was the first person to make the point about ornamaments/articulations. That, for example, a roll is just three notes but he certainly stresses it. In his book he says how teachers and tutor books had referred to them as grace notes and notated them as if they had time that they took from somewhere. He uses a to sketch outline how the the cuts and taps should dissapear as perceived pitch as they get better. And sound clips.
Having a look at the trace of those sound clips was a better illustration than his sketch. And doing the same to the clips that were pointed to in the recent "concertina rolls" discussion made some peoples confusion in that discussion look even sillier. Listen, look at the trace, thats whats happening, fine, whats the fuss.
I suspect that a high level in some sports they do the freeze-frame protractor bit to improve training. Same a someone writing a tutor book listening very hard and getting it straight before giving advice (Mr Molloy's quote on the back Larsen's book mentions his "research, patience and diligence")
Never been on a snowboard, the idea of having my feet fastened together gives me the creeps. But I used to ski and thinking about it still makes by legs twitch. Started by reading a book then being tipped down icy red runs by my mates. Seemed to work. When I did have lessons the instructor said "fine, follow me".
But I'm not at work so I could have spent the last 15 minutes practicing...
Michael
You know, snowboarding [I presume?] is a lot like backcountry telemark skiing in the way you describe it and I know when I learned to telemark way back when in 1980 or so. [Hardly anyone was doing it here in North America at the time ...it was only a small coterie of xcounty/backcountry enthusiasts who were resurrecting it...people out west etc. ]
If snowboarding is like telemark skiing the trick is to basically as you say, launch yourself. You go down hill *straight through* but the 'turns' -- as in reels perhaps on the beat? -- are what adds the gracefulness and the rhthym to the flow of the descent...or perhaps the flow of the reel? Could be you hit the "turns" in telemarking perhaps in the same way you hit them in reels...the result in telemark skiing at least is indeed a pulse...you're carving!!...and when you're carving everthing falls together in one continues snaky sinuous line. And there's nothing nicer after a 1000 ft descent in powder to gaze up and those wonderful S turns you just put on the face of all that pristine powder. Maybe it's the same making music. I'm not quite at that stage yet so I can't say. But if the analogy works ...hm. Interesting.
just a thought.
I can say though that I did watch videos of amazing skiiers [those were early days of VHS]...none of it helped. The only thing that helped was strapping on the skiis and spending days on the hill and in the backcountry skiing between trees, falling down, getting up and then one day it just happens. And you're there. Like riding a bike, you never look back and can throw out all the videos.
Yep, that sounds about right. It's about carving a tune. If you don't hit the turns nice and smoothly it all becomes to jerky and ungraceful, and if you don't put any turns in, it will just race away from you. And you know when you've got it, because there is no tension or effort.
Well, we only got a couple of weeks skiing a year and used to get together beforehand to watch videos (and drink). And I think it did get those nerve cells geared up in some way. You can watch a video of skiing and not feel the turns ?
But I guess the equivalent would be listening so nothing to disagree about. Can't watch those hunched up flute players though however good they sound. Relaxed looking ones yes; I try and feel the way they look as if they feel.
(sorry we are off topic Stephen. I think I started it)
You would think this website would have me excited about going to session tonight. But instead it makes me want to stream out my best fnords, pack up my skis, & hit the hills.
Cheers mates!
;)
I use my ears. I hear things that don't jive with what people are telling me. I get out the computer. I confirm my ears are right. The people, who are saying things that don't jive with my ears or computer, launch into how I should use my ears and stop using the computer?!?!?
I guess the point is some players are good at playing and quite confusing and unhelpful with their description of what they're doing and/or what I should be doing. I'll stick with my ears.
Seriously, we should can all this forum business and figure out how to play together more often! (Kinda just kidding.)
Swing Mystery
Swing Mystery
I hear swing when others don't. I'm trying to make sure I'm not losing my mind. Here's my two big question:
1) Are complete straight reels, absolutely no swing, exclusive to modern tune bands and beginners?
2) Did any well respected Irish traditional musicians ever play a jig completely straight without any lengthening of the first note of every three? (Beats one and four?)
You often hear it said that reels are straight and hornpipes are swung. I've compared many reels and hornpipes from Clare FM using Transcribe!, software for slowing down the music, seeing the waveforms, and more. When I slow down the tunes to 25%, I clearly hear that both reels and hornpipes are swung. My current generalization is that reels are played with a subtle swing and hornpipes are played with a heavy swing. You can see it it the waveforms. In many, many Irish sessions in the U.S., the reels are played so straight it makes every tune sound like a machine gun going off. (Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat)
Jigs at most sessions in the U.S. seem to played in this same rigid, straight way. (Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat) Ends up sounding like a midi file. In Jig playing, I hear anywhere from a subtle extension of the notes on the first and fourth beat of each measure to a pretty noticeable extension. I call this swing. Some jig recordings might sound straight but when I slow them down 25%, the truth comes out. It seems there's always at least a subtle swing.
Irish midi files on the net are hard to listen to because there's no swing. Just about all midi sequencer software allows you to add degrees of swing. What gives? It's the same thing with Southern American Old-Time tunes. There are degrees of swing. I've heard it as well in African music.
Would someone please straighten me out? (Pardon the pun...)
(Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat)
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
music swings. that's why it's music
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
Don't you think you ought to maybe state it more like "at most sessions in the U.S. *that I've been to*..."? Otherwise it's a rather sweeping statement that might give people the wrong idea. I haven't been to many sessions that play things real straight and midi-like....
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Swing Mystery
swing is a more subtle thing than can be analysed with computer software. For a start, the amount of swing will vary from note to note, deliberatly, as part of a musicians phrasing. Also, by giving a note a bit more attack, this can have the aural effect of bringing it forward, and vice versa.
And what makes a tune a reel or a hornpipe is not dependent on the swing, it's the tune itself, like wise with jigs and slides. Sure you can distort a reel into a hornpipe and a jig slide into a jig, but the essence of the forms is in the phasing of the tunes, not any artificial mean measurement.
It don't mean a thang if it ain't got that twang.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Swing Mystery
"In many, many Irish sessions in the U.S the reels are played so straight..."
"Jigs at most sessions in the U.S.... "
Stephen,
I'd say you need to get to different sessions that's all. "Tis the swing that lulls one to the great places. Ears were invented long before computers, trust them.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by ejsant
Re: Swing Mystery
Reverend, you are right. Instead of saying "at most sessions in the U.S.," I should say, "at many of the sessions I've been to in the U.S." I've certainly heard some grand playing in various U.S. cities and wouldn't want to imply that America can't swing. There is that matter of Jazz. lol
I've always heard good Irish players urge new players to listen, listen, listen. "The real music can't be got with a piece of paper." "The rhythm is where it's at. Listen to good, traditional playing." "People will know if you've put in the time by your rhythm."
If this is such a big deal, and I believe it is, a website with short excepts from great players would really help. The FACTS of the rhythm can be revealed by slowing down the examples and showing things graphically.
How about irishrhythm.org? Hit 'em hard and fast? It could start with the subtle differences in how great players have played reels, hornpipes, and jigs throughout different times and places. Later on, other aspects of rhythm could be covered, like the way some players cram a roll while others play rolls very straight. I know I've got a lot to learn. Any ideas?
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Ed, thanks for the "Tis the swing that lulls one to the great places." Tis a good quote!
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
1) Are complete straight reels, absolutely no swing, exclusive to modern tune bands and beginners?
2) Did any well respected Irish traditional musicians ever play a jig completely straight without any lengthening of the first note of every three? (Beats one and four?)
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
I have to admit, I'm a bit confused with this idea of "swing" in reels and jigs... when I think of swing, I think of obvious syncopation (like what you would hear in 50's *swing* music)which is not evident (at least to me - someone please correct me if I'm wrong) in jigs and reels. And I certainly don't play the tunes with that kind of syncopation. I do, however, emphasize certain notes slightly more than others which, as Llig pointed out, can sound like it's being brought forward.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by jsmith
Re: Swing Mystery
stephen....see Llig's et al's comments on beats in reel patterns from last week:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19996
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Swing Mystery
see kweeveen's comments too on jigs:
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:10:36 -0000
Reply-To: Irish Traditional Music List <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Irish Traditional Music List <[log in to unmask]>
From: Caoimhin MacAoidh <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Bowing & accents in Jigs
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I posted this message on the fiddle list in respect of a discussion taking
place on learning bowing & general playing of jigs. As it has a wider
connotation than just fiddling, I thought it might be of interest on this
list.
Caoimhin
I think there are two areas to consider in this discussion:
1 The theory & its associated technique;
2 The aim or what you are trying to achieve
In Irish-style jig playing there are three primary accent patterns:
1 An Even pattern, for example:
even - even - even even - even - even
In this case, each note of the six notes / bar gets the same stress.
Writers on the Irish styles (myself included) generalise that the Donegal
genius John Doherty played an attacking, staccatto bow style with even
stress on the six notes. Put simply, this is ok as a generalisation but the
true fact is when you listen to John's jig playing he does inject a rhythm
by playing:
slightly hard - even - even slightly hard - even - even
2 A Standard pattern:
hard - soft -soft hard - soft - soft
This results in a strong rhythm and is the most typical stress pattern
played in Irish jig playing. In the mid-70s Paddy Glackin (I strongly
recommend regular and frequent exposure to his playing) impressed on me to
single bow jigs. This has worked well for me. Paddy is teaching a master
class in County Down in a week's time and I'd bet my great granfather's
gold watch he will be stressing the same pattern of bowing - in general
(see comments below).
3 A more intricate pattern:
hard - soft - slightly hard hard - soft - slightly hard
This pattern gives a great lift in the music. The extra emphasis on the
third note provides a great pulse once you ensure the third note accent is
never strong enough to clash with the fully stressed fourth note which
follows.
That's the theory and in practice all of these patterns are played by Irish
fiddlers.
As for part 2, this is where I think there may be more answers to your
query. There are no rules in Irish fiddle playing, in my opinion. There are
guidelines, which are general. Everything that you do should be aimed at
producing a sound you like. Don't let the technique drive you too much.
More often than not, people fail to realise that listening, both casual and
concentrated is practise in itslef. You will absorb the sound of the music
and eventually things like accent stresses will develop in your playing.
You should be aiming to have fun with your music and playing. Don't let
rules and "Laws" be overbearing on you.
For example, I was greatly helped by following a single bowing pattern in
my jig playing from an early stage, primarily as it suited the style I'm
passionate about - Donegal fiddle playing. There are passages which are
slurred in jigs however. I slur them. Paddy Glackin will slur them
etc.though we both (I suspect) agree single bowing patterns are an
advantage (ie an advantage and not a law)! Other players slur quite a bit.
Listen to Kevin Burke's audio tutor tapes on the Homespun label and he'll
even talk you through it and tell you why he likes to slur a certain
passage in the jigs he teaches.
I am currently completing the editing of the Sliabh Luachra master, Padraig
O'Caoimh's (O'Keefee) manuscripts for publication. Padraig wrote out almost
1,000 tunes each complete with full bowing. His jigs show a number of
different patterns depending on the tune and note sequence. The only law he
used was start on a down bow as gravity makes the draw on the string harder
and helps to accent the first note.
I think you can see my argument now that bowing (not only in jigs) is
CONTINGENT - based on what the particular note sequences are (where they
are located on the strings) and how they sound. There are NO LAWS. There
are general guidances (such as for me single bowing) which will depend on
the style you want to play. Take this one step further. I outlined 3 rhythm
patterns. There is no law which says when you start a tune with one pattern
you must stick with it until you're done playing the tune. You can, and
sometimes are well advised (because the result is good, fun music) to
switch between the different accent patterns.
To develop style, listen intensely to that whic fires your imagination
(even very simple styles have brilliant attractions- they all don't have to
have pyrotechnics!). It will get into your mind exactly as your speech did.
You don't actually think "will I say toe-mate-o or will I say toe-mot-o"
when you want to use the word. You just say it in your natural accent. Your
music will ultimately have the accent reflective of your listening
concentration. You will instinctively seek out the sounds in your playing.
You will not think slur or staccatto. It will take some time, but think of
all the enjoyment you'll get along the way.
Toby Rider's communication reflects this process. He's obviously feeling
around for sounds, not slaving to technique.
In my experience in the long term, I learned more with a regime of 90%
listening and 10% with asking questions & consciously analysing technique.
I realise this may be harder to do if you do not surrounded by a good
number of active musicans playing the style you like but the only
alternative in that scenario is to give up, which in everybody's case would
be a disaster.
I hope this is of some help.
Adh mor,
Caoimhin Mac Aoidh
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Swing Mystery
There are lots of types of syncopation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopated
I think this discussion is talking about the subtle variations in emphasis that give ITM its flavour
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by greg sheils
Re: Swing Mystery
Syncopation and swing are two completely different things.
"syncopation. Device used by composers in order to vary position of the stress on notes so as to avoid regular rhythm. Syncopation is achieved by accenting a weak instead of a strong beat, by putting rests on strong beats, by holding on over strong beats, and by introducing a sudden change of time-signature. First used at time of ars nova, and exploited to fullest capabilities by jazz musicians, often in improvisation. Stravinsky, Bartók, etc. also employ syncopation with dramatic effect." - Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, 4th edition
"Syncopation - The regular shifting of each beat in a measured pattern by the same amount ahead of or behind its normal position in that pattern" - THE GROVE CONCISE DICTIONARY OF MUSIC
"Swing or shuffle rhythm - a rhythmic style, unique to jazz [UNIQUE TO JAZZ?!?!?], in which the first of a pair of written quavers (eighth notes) is played longer than the second, even twice as long, while the second tends to receive a slight accent, though the distribution of accents is irregular and syncopated. The degree of this effect depends on the overall tempo, and is modified by the requirements of expression and phrasing" - http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss5.htm
By the way, at least one major music dictionary didn't seem to know what it meant to "swing your eighths." Most of them talk like swing is something only found in Jazz. How many symphonic orchestras do you know where the conductor asks "please swing the sixteenths" and they can actually do it. "Not a heavy swing," he asks and they adjust.
Swing your eighths - in 4/4, the first eighth of every beat is slightly elongated while the ANDs start a little later, their length being shortened. How much the first eighth of every beat is lengthened is described as the degree of swing. It usually can't be described as dotted. That's giving it too much length. It's somewhere between straight and dotted. Imagine the eighths on the ANDs of each beat are hanging from a rope. Imagine those eights all SWINGING to the right. You can swing groups of three eight-notes as well. Lengthen the first and shorten the second.
A good player can vary their degree of swing from beat to beat. Different players in the same band on the same tune, while generally hanging together, can function with different degrees of swing. Just listen to Farewell To Erin from the Bothy Band's OLD HAG YOU HAVE KILLED ME.
You can actually swing all kinds of things and I've never really read a good description of any of this. Don't think of just the dots on the paper, it's about the underlying beat; that loose or tight grid that guides the pattern of lengthening and shortening of notes.
You CAN'T just pay attention to the rhythm of the audible notes. You MUST be in touch with the fundamental, underlying pulse of the music. Whether I'm playing a jig on my instrument or not, I still feel the fundamental rhythm.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
stephen
as Llig has mentioned in previous thread link above...the 'across the bar' thing is really important to achieving that inner pulse or nyah.
In point 2 of your opener...what you "may" hear as a long first note in a jig could well be also the effect of slurring from note 6 to 1....ie, across the bar. it's also nice to slur 3 to 4...across the phrase....you'll hear both patterns in good players.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Swing Mystery
Another member posted a link to this a few weeks ago and it resulted in an interesting discussion of swing.
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_4_hornpipes/
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
"...the 'across the bar' thing is really important to achieving that inner pulse...what you "may" hear as a long first note in a jig could well be also the effect of slurring from note 6 to 1..." - mtodd
I appreciate the idea of 'across the bar' but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm primarily talking about the underlying pulse of the music where, in 6/8, the first and fourth beat of each measure is lengthened, cutting short the second and fifth. It's the underlying rhythm I feel whether I'm making a sound or not; holding or tying a note over from beat six to one or not. Playing whistle, even if I sit out 8 measures to showcase the fiddle, I'm still feeling this swing in the foundational rhythm of the jig.
The across the bar thing, or similar effects achieved by tying notes, creates syncopation and I LOVE that.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
MacDarra O Reilly - Surely the Benny Goodman of the fiddle.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Swing Mystery
"...what you "may" hear as a long first note in a jig could well be also the effect of slurring from note 6 to 1...." - mtodd
I understand the idea of holding a note into another beat, especially across the bar, but that's not what I'm talking about. That's how I create syncopation.
I'm talking about the underlying, foundational pulse of the music that can include varying degrees of swing or not. I feel this whether I'm playing or not. In the case of the jig, it's the lengthening of the first and fourth beat of each measure by different degrees even in the same performance.
Listening to http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_4_hornpipes/, I can hear how he uses different degrees of swing on the eighth-notes. He goes from almost straight to heavy swing and back and forth.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Sorry for the double reply. Proof I AM crazy! ;)
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Stephen. Have a look at the timing of those eighth-notes in the hornpipe clip in your software. I did and was surprised, even though I had been told what was going on.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
I'm sure someone will call me a loony nerd for doing this, but I charted out four measures to show exactly how long the eighth-notes along with the waveform. I'll blame it on david_h.
Have a look - http://stephenseifert.com/hornpipe.pdf
From the PDF: "MacDarra Ó Raghallaigh on Fiddle - The Hornpipe “An Sean Bhean Bhocht” - http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_4_hornpipes/ - This is the first four measures of the repeat of the first A-part. The numbered boxes label the beats. The numbered green arrows mark the occurrence of each note. Each red box shows the length of the eighth-notes that fall on the beat. Each green box shows the length of the eighth-notes that fall on the AND of the beat.
The swing is pretty subtle most of the time. Nothing is really dotted like all the books say. The eighth-note pairs are sometimes near straight. There’s a couple of times where the first eighth-note of a pair is shorter than the second. Check out what happens with the Treble. The AND of that beat occurs quite late. The treble is somewhere between (two sixteenths and an eighth) and a triplet.
I realize some of this may not be intentional on the player’s part, but looking at the rest of the piece, these type of things happen consistently and I believe it’s all part of the style of a good player. I believe the very best of players are doing these things all the time.
The underlying pulses of the music BREATH and are ELASTIC. (The foot stomp on ONE. The grid of eighths. The actual melody. The ornaments.) I think good players internalize the beat on MANY nested levels quite unconsciously, some consciously. It’s beautiful music, really."
I realize each player is a little different. I read in another thread that this fellow doesn't swing as much as some.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
mtodd - Thanks for that interesting quote from Caoimhin Mac Aoidh. What Stephen's two questions immediately made me think of was the playing of Johnny Doherty, which is about the closest I have heard to absolutely 'straight' playing - I don't know how typical this is (or was - perhaps more so now, due to Doherty's own influence) of Donegal fiddling. No doubt there are subtle accents in his playing, as Caoimhin suggests - he certainly played great music, with or without 'swing'. But I can remember hearing him for the first time and being unable to fathom whether what he was playing was a jig or a reel, so even were his notes.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Swing Mystery
you're most welcome ragaman. i thought it was a good one and had saved it. Interesting what you say about Doherty. !
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Swing Mystery
Happy to take the blame. I'm new at this but an experienced nerd. When I have trouble tying up the what I hear and the words I that read I resort to technology. My technique is to load it into Audacity and look and the 'spectrum' plot rather than the default of 'waveform'. For solo fiddle the note lengths become very visible and measureable.
What struck me was that I was told it was straight, but it sounded really 'hornpipey' (and not just to me) . I was amazed at just how even in length most of the eighth-notes next to other eighth-notes were (I'll keep the bar lines out of it). So I think my ear is fooled by what llig mentions above - an apparent uneven division of the beat that is coming from dynamics not 'dottedness'.
It seems as if many people do refer to that as 'swing' in ITM. How does it compare with Benny Goodman ?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
stephen ~
I've always heard good Irish players urge new players to listen, listen, listen. "The real music can't be got with a piece of paper."
& then you go looking for every visual aid imaginable. Do you spend much time contemplating what music looks like?
Seems the subtle bits you are asking about are more immediately audible than they are visual.
The reason I ask is because I recently had a procedure done on my eyes. While I was awaiting the operation my ears served me better than I might have imagined. I'm gonna use them.
BTW the eyes are now 20 -20!
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
does the waveform show these;
attack, accent, rest, slide, slur, &/or phrase?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
*
what is a spectrum plot?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
**
I cannot find where Michael describes;
" . . .an apparent uneven division of the beat that is coming from dynamics not 'dottedness"
but I fail to understand how Audacity is contradicting what Michael says about dynamics. Does the spectrum plot show note length but not let's say attack? What is it removing?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
Speaking of Paddy Glackin, I've heard him play both 'straight' and
'swung' hornpipes with two different pipers. Paddy Keenan was
the swinging one and I don't recall the other - was broadcast on TG4
not too long ago. He might be my favourite fiddler for today,
but I find something to like in almost every fiddler I've heard --
even Kevin Burke
He doesn't play 100% single-bowed jigs by the way - there's just a lot
of single bowing in them.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Hup
Re: Swing Mystery
You're not thinking of Liam O'Flynn are you?
Anyway I found a good discussion from years past w/Dow & Michael discussing Irish hornpipes, seppuku, & Frankie Gavin's playing w/Paul Brock. It is a classic;
"How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]"
October 9th 2004 by fiddlinviolinin
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4666
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
Stephen -
All the people saying "across the bar" - what I think they're trying to get across is when you minimize by making beats 2 and 5 soft or late you emphasize the feeling of the terminal eight note in a beat pushing into the main beat. They're not really disagreeing with you or insisting on synchopation.
Paddy Glackin's name is all over this thread - listen to "In Full Spate" for some great examples of rock solid straight eighth notes in jigs that still have great feeling. Or listen to other things he's recorded for other options. He's a fiddler I *always* recommend to students interested in this particular issue.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Swing Mystery
there are many ways you can play across the bar. Making the tune play straight through the end and back into the beginning in a single phrase is the sublime classic example. And in the ensemble playing of a really good small session, it's the best way yo set up the playing of a tune for the forth time, if you fancy it. If someone drives right through the end and back in, you have to follow.
But the most common use of playing through the bar line is where the start of a tune has a couple of notes before the down beat of the first bar. And so the repeat a couple of notes before the end of the bar.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Swing Mystery
"I hear swing when others don't."
Do you also see dead people?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Swing Mystery
There are probably lots of dead people in the , "many Irish sessions " where, "the reels are played so straight . . ."
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
I see the fnords.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
O. K. ~ you began w/swing so swing it shall be.
What is the mystery?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
I just listened to Paddy Glackin and Paddy Keenan - My Darling Asleep / Garrett Barry's Jig from http://www.irishfiddle.com/glackin.html. It's not a heavy swing but it's there for sure. I exported a half-speed version. Have a listen:
http://stephenseifert.com/glackin and keenan half speed.wav
Which Paddy is which? The one in my right ear is a tad straighter than the one in my left.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Random_notes writes, "does the waveform show these;
attack, accent, rest, slide, slur, &/or phrase?"
Yes, it shows clues about all these except phrasing. Phrasing isn't so obvious. That's better heard and felt. By the way, just because I'm slowing something down with a computer doesn't mean I haven't been using my ears for many years. Years of ears, dude.
Here's the problem. You get people teaching things poorly. Sometimes people teach things that just aren't true. I remember a good player saying he used all arm and almost no wrist, but when I watched him play something on half-speed video, it was all wrist. Someone told me reels are straight, then I realize they're generally not, they're just swung less. A friend once told a group of people that an EBE chord wasn't an E minor, like so many had been told. "It's an E major," he said. Great players don't always have the ability to analyze what they're doing, how they got there, and how to pass that information along to others.
Just look at what happens with rolls. Look at all the absolutely unclear advice out there for how to play a roll on a flute. Grey Larsen comes along and actually figures out how to teach, explain, and write a roll so that people get it.
I bet when folks in Ireland first started listening to those old 78s of Michael Coleman, somebody figured out how to slow the record player down so they could get at those notes. Jazz players very early on figured out how to learn from slowed down player pianos.
Some of the great playing we hear is too fast for the beginner/intermediate to digest. Since we can't all live in a major Irish session hotbed, we've got to simulate Paddy sitting down with us knee to knee and showing us some tunes. (Granted, it's just as important to be able to pick up something when it's being played fast. Both skills are important.)
Fast is good, Slow is good. Computers can be quite helpful. Where would this forum be without computers? Oh, yeah, that's right, we'd all be playing instead of talking about it. Got me there. But in general.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Here's that half-speed jig:
http://stephenseifert.com/glackin and keenan half speed.wav
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Sorry. That one was bad. Try http://stephenseifert.com/glackin_keenan_half_speed.wav.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Well at least I had a chance to check out your site.
Too true; there is an art to playing & an art to teaching.
One does not guarantee the other.
Grey Larsen is one of the best instructors you will ever meet.
I think he listens.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
Thanks for the clip of "My Darling Asleep"
I have played that jig every single day for the last 2 months.
Paddy Glackin's fiddle was fun to play along with (full speed version). Yeah . . . our fiddler jumped ship. So the clip is much appreciated. It's O.K. though. We had a fiddler last week & I hope he returns.
Other than that & just reading back over the mystery thread.
This bit may have a good math ratio for going about your detective work.
"In my experience in the long term, I learned more with a regime of 90%
listening and 10% with asking questions & consciously analysing technique.
I realise this may be harder to do if you do not surrounded by a good
number of active musicans playing the style you like but the only
alternative in that scenario is to give up, which in everybody's case would
be a disaster."
Caoimhin Mac Aoidh
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
Stephen - sometimes (usually?) an active-looking wrist is misleading.
What you may have seen is a loose wrist that's reacting to a
short arm stroke. You can get a nice 'whipping' effect that way with a crisp attack. Disclaimer: I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't
found wrist-driven bowing to be very useful.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Hup
Re: Swing Mystery
Sorry, was talking about strumming.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing Mystery
Just in the same way that being a great player is not really of much help when it comes to teaching, knowing the minutiae of how something is done is not really much help when it comes to actually doing it.
This music is a good example. You can deconstruct it as much as you like, slow it down, analyse wave forms, watch slowed down videos, talk about it endlessly, but non of that is really gonna be much help. Being able to measure the minutiae of the timing, to the millisecond is of no help at all. Your brain can not consciously process such information and transfer it to muscle control.
Compare it to learning to catch a ball. Would someone sitting down for a day and analysing how to do it with slow-motion footage of the best ball catchers in the world be better than someone who merely practised for a day?
"Keep your eye on the ball" is all the teaching you need. Someone trying to learn how to do it by watching videos might concentrate too much on the position of their hands and fingers, maybe even watch their fingers to make sure they are right, and miss the fundamental of keeping their eye on the ball.
"Keep your ear on the music" is all the teaching you need. Someone trying to learn how to do it by watching videos might concentrate too much on the position of their hands and fingers, maybe even watch their fingers to make sure they are right, and miss the fundamental of keeping their ear on the music.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Swing Mystery
Hi random. Answering your points. I wasn't quoting Michael but I don't think I was misunderstanding what he said. Audacity does not contradict it. It supports it. And challenges me to re-reasses my understanding of what I am hearing. And to be cautious about how other people describe what they are hearing.
My experience is that turning sound into pictures rapidly answers some questions that words (for example here) often give contradictory answers to.
Its hard to describe sounds, and hard to describe pictures, so as you have a computer handy, and access to the internet why not download Audacity, load a clip of solo fiddle and have a look. Flip between viewing the waveform, which shows how the volume changes in time and so shows the dynamics and the spectrum plot which shows how the pitches present change in time so shows when fingers move, strings are crossed and the bow changes direction (the latter very clearly). Then listen to that section.
Its just a tool, but shows more than the dots and many words. How many times do people come here and ask about the note lengths jigs. No need. Just look. And see how it varies through the tune. What's meant by "hard - soft - slightly hard hard - soft - slightly hard" (from above) - find an example, listen and look.
No it can't show phrasing or things like that lazy underlying roll that some tunes have. But the 'over the bar line stuff" often shows better than any notation could.
Just a tool. (metronome clicks show very nicely as well but I won't go there)
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
I'm not going to dig around on the web for the references but I think it is well established that watching someone do something that involves motor skills can help in learning them. And I think they have found that the bits of our brain that work when doing something light up on the scans when we watch it being done.
So watching really good snowboarders has no effect on your style Michael ? Less than doing it I guess. But none ?
The timing is deconstructing the words, not the sounds.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
Sorry, should have said that the first of those two crossed. Just occured to me that the timing is sort of deconstructing the dots as well.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
I think there's an important distinction that I didn't make clear, or overlooked. It's the analysis of the minutiae that I'm saying doesn't help. Yes, watching a good snowboarder helps immensely, especially if you can follow them down the hill. Seeing how and where they carve.
But watching a video in slow motion and freeze-framing it and getting out your protractor and measuring the angle of the knees to the hips and estimating the relationship of the centre of gravity to the edge of the board etc etc really isn't going to help in the least.
Yes, I've read that thing about the bits of our brain that work when doing something light up on the scans when we watch it being done. But I won't have it that the bits of your brain that play music light up when you look at a graph.
I think snowboarding and getting a good rhythm in your reels is a good analogy. I remember when I was new to snowboarding making these big wide turns, having to jump from edge to edge, huge zig zags down the hill, favouring my heels. Some one gave me the advice to just point the bloody thing down the hill. It's terrifying at first, but it's the only way to get it. That smooth carving, the lack of effort is the key.
A lot of people who first try to play reels end up exaggerating the swing horribly. They need to just point the rhythm down the hill (it doesn't have to be a steep hill) and they'll have no option to learn to control it and enjoy it with the lack of effort that is so vital.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Swing Mystery
I'm happy to take your point Michael that examining the minutiae doesn't help the playing. I think it helps me understand what I am hearing (which may not be neccessary) and certainly what people are saying.
Grey Larsen was mentioned above. I am not sure he really was the first person to make the point about ornamaments/articulations. That, for example, a roll is just three notes but he certainly stresses it. In his book he says how teachers and tutor books had referred to them as grace notes and notated them as if they had time that they took from somewhere. He uses a to sketch outline how the the cuts and taps should dissapear as perceived pitch as they get better. And sound clips.
Having a look at the trace of those sound clips was a better illustration than his sketch. And doing the same to the clips that were pointed to in the recent "concertina rolls" discussion made some peoples confusion in that discussion look even sillier. Listen, look at the trace, thats whats happening, fine, whats the fuss.
I suspect that a high level in some sports they do the freeze-frame protractor bit to improve training. Same a someone writing a tutor book listening very hard and getting it straight before giving advice (Mr Molloy's quote on the back Larsen's book mentions his "research, patience and diligence")
Never been on a snowboard, the idea of having my feet fastened together gives me the creeps. But I used to ski and thinking about it still makes by legs twitch. Started by reading a book then being tipped down icy red runs by my mates. Seemed to work. When I did have lessons the instructor said "fine, follow me".
But I'm not at work so I could have spent the last 15 minutes practicing...
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
Michael
You know, snowboarding [I presume?] is a lot like backcountry telemark skiing in the way you describe it and I know when I learned to telemark way back when in 1980 or so. [Hardly anyone was doing it here in North America at the time ...it was only a small coterie of xcounty/backcountry enthusiasts who were resurrecting it...people out west etc. ]
If snowboarding is like telemark skiing the trick is to basically as you say, launch yourself. You go down hill *straight through* but the 'turns' -- as in reels perhaps on the beat? -- are what adds the gracefulness and the rhthym to the flow of the descent...or perhaps the flow of the reel? Could be you hit the "turns" in telemarking perhaps in the same way you hit them in reels...the result in telemark skiing at least is indeed a pulse...you're carving!!...and when you're carving everthing falls together in one continues snaky sinuous line. And there's nothing nicer after a 1000 ft descent in powder to gaze up and those wonderful S turns you just put on the face of all that pristine powder. Maybe it's the same making music. I'm not quite at that stage yet so I can't say. But if the analogy works ...hm. Interesting.
just a thought.
I can say though that I did watch videos of amazing skiiers [those were early days of VHS]...none of it helped. The only thing that helped was strapping on the skiis and spending days on the hill and in the backcountry skiing between trees, falling down, getting up and then one day it just happens. And you're there. Like riding a bike, you never look back and can throw out all the videos.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Swing Mystery
I think you're seeing too many fnords, Stephen. You should listen to them instead.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Swing Mystery
Yep, that sounds about right. It's about carving a tune. If you don't hit the turns nice and smoothly it all becomes to jerky and ungraceful, and if you don't put any turns in, it will just race away from you. And you know when you've got it, because there is no tension or effort.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Swing Mystery
Well, we only got a couple of weeks skiing a year and used to get together beforehand to watch videos (and drink). And I think it did get those nerve cells geared up in some way. You can watch a video of skiing and not feel the turns ?
But I guess the equivalent would be listening so nothing to disagree about. Can't watch those hunched up flute players though however good they sound. Relaxed looking ones yes; I try and feel the way they look as if they feel.
(sorry we are off topic Stephen. I think I started it)
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by David50
Re: Swing Mystery
You would think this website would have me excited about going to session tonight. But instead it makes me want to stream out my best fnords, pack up my skis, & hit the hills.
Cheers mates!
;)
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Swing Mystery
I use my ears. I hear things that don't jive with what people are telling me. I get out the computer. I confirm my ears are right. The people, who are saying things that don't jive with my ears or computer, launch into how I should use my ears and stop using the computer?!?!?
I guess the point is some players are good at playing and quite confusing and unhelpful with their description of what they're doing and/or what I should be doing. I'll stick with my ears.
Seriously, we should can all this forum business and figure out how to play together more often! (Kinda just kidding.)
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by stephenseifert
My new motto
“point the rhythm down the hill”
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Bob himself