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Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Ok, I understand that the majority of tunes have two parts, but what about the rest? There are so many 3+ part tunes that are played at sessions, but my question is where do they fit in with dancing. I know many experienced dancers know/recognize a great deal of tunes and many of them can count the parts as well, but others cannot, so how do you fit these 3+ part tunes into a set for dancing?
Is the standard length Part A/Part B three times then next tune? What should you do for a tune like say...Lucy Campbell's? It has four parts, so in a dancing situation should it count as two tunes so as not to confuse the dancers?
Since many slip jigs have three parts is the standard length Part A/Part B/Part C three times then next tune? Then what would you do with a tune like The Kid on the Mountain? Since it has five parts, do you have to pair it with two slip jigs that have two parts?
I understand there may be no magical formula for this, and it is always best to consult the dancers first, but if your told to just "play some jigs" how do you make a set? Do you just avoid the 3+ part tunes? To me, the two most frustrating things that happen when playing for dances is A. the dancers finish and the musicians keep playing, or B. the musicians finish and the dancers keep dancing. Any advice?
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
That's a broad a question in that Set dancing often requires multiple reels played back to back. So a multipart tune just makes it easier. For Step dancing it may involve playing the tune once through but with the A section played 3 times as they can treat that as an intro - AAABB. Jigs for step dancers are usually so slow that it is a nightmare to play. If Stepdancers are doing a choreography or stepabout then you try and learn where the dance ends and make sure you stop playing with the dancers.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Been playing a lot for Ceilidh dancing and countrydancing : as a musician, you have to know how many bars the dance is made on : for instance, a lot of Ceilidh dances work on 16 bars : that makes, if you repeat the parts, one part (AA) : if you have a three part tune, as most tunes are constructed on 8 bars parts, it will allow three repeats of the dance. you can have also 32 bar dances (one 2-part tune), 48 bars (one three part tune)... some are a bit tricky : the eightsome reel starts with 40 bars, then goes on with 8 times 48 bars, and 40 bars again. We managed that by playing first tune AABBB, then the other ones ABABAB (without repeats), and then the first one again AABBB.
if I have a 4-part tune, I usually count it as 2 2-part tunes...
hope that helps... at least it works for Ceilidh dances...
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Gah, most dancers can't even tell a reel from a jig, and won't really care what you play. Golden rule - start and keep going in the same time until they finish. That's all there is to it!
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
If you are playing for a dance troup that have prepared a dance you should Play the first part 3 times to allow for the introduction. For general setdancing etc. I would try and change tunes when "Sides" start dancing. It takes experience to get to know when but you will soon get to know the long figures where muti part tunes are great .
But for all your hard work in picking tunes most dancers will never even notice so do as continuo says
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
My observation at ceilidhs is that an experienced band with caller usually knows instinctively, or by watching "where they are at" in a particular dance, and sometimes the dancers get out of synch anyway, so most bands are good at repeating or cutting bits on the fly in order to get sets the right length.
So, as long as the rhythm's right, an odd number of parts in the tune won't make that much difference to an experienced band
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
by the same token a lot of players don't know the difference between an eight-hand reel and a four-hand one.personally, i wish i knew a great geal more about Irish dance than i do. but i do know a little. At the session we are often visited by the little "hoppers" from the local stepdance classes. The mother ofone of the girls came up and asked us to play a treble jig. I knew what she meant- the other players didn't. I found the ensuing debate over what she meant to be entertaining, even amusing at times. Of course the little dancer's mother had no idea how to describe what she wanted in musical terms. I finally jumped in when it was decided that " treble jig" must be some dancer talk for "slip jig"! This seems to be one of those discussions with two definite camps. iI think anyone who is serious about playing Irish Dance Music owes it to themself and to the tradition itself to learn a bit about Irish Dance. I'm grateful for all the info I find on this site about dancing, so thanks
cheers, pipewatcher
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
You're kidding yourselves if you think good dancers can't discern between reels and jigs, polkas and slides. The rhythms are quite evident. The difference between a good dance band and an indifferent band is whether or not the players have a feel for rhythm, and can play a reel as a reel, a polka as a polka (and not a reel) and a jig most definitely as a jig. As for parts - good dancers can 'cross the music' if they have to . Echoing Bren - as long as the rhythm is right, an odd number of parts won't make that much difference to an experienced dancer.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
As has already been said, the objective should be to keep the same tempo and finish at the same time as the dancers. To achieve this with step dancers it's nearly always necessary to play the tune AAABB AABB - the dancers just listen for the first 8 bars and then come in.
As for set dancers, it's knowing how long each figure is going to be and this is where it's great to have a dancer in the group. Again the different types of tune come into their own here as while two normal (AABB) reels played twice are ideal for the first figure of the Caledonian set, the second figure needs a three part (AABBCC) reel such as Christmas Eve for musicians and dancers to remain in synch. Similarly the fifth figure needs a combination of single reels (Boyne Hunt, Rolling in the Ryegrass, Red Haired Lass, Kilfenora Reel Set, etc) to work.
If you don't have a dancing expert with you, arrange for one of the dancers to give you a signal near the end of the figure. If all else fails, keep a close eye on the dancers as they always perform what they call "House" (all four couples swing around in circular fashion for the last 16 bars or so) as the figure comes to an end.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
ITM set dancing I couldn't possibly comment on - but a lot of 'country/barn/folk/ceilidh' dances are in a standard 32-bar format, so AABB sits fine with that. Some, however, are in 48-bar format, in which case a 3-part tune sits very nicely, but some old and experienced hands play AABBAB on a 2-part tune. For a lot of square dances, for instance, my band usually plays a 4-tune set, so that the whole dance progression goes through twice, with each couple leading in turn. So we will play AABB twice, for each tune, and have the tunes arranged so there is a good key-change to lift the mood every time.
You just have to be organised in advance, and not wait for the happy moment of someone thinking of a new tune for a set as in a session.
There is also the problem of inexperienced, or 'public' dancers, not keeping up with the band and the calling, especially at the beginning of the evening, when they don't know what they are doing, and at the end when they may be intoxicated. To cope with this my band has an extra mike on stage, which only goes through the foldback to the band, through which I often cry "EXTRA B!" or whatever, so the audience can catch up with the music.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Dances also come in a variety of 'repeating' lengths ~ 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48 and on up... Many set (quadrille / square) figures can be quite irregular, while still combinations of parts of 8 & 16 bars in length ~ while not fitting the usual repeating 32 bars definition of many of the figure dances ~ ceili(dh), country dances, and some couple dances... An old ceili standard, "The Haymakers Jig", if danced in time, is a perfect fit with a 5-part jig like "Doctor O'Neills", 80 bars... But, as some play for it, any combination of 16 bar parts will do...
"Rakes of Mallow", another ceili standard, and Coimisiun 'official' 'in-the-book' choreography, is a perfect fit with any 5-part single reel ~ 40 bars...
Even if a dancer can't voice the differences, they feel it, and they are very aware when the music is shight for dancing to, when it hinders rather than helps...
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
As a feis musician, I find that it doesn't really matter that much when you're playing for non-championship dancers as they tend to line them up by the dozens to dance either two or three at a time, depending on their size and the size of the stage (ie., larger stage with smaller children will generally compete three at a time). So from the musicians' point of view, you simply start playing your reel, jig, or hornpipe and continue repeating the tune (or tunes if you want to switch) until the last competitor(s) stop dancing. The beginners, for the most part don't know when to start - the adjudicator will sometimes count it off for them - and sometimes don't know when to stop, and mostly can't tell the difference between a reel, jig, or hornpipe.
When playing for Championship level dancers, the dancers are expected to know the difference between the different types of tunes and some judges have told me that they will penalize dancers who fail to stop and correct a musician who (for whatever reason) starts into a hornpipe when they're supposed to be playing a treble jig (or whatever).
As to the original question concerning 2- or 3- or more- part tunes, Championship level dancers will dance a specific number of "steps" for each type of competition. They are usually required to dance a soft shoe (ie.., reel or slip jig) and a hard shoe (ie., hornpipe or treble jig) dance, and then if they recall (score in the top "something" percentage of dancers in their particular competition), they dance a specific set dance of their choosing. What a dancer refers to as a "step", I'm not entirely certain, (I think it amounts to 16 measures of music) but I know that for most types of tunes, they normally dance 3 "steps" which usually translates into what we would play as a 3-part tune. It is usually not any more specific than that, so that you could play a standard 2-part tune as either AABBAA, or AABBAB, with an 8-bar intro, which would make it AAABBAA, or AAABBAB.
I have found that erring on the side of too much music is better than erring on the side of ending your playing before they end their dance.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
pbassnote; I have to admit your post explains, for me, some of the loose ends. Good description.
I appreciate your pointing out that beginners are, in fact, just that ~ inexperienced. I keep finding comments where that point is missed & a generalization is drawn.
We used to have a fun stepdancer come to our session. I learned as much from her as from any player. When I see her again I'll ask her what she means by a "step"
Oh yeah, she knows the difference between rhythms.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Perhaps we should stress the difference between social dancing and competition/exhibition dancing ?
As someone who only plays in some unsophisticated sessions, and for social dancing, half of what has been said here is beyond me.
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
The dancing I was referring to previously was with respect to 'social' dancing, rather than competition step dancing...
I second pbassnote's conclusion ~ err on the side of too much rather than too little...
Back to the 'social' side of it. We would sometimes establish the dance with 32 bar tunes, in this case I'm meaning dances that are defined in the same way, 32 bars in length, and after the dancers were comfortable with that we might throw in something else that would fit, even a 4 or 6 part melody if there were room for it. With a 6-part melody you'd be 3 times through a 32 bar dance for once through the tune, but the 16 bar phrases / changes would still be in sync with each other. If it were a 48 bar dance, then a 6-part tune would mean twice through the dance. With the few long figures of a set of quadrilles/set dance you could also use longer tunes, but it is great kick to still time your ending with the dancers... But, back on pbassnote's conclusion, don't short sheet them...
In some traditions in Ireland it was common for the music to continue beyond what the dancers dances, and the dancers would sound their conclusion by clapping in time with the music, the musicians bringing it to a close once they heard and saw the clapping. It was an accepted part of the tradition in the areas where they did this. So, in a set of quadrilles there'd be as many clapping conclusions as figures to the set... The clapping was also in appreciation of the music...
Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Ok, I understand that the majority of tunes have two parts, but what about the rest? There are so many 3+ part tunes that are played at sessions, but my question is where do they fit in with dancing. I know many experienced dancers know/recognize a great deal of tunes and many of them can count the parts as well, but others cannot, so how do you fit these 3+ part tunes into a set for dancing?
Is the standard length Part A/Part B three times then next tune? What should you do for a tune like say...Lucy Campbell's? It has four parts, so in a dancing situation should it count as two tunes so as not to confuse the dancers?
Since many slip jigs have three parts is the standard length Part A/Part B/Part C three times then next tune? Then what would you do with a tune like The Kid on the Mountain? Since it has five parts, do you have to pair it with two slip jigs that have two parts?
I understand there may be no magical formula for this, and it is always best to consult the dancers first, but if your told to just "play some jigs" how do you make a set? Do you just avoid the 3+ part tunes? To me, the two most frustrating things that happen when playing for dances is A. the dancers finish and the musicians keep playing, or B. the musicians finish and the dancers keep dancing. Any advice?
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by Johnny Chicago
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
That's a broad a question in that Set dancing often requires multiple reels played back to back. So a multipart tune just makes it easier. For Step dancing it may involve playing the tune once through but with the A section played 3 times as they can treat that as an intro - AAABB. Jigs for step dancers are usually so slow that it is a nightmare to play. If Stepdancers are doing a choreography or stepabout then you try and learn where the dance ends and make sure you stop playing with the dancers.
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by Donough
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Been playing a lot for Ceilidh dancing and countrydancing : as a musician, you have to know how many bars the dance is made on : for instance, a lot of Ceilidh dances work on 16 bars : that makes, if you repeat the parts, one part (AA) : if you have a three part tune, as most tunes are constructed on 8 bars parts, it will allow three repeats of the dance. you can have also 32 bar dances (one 2-part tune), 48 bars (one three part tune)... some are a bit tricky : the eightsome reel starts with 40 bars, then goes on with 8 times 48 bars, and 40 bars again. We managed that by playing first tune AABBB, then the other ones ABABAB (without repeats), and then the first one again AABBB.
if I have a 4-part tune, I usually count it as 2 2-part tunes...
hope that helps... at least it works for Ceilidh dances...
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by Nikita Pfister
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Gah, most dancers can't even tell a reel from a jig, and won't really care what you play. Golden rule - start and keep going in the same time until they finish. That's all there is to it!
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by continuo
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
If you are playing for a dance troup that have prepared a dance you should Play the first part 3 times to allow for the introduction. For general setdancing etc. I would try and change tunes when "Sides" start dancing. It takes experience to get to know when but you will soon get to know the long figures where muti part tunes are great .
But for all your hard work in picking tunes most dancers will never even notice so do as continuo says
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by murcu
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
My observation at ceilidhs is that an experienced band with caller usually knows instinctively, or by watching "where they are at" in a particular dance, and sometimes the dancers get out of synch anyway, so most bands are good at repeating or cutting bits on the fly in order to get sets the right length.
So, as long as the rhythm's right, an odd number of parts in the tune won't make that much difference to an experienced band
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by Bren
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
by the same token a lot of players don't know the difference between an eight-hand reel and a four-hand one.personally, i wish i knew a great geal more about Irish dance than i do. but i do know a little. At the session we are often visited by the little "hoppers" from the local stepdance classes. The mother ofone of the girls came up and asked us to play a treble jig. I knew what she meant- the other players didn't. I found the ensuing debate over what she meant to be entertaining, even amusing at times. Of course the little dancer's mother had no idea how to describe what she wanted in musical terms. I finally jumped in when it was decided that " treble jig" must be some dancer talk for "slip jig"! This seems to be one of those discussions with two definite camps. iI think anyone who is serious about playing Irish Dance Music owes it to themself and to the tradition itself to learn a bit about Irish Dance. I'm grateful for all the info I find on this site about dancing, so thanks
cheers, pipewatcher
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
You're kidding yourselves if you think good dancers can't discern between reels and jigs, polkas and slides. The rhythms are quite evident. The difference between a good dance band and an indifferent band is whether or not the players have a feel for rhythm, and can play a reel as a reel, a polka as a polka (and not a reel) and a jig most definitely as a jig. As for parts - good dancers can 'cross the music' if they have to . Echoing Bren - as long as the rhythm is right, an odd number of parts won't make that much difference to an experienced dancer.
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
As has already been said, the objective should be to keep the same tempo and finish at the same time as the dancers. To achieve this with step dancers it's nearly always necessary to play the tune AAABB AABB - the dancers just listen for the first 8 bars and then come in.
As for set dancers, it's knowing how long each figure is going to be and this is where it's great to have a dancer in the group. Again the different types of tune come into their own here as while two normal (AABB) reels played twice are ideal for the first figure of the Caledonian set, the second figure needs a three part (AABBCC) reel such as Christmas Eve for musicians and dancers to remain in synch. Similarly the fifth figure needs a combination of single reels (Boyne Hunt, Rolling in the Ryegrass, Red Haired Lass, Kilfenora Reel Set, etc) to work.
If you don't have a dancing expert with you, arrange for one of the dancers to give you a signal near the end of the figure. If all else fails, keep a close eye on the dancers as they always perform what they call "House" (all four couples swing around in circular fashion for the last 16 bars or so) as the figure comes to an end.
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
ITM set dancing I couldn't possibly comment on - but a lot of 'country/barn/folk/ceilidh' dances are in a standard 32-bar format, so AABB sits fine with that. Some, however, are in 48-bar format, in which case a 3-part tune sits very nicely, but some old and experienced hands play AABBAB on a 2-part tune. For a lot of square dances, for instance, my band usually plays a 4-tune set, so that the whole dance progression goes through twice, with each couple leading in turn. So we will play AABB twice, for each tune, and have the tunes arranged so there is a good key-change to lift the mood every time.
You just have to be organised in advance, and not wait for the happy moment of someone thinking of a new tune for a set as in a session.
There is also the problem of inexperienced, or 'public' dancers, not keeping up with the band and the calling, especially at the beginning of the evening, when they don't know what they are doing, and at the end when they may be intoxicated. To cope with this my band has an extra mike on stage, which only goes through the foldback to the band, through which I often cry "EXTRA B!" or whatever, so the audience can catch up with the music.
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Dances also come in a variety of 'repeating' lengths ~ 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48 and on up... Many set (quadrille / square) figures can be quite irregular, while still combinations of parts of 8 & 16 bars in length ~ while not fitting the usual repeating 32 bars definition of many of the figure dances ~ ceili(dh), country dances, and some couple dances... An old ceili standard, "The Haymakers Jig", if danced in time, is a perfect fit with a 5-part jig like "Doctor O'Neills", 80 bars... But, as some play for it, any combination of 16 bar parts will do...
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by ceolachan
"Rakes of Mallow", another ceili standard, and Coimisiun 'official' 'in-the-book' choreography, is a perfect fit with any 5-part single reel ~ 40 bars...
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Even if a dancer can't voice the differences, they feel it, and they are very aware when the music is shight for dancing to, when it hinders rather than helps...
# Posted on December 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
As a feis musician, I find that it doesn't really matter that much when you're playing for non-championship dancers as they tend to line them up by the dozens to dance either two or three at a time, depending on their size and the size of the stage (ie., larger stage with smaller children will generally compete three at a time). So from the musicians' point of view, you simply start playing your reel, jig, or hornpipe and continue repeating the tune (or tunes if you want to switch) until the last competitor(s) stop dancing. The beginners, for the most part don't know when to start - the adjudicator will sometimes count it off for them - and sometimes don't know when to stop, and mostly can't tell the difference between a reel, jig, or hornpipe.
When playing for Championship level dancers, the dancers are expected to know the difference between the different types of tunes and some judges have told me that they will penalize dancers who fail to stop and correct a musician who (for whatever reason) starts into a hornpipe when they're supposed to be playing a treble jig (or whatever).
As to the original question concerning 2- or 3- or more- part tunes, Championship level dancers will dance a specific number of "steps" for each type of competition. They are usually required to dance a soft shoe (ie.., reel or slip jig) and a hard shoe (ie., hornpipe or treble jig) dance, and then if they recall (score in the top "something" percentage of dancers in their particular competition), they dance a specific set dance of their choosing. What a dancer refers to as a "step", I'm not entirely certain, (I think it amounts to 16 measures of music) but I know that for most types of tunes, they normally dance 3 "steps" which usually translates into what we would play as a 3-part tune. It is usually not any more specific than that, so that you could play a standard 2-part tune as either AABBAA, or AABBAB, with an 8-bar intro, which would make it AAABBAA, or AAABBAB.
I have found that erring on the side of too much music is better than erring on the side of ending your playing before they end their dance.
# Posted on December 10th 2008 by pbassnote
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
pbassnote; I have to admit your post explains, for me, some of the loose ends. Good description.
I appreciate your pointing out that beginners are, in fact, just that ~ inexperienced. I keep finding comments where that point is missed & a generalization is drawn.
We used to have a fun stepdancer come to our session. I learned as much from her as from any player. When I see her again I'll ask her what she means by a "step"
Oh yeah, she knows the difference between rhythms.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
Perhaps we should stress the difference between social dancing and competition/exhibition dancing ?
As someone who only plays in some unsophisticated sessions, and for social dancing, half of what has been said here is beyond me.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tunes with more than two parts; how do they work with dancing?
The dancing I was referring to previously was with respect to 'social' dancing, rather than competition step dancing...
I second pbassnote's conclusion ~ err on the side of too much rather than too little...
Back to the 'social' side of it. We would sometimes establish the dance with 32 bar tunes, in this case I'm meaning dances that are defined in the same way, 32 bars in length, and after the dancers were comfortable with that we might throw in something else that would fit, even a 4 or 6 part melody if there were room for it. With a 6-part melody you'd be 3 times through a 32 bar dance for once through the tune, but the 16 bar phrases / changes would still be in sync with each other. If it were a 48 bar dance, then a 6-part tune would mean twice through the dance. With the few long figures of a set of quadrilles/set dance you could also use longer tunes, but it is great kick to still time your ending with the dancers... But, back on pbassnote's conclusion, don't short sheet them...
# Posted on December 12th 2008 by ceolachan
Bringing it home ~
In some traditions in Ireland it was common for the music to continue beyond what the dancers dances, and the dancers would sound their conclusion by clapping in time with the music, the musicians bringing it to a close once they heard and saw the clapping. It was an accepted part of the tradition in the areas where they did this. So, in a set of quadrilles there'd be as many clapping conclusions as figures to the set... The clapping was also in appreciation of the music...
# Posted on December 12th 2008 by ceolachan