against Form 696 compelling licensees who wish to hold live music events in 21 of the London Boroughs to report to the police the names, addresses, aliases and telephone numbers of performers, and the likely ethnicity of their audience. There's an eight page form to be filled in and sent to the police two weeks in advance of every gig.
Only British citizens or residents can validly "sign" the petition, but if you have views on this, please take a look.
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
This *could* be bad news.
Just in case you think sessions may be exempt because they may constitute an informal gathering of music friends or whatever you wish to call it, read the letter from Greenwich Council to the manager of a former session in Greenwich, and in particular take note of the sentences:
"The definition of "performers" has never been tested in court, but even if this was a jam session the council's view is that these people were "performers". They were being watched by at least a dozen customers who were tapping their feet to the music and thus being entertained by the performance."
This is not made up and is 100% true.
You can find the letter here: http://www.greentrad.org.uk/
scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on [the letter].
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
George Orwell's famous novel was originally entitled "1948". His publishers were concerned about the political implications of using such a title, and forced him to change it to "1984".
"2008" would have perhaps been a more appropriate choice.
I too am concerned about the possible application of this ridiculous and intrusive form to session playing, and I'm also concerned that its use might be extended beyond the capital.
Something must be done to bring this totalitarian government to heel.
A useful first step will be for us all to sign that petition. Unfortunately, there is no evidence of the Government changing its policy as result of petitions - even in the case of those with hundreds of thousands of signatures.
It might help if we all wrote to our MPs.
Or maybe someone could organise a protest march or demonstration.
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Wow... Totalitarianism 1, civil liberties 0. In the US you could challenge this under assorted First Amendment case law. Is there anything like that here, even though the UK has no written constitution?
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Yes, protest might include a mass outdoor session , AT!
Carol singers? ... well, a poetry reading group was recently banned from an English pub, after the landlord was threatened with a fine from the local authority because his music licence didn't cover "speaking".
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
The demand for these powers *seems* to be coming from the police, not the government or councils. The police (one likes to assume) have a working knowledge of disorder etc. problems associated with venues on their patch, while the gov. and council bods probably don't have a clue, so it would be helpful if the police issued a statement describing exactly what problems these controls are needed to combat, giving some real-life examples. They appear not (yet) to have done this.
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
At what point does someone walking along the street, whistling or singing a little tune to themselves, become a "performance"? When someone joins in? Boy, the Texas Rangers will be in trouble!
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
That is mind boggling. It should cause outrage in any person still able to think clearly.
The Orwellian overtones of cataloging all the musicians is obnoxious enough, but when the government and the police demand ethnicity information about a potential musical audience, this is what 'racism' is.
What could be the motivation? I have a feeling it has to do with young rowdies and dangerous 'ethnic' music such as hip-hop, with a large dose of filthy lucre, but whatever the reason, it's totalitarian and anti-liberty.
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Well, ~I tried......but the petition form kept telling me my two entries of my email address did not match. Certainly this seems a very strange piece of regulation - do you think it is a way of getting round the new Licensing Act, as a way of imposing more control over our fun ?
The thing about ethnic backgrounds used to be justified, when it was used for anything with central or local government funding, by saying that it ensured all sections of the community received support. Not that I approved of it.
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Yes this ethnicity thing is a bit worrying. Or it would have been for Irish people, especially from the North, if this had been enacted in London during the late 80's. At our session we occasionally dabble, in a good-natured way, in tunes and songs which might be thought of as rebel songs, eg playing the tune of the Galty Mountain Boy, Sean South of Garryowen, or John Kelly, and so on. How subversive would this be considered, and could they do anything other than make a note of this "quasi-terrorist" behaviour?
New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
There is an online petition running at
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Scrapthe696/
against Form 696 compelling licensees who wish to hold live music events in 21 of the London Boroughs to report to the police the names, addresses, aliases and telephone numbers of performers, and the likely ethnicity of their audience. There's an eight page form to be filled in and sent to the police two weeks in advance of every gig.
Only British citizens or residents can validly "sign" the petition, but if you have views on this, please take a look.
An Independent newspaper article here
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/how-form-696-could-pull-the-plug-on-the-capitals-music-scene-1028240.html
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by TomB-R
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Yet another sign of a government that doesn't trust its people (but hey, we don't trust them either, so no love lost!!)
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Wow - that seems a little extreme. We could start a new thread titled "Is racism allowed in London". On second thought, better not...
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Reverend
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
This *could* be bad news.
Just in case you think sessions may be exempt because they may constitute an informal gathering of music friends or whatever you wish to call it, read the letter from Greenwich Council to the manager of a former session in Greenwich, and in particular take note of the sentences:
"The definition of "performers" has never been tested in court, but even if this was a jam session the council's view is that these people were "performers". They were being watched by at least a dozen customers who were tapping their feet to the music and thus being entertained by the performance."
This is not made up and is 100% true.
You can find the letter here:
http://www.greentrad.org.uk/
scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on [the letter].
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
This sounds crazy so I've signed it. There's more about it here:
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i561563ef885396dbe2770f7d60cb9485
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by RichardB
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
George Orwell's famous novel was originally entitled "1948". His publishers were concerned about the political implications of using such a title, and forced him to change it to "1984".
"2008" would have perhaps been a more appropriate choice.
I too am concerned about the possible application of this ridiculous and intrusive form to session playing, and I'm also concerned that its use might be extended beyond the capital.
Something must be done to bring this totalitarian government to heel.
A useful first step will be for us all to sign that petition. Unfortunately, there is no evidence of the Government changing its policy as result of petitions - even in the case of those with hundreds of thousands of signatures.
It might help if we all wrote to our MPs.
Or maybe someone could organise a protest march or demonstration.
Any other ideas, anyone?
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Wow... Totalitarianism 1, civil liberties 0. In the US you could challenge this under assorted First Amendment case law. Is there anything like that here, even though the UK has no written constitution?
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
There is a thread going on Mudcat about this:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=116646&messages=10
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
What, myx, do you mean like a mass outdoor session, like the big mega-one they had at last year's fleadh?
I'm up for that, anyone else?
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
So, I'm thinking, will this include carol singers?
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Yes, protest might include a mass outdoor session , AT!
Carol singers? ... well, a poetry reading group was recently banned from an English pub, after the landlord was threatened with a fine from the local authority because his music licence didn't cover "speaking".
So yes, it might!
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
The demand for these powers *seems* to be coming from the police, not the government or councils. The police (one likes to assume) have a working knowledge of disorder etc. problems associated with venues on their patch, while the gov. and council bods probably don't have a clue, so it would be helpful if the police issued a statement describing exactly what problems these controls are needed to combat, giving some real-life examples. They appear not (yet) to have done this.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
At what point does someone walking along the street, whistling or singing a little tune to themselves, become a "performance"? When someone joins in? Boy, the Texas Rangers will be in trouble!
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
nicholas - I cannot believe that the police are acting "ultra vires" in this instance.
They are presumably acting under powers given to them by the government.
In which case, the government should answer for it.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Here:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tC22HZ1-d8Y
I always thought it was them singing, when I was a kid!
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
That is mind boggling. It should cause outrage in any person still able to think clearly.
The Orwellian overtones of cataloging all the musicians is obnoxious enough, but when the government and the police demand ethnicity information about a potential musical audience, this is what 'racism' is.
What could be the motivation? I have a feeling it has to do with young rowdies and dangerous 'ethnic' music such as hip-hop, with a large dose of filthy lucre, but whatever the reason, it's totalitarian and anti-liberty.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Well, ~I tried......but the petition form kept telling me my two entries of my email address did not match. Certainly this seems a very strange piece of regulation - do you think it is a way of getting round the new Licensing Act, as a way of imposing more control over our fun ?
The thing about ethnic backgrounds used to be justified, when it was used for anything with central or local government funding, by saying that it ensured all sections of the community received support. Not that I approved of it.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Success at the third try !
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Yes this ethnicity thing is a bit worrying. Or it would have been for Irish people, especially from the North, if this had been enacted in London during the late 80's. At our session we occasionally dabble, in a good-natured way, in tunes and songs which might be thought of as rebel songs, eg playing the tune of the Galty Mountain Boy, Sean South of Garryowen, or John Kelly, and so on. How subversive would this be considered, and could they do anything other than make a note of this "quasi-terrorist" behaviour?
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Good luck with your petition! I hope the government backs down and gets rid of Form 696 and the associated regulations.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
@Mix O'Lydian:
Point taken.
Powers given by the government, to itself or others, do seem to be invoked in an increasingly elastic way these days...
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
wake up all of you
we're living in a banana monarchy
# Posted on December 4th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
This just bloody crazy, closer and closer to a police state!!!
I'm up for a demo for sure, and have certainly signed.
# Posted on December 4th 2008 by tctelboy
Re: New Police powers over gigs in London - Form 696
Best of luck to you folks in London. I hope you succeed in putting the ol' kibosh on this completely idiotic notion.
# Posted on December 4th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan