I have been trying for the last several months to make sure that my concertina and guitar playing sound traditional. For a long time I have been aware of the difference between how my music sounds and how really good traditional songs sound when played by the musicians I really admire. People like Noel Hill, Edel Fox, Donal Clancy, Arty McGlynn, etc. Some time back I was encouraged here on this forum to start learning all Irish music by ear instead of off the dots, and then improvising in the ornaments. I have done this and it has proven to be a difficult transition for me and where I used to learn and memorize a song in one sitting it now takes me several just to get the basics. However, I can tell it is worth it because now when I play the songs I have learned by ear, (from good trad players), they actually have that "Irish" sound that gets your feet a tapping.
Nevertheless, I am having some difficulty. As I have mentioned here before, I am trying to learn most of my music from CDs because there are not any other good trad players to learn from in my area and I can't afford to drive long distances. I am mainly concentrating on my concertina playing and what I am finding out is that the artists on most the CDs I have, seem to like using odd keyed instruments like Bflat/Eflat systems. I own a C/G concertina from Edgely and can't hardly find the notes they are playing much less play along. In the six or seven years since I started playing ITM I haven't experience anyone who plays in such odd keys, it is usually things like G, D, Em, Bm, A etc. which don't require more than two or three sharps. I can handle up to three accidentals but when it goes over that it quickly goes over my head. This wouldn't be a big problem if it happened only here or there but when I put in a Noel hill or Edel Fox CD they seem to play only notes from my outside, (accidental), row, even in songs like Boys of Bluehill that I haven't ever seen and that everybody I know plays in anything but D. Is playing in these keys common practice and do concertina players just learn to play in them or does one just have to shell out a few thousand more dollars a have two or three concertinas in different keys or what? I am finding myself getting quite discouraged by these difficulties and by the lack of a good player to mentor me along my way and I don't know where to turn right now. What can I do?
I saw a post on Nov. 30 about playing with others using web cams and that there are some who are starting to teach using this technology. Is this something I need to learn about?
I just don't know what to do or think at this point and a guess I am just wanting to talk about it with someone. Irish music is the only music I play anymore, almost all I listen to and it is where my heart lies, but for all of that I am starting to feel lost.
James Kelly does lessons using Skype I believe. Maybe have a chat with a professional like him about these issues, it can't hurt. Important to remember that you need a good musician - who also happens to be a good teacher.
It doesn't always necessarily follow - in any profession (that the professional is always also a good teacher.)
I think James is. So would Kevin Burke, but I don't think he teaches, apart from masterclasses sometimes.
I know it's a bit of a drive for you, but there are Irish musicians in Pocatello. e-mail me off-list for more info, if you don't already know about them.
You're right, a lot of concertina recordings use instruments that diverge from C/G tuning. Edel Fox's CD was recorded using a C#/G# box. Several cuts on Micheal O Raghallaigh's "The Nervous Man" CD were done using an Ab/Eb box.
Yeah, you could spend a fortune on multiple instruments. But if you don't have a fortune, you can use software to change the pitch without changing the speed. The software I use, Transcribe! (see http://www.seventhstring.com/, free to try for a month, $50 to purchase) is excellent, but there are many other packages that can do this. With this software, I can save tracks that I have re-pitched and then burn them to CD. You do lose something in sound quality, but it's quite good enough for tune-learning and for playing along. You can also slow down recordings (with or without pitch change), which is also really helpful for learning.
don't get discouraged anymore - keep at it and use the software - there's good stuff available for free, like Audacity mentioned above, if you'd rather spend the money on other things.
I had not thought about changing the pitch on the computer! I used to have Audacity but my computer just crashed and I lost it along with almost everything else in my music folder because I had not backed it up like I should have. I will try downloading both it and Transcribe and start working on that line. Thanks for mentioning it, I can hardly wait and I definately wouldn't have thought of it myself.
I would also like to check out the possibility of taking some lesson using Skype, whatever that is. Could somebody tell me a little more about it?
And by the way, I just watched a video of Edel Fox from Comhaltas and she was playing the tune I was trying to learn from her CD. However, this time she was using a C/G and I could start to follow along. I have seen her on three other vids and recognize the concertina as the same one. So if she plays C/G often enough to get taped doing it on Comhaltas why the change for recording? Noel Hill seems to do the same thing. Is there some special reason?
A lot of concertina players just like the slightly higher, "brighter" sound of a C#/G# instrument. I've taken two workshops with Noel, and while he of course uses the C/G for class he has used a C#/G# for the concerts held in conjunction with the workshops. In Edel's case, the instrument she used to record her CD was borrowed from Tim Collins -- whereas she presumably owns the instrument she played on the videos you saw.
Doesn't that make it difficult on the people playing with them? Sure, I know that with a fiddle you can play in any key in the chromatic scale, but surely putting the song into E flat or G sharp would still be difficult esp. if they had to relearn the tune. And I would think it would be even worse on a box or the pipes. I can play in any key on my guitar whether flatpicking the melody or playing backup even without a capo, but it sure is hard work and that could be putting it very mildly sometimes. Then again I am still quite a beginner in ITM.
Changing tack from the concertina geek talk (I prefer fiddle geek talk), I have really got to recommend going somewhere packed with good musicians. If you can, go for a short or long time to Boston or New York (or maybe Chicago and hang out with John Williams), or to Ireland, and listen to or play with the best people you can. You will have a whale of a time. The most better my playing has got has to do with finding people who are much better than me and spending lots of time with them. And then going away and practising for ages.
It's a good way to get re-inspired too, and get a bit of direction.
Another approach, and this may be a bit old-school, would be to use any old standard-pitch recording of a tune to learn the tunes, and use your ear to dope out what a particular concertina player is doing, the same way I can hear, to some extent, what Mary Bergin is doing on an f whistle and work it out on a d whistle.
This happens all the time with songs. I might hear a song a number of times, and then one day find myself singing it, and when go back to the recording, I find it's in a totaly different key - but what I'm singing is more or less the same thing, transposed to a better key for my voice. I don't need to mess around with transposing software to do this, I just let the song get under my skin, and then when it's ready, out it comes.
I don't know if I've explained what I'm thinking very well, but I think you might want to just give yourself a little patience. It usually feels like nothing's happening when you're learning the most.
(to be fair, it also sometimes feels like nothing's happening when nothing is in fact happening, some times you do need to give it a push...)
Simply put - a lot of musicians have instruments in different keys, for different tonal effects. Even fiddlers might have one fiddle in Eb and one in D, rather than changing pitch all the time. While there are a multitude of reasons for this, the most efficient way to describe them all is that concert pitch D is generally not that awesome for any instrument, whereas pretty much any other key sounds great. Fiddlers can more or less retune to whatever anyone needs, but other people...shell out the bucks or start learning your crazy chromatics.
Here's another option you can try: If you want to hear the tunes you're trying to learn but played in a normal key, there are several very helpful websites where musicians have recorded solo tunes, slowly and at speed, with the aim of helping people learn the tunes. The tunes can be played and downloaded for free - a wonderful resource! I'm sure there is a repository of links in various threads if you search, but here are a couple I've found particularly helpful:
Tyler, this is why on discussions on learning by ear - you'll hear people say (1) learn from local musicians in person, teacher or session etc. (2) learn from CD's etc. The former is preferable not only because you have live human beings to interact with but because they will play in 'normal' keys.
As you have discovered, CD recordings are often made in 'odd' keys and with 'non standard' variations of tunes. This so, the artist can showcase their talent and offer something a little different from that heard at sessions etc.
Re concertina CD's, try recordings by Mrs.Crotty and Kitty Hayes for more easily accessible tunes, albeit Clare style.
Life is a long road, friend. When you can phrase this "I've been trying for the last several years", you'll find big differences. The folks whose playing you mentioned above spent more that several months playing in traditional style!
Excellent advice above. Please let me add the advice to adjust your expectations, so you don't drive yourself nuts before you get where you want to be.
Sounding traditional is tough for someone who has learned and played on 'the other side' most of their lives. I am learning B/C box and at one point early on my teacher said I sounded like I was playing 'Slovak Accordion'
Surprise?! Shouldn't be. I am of Polish heritage and had a piano accordion dropped in my bassinette after leaving the delivery room. My sainted Polish mother still chafes at Irish Polkas.
But It starts coming around. I like the suggestion of getting a good teacher-someone who can help you listen to yourself so you can convert to style.
Once again thanks for all the comments. Like I said above I really needed to just talk to somebody about it. All the suggestions sound great and I will start trying them out. I especially want to work out how I could make the trip to play with better musicians or attend some workshop and the like. What Jon Kiparsky had to say is also intriguing. I know I do the same thing when I find myself humming a song I've listened to and even when I practice lilting, but I've not experimented in doing so on my concertina. I'll have to give it a go.
reenactor, I'm sure your right about adjusting my expectations. I haven't had to struggle to play music for many years and so I guess I get exasperated at my seemingly slow progress. I suppose I should concentrate on the fact that I am making progress and like you say look down the road a ways when I start to wonder if I'll ever be able to play like the people I admire.
Thanks for the links as well everyone, they look like they will be very useful.
I have given up on ever playing even remotely as well as my idols. So I measure myself against myself (forward motion is forward motion after all), and gauge my success on how much fun I am having. Strive to be better, but don't forget to enjoy!!!!
I haven't done a search, but there was something mentioned in a previous discussion some time ago about artists recording at normal speed, but then in post-production it is bumped up a half- or whole tone in pitch, to give their recordings a little extra "punch". Don't lose heart. There might be a very rational technological explanation for your frustrations. Just an idea anyhow.
Find yourself a good traditional music festival that includes the opportunity to learn from a concertina expert (even if only by watching him/her perform). Make sure its somewhere you will look forward to traveling, and schedule a vacation there as soon as possible. That would seem to offer some potential for a shot in the arm.
Getting Discouraged
Getting Discouraged
I have been trying for the last several months to make sure that my concertina and guitar playing sound traditional. For a long time I have been aware of the difference between how my music sounds and how really good traditional songs sound when played by the musicians I really admire. People like Noel Hill, Edel Fox, Donal Clancy, Arty McGlynn, etc. Some time back I was encouraged here on this forum to start learning all Irish music by ear instead of off the dots, and then improvising in the ornaments. I have done this and it has proven to be a difficult transition for me and where I used to learn and memorize a song in one sitting it now takes me several just to get the basics. However, I can tell it is worth it because now when I play the songs I have learned by ear, (from good trad players), they actually have that "Irish" sound that gets your feet a tapping.
Nevertheless, I am having some difficulty. As I have mentioned here before, I am trying to learn most of my music from CDs because there are not any other good trad players to learn from in my area and I can't afford to drive long distances. I am mainly concentrating on my concertina playing and what I am finding out is that the artists on most the CDs I have, seem to like using odd keyed instruments like Bflat/Eflat systems. I own a C/G concertina from Edgely and can't hardly find the notes they are playing much less play along. In the six or seven years since I started playing ITM I haven't experience anyone who plays in such odd keys, it is usually things like G, D, Em, Bm, A etc. which don't require more than two or three sharps. I can handle up to three accidentals but when it goes over that it quickly goes over my head. This wouldn't be a big problem if it happened only here or there but when I put in a Noel hill or Edel Fox CD they seem to play only notes from my outside, (accidental), row, even in songs like Boys of Bluehill that I haven't ever seen and that everybody I know plays in anything but D. Is playing in these keys common practice and do concertina players just learn to play in them or does one just have to shell out a few thousand more dollars a have two or three concertinas in different keys or what? I am finding myself getting quite discouraged by these difficulties and by the lack of a good player to mentor me along my way and I don't know where to turn right now. What can I do?
I saw a post on Nov. 30 about playing with others using web cams and that there are some who are starting to teach using this technology. Is this something I need to learn about?
I just don't know what to do or think at this point and a guess I am just wanting to talk about it with someone. Irish music is the only music I play anymore, almost all I listen to and it is where my heart lies, but for all of that I am starting to feel lost.
Tyler
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Tyler
Re: Getting Discouraged
James Kelly does lessons using Skype I believe. Maybe have a chat with a professional like him about these issues, it can't hurt. Important to remember that you need a good musician - who also happens to be a good teacher.
It doesn't always necessarily follow - in any profession (that the professional is always also a good teacher.)
I think James is. So would Kevin Burke, but I don't think he teaches, apart from masterclasses sometimes.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Getting Discouraged
check out http://www.concertina.net but I assume you already know
about it
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Getting Discouraged
I know it's a bit of a drive for you, but there are Irish musicians in Pocatello. e-mail me off-list for more info, if you don't already know about them.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by browndog
Re: Getting Discouraged
Just use a free audio program like Audacity to pitch-shift mp3s down a half step for all those albums that are a half step up.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by mcdevincabe
Re: Getting Discouraged
You're right, a lot of concertina recordings use instruments that diverge from C/G tuning. Edel Fox's CD was recorded using a C#/G# box. Several cuts on Micheal O Raghallaigh's "The Nervous Man" CD were done using an Ab/Eb box.
Yeah, you could spend a fortune on multiple instruments. But if you don't have a fortune, you can use software to change the pitch without changing the speed. The software I use, Transcribe! (see http://www.seventhstring.com/, free to try for a month, $50 to purchase) is excellent, but there are many other packages that can do this. With this software, I can save tracks that I have re-pitched and then burn them to CD. You do lose something in sound quality, but it's quite good enough for tune-learning and for playing along. You can also slow down recordings (with or without pitch change), which is also really helpful for learning.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by boxist
Re: Getting Discouraged
don't get discouraged anymore - keep at it and use the software - there's good stuff available for free, like Audacity mentioned above, if you'd rather spend the money on other things.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: Getting Discouraged
Hey thanks,
I had not thought about changing the pitch on the computer! I used to have Audacity but my computer just crashed and I lost it along with almost everything else in my music folder because I had not backed it up like I should have. I will try downloading both it and Transcribe and start working on that line. Thanks for mentioning it, I can hardly wait and I definately wouldn't have thought of it myself.
I would also like to check out the possibility of taking some lesson using Skype, whatever that is. Could somebody tell me a little more about it?
And by the way, I just watched a video of Edel Fox from Comhaltas and she was playing the tune I was trying to learn from her CD. However, this time she was using a C/G and I could start to follow along. I have seen her on three other vids and recognize the concertina as the same one. So if she plays C/G often enough to get taped doing it on Comhaltas why the change for recording? Noel Hill seems to do the same thing. Is there some special reason?
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Tyler
Re: Getting Discouraged
A lot of concertina players just like the slightly higher, "brighter" sound of a C#/G# instrument. I've taken two workshops with Noel, and while he of course uses the C/G for class he has used a C#/G# for the concerts held in conjunction with the workshops. In Edel's case, the instrument she used to record her CD was borrowed from Tim Collins -- whereas she presumably owns the instrument she played on the videos you saw.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by boxist
Re: Getting Discouraged
Doesn't that make it difficult on the people playing with them? Sure, I know that with a fiddle you can play in any key in the chromatic scale, but surely putting the song into E flat or G sharp would still be difficult esp. if they had to relearn the tune. And I would think it would be even worse on a box or the pipes. I can play in any key on my guitar whether flatpicking the melody or playing backup even without a capo, but it sure is hard work and that could be putting it very mildly sometimes. Then again I am still quite a beginner in ITM.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Tyler
Re: Getting Discouraged
Changing tack from the concertina geek talk (I prefer fiddle geek talk), I have really got to recommend going somewhere packed with good musicians. If you can, go for a short or long time to Boston or New York (or maybe Chicago and hang out with John Williams), or to Ireland, and listen to or play with the best people you can. You will have a whale of a time. The most better my playing has got has to do with finding people who are much better than me and spending lots of time with them. And then going away and practising for ages.
It's a good way to get re-inspired too, and get a bit of direction.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by ewallace
Re: Getting Discouraged
Another approach, and this may be a bit old-school, would be to use any old standard-pitch recording of a tune to learn the tunes, and use your ear to dope out what a particular concertina player is doing, the same way I can hear, to some extent, what Mary Bergin is doing on an f whistle and work it out on a d whistle.
This happens all the time with songs. I might hear a song a number of times, and then one day find myself singing it, and when go back to the recording, I find it's in a totaly different key - but what I'm singing is more or less the same thing, transposed to a better key for my voice. I don't need to mess around with transposing software to do this, I just let the song get under my skin, and then when it's ready, out it comes.
I don't know if I've explained what I'm thinking very well, but I think you might want to just give yourself a little patience. It usually feels like nothing's happening when you're learning the most.
(to be fair, it also sometimes feels like nothing's happening when nothing is in fact happening, some times you do need to give it a push...)
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Getting Discouraged
Simply put - a lot of musicians have instruments in different keys, for different tonal effects. Even fiddlers might have one fiddle in Eb and one in D, rather than changing pitch all the time. While there are a multitude of reasons for this, the most efficient way to describe them all is that concert pitch D is generally not that awesome for any instrument, whereas pretty much any other key sounds great. Fiddlers can more or less retune to whatever anyone needs, but other people...shell out the bucks or start learning your crazy chromatics.
--DtM
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Getting Discouraged
http://www.skype.com/intl/en/
Provides video and audio link via your computer...an internet audiophone system. Free.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Getting Discouraged
videophone system.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Getting Discouraged
Here's another option you can try: If you want to hear the tunes you're trying to learn but played in a normal key, there are several very helpful websites where musicians have recorded solo tunes, slowly and at speed, with the aim of helping people learn the tunes. The tunes can be played and downloaded for free - a wonderful resource! I'm sure there is a repository of links in various threads if you search, but here are a couple I've found particularly helpful:
http://www.tradlessons.com/
http://irishflute.podbean.com/
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=000459911131320826227%3Apr71mpimhd0
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by fuzzygreen
Re: Getting Discouraged
Tyler, this is why on discussions on learning by ear - you'll hear people say (1) learn from local musicians in person, teacher or session etc. (2) learn from CD's etc. The former is preferable not only because you have live human beings to interact with but because they will play in 'normal' keys.
As you have discovered, CD recordings are often made in 'odd' keys and with 'non standard' variations of tunes. This so, the artist can showcase their talent and offer something a little different from that heard at sessions etc.
Re concertina CD's, try recordings by Mrs.Crotty and Kitty Hayes for more easily accessible tunes, albeit Clare style.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Getting Discouraged
Wait, did you say "for the past several months"?
Oh, you did.
Life is a long road, friend. When you can phrase this "I've been trying for the last several years", you'll find big differences. The folks whose playing you mentioned above spent more that several months playing in traditional style!
Excellent advice above. Please let me add the advice to adjust your expectations, so you don't drive yourself nuts before you get where you want to be.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by reenactor
Re: Getting Discouraged
I would add to the Hussar's recommendations: for yet more accessible tunes in the Clare style, check out Dympna O'Sullivan's excellent recent CD.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by DaveL35
Re: Getting Discouraged
Sounding traditional is tough for someone who has learned and played on 'the other side' most of their lives. I am learning B/C box and at one point early on my teacher said I sounded like I was playing 'Slovak Accordion'
Surprise?! Shouldn't be. I am of Polish heritage and had a piano accordion dropped in my bassinette after leaving the delivery room. My sainted Polish mother still chafes at Irish Polkas.
But It starts coming around. I like the suggestion of getting a good teacher-someone who can help you listen to yourself so you can convert to style.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by zippydw
Re: Getting Discouraged
Once again thanks for all the comments. Like I said above I really needed to just talk to somebody about it. All the suggestions sound great and I will start trying them out. I especially want to work out how I could make the trip to play with better musicians or attend some workshop and the like. What Jon Kiparsky had to say is also intriguing. I know I do the same thing when I find myself humming a song I've listened to and even when I practice lilting, but I've not experimented in doing so on my concertina. I'll have to give it a go.
reenactor, I'm sure your right about adjusting my expectations. I haven't had to struggle to play music for many years and so I guess I get exasperated at my seemingly slow progress. I suppose I should concentrate on the fact that I am making progress and like you say look down the road a ways when I start to wonder if I'll ever be able to play like the people I admire.
Thanks for the links as well everyone, they look like they will be very useful.
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by Tyler
Re: Getting Discouraged
I have given up on ever playing even remotely as well as my idols. So I measure myself against myself (forward motion is forward motion after all), and gauge my success on how much fun I am having. Strive to be better, but don't forget to enjoy!!!!
# Posted on December 3rd 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Getting Discouraged
I haven't done a search, but there was something mentioned in a previous discussion some time ago about artists recording at normal speed, but then in post-production it is bumped up a half- or whole tone in pitch, to give their recordings a little extra "punch". Don't lose heart. There might be a very rational technological explanation for your frustrations. Just an idea anyhow.
# Posted on December 4th 2008 by bindicat
Re: Getting Discouraged
Take a deep breath. Try to remember why you wanted to play the music to begin with. Take another deep breath
And sit down and start playing all over again.
# Posted on December 4th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Getting Discouraged
In isolation? 21 years old? No wife or serious gf?
MOVE.
Seriously.
Get outta Dodge. Go.
You're welcome.
# Posted on December 4th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Getting Discouraged
Find yourself a good traditional music festival that includes the opportunity to learn from a concertina expert (even if only by watching him/her perform). Make sure its somewhere you will look forward to traveling, and schedule a vacation there as soon as possible. That would seem to offer some potential for a shot in the arm.
# Posted on December 5th 2008 by Arthur Nordstrom