Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
I recently played a Clifford essex paragon. It’s the nicest banjo iv played. The seller was looking for €6000 for it. I also saw recently a Paramount style B going for €2000. Is it really worth spending 6000 on a banjo where you can achieve a similar response from one a fraction of the cost? What kind of cost is involved with customizing for instance a Dave Boyle banjo to attempt to achieve that raw crisp sound with quick action?
any ideas opinions would be valued
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
As with any instrument, get the one that sounds good to you. Don't look at the price ticket. And having one modified sounds expensive and will probably turn out dissappointing, as you can't make a purse etc...
Go out to all the shops and try loads & loads of them. The one you like (and likes you) will make itself known. The fiscal cost is not neccesarilly proportional to the musical value. Just because it's a XYZ make and model and it's expensive, there is no guarantee that it won't be a pig!
I don't know Mr. Levinger and have not yet done business with him but he has a good reputation and knows banjos, and there seem to be lots of photos to document the condition.
You might well prefer the tone of the long-scale Paramounts (that are showing up on ebay every week and going for a song in as-is condition) but just on the chance you like the short scale, they seem to be rarer.
Also there's a lot to be said for dealing with a pro who is based near you!....
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
You're also paying for scarcity if you're paying for something like a Paragon. They do indeed sound great, and are very expensive, but, as long as you don't buy a nail, you get yor money back when you sell. A well set up Paragon in my opinion sounds better than any tenor banjo I've played or heard, but it's all subjective. As for tweeking something like a Dave Boyle, that'd be expensive, and perhaps not the most effecient way of getting the sound you want. Paramounts are much cheaper, and have a good reputation among those that play them. Set up can also make a massive difference to a quality banjo, and by buying a good vintage (or modern) and changing the head, head tension, strings, bridge etc allows for a lot of scope in terms of changing the sound and tone that you're after.
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Epiphone A and B model banjos offer a cheaper alternative.
Lange designed the arch tone system and built Paramount banjos. They also designed the system for Epiphone, Clifford Essex copied the concept and redacted it slightly.
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
tonnta,
I think there are two things that you can be sure about banjos: there is always a better sounding one out there and you can't play the same banjo twice.
I've had the pleasure of playing four different Dave Boyle banjos in the past several months and have enjoyed them all. Over the past three years I have played three different Paragons and a host of other professional level banjos and each one has its signature sound that differs from the others. The one thing that they all had in common was what I call "Presence" a somewhat undefineable quality that makes you feel the banjo in your body when you play it and makes you happy to be a banjo player.
It will be impossible for you to make your Boyle sound like a Paragon, but with proper setup, you can bring out that Presence more than you have right now. For one thing, the Paragon is a lot older and age adds mojo and tone to almost any good musical instrument. In addition they are based on two completely different construction styles. The Bluegrass guys on banjohangout.org will tell you all about how even a slight difference in diameter or metal composition will change the sound.
Each banjo will have a signature sound that reflects its construction. If you talk to the old jazz banjo players, they will state that they can tell a Vega from a B&D from a Paramount when they hear it played in a band. The same is true with modern banjos like the Boyle and Clareens (and Deerings, Gibsons, Ome, etc), they each have a signature sound. If you A/B's two Boyles, you will find something remarkable, they don't sound alike. In fact there will be more variation within the make of banjos than you can detect when you compare two different brands. (The same is true in genetics inter-species vs. extra-species.)
The reason for this is that banjos are individual works of art. Because they are made from non-standardized materiels, mostly the wood, they will vary in how they present the signature sound. There are good Paragons and great Paragons, for example.
A professional level banjo will be made with more care than one made as an entry level instrument as a general rule. (That rule is sometimes broken - Vin Mondello thinks that the reason that he will come across a monster Vega Little Wonder is that the guy who made the top of the line instruments for Vega worked on the LW on a day when a Vega #9 was not being made.) Because of the quality inherent in a good banjo, setup can make it even better but it will stay within the signature sound.
So while your Boyle will never sound like the Paragon you played, it can be an even better Boyle which is a pretty good thing. You can take that Boyle quality and move the tone up or down, add to the volume, and change it in ways that will suit your tastes by doing what the others mention above. You can change the attack by changing the pressure of the tailpiece and the tension of the head. Type of head will also help, usually thinner (as in clear) means less sustain. But each banjo is different and you have to play around with the variables to see how your banjo would respond.
Also, you should listen to your banjo from the other side before you decide that it will not suit your purposes or tastes. One of the reasons other banjos sound so good is that they are built to project forward, especially if they have a resonator on them. You may be surprised.
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Red Robin, if the banjo didn't take your fancy the seller has a $25,000 painting in his "other items" you might be interested in. He doesn't say so, but Duke Ellington probably painted it.
Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
I recently played a Clifford essex paragon. It’s the nicest banjo iv played. The seller was looking for €6000 for it. I also saw recently a Paramount style B going for €2000. Is it really worth spending 6000 on a banjo where you can achieve a similar response from one a fraction of the cost? What kind of cost is involved with customizing for instance a Dave Boyle banjo to attempt to achieve that raw crisp sound with quick action?
any ideas opinions would be valued
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by tonnta
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
As with any instrument, get the one that sounds good to you. Don't look at the price ticket. And having one modified sounds expensive and will probably turn out dissappointing, as you can't make a purse etc...
Go out to all the shops and try loads & loads of them. The one you like (and likes you) will make itself known. The fiscal cost is not neccesarilly proportional to the musical value. Just because it's a XYZ make and model and it's expensive, there is no guarantee that it won't be a pig!
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
tonnta,
Just FYI, but I noticed that an interesting short-scale Paramount B was recently listed here for a pretty good price:
http://www.vintageinstruments.com/banjos.html
I don't know Mr. Levinger and have not yet done business with him but he has a good reputation and knows banjos, and there seem to be lots of photos to document the condition.
You might well prefer the tone of the long-scale Paramounts (that are showing up on ebay every week and going for a song in as-is condition) but just on the chance you like the short scale, they seem to be rarer.
Also there's a lot to be said for dealing with a pro who is based near you!....
PG
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
You're also paying for scarcity if you're paying for something like a Paragon. They do indeed sound great, and are very expensive, but, as long as you don't buy a nail, you get yor money back when you sell. A well set up Paragon in my opinion sounds better than any tenor banjo I've played or heard, but it's all subjective. As for tweeking something like a Dave Boyle, that'd be expensive, and perhaps not the most effecient way of getting the sound you want. Paramounts are much cheaper, and have a good reputation among those that play them. Set up can also make a massive difference to a quality banjo, and by buying a good vintage (or modern) and changing the head, head tension, strings, bridge etc allows for a lot of scope in terms of changing the sound and tone that you're after.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by gilezzznik
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Epiphone A and B model banjos offer a cheaper alternative.
Lange designed the arch tone system and built Paramount banjos. They also designed the system for Epiphone, Clifford Essex copied the concept and redacted it slightly.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Here is a REAL BARGAIN !! all the loonies are not yet in the big house..http://cgi.ebay.com/Unique-handmade-tenor-banjo_W0QQitemZ120339892953QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item120339892953&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Red Robin
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
tonnta,
I think there are two things that you can be sure about banjos: there is always a better sounding one out there and you can't play the same banjo twice.
I've had the pleasure of playing four different Dave Boyle banjos in the past several months and have enjoyed them all. Over the past three years I have played three different Paragons and a host of other professional level banjos and each one has its signature sound that differs from the others. The one thing that they all had in common was what I call "Presence" a somewhat undefineable quality that makes you feel the banjo in your body when you play it and makes you happy to be a banjo player.
It will be impossible for you to make your Boyle sound like a Paragon, but with proper setup, you can bring out that Presence more than you have right now. For one thing, the Paragon is a lot older and age adds mojo and tone to almost any good musical instrument. In addition they are based on two completely different construction styles. The Bluegrass guys on banjohangout.org will tell you all about how even a slight difference in diameter or metal composition will change the sound.
Each banjo will have a signature sound that reflects its construction. If you talk to the old jazz banjo players, they will state that they can tell a Vega from a B&D from a Paramount when they hear it played in a band. The same is true with modern banjos like the Boyle and Clareens (and Deerings, Gibsons, Ome, etc), they each have a signature sound. If you A/B's two Boyles, you will find something remarkable, they don't sound alike. In fact there will be more variation within the make of banjos than you can detect when you compare two different brands. (The same is true in genetics inter-species vs. extra-species.)
The reason for this is that banjos are individual works of art. Because they are made from non-standardized materiels, mostly the wood, they will vary in how they present the signature sound. There are good Paragons and great Paragons, for example.
A professional level banjo will be made with more care than one made as an entry level instrument as a general rule. (That rule is sometimes broken - Vin Mondello thinks that the reason that he will come across a monster Vega Little Wonder is that the guy who made the top of the line instruments for Vega worked on the LW on a day when a Vega #9 was not being made.) Because of the quality inherent in a good banjo, setup can make it even better but it will stay within the signature sound.
So while your Boyle will never sound like the Paragon you played, it can be an even better Boyle which is a pretty good thing. You can take that Boyle quality and move the tone up or down, add to the volume, and change it in ways that will suit your tastes by doing what the others mention above. You can change the attack by changing the pressure of the tailpiece and the tension of the head. Type of head will also help, usually thinner (as in clear) means less sustain. But each banjo is different and you have to play around with the variables to see how your banjo would respond.
Also, you should listen to your banjo from the other side before you decide that it will not suit your purposes or tastes. One of the reasons other banjos sound so good is that they are built to project forward, especially if they have a resonator on them. You may be surprised.
MIke Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by mikeyes
Re: Paragon Vs Paramount Vs Alteration Vs Price(Banjos)
Red Robin, if the banjo didn't take your fancy the seller has a $25,000 painting in his "other items" you might be interested in. He doesn't say so, but Duke Ellington probably painted it.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by grego