I've recently come across various spiteful references to 'plastic' paddies, and several plastic paddy-related insults have cropped up in recent discussions.
This may seem like a largely harmless and acceptable form of abuse, in comparison to a vilified word like 'nigger', or 'paki', but it's nonetheless racist and hugely offensive to many people, not only the first and second generation children of immigrants who are part of the Irish community, but to many Irish immigrants themselves, who have had families and made a life for themselves overseas.
It would be nice to see this form of racism eradicated here. Things have got quite ugly and insulting in recent months, and a number of people have lost self-control in a number of ways. No doubt someone will create a new email account just so they can destroy this thread with a moronic and degrading attack, but I would like people to be aware of the fact that whatever way you look at it, the term 'plastic paddy' is a form of racist abuse, and the reason it is used is because it is emotionally effective. In other words, it can be used to hurt people, and is effective in doing so.
It is possible to express disagreement without insult, and it is usually more productive to use intelligence than abuse to get one's point across, no matter how immediately satisfying it might be to tell someone what a complete c**t they are.
Save the slagging for the sessions, eh lads? It's one thing being called a c**t by your mates over a few tunes and pint or five in your local pub. It's another thing entirely to be called a '----------- ---------' by some gutless individual with a penchant for email anonymity in front of the entire population of cyberspace.
Plastic Paddy was first used as a term of insult to vilify the first and second generation immigrants who maintained a sense of cultural identification with the country of their parents or grandparents. To describe a person as a 'plastic' has very little to do with the description of Irish-themed pubs etc. outlined in the Wiki article.
Many English, Scottish and Welsh born people of Irish descent might have rather obvious political objections to possessing a British passport, for example. This makes them plastic, according to some.
It was a term of abuse first created by the stay-at-homes, to insult the families of those who left, and made a life for themselves outside of the economic nightmare that was 60s, 70s and 80s Ireland.
Of course, absolutely, zero tolerance to any racism. Jeremy should delete any offenders' account immediately, with no discussion.
I have though, seen the odd person here refer to themselves as plastic paddies. In a kind of putting themselves down a bit and saying that they'll never be able to play because they are not really Irish. This is just a little sad.
However, while I whole heartedly agree that It is possible to express disagreement without insult, and it is usually more productive to use intelligence than abuse to get one's point across, there does often come a point on this website where any amount of calm reasoned logic is completely lost in the maelstrom of stupidity. I am mostly tolerant of ignorance, but I have a low tolerance threshold for stupidity. And here, as all else is a failure, I am quite happy to resort to insult.
If anything, just so long as it's not mindless random ranting, but carefully thought out put downs, it can be entertaining. And you have to admit that there is a great tradition of insult in Ireland.
Folks are super-sensiitive about such things these days. When I was at school, any complaint made about it to a teacher would be swiftly dismissed with "Sticks and stones may break your bones, but names can never hurt you".
How things have changed since those times ...
A fiddler (a Dubliner) of my aquaintance always had a ready reply to verbal insults of any kind:
"Ye can call me what ye like - as long as it's not too early in the mornin!"
Although "Plastic Paddy" is not a term that I would ever use myself, "plastic" is just a modern material, and "Paddy" an abreviation for "Patrick", all said and done.
How about this for the ultimate racism...a descriptor that has actually entered the general lexicon in some countries probably about eighty years ago, so long ago that the racial slur implicit has actually been lost; except, as I have seen, the reaction of Irish visitors when they hear it. Very embarrassing. Happily, the descriptor has, at least here, has been disappearing from the language, although I see that a children's dictionary still carries the definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddywagon http://dictionary.kids.net.au/word/paddy_wagon
Back in the 1960s (when motor vehicle maintenance was much less strictly controlled than it is today), folks used to patch up holes in their car exhaust pipes using a product called "Plastic Padding".
Is this really racial? It's cultural, not racial. The point that is being made in the first post is that some people whose ancestors emigrated from the country of their origin might be considered by some other people (either from that country or not) to be making too much of a cultural heritage that is possibly quite distant, and deriving from it an identity that the aforementioned other people might consider to be spurious, possibly expressing that opinion in immoderate terms that cause offence. Sorry, but that's not racism. The music is great though, and I'm sure my Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English nineteenth century ancestors would approve of me playing it.
When I hear people laying on fake Irish accents, to me it seems
insulting to the real thing. If your father or great-grandmother
emigrated from Ireland, it means _they_ were Irish but if you
were born or raised in the USA, Australia or wherever .... sorry, you don't qualify. Racism is not acceptable anywhere,
although you can be forgiven if you don't realize you're doing it.
I always associated the PP term with phoney and commercial behavior, like you see in the US around St. Patrick's Day, never realized that it was used to brand all emigrants and their children. If it is used to brand a people, rather than condemn a behavior, then use of the term is not acceptable.
I'm with AlBrown... I always associated "PP" with the false, over-gimmiky commercial trend that's been creeping Irish pubs & clubs... especially around St Pats (and unfrotunately i'm guilty of using the term in a recent post)
I had no idea it was offensive in the slightest... and even learned this term off fellow folk musicians. Sorry if it was offencive... no harm intended!
St Patrick's Day here used to be more about being Catholic in a country that had a strong Irish background in its Catholicism; it was hardly about being Irish or not. That's going back decades though, now St Patrick's Day isn't really on the religious radar at all, but it's all about green guinness and big green top hats, and stuff like that. Now, here, it's all about being Irish or not by the look of it.
Well, I'm sort of half-Irish and half-English and I've never considered myself to be mixed race in any real sense of the word. I'm a bit worried here. Standard 10-hole harmonicas are said to be Richter-tuned. A harp that has been retuned to better play Irish tunes is said to be Paddy Richter-tuned. It is a phrase that was coined by Brendan Power and is now univerally used in the little world of harmonicas. I even write a column under that heading in Harmonica World. What I think about all this is that I'm not going to change the title of the column any time soon.
Anyone who is offended by being called 'plastic paddy' by what amounts to an anonymous internet poster really must have paper thin skin. How do you get through the day? It must be really tough being you. For your own good I suggest you reflect on the important differences between harm and offense. Harm is done to you -offense you either accept or don't. The term 'plastic paddy' I would suggest falls in the latter category.
It's necessarily a two way street, especially in what I would consider a trivial circumstance i.e. someone taking umbrage to a fairly innocuous term bandied about on the anonymous internet. I think many people are too quick to take offence, in fact it appears they seek it at every turn. There is of course a wider argument about when does offence become harm? -dehumanising propaganda as a pre-cursor to genocide in many historical contexts -but I don't think this is comparable. I don't see minions massing on the borders of England are the US ready to wipe the scourge of Scruffy Murphy's and O'Hanrahan's off the face of the planet. I think sometimes we have to relax a little in those 'plastic - thin' skins.
"I've recently come across various spiteful references to 'plastic' paddies, and several plastic paddy-related insults have cropped up in recent discussions."
Offensive though it may be to some, is that really 'racism? Such insults are not intended to degrade or intimidate all non-Irish or non-Irish-born people, much less any particular race. They are (presumably) aimed at those who have, or are perceived as having, pretentions to being Irish, despite having tenuous or no family connections with Ireland. I admit, I sometimes find such people comical myself. i fact, I have to laugh at myself for the very same reason - my ancestry is all C. and E. European as far as it can reliably be traced, yet I consider Irish Music my main 'thing', musically speaking, and would not hesitate to sit in with Irish musicians and participate in *their* tradition as if I were one of them. Of course, that's where it ends for me - I don't speak with a faux-Irish accent, wear a shamrock tie or drink Guinness and would think nothing of going to bed early on St. Pat's night.
I might, depending on context, take offense at someone pointing out my non-Irishness in a disapproving way - it would be, in effect, excluding me from a group I had thought I could be part of (I have more often felt this as a result of 'backhanded' comments or non-verbal signals). But I don't consider that. racism - just basic hostility or inhospitality.
Hey, let's promote a Plastic English night! People could dress up as English stereotypes and go out and get bladdered - Scousers in shell-suits and curly wigs, Essex girls in rather-too-visible thongs and orange spray tan, chavs in back-to-front baseball caps etc (let's here some more stereotypes!) What will be the promoted drink of choice, I wonder? lager-tops perhaps, or bacardi breezer. Hang on a mo, we don't need a special occasion - it's like that every night!
Pull your hat over your ears boys, here comes my reply.
I believe that the term plastic paddy exposes the slumbering racism inherent in cultures not Irish towards the Irish. As a product of an immigrant parent to NZ from Ireland in the economic disaster that was the 60s I have never heard the term applied to me or any of my mates anywhere, ever. I have only heard the term applied to those who try to be Irish and go over the top with it. Usually Americans and Canadians of non or little Irish descent. The use of the term exposes the laziness of those who think that they can try and tell jokes at the bar or talk with a bit of a lilt and think that it makes them a little bit closer to Oirland. It has a larger meaning here in Ontario with it's still very active and very deeply entrenched Orange Lodge culture whereby all the horrible stereotypes of what constitutes Irish culture are presented everywhere from the national TV carrier all the way down to having the St Patrick's day parade banned for the longest time and stupid, stupid plastic paddy pubs with leppin' leprechauns and people yelling "top o' da morning". They have no idea, none. They deserve to be exposed at every available opportunity so now the term plastic paddy has come out of the closet and instead of a few lads commenting amongst themselves about someone else it's out front and clear and being thrown at those who would offend with their ridiculous behaviour.
I can see how someone might take offense at the term "plastic paddy," especially if they are truly culturally Irish to some extent but living elsewhere.
But as far as I'm concerned using the word "racism" is going too far, by quite a bit. I've lived my entire life in the Deep South, and I've seen real racism up close. If you think that calling someone a "plastic paddy" is racism, then you don't know what racism is.
There are a lot of African-Americans who would be offended to see the term "racism" used so lightly. I understand how the term "plastic paddy" could be considered offensive to some, but if you call it "racism" then you are saying that you are a victim of racism. Now, can you look a person of African descent in the eye and say that you understand what it's like to be a victim of racism?
“I always associated the PP term with phoney and commercial behavior, like you see in the US around St. Patrick's Day, never realized that it was used to brand all emigrants and their children. If it is used to brand a people, rather than condemn a behavior, then use of the term is not acceptable.”
…probably because my understanding of ‘racism’ via the Deep American South is the same as Marklars’.
I have always used and considered the term to be a correcting force in Irish American culture. We use it to encourage good Irish cultural behavior and to mock the bad, stereotypical, American commercialized version of what people think Irish culture is.
In particular, when dealing with the music, as we do here on ye olde boardo de mustard.
For example, when I play a St. P’s gig, or other such situation, and the expectation when I am hired is that I will sing various tired old pub classics, mixed in among the sets and obscure ballads, in my view, that’s me being a Plastic Paddy to make a few bucks.
When I go anchor the session, and we do our thing in the way most of us here in mustard land appreciate and enjoy, or a ceili, or performing with the local step dancers, then I don’t consider that being a Plastic Paddy at all.
…and, there’s a fine line to draw. How culturally fascist do you need to be before you end up stepping on other people’s toes, interfering with their enjoyment?
Is anyone really hurting anyone by wearing a big stupid green fuzzy top hat, singing “Whiskey in the Jar” 500 times, drunkenly hollering in a fake brogue and drinking until they puke? Well, aside from themselves and my sensibilities, perhaps?
It's not a matter of degree, it's a matter of violence. Terms like "ni**er" and "ni**er-lover" were not really used as insults in the segregated South, they were used as threats.
If someone called you a "ni**er," it meant you'd better stay in your place or there could be trouble. And trouble could be an arrest, a beating, being strung up and burned, etc. And if you were white and people in town started calling you a "ni**ger-lover," you might want to think of moving elsewhere before your house burned down or someone got hurt.
Taking offense at words is one thing, but real racism goes way, way beyond words. The problem with the words isn't the words themselves, it's the history behind them and what they imply.
How many acts of violence can you think of that have been done to "plastic paddy's"?
I think there are two kinds of what is often refered to as "Plastic Paddy".
One is the plastic leprecauns and shamrocks in the plastic pub and the plastic Landlord in his stupid little green hat and effected brogue who thinks he is/wishes he was Irish.
The other is the non-Irish person who simply likes to play Irish music. Is there any connection between wanting to play Irish music and wanting to be Irish? The only way to resolve it is not to look at Irish music being Irish at all. it's just music.
I have to admit that I've used the term to refer to the "Disneylandish" Irish pubs that are way over the top... The glittering green shamrock necklaces given out for St. Patrick's Day, dying the beer green, with obnoxious renditions of the Fields Of Athenry on the loudspeakers... (and the people who frequent these establishments, and act that way all year round, instead of just around St. Patrick's Day...)
So I will plead ignorance for not knowing that it could be considered offensive. But that means we need a more P.C. thing to call these pubs, and the whole associated scene. Is "Oirish" appropriate? Or is that offensive because it "makes fun of the accent"? (Which is sort of its intention... to make fun of the *fake* accents)
And I agree with some other posts here. It's really more culturalism than racism, although, some might argue that there is a Milesian 'race'. But it would be difficult for someone (in the US, at least) to point to someone and say "he looks Irish" in the same way that you could single out people of African or Asian descent.
Um. No. Racism is a lot of things, and there are a lot of degrees of racism, but just because it's "just a little bit" racist doesn't mean it's not in fact racist.
Once upon a time just the term "paddy" was racist to a marked degree, and there's a reason a lot of people thought it was absolutely hilarious in a really sad way that the Irish had a lot of racism show up amongst them when the Polish came to work in Ireland while the Celtic Tiger still roared.
It's tempting to say that a bunch of white people don't know much about racism (comparatively speaking), but that would be racist, wouldn't it?
I've heard the term "plastic paddy" used in a way that made it clear that it was an ironic joke, and I've heard it used, by Irish people, in Ireland, in ways that made it crystal clear that it was a term of abuse and belittled the people they were talking about -- and they were using it in the sense of people who were born of Irish parents in other countries and were coming back to Ireland to live and dared to consider themselves Irish. How do I know that's how they were using it? They told me, straight out in front of God and everybody.
Give it up. The answer is, "no, racism isn't acceptable ANYwhere."
"Racism" is an over-used and devalued term. So is "offensive". It's axiomatic that the least tolerant and most narrow-minded people will be the most easily offended. Do you really want to hand the power of veto over expression to these people?
The Wikipedia entry is a prime example. It only takes one person to decide something is pejorative or offensive and I doubt anyone will dare to contradict them. That is not representative, it is bullying.
So what, you're just going to let people be racist because you think you MIGHT be using an over-used and devalued term? A morally and ethically corrupt stance.
I'd reckon the term Plastic Paddy is quite the acceptable form of 'racism' - there are degrees in everything and a lot depends on the nuance and tone that the phrase is delivered with. There's nothing the Irish like better than a good slag and a few insults. As long as they are taken in the same vein as they are given, absolutely no harm is done.
There's far too much political correctness these days, everything written can become very, very boringgg - so feck off, ye plastic paddies!!
I remember coming home from school once when I was a kid, maybe 5 or 6. I asked my dad for a bit of cah to go buy some sweets or something and when he said no, I called him a "tight dew". I didn't know what it meant, I'd just heard in the playground. My dad went abslutly balistic at me, scared me half to death. And quite bloody right too.
There is no acceptable form of racism. Sorry if you'd like there to be, but there isn't. Try and tell me a situation where racism is a positive and useful thing, if you like, but I doubt you'll manage to convince me.
I thought racism was connected to discrimination against 'races', arguably distinct physical groups (though such distinctions are entirely arbitrary - there's not much to distinguish me from any other human really), not cultural, geopolitical and social groups?
Plastic Paddy is a pretty nasty term, as, arguably, is Paddy in a lot of ways really - but it isn't racist. Is it? Culturalist perhaps? Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's only acceptable for Irish people born abroad and living back in Ireland to call eachother "plastic paddy". Just like it's acceptable for 'people of color' to call eachother "nigga".
Whether you like it or not Zina - at the end of the day 'birds of a feather flock together'. That is a fact of nature and human conditioning along with it.
Tensions always arise between different groups - at what point these tensions become racist is a very variable line.
I'm simply observing that the term 'plastic paddy' does not seem to cross that wavering line in my very humble opinion and understanding of the Irish public psyche.
"It's only acceptable for Irish people born abroad and living back in Ireland to call eachother "plastic paddy". Just like it's acceptable for 'people of color' to call eachother "nigga"."
No, bad analogy. The term "nigga" is a completely different word from "ni**ger" and has a completely different use and meaning. They are not the same word.
The reason that it's inappropriate for while people to use the word "nigga" is because it will be heard as the other word when coming from a white person's mouth.
So you're just going to accept that, and not only accept it, you're going to encourage it?
How very attractive.
No, I'm not racist against this attitude, children. I am bigoted against bigots. And that, my dears, is exactly what some of you look like from these posts.
Split your hairs, define 'til the cows come home, but when you come down to it, the only way things will change is if the people reading this do something about the things none of us like about people. Just remember, when it happens to you...it was your karma.
Life is all about colour and interest - all I'm observing is that in the greater scheme of things calling someone a 'plastic paddy' is not a major disaster. Those who want to be offended will be and the majority that aren't won't give a toss. And as with all these little digs - they often have a little element of truth at their heart!
The question isn't whether "plastic paddy" is racist -- it's whether calling an Irishman a "Paddy" is racist. The plastic part is just an insult, not a racial slur. If you call someone a "dumb n****r", you're a racist for calling them a n****r, not for insulting their intelligence. (Although this particular example probably evidences a belief that all n****rs are dumb.) Calling someone a fake or a fraud is not racist. Calling someone a Paddy might be. (And in this case the speaker is obviously distinguishing the "plastic" variety from the authentic variety, so the implied racism in the other example doesn't apply.)
So is it racist when Irish people get called paddies?
A lot of the differences here are probably coming from the fact that people are speaking from different experiences and histories of racism due to being from different cultures.
I can't speak to how the term "plastic paddy" is used in Ireland, as I don't live there. I can only speak for its use in America. And my understanding of racism is probably very different from that of someone raised in Ireland.
But in any case, I draw the line of racism at threat of violence or other harm beyond the word itself. If the word doesn't have a history of real harm behind it beyond the word itself, then I consider it simply offensive rather than racist.
Note please, Zina, that I'm not saying that it's OK. I'm just saying that it's not racist. Offensive words are bad too.
Has there been violence against "plastic paddys" in Ireland? Does the term cause fear in people? Are they denied jobs and equal treatment? I don't know. If so, then I'd consider it a racist term there.
In the US there is a history of racism against the Irish, but it had nothing to do with them being "plastic paddys."
"So is it racist when Irish people get called paddies?"
Well coming from the perspective of an Irish person - it's not offensive at all to be called a Paddy. Absolutely not. You see, we don't have any inferiority complexes anymore... if you're a Paddy and you're Proud, clap your hands etc. etc........
"My mother in law is adamant that she is not racist, and yet she thinks black people are better dancers than white people. Should I just let it go?"
In my opinion that's prejudice, not racism, there is a difference as far as I'm concerned. Prejudice comes from ignorance, while racism comes from hatred.
So in a sense I think that your mother-in-law is right, she doesn't hate black people or wish them harm, she's just bought into a stereotype and is ignorant of the truth.
Others will disagree with me on this, though, it's an open question really.
...and now we're left with trying to determine how to continue the battle for decent Irish culture (read: not “Whiskey in the Jar” 500 times and giant fuzzy green top hats) here among our fellow Americans without mistakenly using some term that is found to be offensive.
Or, we can just all stop being so damn politically correct and get on with our lives, especially if the Irish use the term right out in front of God and everyone.
Or, perhaps we can do it European Union style and appoint a committee to dictate language to us?
To be honest, being a little insulting towards some yahoo puking on his shoes with a “F—K ME I’M IRISH!!!” T Shirt on is not going cause me to stay awake at night, questioning my political incorrectness.
I think my point still stands. Calling someone of Irish descent a plastic paddy is racist. It's an insult predicated upon racial assumptions, and it's intended to cause offense. Therefore it's racist. Yes it can be funny if it's intended to be so, and it can be insulting too, if that's the intent. There's nothing politically correct about not wanting to be abused because of a historical combination of race and human migration,
Racism is a our distrust and fear of otherness, our xenophobia (sorry Zina ). A survival trait, perhaps, when you’re a barely bipedal savannah ape vying with other bands of rock-throwers for scavenging territory, but in civilized societies it’s counterproductive if not absolutely destructive. Diversity drives creativity.
Yet we humans still identify ourselves within groups, be it fiddlers, egg shakers, session players or pub song balladeers etc. with traits that make each group unique. Is there no room for humorous observation of those shared traits by someone outside the group? I really don’t know.
But wait a minute...if the term is used by one group of Irish people against another group of Irish people--and both groups are ethnically Irish if not culturally so--then how can it really be considered a racial term in the first place, let alone racist? Isn't it really a term aimed against behavior rather than ethnicity?
Robert - I agree, your point still stands, despite everything that's come between. And if it helps people who've never heard it used outside of a US bar/parade context, I've heard it used - and justified - as a term of abuse by "full blood" Irish people against "half breeds" i.e. people like me We're not "trying" or "pretending" to be anything. We're just who we are, more mixtures made by migration. And one of the people who used it in a pejorative sense was from Armagh - I'm sure they'd have taken very kindly to being told they were a "Brit". Not.
Marklar - I completely disagree with your definitions. Racism is the simple belief that one race is superior or inferior to another. If somebody's mother believes black folks are naturally/genetically better dancers, she is making a clear racist statement. Bigotry and prejudice are the negative outward manifestations of a racist mindset. Furthermore "nigga" is not a gentler, kinder version of the word nigger.
And to answer Robert Ryans' question - it's all about the context. A Plastic Paddy Pub is a perfect definition for the folks (as SWFL) described above and designed for the green beer crowd. However, Mick, Paddy, Harpy and several other 19th century slurs, when directed at Irish people with the express intent to put them down and define them as an inferior class of people, is indeed racist.
It's not racist, Robert, it's behavioral. If the President left the light on in the mansion for the Diaspora, and it's on for all of them, then correcting a false, commercial perception of Irish identitiy via a funny term is not racism, it's an attempt to correct a false impression of the culture held by some.
...so if it's truly not used in that way for the majority of the time, so be it.
However, I can't imagine the entire island is filled with Nazi-like bigots eagerly searching out peoples' genetic histories in order to make judgement calls on them. I would imagine you've got a small but vocal group of jerks acting like eejits.
The "N" word is commonly used by some black Americans as a put-down but in that context it's hard to argue it is racist. The context is the key. So words may be offensive but not necessarily racist depending on who is doing the name-calling and who is hearing the words.
"Furthermore "nigga" is not a gentler, kinder version of the word nigger."
Right, it's a different word altogether, I think you missed my point on that one.
But my main point here is that using the term "racist" in this context trivializes the horrors of what I consider true racism to be.
I understand the point about racism being the belief that one race is superior to another, that's technically true. But in my mind the term racist implies some sort of real or implied action based on those beliefs. The KKK isn't feared solely based on what they believe, they are feared based on what they DO.
I guess you could say that my understanding of racism is more of a practical one based on observing actions, and is more about threats than mere insults or attitudes.
>Has there been violence against "plastic paddys" in Ireland?
>Does the term cause fear in people? Are they denied jobs and
>equal treatment? I don't know. If so, then I'd consider it a racist
>term there.
I have a friend whose mother is Irish and whose father is American. His father told me that they decided that after living in her village the whole time they were married up until the time he was about 14, and after the kids never being accepted as Irish that entire time (much less the father, AND they held it against the wife that she married an American), that they should uproot from family and home and go to the US, because both felt that their children would never receive an equal education as their Irish peers. How do you count the cost of that?
It's not just the Irish, or the Americans, or the Brits, or whoever. It's people. My point is that it's not acceptable behavior in anyone anywhere. It's not acceptable to say "oh stop being politically correct" about racism and bigotry as if that's actually some kind of logical point.
Because if we accept it at all, we accept it all.
I like a funny joke as much as anyone. Lately a lot of people have been telling me jokes that sound very very racist but in a way are mainly about the racists and the racist behaviour themselves. Sure, they're funny. I find them ironic and telling. It's not like I don't have a sense of humor. I think it's ironically funny that people are still racist, among other things.
It's just that I don't think racism is acceptable. End of the story. If you want to define "racism" as something that I don't actually mean to prove some other point of yours, go to it, but know that what *I* define as racism is unacceptable behaviour in my eyes and the eyes of a lot of other people.
Do I think we need to use social pressure to make that a worldwide constant social pressure? Damn straight I do. There's no other way that it works. When racism and bigotry is considered something that should be as dead as the dodo, we stand a chance of raising kids who think racism and bigotry is something that should be dead.
It's totally misguided to think of people in terms of race. It's even more misguided to think of people from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales in terms of race. There aren't any races, I'm not even sure there ever were.
Paddy, plastic or otherwise is a cultural term - and if it's mistaken for a racial term then it's just wrong. It doesn't reduce the discrimination that may be implied, but it isn't racial.
Marklar you make some good points - but I'm still very unclear how nigga and nigger are different. I can think of no context, musical, conversational, or otherwise where one word is used differently than the other. Black Americans in a musical context conversely use it to disarm the word amongst themselves - or - remind another that they need to know their place. A double edged sword.
Thank you Pavif for finally stating the obvious - there really is no such thing as race from a scientific standpoint - it's all cultural "us vs them" mindsets that go back to the dawn of time.
"The "N" word is commonly used by some black Americans as a put-down but in that context it's hard to argue it is racist."
Actually, a lot of African Americans protest its use by other African Americans, though it's more about the history of the word than the person using it. But it still relates to racism. We are talking about the word with an "r" on the end here.
That's not to be confused with the word "nigga," which is often used as a term of endearment (though many still consider it offensive). The word with an "r" on the end is never used in that way.
It seems strange that several people have recounted personal experiences of racist abuse involving their denigration as 'plastic', yet others seem unable to move away from their own narrow, culturally-specific and colour-based conceptions of racism and identify that it is unacceptable to these people to be racially abused. Race may or may not exist, but racism does, definitely exist. Even for white people.
Pavlf makes an important point...it's one thing to call *someone* a plastic paddy....but quite another when used as a descriptive of some *thing* which embodies the elements of fake Irishness, isn't it? As a descriptive term for something that has about as much authenticity as green beer I can't see it being a big deal. But as a slur -- and that's what it is -- directed at a person whether by native Irish themselves against themselves or against 'non-Irish' Irish-Americans or whomever, I think that's an entirely different affair. But perhaps I'm just splitting hairs.
yep, jusa. That sort of mentality is just as dangerous as racism, especially when it is erroneously conflated with notions of race. When cultures start to think it's a blood thing it invariably gets nasty from one direction or another.
Jusa, I cross-posted with you but I think I answered your question above.
Zina, I do consider it racist if children are denied equal education because of their ethnic background. So yes, that would be racism.
But that's not the same thing as calling an American with little or no Irish cultural background a "plastic paddy" because he considers himself Irish. So I guess the term could be racist or not depending on context. And where it's used: from your example it seems a much more serious issue in Ireland than here.
Actually there IS a racist slur inherent in "plastic paddy" as used by the Irish people I've heard who defined it as such for me. They mean that their blood is not inherently purely Irish, whatever that's supposed to mean. They mean that those children can never be Irish, even if both parents were Irish who happened to have immigrated elsewhere. This is supposedly inherent in their blood somehow.
I don't think it's actually supposed to make sense in a logical way.
Look, I'm not white, do I have to say? I know what racism and bigotry look like from the receiving end, and even from the Chinese end, as in Hong Kong I'm what's known as an ABC -- an American Born Chinese. Some of the street merchants in Hong Kong will find out if you're a "banana" and charge you more in their shops.
Strange that you should think that because it's cultural it's not racist. The British, in the heyday of Empire, referred to all dark-skinned people, whether African, Asian or Australian, as 'wogs'. It wasn't a distinction predicated on the tedious classifications of 19th Century race theory as such, but it was a racist nomenclature nonetheless. Of course it's cultural, but it's based on a conception of race which, like all conceptions of race, is unutterable crap, as well as being, inherently, racist.
"I don't think it's actually supposed to make sense in a logical way".
That's the problem, it is, but it doesn't.
It is discrimination. Yes. But it's based upon a set of totally imaginary constructs.
Someone in Ireland (with a distinctly anglo-saxon surname, ironically) once asked me if I was "one of our Celtic cousins". I replied that I was 'from' England. He never really spoke to me again.
I don't believe in blood. Such beliefs seem to make it flow more often than not.
The whole notion of "racial purity" hinges on this "us" and "them" dichotomy. And underneath that is the deeper implication of who supposedly "belongs" and who doesn't.; who can claim the right pedigree and language etc.
Wonder if the Normans would have been considered 'plastic paddys'?
For me the question of how the "loaded" word, what ever it is, is intended must be taken into account. Yes, the "N" word (however you spell it) may be offensive to some blacks ( and others) but if you're not black you'll have a difficult time trying to tell someone who is that they ought not use the term. Who is doing the name calling? How is it perceived by those to whom it is directed? Is the intent to hurt or to provoke a response? If so, then what kind of response?
Marklar, I think your belief that it's acceptable to disabuse an individual of their own cultural or ethnic identification in an abusive and demeaning way is quite unacceptable. You seem to be concerned to represent the dangers of racism in the US and make the point that true racism is directed against African Americans. I would say that by your own rationale it's acceptable to tell a black American that they're not African-American, because they have no African cultural connections. I think that very few black Americans have much of a connection to Africa beyond their genomes, yet white guilt decrees that it's unacceptable to mock that self-identification. What's the difference for white Americans of Irish descent?
I'm not saying that there isn't something a little sad and fragile about forming an identity based on the tenuous link of one Irish great-grandparent or something like that, but why use a term of abuse to express that? In a pesonal and demeaning way? It doesn't make sense, other than in the context of bigotry and narrow-minded, self-appointed judgement.
Obviously there are two distinct situations re: "Plastic Paddy"
1. Where bigots and eejits in Ireland act like a$$holes towards others.
2. Where well-meaning and culturally sensitive Americans take exception to obnoxious popular cultural expressions of "Irish" and use teasing and slagging to make their feelings known.
So, where’s the ruling? Guess what? There isn’t one. No one is in charge of it.
The essence of why it’s used is the key, and it takes intelligence and understanding to comprehend that.
Anecdote: Was playing a local festival one year. It’s Florida in February, lovely weather. Had khaki dress pants on, loafers and a white collar shirt. The lads and I had a great time, the crowd dug it, all was well. While coming off the stage, packing up, etc. a gentleman comes up to me and asks me “Why aren’t you dressed Irish?” obviously referring to some of the other acts that day who seized the opportunity to dress up like some sort of horrible auto accident involving a Renaissance Fair, a Scottish Pipe Band and what American hippies think Irish people wear when going on an outing.
“Did you know that it’s the 21st century in Ireland as well? I AM dressed Irish, they dress just like we do! They have Levis Jeans now! They’re terribly excited about it.”
I just can’t help myself sometimes. Is that OK? Am I being racist if I use vicious sarcasm and then come on here afterwards and complain about such ‘Plastic Paddyism’?
Jesus Christ. Any time and energy spent on worrying about the term "plastic paddy" is time better spent practicing yer instruments.
I hope to God the onset of the Obama administration doesn't augur an epidemic of p.c. navel-gazing and communist party-style self-criticism sessions.
And to equate the "n" word with plastic paddy in ANY way is just ridiculous. Don't wanna be called a "plastic paddy?" Don't be plastic. Holy crap...what's so complicated about that?
If someone calls you a plastic paddy only because your parents came from there, then they don't know what it means. If they call you a PP because they think you make too much of your "Irishness", then they are insulting you in a non-racist way. Again - IT IS IN NO WAY RACIST TO CALL SOMEONE A FAKE! To call them a paddy...
That's the point lads. It doesn't matter what words someone uses, WHAT exactly are they doing?
Are they being offended because someone thinks they should be wearing a kilt, a Renessaince Fair shirt with fluffy arms and a giant fuzzy green top hat to sing Irish folk songs and fiddle Irish dance tunes?
Or, are they actling like a bigoted a$$hole based on how their victim was born?
So, to brand the first racist because of the second, is just as small minded as being racist in the first place, and showing the same, shallow level of understanding.
"move away from their own narrow, culturally-specific and colour-based conceptions of racism"
Historically, skin color has been a primary basis for racism. I understand that racism goes way beyond color, and that certain groups of people have been subjected to everything up to and including genocide based on other things than skin color. But "racism" is based on a notion of genetic distinction, and skin color has always been the most common dividing line, so much so that "race" implies a certain skin color. So I don't think it's narrow to focus on discrimination based on skin color when talking about racism.
Now, I know that there's really no such thing as "races" as we're all part of the human race. But it doesn't matter that the concept of "race" is bogus, as long as there are actions and attitudes based on race then the distinctions matter, from a practical perspective anyway.
If someone is beating you because of your ancestry, it's not going to do much good to point out that we're all part of the same family and that "race" is an arbitrary and scientifically false distinction.
SWFL, don't you think that now you know that the term is a pejorative slur that it would be time to come up with another term to replace it when referring to fake, commercialized Irishness?
"Pure Irish" - now that strikes me as funny. The island has been invaded more times than Madonna. Therefore, let me just say I am very proud of my pure Gaelic-Viking-Celtic-Pictish-Danish-Anglo-Roman-Norman-Saxon blood. (Did I leave anybody out? Apologies to any shipwrecked Spaniards I may have neglected....
"Marklar, I think your belief that it's acceptable to disabuse an individual of their own cultural or ethnic identification in an abusive and demeaning way is quite unacceptable."
WHAT??!!! Where in the hell did I say that? Just because I don't think that something is racist doesn't mean that I condone it, give me a break! Racism isn't the only form of abuse in the world, you know.
I don't think that it's appropriate (except maybe in certain cases of actual discrimination) to cry "racism" over something like being called a "plastic paddy," for the same reason that I don't think it's appropriate to equate every leader who abuses power with Hitler. That doesn't mean that I approve of leaders who abuse their power, does it?
"it's not going to do much good to point out that we're all part of the same family and that "race" is an arbitrary and scientifically false distinction"
Perhaps not, but it might do them some good if they actually listened and understood - though to be honest anyone who berates you because of your ancestry has pretty well ruled out appeals to rationality.
I'm sure it is, and I'm not saying that you don't have a right to be upset about it. But you have to understand the kinds of things I think of when I hear the word "racism," things that go way beyond insult and unpleasantness.
Plastic Paddy is a horrible expression. I suggest that we line them all up against a wall and pepper them full of bullets so that we never have to use the expression ever again.
I do understand, you've made it clear. That doesn't invalidate my association of 'plastic paddy' with racism. Your associations may be more extreme than mine, but racism does come in degrees.
I'm not equating being called a plastic paddy with being subjected to a pogrom, but extreme racism doesn't make racism that's less extreme acceptable.
Actually, as the Irish are descendants of the Galicians, it should be more accurate to use the expression "plastic Galician" to refer to Irish, American and a lot of other people. Doing an exercise of free translation I'd say "plastic pepiño".
How easily one slips from a refutation of racism to the advocacy of genocide... All in a day's, erm, work? I think I'd better go and have some tunes and a few pints. See where it's gone when I get back from the pub.
Muhaha!
Hey Rev, I suppose so, but at the same time it feels like being dictated to by the ignorant bigots who use it negatively.
Does that make sense? We can't use it positively because some eejits use it negatively? Hmm, don't think I like that.
For example, if no one used "Paddy" as a nickname for "Patrick" because it once had negative connotations, then the word would have been lost. In addition, those that use it negatively would have ‘won’ the battle of the word ‘Paddy’.
Ultimately, as one of those troublesome Yankees who thinks Freedom of Speech is a great idea (I know, we’re all crazy) the notion of someone telling me what I can and can't say is anathema.
An insult using racism (where/how a person was born) simply reflects poorly on the insulter. There’s no need to get yer knickers in a twist. It ain’t you with the problem, it’s the eejit. No, you can’t make laws and rules to fix eejits. They’ll still be eejits even if you make a law about it.
So, perhaps there’s my beef. It feels like people are trying to tell me what I can and can’t say.
Not that I care all that much, really, it’s more of a principle. I have much more biting ways to address yo-yos expecting me to be dressed like a leprechaun when I’m playing a gig.
"No, you can’t make laws and rules to fix eejits. They’ll still be eejits even if you make a law about it."
That's very true, as the past 50 years of history in the Deep South have proven.
In fact, it can make it worse. A part of the current problems relate to the fact that it's no longer socially acceptable to be openly racist, which has somewhat backfired in the sense that ethnic minorities can no longer tell who's a threat and who isn't, leading to the almost necessary assumption that anyone who is not a part of the same ethnic group is a threat.
SWFL, it's up to you to decide you should and shouldn't say. But it's pretty clear from some of the posts in this thread that the origin of the phrase is as a slur, and we've picked up on it to describe something different.
So would you feel comfortable using the N word in a 'positive context', if it meant something related, but different? (If there could be such a thing...) I think the point that a number of people are trying to make here is it's a slur, and offensive.
So now that I am aware of the origins of the phrase, and know that people use it as such to this day, it makes me want to find another word or phrase to use. Because the use of the term, however innocuously, would reflect upon me negatively in some people's eyes...
And this is a different situation than the "over the top" political correctness. Like calling someone "vertically challenged", because calling them "short" might hurt their feelings...
"And this is a different situation than the "over the top" political correctness. Like calling someone "vertically challenged", because calling them "short" might hurt their feelings..."
Actually, as a person with dwarfism I consider "vertically challenged" to be condescending and mildly insulting (though I don't get upset over it as I know people mean well...). Disability goes along with dwarfism and I find terms like "otherly able" to be even worse, I really do take offense at that one. Do we need a special condescending term for people who can't throw a fast ball?
There's nothing wrong with being called "short" or "disabled," they are accurate descriptive terms with (usually) no malice behind them.
By the way, do I have to throw away my "world's tallest leprechaun" button now? Am I a "plastic paddy" for wearing it on St. Patrick's day?
Then of course there's the person who's been quietly chipping away at the seams of Irishness for years and years eventually being accepted by a couple of the locals and even getting in on the "in" jokes who feels confident enough to be able to call newcomers blow-ins which really makes them more plastic paddy than the plastic paddies themselves...
I think it's important to keep in mind that emigrants from Ireland (and I'm speaking from experience specifically about ones who went the USA here) have settled in other countries.
They can not be expected to drop all connections to their motherland, not on the first day abroad and not two or three or ten generations later.
In the US, I think there is an Irish-American culture all of its own, which should not invite disrespect. The Irish-American culture is exactly as the name indicates: steeped in many of the values and traditions of Ireland, and from the perspective of a people with a few generations of experience in the New World. It's an accomplished culture (look at our contributions to politics, infrastructure, and broader American culture). However, it will always have ties to Ireland and that is part of it.
The fact that it is SIMILAR, and originates from Irish culture, yet has evolved into something quite different, is not a tragedy, and there is almost no need for the term 'plastic paddy.' We're American paddys, and proud of it. We've helped build a new country, which has enjoyed much success in part due to our contributions. We've made it here. We're happy. We're not coming back, and we reserve the right to dye our rivers green and drink Guinness and Budweiser itermittenly. Thanks for your consider elitists.
"... the Irish are descendants of the Galicians ..."
A sweeping statement, if ever I heard one. Some of them might be.
"... it should be more accurate to use the expression "plastic Galician" to refer to Irish ..."
They arrived in Ireland long before plastic was invented. They should be named after whatever the latest man-made material was back then. 'Bronze Galicians'?
My English is a bit poor so I had to search "sweeping statement" in the dictionary. Of course it's a sweeping statement, but I was only refering to the story about the Tuatha Dé Danann and the Milesians. Actually, we have lots of things in common, we are potato eaters too, and play tunes in 6/8. But on the other hand we prefer wine to beer. And spuds came from America...
Oh, I've forgotten what I was to say
"Where does it stop? Does it stop when you remember that you didn't help build a "new" country, you stole it from the people who were already there."
But that's true of almost every country. I mean, there were people in Ireland before the Gauls got there, the Normans didn't exactly immigrate to England, India was settled through conquest, most Aussies aren't exactly native to the continent, and on and on. It's not a situation unique to America. It's been going on for tens of thousands of years, since before recorded history.
of course it's true of almost every country, that's the point I'm making. Just go back generations and keep going. Keep going back to the first humans in the African rift valley and keep going back further. Look for your roots and your kin not in those that appear familiar, but in all the life that surrounds you. from beauty to beasties.
"’No, you can’t make laws and rules to fix eejits. They’ll still be eejits even if you make a law about it.’
That's very true, as the past 50 years of history in the Deep South have proven.”
I don’t think I can accept that point – at least not completely. I’ve lived in the Deep South for sixty-one years and I’ve seen profound changes in the racial attitudes and prejudices of the people. Forty-five years ago, I witnessed Klan thugs beating two black ministers who tried to enter a public library in Anniston, Alabama. Just a few years later, my dad was threatened by some of the same goons bearing shotguns and pistols because he tried to lay a pipeline, using black laborers, along the public right-of-way in front of a service station belonging to the local Klan leader. My parents’ generation (including my dad, despite this incident) tolerated, rationalized and enabled the discrimination and violence. Two generations later, we’ve come a long way.
It’s true, though, that the hard-core racist bigots didn’t just disappear. But, by force of law, they lost the ability to maintain the “tradition” of hatred and shameful treatment of black people. And, by way of the new social order, enforced by law, my generation and the next largely lost the habit of speaking and thinking about black people in the old hateful, demeaning ways. That chain is pretty well broken.
Now, the societal progeny of that old hard-core have taken refuge in various far-right-wing enterprises and are gearing up to aim their venom at Mexican immigrants (illegal and legal). The attitudes and habits of speech and thought that we (Americans) apply toward this new population will have real effects on the way this chapter plays out, whether or not we think they should.
True, Bob, things have gotten better, no doubt. But I'm not as optimistic as I once was, there is still a lot of bigotry under the surface, but it's harder to see it now. Laws have helped a lot with discrimination, but kids are still being raised to hate minorities, though as you say it's to a much lesser degree than it once was.
And yes, it's scary how the anti-Mexican thing has taken off so quickly, and a lot of that stuff is out in the open. Same with people who are Muslim, or just appear to be.
The US of A, for all our criticism which is really aimed at a few rich people pulling the strings, has changed, for the better. I visited the country this year and the only reference I heard to black people was by two Irish men, which is typical.
The "have nots" in any country, created by inequality, are always kept in their place by the "haves" by the simple expedient of giving them someone to hate, and feel superior to. Hence the "poor white trash" in the Southern States and working class urban protestants in N.Ireland.
Now the vitriol is aimed at Mexicans, who amazingly all work for far right rich people. Strange that.
To answer the question, racism should not be tolerated anywhere.
"Now the vitriol is aimed at Mexicans, who amazingly all work for far right rich people. Strange that."
Actually, it was the rich people (not all far right, but wealthy people do tend to lean to the right) who created the situation in the first place.
They brought in cheap labor from across the border and their cronies in the federal government turned a blind eye to it. I've heard from people who would know that a certain chicken processing giant would actually send buses to the border to pick up illegal workers (this was in the late '80s, not sure about now).
That's also why I think that congress pushed stupid ideas like a wall along the border to please the far right-wingers, because they knew it wouldn't do anything and they really didn't want to crack down on the employers. The right-wingers don't like the Mexicans taking over "our" country, but the rich sure like the profit margins they can get with illegal immigrant labor.
I was just wondering why it was that Irish residents, if it's that's who they were, felt the need to call outlanders, re-emigries, exiles, whatever the term one might use, "plastic paddies" ?
Perhaps it's because they themselves felt threatened in some way, their insecurities heightened by these people who were trying to reclaim a birthright, when there has been for a long time within Ireland an unspoken despising of those who, it was felt, had taken the 'easy option' of leaving the country for a 'easier life' in a new land ?
Certainly, from my talking to people in my visits to the US from the late '70s' onwards, I felt that there was an ignorance of current events and political progress in Ireland because the emigries remained fixed in their memories of the old country, and both could only interpret current events through this filter of old enmities, and were also not well served by transatlantic news coverage, which similarly tried to present things in a way acceptable to this mentality. I could see how you could go back to Ireland with this mindset and not be well received.
Of course, a lot of Irish-Americans have gone back, over the years, to try to re-find their heritage. Sean Cannon remarked that they always seemed to be rich, and that they always tried to be kind to these visitors, and of course they would have done the same had they been poor.
He also told of a Texan, driving a large hired car, who pulled up by a farm gate where the local farmer was puffing at his pipe at the end of a day;
"Hey, tell me what you guys do around here ?"
"Why, I'm a farmer, sir."
"Hey, I'm a farmer myself, back in Texas. How big's your farm ?"
"Why, it's forty acres, sir."
"Forty acres ! Back in Texas, my farm is so big I can drive all day, and I haven't seen all of it."
Ah, sure, I used to have a car like that myself onetime."
"Sean Cannon remarked that they always seemed to be rich"
Of course, because poor bastards like me (I'm exaggerating, don't ask me what I drive) can't afford to travel like that. That's where the "ugly American" image comes from: people overseas generally encounter the wealthy leisure class of Americans rather than the average Joe. Personally, I don't care for being represented overseas by people like that.
Racism & racial discrimination categorizes people as inferior or superior dependent on visible traits. The premise is faulty. It is not acceptable.
Robert Ryan, please correct me if I am wrong . . . I believe you are concerned about (similar) discrimination within Irish culture. The discussion could have been about chauvinistic exclusion*. That is tougher. Especially when you ask us about us.
It exists here. It serves no good purpose
I'm not offended by plastic paddy - maybe if I was a man, and my name was Paddy, and I had a lot of prosthetic parts made from modern biomaterials. I would be much more offended by something like Yankee broomdancer, or Arran jumperlette, or Kerry cowgirl, or Nancy wee pastie. It's not racist anyway, it's just mean.
Of course, what's really going on is xenophobia, which is undeniably a part of the human character, but this does not necessarily make it acceptable in this day and age.
Zena's account of her friend having to move because they would never be accepted in a small community is not surprising, but it is sad. Try moving to a small village in Cornwall, Wales, Scotland. Come to a big city like London and everyone will treat you with the same indifference - is that any better ?
This is why we try to make our own communities within music and other special interest groups.
What about people I know who call any local Irish theme pub "The Plastic Paddy"?
As in "meet you down the plastic paddy after work"
Who is supposed to be offended in that situation? Are they just one step away from genocide?
that's pretty good - around here we called the "Horse Brass" pub the Iron Lung, although after the smoking ban goes into effect in January I'll have to come up with a new name. (by the way, apologies to anyone who requires a mechanical breathing apparatus)
Random_Notes, I think I see the distinction you're making, but racism isn't just about visible traits. There's no immediately obvious visible difference between the English and the French, for example, but the historical relationship between the two countries/communities/races/nations/whatever has been fraught with undeniable racial tension. Racism is a word that describes prejudice predicated on false notions of fundamental distinctions inherent to differences in genetic/cultural/linguistic/racial groupings.
Whatever your view of race/racism/prejudice/whatever you want to call it, it's not nice.
Robert, I think that the English vs. French example is more about nationalism than racism. A lot of English are, after all, ethnically French if you go back far enough.
But you're right that it's wrong no matter what you call it. So in a sense it doesn't really matter. The Us vs. Them thing is a problem whether it's based on race, nationality, religion, or whatever.
Bren, I'm not suggesting that people who aren't offended by the term should somehow become offended by it, I'm just pointing out that it is an offensive term to some people. And yes, they are obviously stockpiling machetes in the back of irish theme pubs around the world, readying themselves for the onslaught of blood. Cartoon leprechauns are the devil's own, believe me. Quake in fear whenever you see them.
Yeah, Marklar, I don't believe in 'race' or 'blood' or any of that 19th Century twaddle either, but racism is the handiest descriptor for the kind of abuse that has as its foundation the dislike and denigration of an 'other' simply because they were born in another country. That's the use of the term that I object to.
Hugo, the point is that he's your mate. That's kind of what I said in the first post: that there's a difference between a bit of slagging, racial or otherwise, between friends, and that between strangers. It's all about intent, innit?
I have never herd this term used except on this board. I would laugh if someone called me that in the real world. I can't understand 180 responses. If they were tying 'plastic paddies' to fences and beating them up it would warrant some discussion. If 'plastic paddies' were being denied the right to get married or the right to vote maybe... but c'mone!!! If your an American of Irish ancestry why care what someone in Ireland thinks of you. If you get off on dressing like a big dumb lepurchaun and singing Wild Rover after 26 green Coors Lights here's to ya! Have a good time!
Regarding the term in question. I'd only heard it in terms of sh*te pubs over in the uk. But from what has been pointed out very eloquently above, it sounds like there is a nasty streak "battening down the hatches", trying to exclude, keeping everyone out, even though they might be their 2nd cousin.
I have no idea if that has any basis in reality, just my thoughts from reading the thread.
ok Marklar, sorry, I get where you're coming from. A thousand apologies. I've been commenting as I've been reading. The thread is long. Life is short. Etc. Once again, sorry.
And if anyone wants to know my attitude, I think any sort of discrimination stinks in this day or age. Racism, obviously; and whatever ism you want to add to the equation. Personally speaking, I'm apparently a manic-depressive... do I want you to filter anything I say through that? Well, if you're beginning to think you want to, let me just add that 12 months ago I wasn't a manic-depressive. At least, according to the doctors, my family, my friends, my acquaintances, my all the fecking people I'll ever meet again to whom I now have to take a different attitude to. Should I lie or not? Personally speaking, I think these diagnoses are not worth the sh*te on the walls they're scrawled in.
yes -shamrockery. has the word exclusion been mentioned yet? I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that not being accepted (for no good reason) feels a lot different than being hated for no good reason. And sorry to hear about MD MM.
How about "Shamroguery" or "Shamrogues"?
Whatever way you look at this there is a negative element to finding a word to describe something you don't like. But surely it is acceptable to if it is done to explain why you feel a certain way about something rather than to specifically deride a person.
I know and respect a person who also happens to be guilty of the most awful Shamroguery at times - likes to belt out Danny Boy in his operatic baritone and fails to understand why I don't really seem overjoyed at the prospect of accompanying him. Outside of this erroneous behaviour the man is a caring genius.
If I have an Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Chinese/icelandic/indigenous (nominate your whatever ethnic heritage you want) background and choose to identify as a person of that ethnicity, then I would expect people to respect my decision and acknowledge my ethnicity. I find it surprising that some on this board feel they are in a position to judge others on these matters.
i find myself surprised and offended by most of what i have read here. i'll Bow Out with this: i wish y'all would quit callin' us Yanks!
Bye Now,
Pipewatcher
Pipewatcher, you'll be pleased to know that we also have a term here: "Plastic Yank" - so feel free to join the ranks of the Even More Mortally Offended.
I've avoided comment here so far as I don't usually fare too well in these type of threads and have been known to cause International incidents in the past...
The thing is that over the years many of us and especially our parents have used terms or words which we would now consider to to be unacceptable. In the geat majority of these situations, there was no ill intent meant and we(they) wouldn't have considered ourselves to be racist. If anything at all, it was just "ignorance".
Now, of course, we realise that the "N" word is very offensive and wrong along with many other words and expressions. We are now more aware and "politically correct" (Though this has become a derogatory term by the more bigoted people who are resistant to change), I suppose.
Like many people here, I have also used the expression "Plastic Paddy" but was ignorant of its full meaning and history. I really thought that it just referred to those who performed or enjoyed "over commercial and watered down Irish music/ballads" which you encounter in so called Irish pubs around the world specifically for tourists and those who only have a superficial interest.
So, I thank Robert for drawing this subject to our attention and, personally, I will not use this expression in future. Of course, I haven't meant any harm up until now but that would be no excuse or defence for me to continue to use such an expression (or any other) now that I've been made aware of its history and full connotations.
My faith in the potential for debate and intelligent exchange on this discussion board has been restored. I had assumed that most people were aware of the offensive nature of this term, but that clearly wasn't the case. I do acknowledge that it is only truly offensive when directed against individuals in order to denigrate their identities, and those who use it in that context will no doubt continue to do so. But I would hope now, after what has been quite an extensive and largely intelligent debate, that other users will be less tolerant of those who choose to direct this term of abuse against individuals here on the discussion board.
Happy tunes people.
RR.
Nice one.
Well I feel I havo say i am an imigrant into Ireland. I have lived here for almost 12 years and I have NEVER heard the term Plastic Paddy used here. People who return here after living elsewhere are often referred to as having come home. I am asked occasionally by someone I meet for the first time "When did you come home" and I am English (NOT I Might add a "Brit", that is a term I find offensive) and of Irish descent. I have been referred to as an Englishman but Never plastic Paddy. Maybe I go around with my ears shut or something. I found however that as a child living in Sheffield England in the 1940's I was often bullied and beaten because I was seen as an "Irish Catholic" and the term used "We Cruxify catholics" in the process, now that is real racism, I think I would rather have been called a Plastic Paddy that wouldn't have hurt at all, the beatings most certainly did.
In case there's any remaining doubt, take a look at the following definitions, gratefully received by email. Of particular interest is #4, where the term is utilised in what was, personally, a previously inconceivable sectarian context:
Robert, you raise a good point, because I think a lot of the disagreement in this thread is coming from the different ways that the term can be used. In some cases is seems fairly benign, but used in other ways it does seem racist, or at least bigoted in some sense.
When it's used to denigrate someone who lives in Ireland for not having full Irish blood and being a "half-breed" or because they are protestant or something like that, then it's clearly bigoted. I didn't know that it was used in that way, so thanks for educating me on that. I had thought it was just a term for people claiming to be Irish because of a distant relative or because it's convenient on St. Patrick's day or something.
But in which sense was it used against you? Not that there is any excuse for it, if it hurt you then it hurt you, and I'm not trying to belittle that.
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
There's plastic shamrocks on the walls, there's Guinness and green beer
And a sign in Gaelic above the bar which says "God Bless All Here!"
His guitar sounds like a wardrobe, and it's out of tune at that
His singing voice it ranges from F-sharp to F-flat
He's just desecrated "The Holy Ground", ripped apart "Black Velvet Band"
Sang, "Seven Nights Drunk" and now he's sunk "The Irish Rover" with all hands
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
The publican's a Proddy Scot by the name of McIntyre
Who does not allow collections for "The Men Behind The Wire"
He's done awful things to "Molly Malone" and the fair "Rose Of Tralee"
He's murdered "Carrickfergus" and poor old "Mother McCree"
He's thrashed his way through "Galway Bay" and "The Wild Irish Rose"
And if he starts singing "Danny Boy" I'm gonna punch him in the nose
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
There's Aer Lingus poster everywhere showing pretty Irish scenes
All peaceful and idyllic, and very bloody green
"When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" and "The Mountains of Mourne"
In his search for Celtic cliché your has left no stone unturned
Till he embarks upon "The Harp Once Through Tara's Halls"
Accompanying himself of the bodhran which takes a lot of balls
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
He's just sung in his mother tongue, the ancient Irish Erse
And cleared the pub completely by the forty-second verse
Yes he's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
He's started singing "Danny Boy" so it's time that I was gone
And just one thought comes to my mind as I stagger out the door
Where are you when we need you Christy Moore?
Robert, I just noticed from your bio that you live in England, and of course your last name is Ryan. If you come from an Irish family and are called a "plastic paddy" for living in England, then I can definitely see why you're offended.
That's very different from calling an American with a great great great great uncle who came from Ireland a "plastic paddy" for claiming to be Irish just because it's fashionable, which is how I understood the term.
Oh, it's been trotted out on too many occasions to be recounted really. A classic and easily generalised example would be the drunk Irish girl (non-musician) who started talking to me between sets of tunes, heard my English accent, asked what I was doing playing Irish music, if I had any Irish connections, then said, 'Ah, you're only a f u c king plastic paddy, then', when I told her where my parents are from. It wasn't meant as a joke, and obviously the problem is hers, but it's not exactly great craic, and I'm bored of it now. I generally keep my self to my self when I'm out and about, but when people inquire, I don't like to be deliberately rude. I used to be a lot more sensitive to it when I was younger, but it still winds me up. The 80s were not a great time to be part of the Irish community in England, in many respects. Irishness was not 'cool' then as it is now, for political reasons, so in some sense first generation Irish got it from both sides simultaneously: too Irish in England, and not Irish enough in Ireland.
When my parents' generation came to Ireland in the 50s and 60s, and throughout the Troubles of the 70s and 80s, the Irish were heavily discriminated against in every way, including institutionalised police violence. It's understandable in those circumstances, I believe, for Irish immigrants to be wary of English society, and to create a strong Irish community, which their children quite naturally become part of. Irish identity wasn't something that my generation adopted, we were given it by our families, and those of us who were lucky enough to go 'home' on a regular basis felt it as something entirely natural, if difficult because of anti-Irish sentiment in England, and anti-English sentiment in Ireland. That's why I am so 'thin-skinned' about this subject, and why I would like to see this term put to rest.
I think the description most people of my background have given to themselves is London-Irish, which seems fair enough, but some people feel the need to offend against that, and I personally think it's none of their business how I identify myself. I have my reasons, and people, I feel, should be able to respect that.
Ah, OK, now I can see why you're so upset. I had no idea that the term could be so offensive, I'd only heard it used jokingly against Americans who were being silly. Never used it myself, because it could be used against me considering that I'm an American of Scots-Irish descent with no connection to the culture aside from playing Irish music.
Anyway, I think we've learned something valuable here, or at least I have, and it only took 200 posts to get there.
SWFL (and fellow travellers) - I no longer care if I'm allowed to stay on this board or not, so for F U C K ' S S A K E could you please just stop digging? And READ the earlier comments in this thread?
Yep, well said Robert (yes, I'm back, so ye detractors may shove yer opinions up where it may hurt most) - as a Scot in England I have suffered abuse because of it but all it did was make me think less of the persons who made the remark (at the back of my mind I would be thinking "oh, so THIS is racist abuse - how interesting - why do they bother doing that, can't they find something else about me to pick on, eg, that I'm a vastly superior intellect, musician, athlete, more handsome than them, and so on?" )
But of "Racism" within these islands (I don't care whether it is not strictly "Racism" - that term will do for these purposes, we all know what we're talking about, so leave the semantics out of it thanks), my belief is the worst I've seen is Scots abusing English people resident in Scotland. As if they were personally responsible for hundreds of years of wars between the two nations. I have never been subject to that amount of abuse reciprocally down here.
Yeah, no matter what shape or form it takes, it doesn't, ever, do any good. Being comfortable in your heritage, secure in your identity, shouldn't necessitate the abuse of one whose heritage or identity is different, surely? I imagine the inadequacies originate elsewhere, in more personal repsects, but they often find expression in the collective, mob-mentality that underlies racism. Or whatever you wnat to call it.
Just to clarify my objection to the term "racism" from an American perspective, in America anyone of Irish descent is simply considered to be "white." There is a history of abuse of the Irish in America, but unlike many other ethnic groups that is largely gone now.
So you have to understand that for a person of Irish descent to complain of racism in America could be quite offensive to people of African, Asian, Native American, etc. descent, because of the history here.
Not that it really matters, abuse is abuse, just wanted to clarify why I oppose the use of the term "racism" in this context from an American perspective, but it's a whole different thing for people in the UK and Irish Republic.
I am of Norwegian, Swedish, Dutch, and English heritage. My great-grandfather wrote about his struggles with his family when he decided to marry someone that was not Swedish. My grandfather also encountered problems when he (full-blooded Norwegian) wanted to marry (and did) the daughter of the "mixed marriage."
Being lumped into categories is offensive to begin with, but then further insulting to be considered "white."
I've always been proud of my heritage as are the folks from where I hail, North Dakota. Try telling them that they aren't Norwegian because they don't live in Norway. (or Icelandic, or Swedish, etc.)
The thing that is offensive is just that, folks telling other folks that their blood ain't blue enough, or green enough, or black enough...
I'm being pedantic, but it is worth bearing in mind that monopolising racial victimisation in those (forgive me) black and white terms, is unhelpful, as well as somewhat narrow-minded and a little bigoted. There have been many racist attacks by black people against whites in the USA, and for black people to be offended by whites complaining of this is just not tenable. It might be worth bearing in mind that the standards of the USA are not universal, and that just because people of colour (I hate that phrase, sorry) might be offended by an Irish-American's complaint of racist victimisation, it doesn't invalidate it as a real and harmful event. Words have different connotations in different contexts, but some words are offensive to some people, regardless of intent. That's why enlightenment is so helpful, and ignorance so harmful.
Marklar ~ the Irish in the states were, at one time, mocked as being of a race less than human. Hopefully that history is in the past.
"Race" , as a term, is not universal. Largely due to faulty stereotypes about peoples (races?). In some conversations the term is understood. Other times it makes for a slippery slope.
Racism is racism. Period. It doesn't matter if it's in America or elsewhere in this wide world, it doesn't matter if the recipient is white or black or purple.
Some of the worst bigots I know are black. I know some horribly bigoted Asians. (Did you know that the most used word for "white people" in Chinese literally means "ghost"? For years and years, and for all I know, still in some places, white people aren't considered human.)
If someone in the US wants to take offense at a white person who says they're the target of racism, they can certainly do so, but that attitude should be the target of every thinking person's disdain.
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean bigotry against someone who is of mixed African and Irish descent (which is not uncommon)? Unfortunately, in America anyone with even a small amount of African ancestry is treated as a "black person," and discriminated against accordingly. Hence Obama is considered a "black man," though it's complete nonsense all around. But that's the history and the reality of it.
wyogal, it's a bit ridiculous to be lumped into any category such as "white," "black," etc., but I'm talking about the reality of the way that things are, not the way that things should be.
Is that supposed to be a point of some kind? I'm not saying anyone shouldn't talk about someone being different. Vive le difference. I'm saying that the point of view that "other people don't get to feel that they're as discriminated against because *we're* so much more discriminated against than they are" is not a well-thought out stance.
"If someone in the US wants to take offense at a white person who says they're the target of racism, they can certainly do so, but that attitude should be the target of every thinking person's disdain."
Wait a minute, you guys that are talking about racism against "white" people by "black" people in the US, are any of you actually from the US?
I can understand that position for someone from another country, but if you think that anger at "whites" by "blacks" in the US is the same thing as racism against "blacks" by "whites", then you have a serious lack of understanding of the history and current situation here.
No Marklar, anger is an emotion. Racism is not. A group of black guys who kick a 'cracker' to death are not being angry, they are being criminally, murderously racist, in exactly the same way that a group of white boys are when they shoot a 'nigger'.
It's not about white gulit making black racist acts acceptable, it's about having the same standards for everyone. It's called equality, something I believe many people in the USA fought for for a long time, and which has still not been achieved. It's worth fighting for, and it's important not to make allowances for people simply because they've had a history of abuse. That is racist, and does not promote equality.
One of the worst examples I've ever seen of racism was that Korean family who moved into a black ghetto and opened a grocery store. They were threatened on the street, things were thrown through their windows, someone set fire to the store.
Why? Because they weren't black.
My black friends were besides themselves with anger, shame, and fear. They had become by extension, the wrongers instead of the wronged, one told me.
Don't try to get all holier than thou on me, Marklar.
Calling acts of black agression directed against whites 'anger' and acts of white aggression directed against blacks 'racism' is making a very dangerous and racist distinction.
Well, OK. I'm not "black" myself, but I've spent a lot of time discussing things like this with people who are, and believe me when I say that many of the things being said here would be considered extremely racist and offensive to many, and at the very least ignorant.
I take the point that any sort of bigotry is wrong, but you absolutely cannot ignore context and history when it comes to this. It is attitudes like this that perpetrate racial tension here in the US. I don't think that you guys have any idea how this looks through an African-American person's eyes. And to dismiss their feelings because you think that all bigotry is equal shows a real lack of understanding of race relations.
There is a difference between hate and anger. There is a difference between insults and lynchings. I don't think you guys understand this.
"it's important not to make allowances for people simply because they've had a history of abuse"
The reverse discrimination ploy. Wish I did not have to go off to work. That is my lot.
What about former colonies which are now suffering in the aftermath? Any responsibilities from the former empires?
If plastic paddy was invented by the Irish themselves as a kind of derogatory slur for "outsiders" or even when it's jocularly used amongst themselves as Chavez comment above seems to indicate it still strikes me as a bit bizarre. Americans don't have a slag term for themselves, nor do Candians. In fact I can't think of anyone who does except the Irish! So, in ann odd sort of way it actually strikes me as a kind of SELF racism or 'reverse racism' if you want to call it that.
This self flagellating 'humour' seems to be a peculiarly Irish trait. Joyce himself noted that when he said, "ireland is the sow that eats its farrow"....I never quite understood it until now [although joyce was referring to another even in Irish politics of the time]
Mark, just so you know? Most people of color that I know in the US would look at your posts and not know whether to laugh or to cry.
How does a landslide start, Mark? How does the avalanche begin?
No one is dismissing anyone's feelings. The great majority are pointing out that those feelings are in fact shared by a great many people and can be empathized with by many, and that should be respected all around.
One of my friends who is black once told me that she cannot live her life trying to make her white friends pay for things that happened long ago, all she can do is fight to make sure that it doesn't happen to anyone else, of any color, ever again.
The problem is that you guys are up on your high horses talking about ideals, while ignoring the practical realities of the situation.
Yes, black-on-white violence is every bit as racist and criminal and wrong as white-on-black violence. But if you don't understand why people feel the way they do and where all this anger and hate comes from, then nothing will ever change.
If you have the attitude that blacks have no right to be angry about their history because they are expressing it in bigoted and wrong ways, then in a sense you are right about their behavior but wrong about their feelings, and nothing is going to change, which is a huge problem.
If you try to understand where that black person is coming from and why they feel the way they do, you might have a chance of changing things for the better.
I'm not talking about high-minded ideals here, I'm not even talking about right and wrong. I'm talking about practical reality.
Oh, random, like, erm, do you mean ME, because I was born in Britain?
Or like the English people I mentioned above being abused by Scots because they were born in England?
100-odd years ago the English *and* Scots put their own children down mines and up chimneys, never mind those of nations whom they enslaved.
I think the point is that black people don't have a monopoly on racist victimisation. Why is that so difficult to understand? It's not racist, it's not bigotted. Why don't you respond to Zina's point about black racism towards Koreans? Why do you feel the need to defend black people who aren't even being attacked here? This is a thread about racist abuse doled out by white people to other white people. It happens, it's not impossible to understand. If black people in the US imagine that their historical suffering is minimised by the racism experienced by white people, they should chill out, it's in their minds, as I think most of the 'extremely racist and offensive' comments you perceive are in yours. Nobody's trying to minimise the reality of racism towards blacks in the US, but you're trying to minimise the racist experiences of others. I don't think you have a right to do that, whether you're black, or your friends ar eblack, or whatever colour you. Nobody's out to get you here.
Yes, Danny, the whole point about anger is about class, and social exclusion, not race, which is itself a 19th Century capitalist invention. Poor black people in the US have a right to be angry, just as poor white people there have the same right to be angry about the same thing: social exclusion.
I know that black people aren't the only victims of bigotry, I'm speaking about them because that's the sort of bigotry I've seen all my life and know from first-hand experience, and also because it is one of the most severe forms of it, especially where I live.
I don't know much about bigotry against people of Asian descent because I haven't seen much of it first hand where I live, aside from being called a race traitor once for dating someone with Chinese ancestry.
I'm not trying to defend bigotry in any form or make excuses, I'm saying that for a person who is considered to be "white" to complain of racism in the US is going to be seen as offensive by many people. I've seen the anger caused by this attitude first hand.
And again, I'm not talking about the way things should be, I'm talking about the way things are.
Zina, please try to understand. I don't think we are as far apart on this as you think.
"The problem is that you guys are up on your high horses talking about ideals, while ignoring the practical realities of the situation."
Nope. The problem is that you're not talking about how to fix anything, you're just talking on and on about what you perceive to be the problem, which, as Rob says, isn't actually the point of discussion. NO ONE has run down blacks here, and no one has been discussing that except for, apparently, you. If anyone is being racist at all, it's you, because you seem to want to refuse to believe that anyone else's suffering might reach the level of those you believe are genuinely suffering.
There is only one practical reality of the situation. Racism is bad, in any form, by anyone.
Most people have things that they're bigoted about, but good, thinking people know that these are prejudices that aren't right to hold and to act upon, and so regardless of how they feel or privately think, they don't act upon them. I admire and salute these people, because they're the ones who are bringing up their kids differently, who try consciously to bring up a new generation who won't hold views or prejudices that they know are wrong.
That is the reality and the only practical way of dealing with the situation.
And your black friends who are angry because white people are complaining about being prejudiced against? They're being racist. And I say that as a person of color. And to be provocative, of course, although I'm not nearly so good at that as, say, Dow.
Marklar, I'm glad you've clarified your position, but it might have been helpful to do so a little earlier. If you believe that it's wrong for things to be the way they are, then don't defend them so vociferously and then wonder why people come crashing down upon you with their opinions.
It's obvious that this is a subject very close to your heart, and that you abhor racism perpetrated by white people against blacks. But it's quite understandable why people thus far have misunderstood your position.
Zina, please read my post above, and try to understand. I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from, maybe that's my fault, but your reaction doesn't match how I feel, and frankly I'm hurt that I'm offending you. And I'm sorry for that.
Until you've experienced racism it might seem like something exclusively aimed at non-white people but I'm a white male and I've experienced racism directed at me by another white male.
My name is not Paddy but at one time I lived in London and one particularly ignorant English person called me 'Paddy' using a very derogatory tone of voice. That was the first time I actually understood what it must be like for black people to be called 'n*gger'.
I'd warn anyone not to call any Irish person a 'Paddy' unless they are actually called Paddy.
To quote a story I heard. A man called Padraic was a bar tender in London, an English man walks into the pub and asks him his name. Upon hearing his name is Padraic he asks him 'Can I call you Paddy then?' 'No you may certainly not' replies Padraic.
Thing you've got to understand is that the term 'Paddy' when applied to an Irish person, particularly by an English person, is just as offensive as any white person calling a black person a 'nigger'. There is a similar historical context for it.
This seems to be lost on society today. It's not so long ago I saw Martin Johnson, the former English rugby captain refer to the Irish rugby team as 'The Paddies' on the BBC. There was no uproar or scandal about this, imagine what it'd would have been like if Gary Lineker described the Nigerian football team as 'The N*ggers'.............
You know, this all reminds me of that Beatles song about "We Can Work It Out" if you'll only just listen to ME and do things MY way, because then you'll see everything will be just fine.
Seriously, Mark. I give you lots of points for trying to do things right, and trying to see things the way that your black friends do, and to try to defend their position. But that position is flawed in a couple of different ways, as mentioned above. Do read and try to understand.
No worries Marklar, I guess you just left out some important points when you were posting. It's easily done.
Have you heard of a book called 'The Redneck Manifesto' by Jim Goad? It's a somewhat provocative treatise on the historical consequences of indenture as an engine of economic migration. Some of it will probably make you angry, but it will certainly make you think, and it is largely intelligent and well-written. It deals with the way in which large numbers of poor whites from Europe came to British America, and the United States, and how their colour essentially refuses their descendants the status afforded to the descendants of slaves, despite the obvious economic and social hardships they have in common.
It also deals with the use to which racism has been put to divide blacks and whites, who have more in common with each other than with their rulers, by utilising 19th Century race theories and notions of racial superiority. The same thing happened in Britain during the Empire period: it's easier to control a working class population who believes themselves part of a master race in common with their rulers when you've got a global supply of dark-skinned scapegoats.
I've met that drunk girl many times Robert. There's one notorious one here in Tronna. I think you'll find that invariably they're the sort of person that listens to Boyzone or Garth Brooks and Neighbours is as far as international studies go. You present a threat to their notion of Irishness, they neither speak the language nor play the music, they probably subscribe to armchair republicanism or the boyfriend plays full forward for some GAA team (same thing in many eyes), they think ITM is that feckin' diddlyeye sh*te, they can't dance a set but they're the first ones up giving it two left feet after 6 pints, they can't finish the first line of any song but are the first to roar out blaming everyone else for not finishing it with them. They're the ones throwing rubbish on the street outside the chipper after the session because they can't be arsed walking over to the bin and who are you telling me to pick it up, this is my effing country. They are a generation who have no understanding of the consequences of the struggle for independence, civil war and subsequent nationhood but they were born there and who the f*** do you think you are telling me that Kylie isn't an Irish name, sure I know dozens of them on my street.
Hey Just a Person. If there was one thing this thread needed, it was a good laugh, and for everyone to relax. Don’t like Eric Bogle’s song? Sheesh. Everyone’s a critic.
Relax, you’ll live longer! But, I suppose it's much more fun to carry on with righteous indignation.
It was somewhat fatuous SWFL, and it hardly contributed anything intelligent to the debate. Bogle's song is well out of date. And it's pretty 'plastic' itself, conforming to all the conventions of amusing, stage-Irish performance of its day.
Yes Zina, I'm trying to understand. We are coming from vastly different experiences I think, but I don't think that our core sentiments about racism are very different when you really get down to it.
I think that I expressed my feelings poorly, and I'm sorry for that. I'm not trying to defend bigotry by blacks against others, I'm just trying to understand it and deal with it in an effort to change things. I'm not saying I condone it, my feelings are the opposite, I just want to understand it because I really, really want things to change.
Where I live there is a long history of tension between white and black people, and nothing ever seems to change, and no one seems to really understand where anyone else is coming from, and things continue in a cycle of hate and anger and retribution. And that's an issue that I care about a lot, because it affects me, and I've been a witness to it since childhood.
One final point and I'm going to try to stay out of this because it's getting painful for me: when two groups of people hate one another, blaming one another for their actions--rightly or wrongly--serves no good and helps to continue the cycle of hate and anger.
I think that the only way out of this is to try to understand where the other side is coming from, even if you can't quite succeed. No matter how terrible the actions of the other side, if you can't set your own feelings aside and try to understand them then you will never be able to open true communication and solve the problem. This goes way beyond race relations and is at the root of much of the violence, war, and hatred in the world, I think.
Just because anger is justified does not mean that it's a good idea to cling to it and act on it. Just because your position is right does not mean that your actions based on it are the right way to go. At some point both sides have to understand the past and then let it go, but understanding has to come first.
Maybe I'm wrong in the things I'm saying, I don't know, and I'd like to know if so. But my intentions are good, and I hope that everyone at least understands that much about how I feel.
Ian, I've noticed that the only time people say that is when it's something *they* don't care about and other people do. "Righteous indignation" seems to be all on your side, there, by my observation...
Mark, I don't think our viewpoints of racism are all that different either. We both agree that it's bad. I just happen to see it as a global thing, not just specific to one small area or group of people.
A victory against racism for one group of people is a victory against all racism. To whine that one group is more oppressed than another is simply to amplify and send the racism off in another direction.
None of us are going to change how our generation is bigoted and racist. We just aren't. No matter how much we argue here, it won't change anyone's insides unless they want it to. What we CAN do is raise generation on generation of children who understand that we don't have to act on our racist feelings and thoughts, and we can make it clear that we expect others to do so.
Social pressure is demonstrably the ONLY thing that actually changes people. Even if it's through the magic dangling carrot of money, of success, of luxury. Those are all social pressures, but the most effective one is "what will the neighbors say? what will my new girlfriend think? will I be less successful if I do or say this racist thing?"
And it starts with the little things. Don't call people racist names, ANY people. The more you dehumanize people, the more it's okay to do bigger and worse things to them.
And don't tell people who feel dehumanized or that there's prejudice against them that they aren't being so if they'd only just compare it to *this* experience. It devalues what people have gone through...which is just what you don't want to do.
Lord, that was a long read! I think the point about the girl in the pub, RobertRyan is that she was drunk. When people are drunk they either talk total tosh which you just ignore unless you're very stupid or drunk yourself. Sometimes though before inebriation has completely set in, they score in on a little perceived weakness by making a hurtful comment that they mightn't when sober.
Reading between the lines, I might guess that you have some reservations/ sense of inferiority about your Irish ancestry and being Irish in the UK. So that's really for you to address - if you were perfectly at ease with your situation you wouldn't care one way or the other about such comments. That's sounds harsh but really it's at the heart of it.
As pointed out several times above, the Irish love to backstab and bring people down - there is also a long tradition of telling jokes against yourself, self deprecating humour - slagging etc. I don't think you're going to change that. Yes, you point out that's OK between 'mates' but isn't that what people who contribute regularly on this forum are in a sense?
Erm, no. And there's been plenty of examples of people who weren't drunk giving the exact same sort of reaction.
Honestly. Do you think that Robert and Just A Person and others on this thread are just making it up? Puhlease. That's one of the most condescending things I've ever read from you, Hussar, and that's saying a lot.
Ah Zina!, luckily I don't bother taking offense - I'm a very easy going chap and haven't a racist bone in my old body.
Well, truthfully I suppose I have some small reservations about the large number of economic migrants to Ireland in the last few years - except many are now leaving as employment goes down the swallowhole. But in saying that, I would share it in common with the vast majority of other Irish citizens but there's nothing personal in it. Just a sad note that many ways of Irish rural life have been swept away in an ever quickening current of change.
And there are many minorities even within Irish society - myself, I come from what be called a minority cultural tradition in Ireland and I'd be aware that my in laws might look on that in one way but I don't have any inferiority complex about it. You accept who you are, slag back as required and get on with it.
No, Hussar, you might do. Not everyone is like you. And if I'm in a pub, I'm generally a bit drunk. I did ignore what she said, but it still offended me. I think the ambiguity of being born to Irish parents in England, being raised to be Irish in a 'foreign' country, might explain my offense and unease at being insulted in this way, as I've explained. Your tupenny psychology about inferiority complexes doesn't explain much. It's just hackneyed second-hand Freudian psychology. No offense.
Hussar, you are worse than a racist, because not only are you willing to look past your own and other people racism, but you're willing to condone and further it. Perhaps you'd also like to argue that women ask for rape?
As for the other thing...hey, screwdrivers are widely available there, I'm given to understand.
Slagging is one thing. Backstabbing and trying to bring people down are another, and they're nothing to be proud of nor to try and keep going as a national trait.
"And don't tell people who feel dehumanized or that there's prejudice against them that they aren't being so if they'd only just compare it to *this* experience"
That's not really what I meant. Like you said, I'm coming at this from a local point of view, and I'm focused on relations between "white" and "black" people in the South because that's what I know and have seen. I'm not ignoring the problems elsewhere, I'm simply ignorant of them.
I can't speak to how things are elsewhere and for other groups, because I don't know, and I don't pretend to know.
There are small towns here with "don't let the sun set on you..." signs, the police are still very much feared (with good reason), the legal system is very much not color blind, the KKK has gatherings here, etc., etc. And I've seen my own friends and family members perpetrate and enable this sort of racism. No "white" person here endures such things. There is a lot of injustice here, and it's almost all going one way.
I realize that when I say that it's potentially offensive for a person who's considered "white" to complain about racism it can seem ridiculous to people who live elsewhere, but I'm really just speaking about where I live, which I realize is inappropriate on an international forum like this.
I also realize that it's ridiculous for me to be speaking for African-Americans when I'm "white," but I'm speaking about the reactions I've seen and the viewpoints I've heard from African-Americans themselves, though obviously they don't all agree on this and many see things differently, which is why I said *potentially* offensive.
Keep in mind that I live in an area with a history of slavery, segregation, etc. and the wounds are far from healed and the problems are far from solved. So please try to take my comments above in that context. For a "white" person to complain of racism here is different than the same in another part of the country, let alone another part of the world.
But I should have kept the international context of this forum in mind, so I failed miserably there. So really, my position was wrong, because I was imposing the standards of my local area onto the entire world, and it doesn't apply that way. But I really want you to know where I was coming from.
I think you've explained yourself more than adequately, Marklar. Everybody makes judgements according to their own experiences: that's the reason so many people are unable to empathise with the abuse that's been described above - simply because they've never experienced it, and they lack the imagination required in the absence of experience.
Well that's all part of what makes up Irish culture and unpleasant as it may be to you - that's the way it is.
Take traveller culture in Ireland - like most settled Irish people I have reservations about traveller culture - the hard drinking, the wife beating and fighting, these are things I might like to see changed. But then I also admire their resilience and the fact that they carried this music we play for many many generations - it is sometimes called Tinker's Music in Ireland. I admire their free way of life and ability to make do and live on less etc. So people would love to get rid of the violence in traveller, the wildness and turn them all into versions of ourselves .... but then they wouldn't be travellers anymore and their links to the music would likely also get stretched.
So you mightn't like some aspects of Irish culture but it's all part of the deal.
Actually, no, it's not part of the deal, Hussar. It's only part of the deal because you let it be. Burning down Chinatown, hanging blacks, putting a screwdriver into someone's head...hey, "that's just the way it is" -- no, I don't think so.
Mark, not to worry. I have my own prejudices that I get to fight just like everyone else does and I have to balance everything I have gotten from everyone else I know as well, so it's not like I can't empathize. The details are important, is all.
I admire your willingness to get out there and battle for what you think is right. That is truly a great thing to see in someone, and I'm inspired by that, and I'll continue to fight this sort of fight because of people like you, just as much for my black friends or whoever.
Hussar, your argument is so woefully inadequate it's almost beyond intelligent criticism. Except that it should be obvious to you that culture isn't static, and that things change, sometimes, even, for the better...
Damn, didn't mean to sound that bitchy. But things do change for the better. Can you imagine the British Army shooting civilians in Derry today? No, of course not. But that change has come slowly, and it began with people refusing to be degraded just for being themselves. Small changes always precede big changes. That's why they're important. Would Barack Obama be president of the USA next year if Rosa Parks had given up her seat? Nobody knows, but there's no denying the relationship between her actions and the changes that followed. I'm not suggesting that this issue is even in the same league, of course it's not, but small changes shouldn't be dismissed nonetheless. If something improves the quality of life of even a small group of people, where's the harm?
And not even a mention of the satirical hoax band "Half A Shilling" from from Peter Kay's Phoenix nights performing their 'masked' racist song: "Send The Buggers Back"?
Someone also informed me that there was a name appearing on the recently controversial publicised racist BNP's (British National Party) member list, whose name was listed as a 'British folk traditional musician' or something to that effect. Wondered to myself if they were a lurker or indeed participent in this formus when I heard that...
My explanation is not inadequate - you just don't like the sound of it because it has the ring of truth! You people would have us all be the same - some sort of mid atlantic mish mash of culture. That's not where this music came from!
Just a Person: Oh enlighten us, mighty swami, so that we may bask in thy glorious wisdom! Get what exactly? I've read the thread. What is your beef specifically with me, or are you simply having a knee-jerk reaction to my insistence on free speech?
Zina, I was not addressing you, but Just a Person, who called me out prior to that posting. Sorry you took it personally! I was addressing the thread, I suppose. I'll be happy to be made the whipping boy for daring to try to lighten up a seriously hostile and vehement thread. Y'all can even burn this heretic at the stake if you like.
Really I'm a nice guy! I'm an Aries, I enjoy laughs, tunes, having a good time, long walks on the beach...
As I said -- ill-timed, I'm afraid. I'm not taking it personally. I'm taking it on behalf of others, to whom this is actually quite a painful subject. If I was taking it personally, I wouldn't be posting on this thread at all, it'd be too close, and I'd be far too angry.
"Or, we can just all stop being so damn politically correct and get on with our lives, especially if the Irish use the term right out in front of God and everyone."
I'm sure you'll continue to exercise your right to free speech. You also have a right to say something sensible.
Ireland IS a mid-Atlantic mish-mash of culture. It sits in the Atlantic Ocean, contains elements of ancient Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norman culture, as well as retaining a legal system, economic system, and language, all inherited from the English. Much of this music is derived from the historical interaction of people in the British Army, polkas come from Bohemia, reels from Scotland, double-jigs from England. Where does this music come from, if not a mish-mash of cultures? Your idea of a static, unchanging cultural vacuum is preposterous. I'm afraid that your ideas have fossilised, and I don't intend to act the paleontologist.
It's also clear from your schema of 'hard drinking, wife beating and fighting' travellers, as well as your objections to economic migration, that you have some very well-established prejudices, in addition to your misconceptions about the origins of this music. I am glad that I don't belong to the self-appointed collective that you define as 'us'.
On the whole this thread has been enlightening, not just for me, but for a number of people, and I thank everybody who made intelligent, moderate and reflective comments. It was a pleasant change from recent discusions in which intolerance and bigotry has been paramount. Obviously, it's been apparent in this thread too, but on the whole I think it has been outweighed by the reasoned and generally flexible opinions that have been posted.
All the best,
RR.
Murrough -- the comments on that youtube clip are...well, I don't quite know what they are. Unnerving, maybe.
I don't know much about the BNP -- but I get worried about any political party that calls itself the " foremost patriotic political party" in any country....oh wait, that would be all of them wouldn't it?!
"Well, truthfully I suppose I have some small reservations about the large number of economic migrants to Ireland in the last few years - except many are now leaving as employment goes down the swallowhole."
I find that extremely ironic coming from an Irishman, considering how Irish immigrants were treated in the US (and I assume elsewhere) in the past.
"And there are many minorities even within Irish society - myself, I come from what be called a minority cultural tradition in Ireland and I'd be aware that my in laws might look on that in one way but I don't have any inferiority complex about it. You accept who you are, slag back as required and get on with it."
That sound a lot like "know your place."
But since you've mentioned your age, I'll say that that probably needs to be taken into account considering how things may have been when you were growing up and the norms you were taught, though it's not an excuse really.
Ah come on! Why are people so easily insulted. If your not Irish, Your Not Irish. That's not an insult! I mean if the insult implied that you WERE something - that could be an insult. but somebody saying your not black/white/fat/ugly/Irish is just pointing out the obvious (if it's true)
And if I told you that you were a great big faker about something *you* identify as part of your sense of self, are you going to think that's an insult? Have you even read the whole thread?
LOL, now is the part where people start commenting after only reading the first post because they don't want to read hundreds of posts. So we have to start all over again.
Almost 300 posts now, we could be going for a record...
Example #1. Born in Ireland. Grew up in Ireland all his life. Father American, mother Irish.
Is he Irish?
Example #2. Born in Iceland. Both parents Irish, but immigrated to Iceland to follow work. They've always talked about "home" and going back. Parents never do go back, although they go back once a year for two months holiday on the family farm. Daughter goes back "home" to family village at age of 35 to help run family farm.
Here's a sincere question from someone far from the situation: Is a person who grew up in a gaeltacht with Irish as first language considered more Irish than those that didn't?
Back at the top topic, my experience of the use of the term in Cork was:
1) it was used by native Irish, not by us blow-ins
2) it was used as a put-down
3) it was not used of emigrant Irish in general, whether visiting the "home country" or not
4) it was used for the minority of emigrant Irish (or descendants) who would come back and act as if they were trying to be more Irish than the natives. Particular offense would be given by those who would return, sit in the pub where music was still made in the community, and sing the sort of anti-British republican songs that glorify continued violence. As a strong supporter of the republican principle myself (not in the sense of the American party, of course) I can see why people would find it offensive, and would look forward to the PPs' return to their homes in Guildford.
Fidkid, it depends on who you ask. Yes, according to some. In the Fifties people from Gaeltacht areas sometimes referred to those who spoke English as a first language, particularly those on the eastern seaboard, as 'sassenachs'. Maybe they still do, I don't know. But according to the theories of 19th Century nationalism, they'd be right: linguistic grouping is the principal foundation of nationhood. Therefore the comments made about Irish insecurities are well-founded. The British argument against Irish independence was one predicated on the idea that the British and Irish were the same race of people with a common language and culture. The fact that Irish culture and society is so thoroughly coloured by the influence of the English is not a fact that sits well with many Irish people, and the inferiority complex that has been alluded to by several people in this thread probably stems from that fact. De Valera's obsession with creating an Irish-speaking state was fuelled by this insecurity (along, most probably, with the fact that he was, in fact, a plastic paddy), and despite the overwhelming objection to speaking Irish shared by most of the population, he tried to force it upon them in an attempt to make them truly, linguistically Irish. He failed. National identity is a tricky subject when you don't speak your own language, or if you do, to be speaking the language of another nation. Not that national insecurity about returning emigres is confined to Ireland, I've got Greek Cypriot friends who have experienced the same hostility.
Just a person, you didn't read everything I posted, obviously. Speaking of which, my question that you didn't read was in regards to the point you told me I was missing.
...and according to Lingpupa, it seems like the term is one of those socially correcting ones, for bad behavior. Perhaps someone can dig through all this an put together all the first hand accounts, like that one, and make a nice intelligible study of the whole thing. Any sociology students out there in need of a project?
A wonderful thread, a minor comedy classic, involving the resignation of a petulant and semi-literate list member, was deleted this week. Yeah, right, a farewell thread and we don't do 'em, fair dues and all that. But this loadabollix of a thread has got nothing to do with Irish music, it is sapping the energy of posters who would otherwise be posting to music threads, and it is doing nothing apart from massaging the egos of two posters, one boy and one big girl. May it soon be banished to the oblivion it deserves.
Now the term "Plastic Paddy" wouldn't annoy me in the slightest, it is an Irish put down for fakes.
The term "Paddy" can be racist. And there were lots of other interesting points.
And Marklar I was being sarcastic about Mexicans amazingly working for far right rich people, I was making the point you did in the next post.
But all this is mere trivia.
WOUNDED HUSSAR, HOW CAN AN IRISH PERSON MOAN ABOUT IMMIGRANT LABOUR?
Immigrant labour is a product of capitalism, to maintain the wealthy in any given country at any given time. For years it was not Lithuanians, Poles, Czechs or Mexicans moving to countries to work in, but the IRISH. Mainly in the UK and US of A. The Irish were the immigrant labourers, "undermining the culture of countries".
The only people who show an interest at our session are tourists and the Poles, Czechs and Lithuanians. And we are not that bad.
Many of these families TRY to integrate into Irish society, playing hurling and Gaelic football, dancing and eventually playing the music. However they are resisted by bigots, who claim they are "undermining the culture".
As for your comments about Travellers "Hard drinking, wife beating etc" did you write for the Daily Mail in England about 70years ago about the IRISH in England? Wouldn't have any wife beating on the Falls Road, Cork or Coolock I suppose? Or hard drinking?
Your remarks are offensive, and extremely sad given Ireland's history of exporting people all over the world.
I know many people share your views and "that is the way it is" but it needs changing. For a month now I have been on a protest outside a cafe in Belfast which sacked a pregnant Polish girl, rather than pay her maternity pay. That is the way it is, but it won't be for much longer because we will bankrupt the owner and perhaps others will learn from this. The last protest concerned a Lithuanian girl and we won that one.
Racism and intolerance from Irish people, who write thousands of songs about the struggle for "liberty" and condemn the British and others for oppressing them, is particularly abhorrent.
Good man, bodhran bliss. Trade union activism is a dying art. Maybe future generations will have to rediscover it all for themselves when they're all put on minimum wage, if minimum wage legislation lasts till 2010.
Bored with it here Steve? Put your money into Double Inverse ETF's - Exchange Traded Funds - if you can afford $100,000 you'll be laughing. Make money out of this recession while all the working class saps are starving (do you detect any irony here?)
If you don't like the thread, don't click on the link. Otherwise all you're doing is trying to show how clever you are, which sort of nixes making your goal. Which is something you've done for years now here, and seem to still feel the need to do, so I don't know why I'm bothering to state the obvious to you, but hey, hope DOES spring eternal.
The fact that whining about people on this board, who make you feel little through no fault of their own, doesn't make you look any bigger hasn't sunk it yet, has it, Steve?
You never win these things, Steve, you just always end up looking small. Remember how it went with the whole Glee Club thing? Just quit it.
Hello Zina darlin'. I can see how much you've enjoyed your patronising, hectoring renaissance in this thread. You've vilified chaps who were patently not racist making reasonable points in a slightly heavier-footed way than was wise, considering you were around to pass haughty judgement. For the record, though as you're so self-absorbed you won't be interested, I've been a lifelong opponent of racism in the trade union movement and as a teacher in multiracial inner city areas for more years than you've had hot dinners. I'm quietly proud that I've never allowed a racist remark to go unchallenged in my classroom or playground, not once, not ever. One of my best friends was murdered at an anti-racist election rally in 1979, and 22,000 of us marched through London at his funeral. I've seen a Muslim family fire-bombed to death in a racist attack just down the road from my school. I am a white sort of half-English/Irish guy but I humbly think I've seen enough to know what racism is. The empty spouting about it on this here ~music~ forum is exceptionally unimpressive, to be honest. And I don't need your advice as to where to click, thank you. Basically, Zina, sod off.
As it happens I know a fair bit about you. No names, no pack drill and all that. Definition of a jerk, for all without a Zina history: a person who doesn't agree with Zina and/or doesn't shut up when she commands you to.
Also, do please remember...all of your heartbreaking experiences still don't invalidate other people's experiences with dealing with discrimination. Deal with it.
Oh SORRY. Was that supposed to be a sinister, I-Know-All-About-You-Where-Your-Kids-Go-To-School-husband-gets-his-hair-done smile? Sorry, I missed that.
I don't know mtodd, Ray, so I couldn't say. Steve's sort of imbalanced where certain people are concerned though, we seem to set off his inferiority complex.
Bogman? To call someone a "bogman" is Ireland is not racist, it is merely an insult, insinuating that the person is a bit slow and thick. Now I know where the expression comes from.
And thanks for the info Steve, I was busy looking you up on the BNP list I downloaded.
In the past I have had the odd run in with Zina, but here she is right. How can anyone be flippant about racism? Not much use reading "War and Peace" if it is above your head.
Racism is all about intolerance. How does it relate to music? As someone who was threatened by armed terrorists who had declared war on "Pan-Nationalist" musicians I can see where all intolerance leads. Race and colour today, music and thought tomorrow.
We can never relax about racism, sectarianism, and all the other evils. "All it takes for evil to prosper....and all that".
Thankfully, to my surprise I admit, our session location, a working class pub full of wing nuts, has been most welcoming to the migrant labourers, which is to their eternal credit. Hopefully this will spread to the rest of Ireland.
"Murrough -- the comments on that youtube clip are...well, I don't quite know what they are. Unnerving, maybe.
I don't know much about the BNP -- but I get worried about any political party that calls itself the " foremost patriotic political party" in any country....oh wait, that would be all of them wouldn't it?!
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
------------------
Hi Zina,
I haven't ventured in here too often of late, as you can probably see why, by the "quality" *coughs* of contributions made by a lot of people posting under various aliases etc.
Sorry, I honestly hadn't read the comments made on that youtube video clip I had posted. It's an extract from an English comedy show, of fictitious characters set around the real-life town of Bolton in the North of England, written by a guy called Peter Kay; he made 2 very good critically acclaimed series' of said show.
This extract was supposed to lighten the mood a bit in this thread, which I stumbled upon, and seemed to be getting very heated... I dunno, I probably thought that someone would have recognised the show and had a laugh at this attack on vices and follies, using ridicule... and maybe have calmed the whole frenzy of this thread down a bit.
I thought the irony of showing that ridiculous racist folk band, would have been appropriate, as the club owner booked them in the comedy series as they were supposed to "cater for the family. Nothing offensive, nothing blue", but to the club owner's horror, he discovers that they are highly racist and calls the club's security to heavily tackle them off the stage mid-song...
Racism is a terrible thing obviously, which should be thwarted whenever possible, I believe. I mentioned the publication of that BNP member list as it was made public just a few days ago (Monday I think) and there were policemen, teachers etc. names on it and already 2 people have lost their jobs (quite rightly so IMHO - is it fair to the public to have someone in the police who is a known racist?) and some Radio DJ, believing it to be relevant as it's a current affair:
I honestly haven't ever heard the term "Plastic Paddy" used in Ireland before, and the first time I heard of it was when we were doing a tour of England and Scotland around the early 90's. We were playing a concert in a place called Aras na nGael, in Kilburn, in London and there was a poster up for (I think) a band called "The Plastic Paddies", which I didn't get, so a really nice man there called Brendan Mulkere explained to me the meaning of the term.
In the world of design, I've heard the term "Paddy-whackery" used a lot, in a derogitory way, to criticise design work, mostly for Irish music events, which depict ginger-bearded, buckle-hatted, usually wearing green, "leprechaun" type portrayals, and usually avoid this plague at all costs.
Growing up in and coming from the north of Ireland, I have been subjected to much worse terms than "Paddy", but even Paddy is not a very nice term to be called when you are a visitor who is over to play music in someone else's country, as I wouldn't call a visitor to my Country a term that is an unkind racial slur.
I actually quite enjoyed the clip itself, Murrough. It was also interesting that they obviously felt that the subject was a little too close to the bone to let it just stand on it's own -- wise to add the reporter, I think, just to make certain. Nice touch that the club owner was a bit of a squeaky, self-satisfied sort, too. But the comments were...well, as I said, unnerving!
I've been reading up about the BNP and the NF online. Wow. Thanks for the extra links...it'll kill the time while I'm waiting for the party upstairs to end... (Every time I think they're done, they start up the dancing or shouting again.)
I wouldn't have supposed you'd have any part of that other stuff, anyway. (Don't be too hard on the frenzy and such. Hard not to when it's important stuff.) Not to be too slavering about it, but hope of the nation and all that. Don't let it go to your head. ;)
Forget the Blacks and the Tinkers and the Poles and whoever else that's been mentioned in this thread, it's the Chinese we should be worried about. They have a finger in every pie!!! They've even got to infiltrate the Irish music scene! I would suggest that Zina be true to her culture by putting down her fiddle and taking up the Erhu instead, otherwise before you know it all of us on thesession.org will be wearing coolie hats and speaking in tones.
And you thought you guys had problems. Has anyone read the Guardian piece about the All Blacks giving up the haka ? Argument nullified by this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhyxfmoSxOA
Best haka available before the idiots altered this taking away the original and putting some stupid soudtrack under it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd0kDxP04eI
Another beauty here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB7a9pLVdxM
These guys make more hard, hard tackles in one half of the game that yer average NHL "superstar" makes all season.
WOUNDED HUSSAR, HOW CAN AN IRISH PERSON MOAN ABOUT IMMIGRANT LABOUR? - Bodran Bliss.
Ah come on Bliss, I would have thought you might have known me a little better than that! I was simply acknowledging an uncomfortable feeling that is prevalent in Ireland over the past several years. Yes, I agree, that feeling is ironic given the history of emigration from here but the people who don't emigrate, those that stay behind always look at things a little differently. Just as those who survived the famines & emigrations of the 1840's, those who were more fortunate and those that trampled on others to survive - these people have a different perspective. It is possible to accept immigrant labour in this country and at the same time, regret the changes.
The point about the Travellers is that they are another sub culture within the greater Irish community, just as the Plastic Paddys as a sub culture. However most settled Irish feel a lot more hostile on average I would think to the Travellers and you will be familiar with terms like 'knackers' etc. Yes, there is a lot of hard drinking, etc etc. in parts of the settled community but it's a much greater feature in the Traveller's lifestyle - surely I don't need to give you chapter & verse. So, on the one hand - we might like to see those aspects change, to emasculate the Travellers and make them more like settled folks. But then we risk losing them as a distinct sub culture - they just become one of us. And then our minds stray to the fact that the likes of John Doherty, Johnny Doran, Raineys, Fureys etc. were/ are all part of the Traveller, Tinker community. They held this music we profess to play when it was neither profitable or popular. When this music was looked down on by the ordinary Irish public as Tinkers music, diddly etc. And we owe the Travellers a debt and a respect for that and for many other aspects of their lifestyle. But you can't just choose this bit or that bit of Traveller culture and throw away the rest, just like that. You need to consider it in the round.
That was my point to Robert Ryan and Zina Lee - you may not like the mild slagging and terminology of Paddy Whackery - but it's part of the Irish culture and understood by most as such. Just as there are unsavoury aspects of Traveller culture or English culture or Chinese culture.
"Hi folks! Buster Bodhran here! I'm just waking up under the table here at the First Annual TheSession.org Racism Crusade! [brushes beer cans and bottles aside, staggers to feet] As you can see, the remains of SWFL FIddler and Steve Shaw are finally being removed from the gallows after a long night of dancing around their bodies. Marklar is still nowhere to be found, the Chief Inquisitioner keeps giving me a knowing look and a wink when I ask what happened to him.
"Well, looks like the morning torches and pitchforks are being passed out, time to get ready for today's action! But first, we pay some bills.
"Johnson's Pitchforks! When other folks' moderate political views and having your own questioned are simply unacceptable, try Johnson's Pitchforks! Available at all fine retailers!"
Which brings it down to, of course -- whose fault is it if your sense of humor consistently falls flat? The person who consistently doesn't get a laugh from their comments or the people who sit there looking at them with puzzled looks before going on with what they were talking about?
Anyway, Murrough, I'll have to keep reading up. I've heard a lot of jokes and seen a lot of shaking of heads, and I don't really understand what it's all about. From what I've read so far, I'm not sure that I *will* understand it totally at the end of it all, but life's like that sometimes.
Yeah, Dow, those Chinese -- I think we ought to try and overwhelm them with sheer numbers, do you think there's enough people to do that on the rest of the planet still, or have they tipped the balance on that?
Actually, forget the Chinese. I think it's the Americans you need to worry about, at least if it's me in particular you're trying to tweak, because I don't actually speak Chinese (well, I can say Happy New Year, 1-10, and tell you you're a bad boy).
Oh, give SWFL Fid a break. His earlier bit was a tad ill-timed and inappropriate, but his intentions weren't bad and I enjoy his clowning for the most part.
Oh, and I thought the arm or leg thing was funny, but I don't get the rest of your post. If anything, I'd love to see you crack more jokes, things have gotten too serious.
Racism isn't acceptable. Anywhere. Anytime. Regardless of degree. It can be contextual, yes, but we all know that when we see it.
There are people on this board, who live in places where words are the first step on a very short, insane road to someone getting beaten up or killed, who know all of this far better than I do. And these are people who know far better on a live-with-it basis than me how serious this subject is, how close it really is, how blood can be spilled. I wouldn't presume to tell people like Bodhran Bliss or Murrough or anyone who lives where they do how to run their country or solve their problems, which are incredibly complicated and have no easy solutions.
But I will say and do whatever I can, as long as I have to, to stop racism and bigotry, the plain human things we have to change.
If they could speak to you, do you think that the people Steve Shaw mentioned who have died because of racist people would want us to stop talking about it? That we not talk about it because this is a "music board"? That we should stop trying? That we shouldn't take action? C'mon.
I'm out of here now. From here on out, it's basically all been said, and Bodhran Bliss pretty much laid it out there as far as I'm concerned. It's been very instructive, and I really salute Robert for the thread, and for the fact that he's been on message and steadfast throughout.
Well, OK, I agree with all you've said above 100%. I don't think that anyone is trying to stop you from speaking your mind about this, though. At least, I'm not.
Yea Zina, Bodhran Bliss pretty much laid it out there as far as I'm concerned as well with.....
"Bogman? To call someone a "bogman" is Ireland is not racist, it is merely an insult, insinuating that the person is a bit slow and thick. Now I know where the expression comes from."
- nice
Humour, race relations, free speech, love & hate, PTSD, reconciliation, solving the worlds' ills . . .
Down with racism up with free speech.
I am unable to rational the ironies of Irish culture. I remember the 1st time I read the term plastic paddy. The reference was an attempt to slag on someone's playing ability, or lack thereof. Which is the ironic bit. Members will slag & say, " that is a part of the culture. It is humourous " . Then on a separate thread despair about the rise in slagging. In my mind I do not expect to resolve this paradox.
I am here for the tunes. Having said that, I do know the forum is a community effort. Just because SWFL Fiddler has never been that funny does not mean he is not giving it his best effort. He & Bodhran Bliss & ceolachan & airport try to be tension relievers. In my opinion we need some of that.
Keep the conversation going. To me it always comes down to being able to turn to someone I may not like & finding the good in them ~ recognizing the humanity in anyone & everyone.
End of rant.
I need more tunes.
Tomorrow we are having a harvest ritual.
I throw myself on the mercy of the court! I have sinned! I have called a pub a plastic paddy pub! Not a soul among you would have blamed me. It was a reconverted dive bar in a shopping center with a tile ceiling and florescent lighting. It lasted six months before the former clientele drove it out of business by fighting non-stop inside the joint. It was truly horrible.
I will admit to venting some testiness via the humor, and yes, it's your fault if you don't like it. It's my fault if I don't laugh at jokes other people make about me. [smiles, bats eyelashes, grins widely]
Incidentally BB, the more appropriate way to insult someone where I'm from is to call them a teuchter.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Teuchter, like most such cultural epithets, it is often offensive, but is sometimes seen as amusing by the speaker. The term is often taken to mean "ignorant northerner".
Think about that definition, Bogman, especially the bit "seen as amusing by the speaker".
Bodhran Bliss, I find it extremely offensive that you think it's funny to say you looked for me on a BNP list. To be honest, it doesn't fall too far short of being actionable. I've done a bloody sight more to fight racism in my life than most of the self-righteous bleaters on this thread and I demand that you retract that slur, here on the list where you made it, and not in private. I mean it, mate. You can be bloody funny sometimes but you've missed the mark pretty badly this time.
Steve (hoping that the block on his posting has been lifted...)
And thanks for the info Steve, I was busy looking you up on the BNP list I downloaded.
That's what I posted Steve. In short, I was glad you had posted a resume of your efforts in the field because you had me worried by being so glib and flippant about this subject. Obviously I wasn't really looking you up on the list, that comment was to illustrate how far things had gone, and the impression that your flippancy on the subject of racism creates.
It was not meant to be funny, it was meant to shock, as I was shocked by your attitude. I apologise if it offended you, it was meant to "sober you up".
Doubtless you have a fine record in combating racism. However unless you personally know all the people posting here, you cannot simply label them as "self righteous bleater's". Even if the posters were said bleater's, you should not compound the error by adopting a flippant attitude, in my opinion.
I think you and Zina may have "history" and you allowed that history to cloud your better judgement. By winding up Zina, you were beginning to sound like a racist. Having corresponded with you in the past by e-mail I found that hard to believe. Hence my "shocking" reference to the BNP list. I know you are not the BNP type.
All of this may not sound like much of an apology Steve, but I do apologise if you actually believed that I thought you may be a BNP type, and this offended you. Perhaps it was "flippant" which again illustrates how flippant remarks on a serious subject can be interpreted.
Just go back to the Zina phase of this thread and take off your blinkers and work out exactly who insulted whom and how many times. I was not being flippant about racism but I was being flippant about the self-absorbed, surreal and semi-hysterical posturing of some participants about a relatively trivial insult that has been incorrectly labelled as racism. I'll tell you what, mate. There are some real battles against racism to be fought out there, and anyone who thinks that they're contributing to that fight by contributing to a 360-post thread about plastic bloody paddies needs their heads examining, and what's more, they need to lighten up.
Cheers, mate. If ever a discussion thread completely lost all sense of proportion, this is that thread. As a matter of fact, plastic Paddy is not racist at all. It's sexist! Only applies to men! What about all those plastic Patricias! Plastic colleens for Chrissake! There, flippant enough for you, bodhran pompous bliss?
Just go back to the Zina phase of this thread and take off your blinkers and work out exactly who insulted whom and how many times. I was not being flippant about racism but I was being flippant about the self-absorbed, surreal and semi-hysterical posturing of some participants about a relatively trivial insult that has been incorrectly labelled as racism.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
That's what I said, you let your thoughts about Zina cloud your judgement.
I agree that the term Plastic Paddies may not be the worst term in the world, but the discussion had moved far beyond that.
However when you know you are addressing someone from Ireland the term "a 360-post thread about plastic bloody paddies needs their heads examining," could indeed be interpreted as racism.
As for the comment "you clearly have such a big ego that you find it difficult to back down, even from such an obnoxious position." I would have to ask if you were looking in a mirror when the comment came to you.
I do not think racism can be defined into "real" battles. All opposition to racism is a battle, not to be laughed at.
As I said, I was surprised by your attitude, but your dislike of Zina appears to have made you temporarily blind to reality.
360 posts about abso-feckin-lutely nothin. And apparently, I'm a double plastic Paddy, as I'm at least second gen Mick-Yank (gran came over after the war, and gramps fam came over before the titanic as they needed to *eat*) and my name *is* Pádraig - Paddy to my friends.
Whatever.
Go ahead, call me a mick, a paddy, hells, even a plastic one. have the courtesy to do it to my face, i'll say feck you and we can clink our glasses and get on with the craic. It doesn't bother my internal constitution. of course this may all be the product of testosterone poisoning as i'm still quite young.
Now, is it racism if the intended recipient doesn't care / mind and the giver doesn't intend it as such, or doesn't know?
Surely the most offensive thing you can call someone these days isn't plastic paddy or whatever, but "racist"?
It's more likely to have negative effects on your life than being called paddy or jock or teuchter, however much that irritates you. Sorry, "offends you".
Names alone are meaningless.
When they are used in a way which removes our dignity that is where the erosion begins.
The last time I felt my dignity being removed was laying in the intensive care unit in a hospital gown. Of course with the morphine you could have called me whatever you liked.
I got through that one.
RACISM IS NEVER OK, or slight variants thereon, has appeared, like, sixty times on this thread. as if anyone here disputed the proposition. like the thread title ("is racism acceptable...."), it pulls the rhetorical trick known in the litigation biz as, "assuming facts not in evidence." the classic illustrative example thereof being, "so....when did you stop beating your wife?" the one being pulled here is, hey, let's not debate the usage of the word "paddy" or "plastic paddy," let's just say, you're a racist if you use it. that's textbook example A of assuming facts not in evidence.
reality is a little more complicated. you can have an opinion on this one, but it is not an open-and-shut matter. it is legitimately debatable as a matter of semantic usage as well as history. the simple fact is that the use of "paddy" to denote an irish person, though it has indeed been used disparagingly by non-irish bigots, did not originate with non-irish bigots in the manner of "the n-word" or in the manner of the "c-word" as used by non-female bigots to demean females.
irish people have used and do use "paddy" to refer to themselves, sometimes with irony or sorrow, but often with humor, elan and raffish pride, and they are not ironically subverting an epithet in the manner of "queer." they use the term to describe themselves on occasion. anybody who goes to a singing session, or who sits and listens in the pub when the singers start up after the musicians die down, will hear example after example of this phenom, and i suspect that many of the shrillest voices on this thread know this perfectly well, but don't want to let a little thing like facts get in the way of the thrill of luxuriating in the bubblebath of self-righteousness.
it is also a fact that use of the term "plastic paddy" by anybody but an irish person, may be taking place out there on the earth somewhere, but this would be the exception rather than the rule. the usual use of this phrase by irish people in the manner of one black person calling another black person an "oreo cookie" (black on the outside...white on the inside). now, that may be an insult, and it may or may not be unfair in a given case, but it is not racist.
at my mother's funeral, people were surprised to learn that her given name was Alice. this is because from the age of four to her (prematurely young) death at seventy-three, she went by the name of Pat, including on her business cards. my mother grew up in new jersey in one of those neighborhoods where poor, non-anglo-saxon european immigrants lived side by side and also beat the living heck out of each other on occasion in true "gangs of new york manner," and one day at around age four, she was at the grocer or the butcher's with her own mother, when the shop proprietor, a P***y, wouldn't you know!, looked down at this redheaded child and announced, ah sure, look at the freckles and the nose on her, she's as irish as PADDY'S pig. and it was Pat forever after.
Robert, I am confused. You start a very serious thread about racism and the use of the term 'plastic paddy," but then change your user name to 'Plastic Fantastic?" It seems to go against the statements you made throughout the thread about being sensitive to others, avoiding terms that might be inflamatory, etc. Just curious......
Perhaps its like one of those things you know ...''its not ok for someone to call it if they arent considered it, those who are considered it ... well that a whole other ball game!'' ???
Just got bored of the 'self-righteous bleaters' insults, and the 'because it doesn't offend me nobody else has the right to be offended' mentality that, to me, is quite self-righteous. The thread was interesting, informative, people were stimulated by it, and self-evidently interested in it, yet people have to come along and stick their oar in at the end of the thread, complaining that it's too long, too self-righteous, too this, too that, rather than making intelligent statements, or even reading the bloody thing in the first place. All the vociferously argued points made at the end of the thread had been made several times by other people, in more intelligent ways. I just got bored. And I got a good slagging at the session on Saturday, and earned a new nickname... Good times.
Thanks for explaining the new user name. You need to get some friends to help push this discussion over 400 posts, a distinction rarely achieved on the yellow board!
Wait, do people really think that "nigga" and "nigger" are two different words? Well I don't know what part of the country that is, but I've lived in Chicago and New York, and I'll say with certainty that "both" words are used about equally by black Americans. It's pretty obvious that they are just different pronounciations of the same term. Do you really think that if a handful of black kids were talking together, calling each other niggas and one of them slipped in an "r" at the end they would all gasp at his unbelievable racism? Come on.
The truth is, no word is absolutely racist; context is everything. Now I'm not going to pull the "I have a friend who is. ---" card, I'm just trying to make a point: I have Mexican friends who call each other "spicks"; I have Polish friends who call each other "polocks", I even have several Arab-American friends who jokingly refer to each other as terrorists. Is this racism? No. Racial language all depends on context. Just like an Irish uncle calling his Americanized nephew a plastic paddy (when my uncle does this, I laugh and tell him to go f--- himself...hmm, there's another word that's offensiveness is contextual) is different than an Irishman calling an American immigrant a "disgusting bloody plastic paddy". Context is everything.
Context is indeed everything, but I'd contend that there are very few contexts in which "nigger" or "Paki," for example, are OK. The fact that African-Americans or Pakistanis use the words themselves is often pounced on by racists to justify their own use of the words. Words like these that have accumulated such negative baggage (unlike "plastic paddy") should be discouraged by everyone, including black or Pakistani parents when they hear their own children using it. In fact, I know that this is indeed what commonly happens. I certainly didn't shrink from it myself when I was a teacher in inner London. Unfortunately, there were some teachers who latched on to the above false justification, but the vast majority of teachers I knew would pounce on the use of such words whatever their source, and quite right too. Arguing that use of these woprds is OK as long as you've calculated the context would be severely misguided. Those hearing you saying them would almost certainly not have carried out similar calculations.
It is no exaggeration to say that I found myself on the front line against racism in inner London schools for 13 years. I learned how to be fairly courageous in taking a confident and consistent stand against it and how never to let racist comments pass. I found the criticisms of certain posters to this thread to be extremely hurtful, not to speak of totally unjustified, and in attempting to say so (one post never appeared) I got myself banned. Oh well. There is a big difference between a ton of theoretical, high-minded fluff and a dose of good, hard experience. But who am I.
Endure is perhaps the word you seek. From all you say it seems you aspire to endure all the wrong things, and not those things actually worth enduring.
I am in no way trying to justify the use of racist language, I'm only saying that words are just words, and the intent behind them is the important thing. What one man might see as prolonging use of a negative word, another man may see as reclaiming the words used to repress them (look at words like "queer" for example). And what one man might find offensive, another may not. For example, the word "paki" is often not considered offensive to many Pakistanis in the states and neither is the word "paddy" considered offensive towards the Irish; conversely, the word "pilgrim" is considered extremely offensive towards Ukranians. I'm not arguing that any words are "ok" or "not ok", I'm just saying that the meaning of the words do change in different situations.
OK, but I'm sticking with what I said. It's best to avoid "nigger" and "Paki" in all the circumstances that I can personally think of. "What one man finds offensive, another may not" is a bloody good reason for not using them.
It is a good reason, and its the same reason I don't use words like that either. But at the same time, while it may be best for you and me to avoid those words, it may be different for other people, and unless they're being obviously racist, I'm not going to judge or confront someone else if they have a different inerpretation of a word than I do and use it amongst each other.
What are you trying to achieve here Premierflute? We've had your thread about "who can play a tune?", you never succeeded in explaining what the purpose of that was, and now you're resurrecting a long dead thread with a strange question about plastic musicians.
Maybe you do have a sensible question in mind, but you aren't succeeding in expressing it, instead you are generating an atmosphere of free-floating ill feeling, which I don't believe is your intention at all.
This paticular thread just reminded me of the The "who can play a tune?"
If you read the thread instead of guessing my intentions you find ehm my intention which I made clear......
To be honest I've no control over you ..... guessing my intentions but I'd rather you didn't unless of course my comments are a little too vague
Steve Shaw seems to have hit it on the head.
"PP" sounds like it's more a cultural ascription rather than a genetic one (ie, not racist, even if offense is meant). Never heard the term PP, nor am I offended by it as an Irish American. I remember vividly seeing my oldest friend's face as a kid when another kid called him a nigger. I never saw someone look so angry. The other kid was an immigrant from Guatemala, just learning English, probably didn't know exactly how offensive he was being. But my friend was beyond p*ssed and that image of his face is forever etched in my memory as the look of the righteously offended.
When my grandfather came here in the 1920s, to have an Irish accent was to be considered stupid. That's not the case anymore. Irish actors, writers, and musicians are quite popular here. Kennedy was elected 50 years ago. Americans are far more prone to be "PP"s rather than to be anti-Irish. Maybe it's my West Coast experience and it's different on the East Coast. I don't know.
Some people experience real bigotry in this country: on occasion they get beaten and murdered for being gay, dragged behind a truck until their limbs fall off for being black, detained in airports for having Arab-sounding names (I had a Sephardic Jewish professor whom this happened to), arrested for "looking like" an illegal immigrant. Overusing words like racism diminishes their meaning and diminishes the very real suffering of people who experience it.
Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I've recently come across various spiteful references to 'plastic' paddies, and several plastic paddy-related insults have cropped up in recent discussions.
This may seem like a largely harmless and acceptable form of abuse, in comparison to a vilified word like 'nigger', or 'paki', but it's nonetheless racist and hugely offensive to many people, not only the first and second generation children of immigrants who are part of the Irish community, but to many Irish immigrants themselves, who have had families and made a life for themselves overseas.
It would be nice to see this form of racism eradicated here. Things have got quite ugly and insulting in recent months, and a number of people have lost self-control in a number of ways. No doubt someone will create a new email account just so they can destroy this thread with a moronic and degrading attack, but I would like people to be aware of the fact that whatever way you look at it, the term 'plastic paddy' is a form of racist abuse, and the reason it is used is because it is emotionally effective. In other words, it can be used to hurt people, and is effective in doing so.
It is possible to express disagreement without insult, and it is usually more productive to use intelligence than abuse to get one's point across, no matter how immediately satisfying it might be to tell someone what a complete c**t they are.
Save the slagging for the sessions, eh lads? It's one thing being called a c**t by your mates over a few tunes and pint or five in your local pub. It's another thing entirely to be called a '----------- ---------' by some gutless individual with a penchant for email anonymity in front of the entire population of cyberspace.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
read up on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Paddy
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Plastic Paddy was first used as a term of insult to vilify the first and second generation immigrants who maintained a sense of cultural identification with the country of their parents or grandparents. To describe a person as a 'plastic' has very little to do with the description of Irish-themed pubs etc. outlined in the Wiki article.
Many English, Scottish and Welsh born people of Irish descent might have rather obvious political objections to possessing a British passport, for example. This makes them plastic, according to some.
It was a term of abuse first created by the stay-at-homes, to insult the families of those who left, and made a life for themselves outside of the economic nightmare that was 60s, 70s and 80s Ireland.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
At work today, I was called the other "C" word:
Celebrity.
Funny old world 'in'it??
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Of course, absolutely, zero tolerance to any racism. Jeremy should delete any offenders' account immediately, with no discussion.
I have though, seen the odd person here refer to themselves as plastic paddies. In a kind of putting themselves down a bit and saying that they'll never be able to play because they are not really Irish. This is just a little sad.
However, while I whole heartedly agree that It is possible to express disagreement without insult, and it is usually more productive to use intelligence than abuse to get one's point across, there does often come a point on this website where any amount of calm reasoned logic is completely lost in the maelstrom of stupidity. I am mostly tolerant of ignorance, but I have a low tolerance threshold for stupidity. And here, as all else is a failure, I am quite happy to resort to insult.
If anything, just so long as it's not mindless random ranting, but carefully thought out put downs, it can be entertaining. And you have to admit that there is a great tradition of insult in Ireland.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Folks are super-sensiitive about such things these days. When I was at school, any complaint made about it to a teacher would be swiftly dismissed with "Sticks and stones may break your bones, but names can never hurt you".
How things have changed since those times ...
A fiddler (a Dubliner) of my aquaintance always had a ready reply to verbal insults of any kind:
"Ye can call me what ye like - as long as it's not too early in the mornin!"
Although "Plastic Paddy" is not a term that I would ever use myself, "plastic" is just a modern material, and "Paddy" an abreviation for "Patrick", all said and done.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And Paki is just an abreviation of Pakistani. So that's alright then.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
There is no logic to these things, llig.
For example (as far as I know), "Aussie" is an acceptable abbreviation for "Australian".
It's not the words themselves at fault - just the people who use them!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
How about this for the ultimate racism...a descriptor that has actually entered the general lexicon in some countries probably about eighty years ago, so long ago that the racial slur implicit has actually been lost; except, as I have seen, the reaction of Irish visitors when they hear it. Very embarrassing. Happily, the descriptor has, at least here, has been disappearing from the language, although I see that a children's dictionary still carries the definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddywagon
http://dictionary.kids.net.au/word/paddy_wagon
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Nothing wrong with the term "Black Maria" then? Isn't that an insult to all ladies named "Maria"?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
What about "tune racism" then?
Have any of you ever put your instrument down in disgust when an English tune has been played at a session?
Own up!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Maybe if they were called Green Marias, we may have a problem, Houston.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Surely "Plastic Paddy" is in the same category as words like "Wigger" and so forth; trying to be culturally wot you ain't!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Back in the 1960s (when motor vehicle maintenance was much less strictly controlled than it is today), folks used to patch up holes in their car exhaust pipes using a product called "Plastic Padding".
Would this product name be allowed today?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Is this really racial? It's cultural, not racial. The point that is being made in the first post is that some people whose ancestors emigrated from the country of their origin might be considered by some other people (either from that country or not) to be making too much of a cultural heritage that is possibly quite distant, and deriving from it an identity that the aforementioned other people might consider to be spurious, possibly expressing that opinion in immoderate terms that cause offence. Sorry, but that's not racism. The music is great though, and I'm sure my Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English nineteenth century ancestors would approve of me playing it.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Mein Papa always referred to it as "Plastic Pudding".
It was quite a funny play on words then!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Zer gut, Krick!
And back in the old days we used to have real homemade Christmas puddings.
Now we have "plastic puddings"
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
When I hear people laying on fake Irish accents, to me it seems
insulting to the real thing. If your father or great-grandmother
emigrated from Ireland, it means _they_ were Irish but if you
were born or raised in the USA, Australia or wherever .... sorry, you don't qualify. Racism is not acceptable anywhere,
although you can be forgiven if you don't realize you're doing it.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Hup
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I always associated the PP term with phoney and commercial behavior, like you see in the US around St. Patrick's Day, never realized that it was used to brand all emigrants and their children. If it is used to brand a people, rather than condemn a behavior, then use of the term is not acceptable.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'm with AlBrown... I always associated "PP" with the false, over-gimmiky commercial trend that's been creeping Irish pubs & clubs... especially around St Pats (and unfrotunately i'm guilty of using the term in a recent post)
I had no idea it was offensive in the slightest... and even learned this term off fellow folk musicians. Sorry if it was offencive... no harm intended!
:(
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by davydd
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
St Patrick's Day here used to be more about being Catholic in a country that had a strong Irish background in its Catholicism; it was hardly about being Irish or not. That's going back decades though, now St Patrick's Day isn't really on the religious radar at all, but it's all about green guinness and big green top hats, and stuff like that. Now, here, it's all about being Irish or not by the look of it.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, I'm sort of half-Irish and half-English and I've never considered myself to be mixed race in any real sense of the word. I'm a bit worried here. Standard 10-hole harmonicas are said to be Richter-tuned. A harp that has been retuned to better play Irish tunes is said to be Paddy Richter-tuned. It is a phrase that was coined by Brendan Power and is now univerally used in the little world of harmonicas. I even write a column under that heading in Harmonica World. What I think about all this is that I'm not going to change the title of the column any time soon.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Offensive" (Should check my Spelling!)
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by davydd
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Anyone who is offended by being called 'plastic paddy' by what amounts to an anonymous internet poster really must have paper thin skin. How do you get through the day? It must be really tough being you. For your own good I suggest you reflect on the important differences between harm and offense. Harm is done to you -offense you either accept or don't. The term 'plastic paddy' I would suggest falls in the latter category.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mac Donn
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
That'd be plastic thin skin wouldn't it?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, I hope that none of you politically correct types ever uses the word: "hooligan", as it's derived from the Irish surname "Hullichan" ....
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Give 'em a bit of Larry Dooley, Mix.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Dooley
Jeez, and I thought the name was actually Hooligan.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'm interested in the "differences between harm and offence, Harm is done to you - offence you either accept or don't.".
If you accept offence, this logically means then that you are harming yourself.
But it's not as simple as that. Otherwise you wouldn't have the term, "No offence intended."
I'm reminded of that one after a skirmish during the American Civil War:
Officer 1. "Any one killed?"
Officer 2. "No Sir, just a n i g g e r"
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Officers of the Union army, then?
Beyond the Pale, that one...
... and "the Pale", was of course a fence that caused offence ...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It's necessarily a two way street, especially in what I would consider a trivial circumstance i.e. someone taking umbrage to a fairly innocuous term bandied about on the anonymous internet. I think many people are too quick to take offence, in fact it appears they seek it at every turn. There is of course a wider argument about when does offence become harm? -dehumanising propaganda as a pre-cursor to genocide in many historical contexts -but I don't think this is comparable. I don't see minions massing on the borders of England are the US ready to wipe the scourge of Scruffy Murphy's and O'Hanrahan's off the face of the planet. I think sometimes we have to relax a little in those 'plastic - thin' skins.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mac Donn
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
... a fence in Ireland designed to keep the Irish out of "harms way"...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
We build them long and high...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Andyras1
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Having had the good fortune to tour with one of the dance shows i came into contact with many dancers from England.
I'd like to see the man who called some of them English though!.
Those of us fortunate enough to live on the green grassy slopes of Erin often doubt other's right to be called truly Irish.
I think its only after they are your friends and you know them well that you get a proper appreciation of how Irish they feel.
Identity is a complex thing.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"I've recently come across various spiteful references to 'plastic' paddies, and several plastic paddy-related insults have cropped up in recent discussions."
Offensive though it may be to some, is that really 'racism? Such insults are not intended to degrade or intimidate all non-Irish or non-Irish-born people, much less any particular race. They are (presumably) aimed at those who have, or are perceived as having, pretentions to being Irish, despite having tenuous or no family connections with Ireland. I admit, I sometimes find such people comical myself. i fact, I have to laugh at myself for the very same reason - my ancestry is all C. and E. European as far as it can reliably be traced, yet I consider Irish Music my main 'thing', musically speaking, and would not hesitate to sit in with Irish musicians and participate in *their* tradition as if I were one of them. Of course, that's where it ends for me - I don't speak with a faux-Irish accent, wear a shamrock tie or drink Guinness and would think nothing of going to bed early on St. Pat's night.
I might, depending on context, take offense at someone pointing out my non-Irishness in a disapproving way - it would be, in effect, excluding me from a group I had thought I could be part of (I have more often felt this as a result of 'backhanded' comments or non-verbal signals). But I don't consider that. racism - just basic hostility or inhospitality.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hey, let's promote a Plastic English night! People could dress up as English stereotypes and go out and get bladdered - Scousers in shell-suits and curly wigs, Essex girls in rather-too-visible thongs and orange spray tan, chavs in back-to-front baseball caps etc (let's here some more stereotypes!) What will be the promoted drink of choice, I wonder? lager-tops perhaps, or bacardi breezer. Hang on a mo, we don't need a special occasion - it's like that every night!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"hear"
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Dont forget the 'Tinkers' and the 'West Brits'. Can we join your party RichardB.?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Plastic Paddy" is racist, of that there should be no doubt.
It's setting an 'us and them' thing based on race. "You are not Irish, stop pretending to be". "You are a manufactured version of the real thing"
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Pull your hat over your ears boys, here comes my reply.
I believe that the term plastic paddy exposes the slumbering racism inherent in cultures not Irish towards the Irish. As a product of an immigrant parent to NZ from Ireland in the economic disaster that was the 60s I have never heard the term applied to me or any of my mates anywhere, ever. I have only heard the term applied to those who try to be Irish and go over the top with it. Usually Americans and Canadians of non or little Irish descent. The use of the term exposes the laziness of those who think that they can try and tell jokes at the bar or talk with a bit of a lilt and think that it makes them a little bit closer to Oirland. It has a larger meaning here in Ontario with it's still very active and very deeply entrenched Orange Lodge culture whereby all the horrible stereotypes of what constitutes Irish culture are presented everywhere from the national TV carrier all the way down to having the St Patrick's day parade banned for the longest time and stupid, stupid plastic paddy pubs with leppin' leprechauns and people yelling "top o' da morning". They have no idea, none. They deserve to be exposed at every available opportunity so now the term plastic paddy has come out of the closet and instead of a few lads commenting amongst themselves about someone else it's out front and clear and being thrown at those who would offend with their ridiculous behaviour.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
By the way,
The only times I have ever experienced tune racism have been in England and here in Toronto. Funny innit ?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I can see how someone might take offense at the term "plastic paddy," especially if they are truly culturally Irish to some extent but living elsewhere.
But as far as I'm concerned using the word "racism" is going too far, by quite a bit. I've lived my entire life in the Deep South, and I've seen real racism up close. If you think that calling someone a "plastic paddy" is racism, then you don't know what racism is.
There are a lot of African-Americans who would be offended to see the term "racism" used so lightly. I understand how the term "plastic paddy" could be considered offensive to some, but if you call it "racism" then you are saying that you are a victim of racism. Now, can you look a person of African descent in the eye and say that you understand what it's like to be a victim of racism?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Call yourself a snake? I'm deeply offended."
Said the anaconda to the garter snake
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
My understanding was the same as Al’s:
“I always associated the PP term with phoney and commercial behavior, like you see in the US around St. Patrick's Day, never realized that it was used to brand all emigrants and their children. If it is used to brand a people, rather than condemn a behavior, then use of the term is not acceptable.”
…probably because my understanding of ‘racism’ via the Deep American South is the same as Marklars’.
I have always used and considered the term to be a correcting force in Irish American culture. We use it to encourage good Irish cultural behavior and to mock the bad, stereotypical, American commercialized version of what people think Irish culture is.
In particular, when dealing with the music, as we do here on ye olde boardo de mustard.
For example, when I play a St. P’s gig, or other such situation, and the expectation when I am hired is that I will sing various tired old pub classics, mixed in among the sets and obscure ballads, in my view, that’s me being a Plastic Paddy to make a few bucks.
When I go anchor the session, and we do our thing in the way most of us here in mustard land appreciate and enjoy, or a ceili, or performing with the local step dancers, then I don’t consider that being a Plastic Paddy at all.
…and, there’s a fine line to draw. How culturally fascist do you need to be before you end up stepping on other people’s toes, interfering with their enjoyment?
Is anyone really hurting anyone by wearing a big stupid green fuzzy top hat, singing “Whiskey in the Jar” 500 times, drunkenly hollering in a fake brogue and drinking until they puke? Well, aside from themselves and my sensibilities, perhaps?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It's not a matter of degree, it's a matter of violence. Terms like "ni**er" and "ni**er-lover" were not really used as insults in the segregated South, they were used as threats.
If someone called you a "ni**er," it meant you'd better stay in your place or there could be trouble. And trouble could be an arrest, a beating, being strung up and burned, etc. And if you were white and people in town started calling you a "ni**ger-lover," you might want to think of moving elsewhere before your house burned down or someone got hurt.
Taking offense at words is one thing, but real racism goes way, way beyond words. The problem with the words isn't the words themselves, it's the history behind them and what they imply.
How many acts of violence can you think of that have been done to "plastic paddy's"?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think there are two kinds of what is often refered to as "Plastic Paddy".
One is the plastic leprecauns and shamrocks in the plastic pub and the plastic Landlord in his stupid little green hat and effected brogue who thinks he is/wishes he was Irish.
The other is the non-Irish person who simply likes to play Irish music. Is there any connection between wanting to play Irish music and wanting to be Irish? The only way to resolve it is not to look at Irish music being Irish at all. it's just music.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
...and to get back to the question, Marklar has it nailed.
Firehoses and dog attacks is racism.
Making fun of people for singing "Whiskey in the Jar" 500 times in a fake brogue is simply fighting the good fight in the name of good taste.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
...and bad grammar is 'is' instead of 'are'.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I have to admit that I've used the term to refer to the "Disneylandish" Irish pubs that are way over the top... The glittering green shamrock necklaces given out for St. Patrick's Day, dying the beer green, with obnoxious renditions of the Fields Of Athenry on the loudspeakers... (and the people who frequent these establishments, and act that way all year round, instead of just around St. Patrick's Day...)
So I will plead ignorance for not knowing that it could be considered offensive. But that means we need a more P.C. thing to call these pubs, and the whole associated scene. Is "Oirish" appropriate? Or is that offensive because it "makes fun of the accent"? (Which is sort of its intention... to make fun of the *fake* accents)
And I agree with some other posts here. It's really more culturalism than racism, although, some might argue that there is a Milesian 'race'. But it would be difficult for someone (in the US, at least) to point to someone and say "he looks Irish" in the same way that you could single out people of African or Asian descent.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Um. No. Racism is a lot of things, and there are a lot of degrees of racism, but just because it's "just a little bit" racist doesn't mean it's not in fact racist.
Once upon a time just the term "paddy" was racist to a marked degree, and there's a reason a lot of people thought it was absolutely hilarious in a really sad way that the Irish had a lot of racism show up amongst them when the Polish came to work in Ireland while the Celtic Tiger still roared.
It's tempting to say that a bunch of white people don't know much about racism (comparatively speaking), but that would be racist, wouldn't it?
I've heard the term "plastic paddy" used in a way that made it clear that it was an ironic joke, and I've heard it used, by Irish people, in Ireland, in ways that made it crystal clear that it was a term of abuse and belittled the people they were talking about -- and they were using it in the sense of people who were born of Irish parents in other countries and were coming back to Ireland to live and dared to consider themselves Irish. How do I know that's how they were using it? They told me, straight out in front of God and everybody.
Give it up. The answer is, "no, racism isn't acceptable ANYwhere."
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Racism" is an over-used and devalued term. So is "offensive". It's axiomatic that the least tolerant and most narrow-minded people will be the most easily offended. Do you really want to hand the power of veto over expression to these people?
The Wikipedia entry is a prime example. It only takes one person to decide something is pejorative or offensive and I doubt anyone will dare to contradict them. That is not representative, it is bullying.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
So what, you're just going to let people be racist because you think you MIGHT be using an over-used and devalued term? A morally and ethically corrupt stance.
Racism=bad. End of story.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'd reckon the term Plastic Paddy is quite the acceptable form of 'racism' - there are degrees in everything and a lot depends on the nuance and tone that the phrase is delivered with. There's nothing the Irish like better than a good slag and a few insults. As long as they are taken in the same vein as they are given, absolutely no harm is done.
There's far too much political correctness these days, everything written can become very, very boringgg - so feck off, ye plastic paddies!!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
quite right, zero tolerance.
I remember coming home from school once when I was a kid, maybe 5 or 6. I asked my dad for a bit of cah to go buy some sweets or something and when he said no, I called him a "tight dew". I didn't know what it meant, I'd just heard in the playground. My dad went abslutly balistic at me, scared me half to death. And quite bloody right too.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
There is no acceptable form of racism. Sorry if you'd like there to be, but there isn't. Try and tell me a situation where racism is a positive and useful thing, if you like, but I doubt you'll manage to convince me.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Racism=bad. End of story."
Offensive != racist.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I thought racism was connected to discrimination against 'races', arguably distinct physical groups (though such distinctions are entirely arbitrary - there's not much to distinguish me from any other human really), not cultural, geopolitical and social groups?
Plastic Paddy is a pretty nasty term, as, arguably, is Paddy in a lot of ways really - but it isn't racist. Is it? Culturalist perhaps? Correct me if I'm wrong.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It's only acceptable for Irish people born abroad and living back in Ireland to call eachother "plastic paddy". Just like it's acceptable for 'people of color' to call eachother "nigga".
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Whether you like it or not Zina - at the end of the day 'birds of a feather flock together'. That is a fact of nature and human conditioning along with it.
Tensions always arise between different groups - at what point these tensions become racist is a very variable line.
I'm simply observing that the term 'plastic paddy' does not seem to cross that wavering line in my very humble opinion and understanding of the Irish public psyche.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"It's only acceptable for Irish people born abroad and living back in Ireland to call eachother "plastic paddy". Just like it's acceptable for 'people of color' to call eachother "nigga"."
No, bad analogy. The term "nigga" is a completely different word from "ni**ger" and has a completely different use and meaning. They are not the same word.
The reason that it's inappropriate for while people to use the word "nigga" is because it will be heard as the other word when coming from a white person's mouth.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Good one Hussar. Sock it to them.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
So you're just going to accept that, and not only accept it, you're going to encourage it?
How very attractive.
No, I'm not racist against this attitude, children. I am bigoted against bigots. And that, my dears, is exactly what some of you look like from these posts.
Split your hairs, define 'til the cows come home, but when you come down to it, the only way things will change is if the people reading this do something about the things none of us like about people. Just remember, when it happens to you...it was your karma.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Life is all about colour and interest - all I'm observing is that in the greater scheme of things calling someone a 'plastic paddy' is not a major disaster. Those who want to be offended will be and the majority that aren't won't give a toss. And as with all these little digs - they often have a little element of truth at their heart!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
My mother in law is adamant that she is not racist, and yet she thinks black people are better dancers than white people. Should I just let it go?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
The question isn't whether "plastic paddy" is racist -- it's whether calling an Irishman a "Paddy" is racist. The plastic part is just an insult, not a racial slur. If you call someone a "dumb n****r", you're a racist for calling them a n****r, not for insulting their intelligence. (Although this particular example probably evidences a belief that all n****rs are dumb.) Calling someone a fake or a fraud is not racist. Calling someone a Paddy might be. (And in this case the speaker is obviously distinguishing the "plastic" variety from the authentic variety, so the implied racism in the other example doesn't apply.)
So is it racist when Irish people get called paddies?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Chrishty
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
A lot of the differences here are probably coming from the fact that people are speaking from different experiences and histories of racism due to being from different cultures.
I can't speak to how the term "plastic paddy" is used in Ireland, as I don't live there. I can only speak for its use in America. And my understanding of racism is probably very different from that of someone raised in Ireland.
But in any case, I draw the line of racism at threat of violence or other harm beyond the word itself. If the word doesn't have a history of real harm behind it beyond the word itself, then I consider it simply offensive rather than racist.
Note please, Zina, that I'm not saying that it's OK. I'm just saying that it's not racist. Offensive words are bad too.
Has there been violence against "plastic paddys" in Ireland? Does the term cause fear in people? Are they denied jobs and equal treatment? I don't know. If so, then I'd consider it a racist term there.
In the US there is a history of racism against the Irish, but it had nothing to do with them being "plastic paddys."
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ah! but's the rub Michael - people are always happy to receive positive discrimination and bask in the glow. It's called double standards.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"So is it racist when Irish people get called paddies?"
Well coming from the perspective of an Irish person - it's not offensive at all to be called a Paddy. Absolutely not. You see, we don't have any inferiority complexes anymore... if you're a Paddy and you're Proud, clap your hands etc. etc........
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"My mother in law is adamant that she is not racist, and yet she thinks black people are better dancers than white people. Should I just let it go?"
In my opinion that's prejudice, not racism, there is a difference as far as I'm concerned. Prejudice comes from ignorance, while racism comes from hatred.
So in a sense I think that your mother-in-law is right, she doesn't hate black people or wish them harm, she's just bought into a stereotype and is ignorant of the truth.
Others will disagree with me on this, though, it's an open question really.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
...and now we're left with trying to determine how to continue the battle for decent Irish culture (read: not “Whiskey in the Jar” 500 times and giant fuzzy green top hats) here among our fellow Americans without mistakenly using some term that is found to be offensive.
Or, we can just all stop being so damn politically correct and get on with our lives, especially if the Irish use the term right out in front of God and everyone.
Or, perhaps we can do it European Union style and appoint a committee to dictate language to us?
To be honest, being a little insulting towards some yahoo puking on his shoes with a “F—K ME I’M IRISH!!!” T Shirt on is not going cause me to stay awake at night, questioning my political incorrectness.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think my point still stands. Calling someone of Irish descent a plastic paddy is racist. It's an insult predicated upon racial assumptions, and it's intended to cause offense. Therefore it's racist. Yes it can be funny if it's intended to be so, and it can be insulting too, if that's the intent. There's nothing politically correct about not wanting to be abused because of a historical combination of race and human migration,
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Racism is a our distrust and fear of otherness, our xenophobia (sorry Zina
). A survival trait, perhaps, when you’re a barely bipedal savannah ape vying with other bands of rock-throwers for scavenging territory, but in civilized societies it’s counterproductive if not absolutely destructive. Diversity drives creativity.
Yet we humans still identify ourselves within groups, be it fiddlers, egg shakers, session players or pub song balladeers etc. with traits that make each group unique. Is there no room for humorous observation of those shared traits by someone outside the group? I really don’t know.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
SWFL fiddler, the point is that it's used by the Irish. Racism isn't a product of logic.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
FWIW I'm ok with being called a Plastic Paddy. I'd be sorry you felt that way, though.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
But wait a minute...if the term is used by one group of Irish people against another group of Irish people--and both groups are ethnically Irish if not culturally so--then how can it really be considered a racial term in the first place, let alone racist? Isn't it really a term aimed against behavior rather than ethnicity?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Robert - I agree, your point still stands, despite everything that's come between. And if it helps people who've never heard it used outside of a US bar/parade context, I've heard it used - and justified - as a term of abuse by "full blood" Irish people against "half breeds" i.e. people like me
We're not "trying" or "pretending" to be anything. We're just who we are, more mixtures made by migration. And one of the people who used it in a pejorative sense was from Armagh - I'm sure they'd have taken very kindly to being told they were a "Brit". Not.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Marklar - I completely disagree with your definitions. Racism is the simple belief that one race is superior or inferior to another. If somebody's mother believes black folks are naturally/genetically better dancers, she is making a clear racist statement. Bigotry and prejudice are the negative outward manifestations of a racist mindset. Furthermore "nigga" is not a gentler, kinder version of the word nigger.
And to answer Robert Ryans' question - it's all about the context. A Plastic Paddy Pub is a perfect definition for the folks (as SWFL) described above and designed for the green beer crowd. However, Mick, Paddy, Harpy and several other 19th century slurs, when directed at Irish people with the express intent to put them down and define them as an inferior class of people, is indeed racist.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ding ding ding! Give that Marklar a cookie.
It's not racist, Robert, it's behavioral. If the President left the light on in the mansion for the Diaspora, and it's on for all of them, then correcting a false, commercial perception of Irish identitiy via a funny term is not racism, it's an attempt to correct a false impression of the culture held by some.
Providing it's used in that way, of course.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
So there's a distinct race of Irish people then? Really? How does one spot such people?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
...so if it's truly not used in that way for the majority of the time, so be it.
However, I can't imagine the entire island is filled with Nazi-like bigots eagerly searching out peoples' genetic histories in order to make judgement calls on them. I would imagine you've got a small but vocal group of jerks acting like eejits.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
The "N" word is commonly used by some black Americans as a put-down but in that context it's hard to argue it is racist. The context is the key. So words may be offensive but not necessarily racist depending on who is doing the name-calling and who is hearing the words.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by leoj
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Orson, your explanation helps quite a bit. Ah.
To address the thread's subject: NO.
The "Plastic Paddy" as a racist term seems based on context.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Pete, you wrote:
"But that means we need a more P.C. thing to call these pubs, and the whole associated scene. "
Would "Sham Rock" do?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Furthermore "nigga" is not a gentler, kinder version of the word nigger."
Right, it's a different word altogether, I think you missed my point on that one.
But my main point here is that using the term "racist" in this context trivializes the horrors of what I consider true racism to be.
I understand the point about racism being the belief that one race is superior to another, that's technically true. But in my mind the term racist implies some sort of real or implied action based on those beliefs. The KKK isn't feared solely based on what they believe, they are feared based on what they DO.
I guess you could say that my understanding of racism is more of a practical one based on observing actions, and is more about threats than mere insults or attitudes.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
>Has there been violence against "plastic paddys" in Ireland?
>Does the term cause fear in people? Are they denied jobs and
>equal treatment? I don't know. If so, then I'd consider it a racist
>term there.
I have a friend whose mother is Irish and whose father is American. His father told me that they decided that after living in her village the whole time they were married up until the time he was about 14, and after the kids never being accepted as Irish that entire time (much less the father, AND they held it against the wife that she married an American), that they should uproot from family and home and go to the US, because both felt that their children would never receive an equal education as their Irish peers. How do you count the cost of that?
It's not just the Irish, or the Americans, or the Brits, or whoever. It's people. My point is that it's not acceptable behavior in anyone anywhere. It's not acceptable to say "oh stop being politically correct" about racism and bigotry as if that's actually some kind of logical point.
Because if we accept it at all, we accept it all.
I like a funny joke as much as anyone. Lately a lot of people have been telling me jokes that sound very very racist but in a way are mainly about the racists and the racist behaviour themselves. Sure, they're funny. I find them ironic and telling. It's not like I don't have a sense of humor. I think it's ironically funny that people are still racist, among other things.
It's just that I don't think racism is acceptable. End of the story. If you want to define "racism" as something that I don't actually mean to prove some other point of yours, go to it, but know that what *I* define as racism is unacceptable behaviour in my eyes and the eyes of a lot of other people.
Do I think we need to use social pressure to make that a worldwide constant social pressure? Damn straight I do. There's no other way that it works. When racism and bigotry is considered something that should be as dead as the dodo, we stand a chance of raising kids who think racism and bigotry is something that should be dead.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Your opinion of racism is valid, but not necessarily universal.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It's totally misguided to think of people in terms of race. It's even more misguided to think of people from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales in terms of race. There aren't any races, I'm not even sure there ever were.
Paddy, plastic or otherwise is a cultural term - and if it's mistaken for a racial term then it's just wrong. It doesn't reduce the discrimination that may be implied, but it isn't racial.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Marklar you make some good points - but I'm still very unclear how nigga and nigger are different. I can think of no context, musical, conversational, or otherwise where one word is used differently than the other. Black Americans in a musical context conversely use it to disarm the word amongst themselves - or - remind another that they need to know their place. A double edged sword.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Thank you Pavif for finally stating the obvious - there really is no such thing as race from a scientific standpoint - it's all cultural "us vs them" mindsets that go back to the dawn of time.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"The "N" word is commonly used by some black Americans as a put-down but in that context it's hard to argue it is racist."
Actually, a lot of African Americans protest its use by other African Americans, though it's more about the history of the word than the person using it. But it still relates to racism. We are talking about the word with an "r" on the end here.
That's not to be confused with the word "nigga," which is often used as a term of endearment (though many still consider it offensive). The word with an "r" on the end is never used in that way.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It seems strange that several people have recounted personal experiences of racist abuse involving their denigration as 'plastic', yet others seem unable to move away from their own narrow, culturally-specific and colour-based conceptions of racism and identify that it is unacceptable to these people to be racially abused. Race may or may not exist, but racism does, definitely exist. Even for white people.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Pavlf makes an important point...it's one thing to call *someone* a plastic paddy....but quite another when used as a descriptive of some *thing* which embodies the elements of fake Irishness, isn't it? As a descriptive term for something that has about as much authenticity as green beer I can't see it being a big deal. But as a slur -- and that's what it is -- directed at a person whether by native Irish themselves against themselves or against 'non-Irish' Irish-Americans or whomever, I think that's an entirely different affair. But perhaps I'm just splitting hairs.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
yep, jusa. That sort of mentality is just as dangerous as racism, especially when it is erroneously conflated with notions of race. When cultures start to think it's a blood thing it invariably gets nasty from one direction or another.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Jusa, I cross-posted with you but I think I answered your question above.
Zina, I do consider it racist if children are denied equal education because of their ethnic background. So yes, that would be racism.
But that's not the same thing as calling an American with little or no Irish cultural background a "plastic paddy" because he considers himself Irish. So I guess the term could be racist or not depending on context. And where it's used: from your example it seems a much more serious issue in Ireland than here.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Actually there IS a racist slur inherent in "plastic paddy" as used by the Irish people I've heard who defined it as such for me. They mean that their blood is not inherently purely Irish, whatever that's supposed to mean. They mean that those children can never be Irish, even if both parents were Irish who happened to have immigrated elsewhere. This is supposedly inherent in their blood somehow.
I don't think it's actually supposed to make sense in a logical way.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Look, I'm not white, do I have to say? I know what racism and bigotry look like from the receiving end, and even from the Chinese end, as in Hong Kong I'm what's known as an ABC -- an American Born Chinese. Some of the street merchants in Hong Kong will find out if you're a "banana" and charge you more in their shops.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Strange that you should think that because it's cultural it's not racist. The British, in the heyday of Empire, referred to all dark-skinned people, whether African, Asian or Australian, as 'wogs'. It wasn't a distinction predicated on the tedious classifications of 19th Century race theory as such, but it was a racist nomenclature nonetheless. Of course it's cultural, but it's based on a conception of race which, like all conceptions of race, is unutterable crap, as well as being, inherently, racist.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"The word with an "r" on the end is never used in that way."
Actually, I should have said "almost never." But you get my point, the words are used differently.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
That should, of course, have read 'unutterable b o l l o c k s'. I do apologise.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"I don't think it's actually supposed to make sense in a logical way".
That's the problem, it is, but it doesn't.
It is discrimination. Yes. But it's based upon a set of totally imaginary constructs.
Someone in Ireland (with a distinctly anglo-saxon surname, ironically) once asked me if I was "one of our Celtic cousins". I replied that I was 'from' England. He never really spoke to me again.
I don't believe in blood. Such beliefs seem to make it flow more often than not.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
The whole notion of "racial purity" hinges on this "us" and "them" dichotomy. And underneath that is the deeper implication of who supposedly "belongs" and who doesn't.; who can claim the right pedigree and language etc.
Wonder if the Normans would have been considered 'plastic paddys'?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
For me the question of how the "loaded" word, what ever it is, is intended must be taken into account. Yes, the "N" word (however you spell it) may be offensive to some blacks ( and others) but if you're not black you'll have a difficult time trying to tell someone who is that they ought not use the term. Who is doing the name calling? How is it perceived by those to whom it is directed? Is the intent to hurt or to provoke a response? If so, then what kind of response?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by leoj
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
p.s I agree with you Robert. It's crap.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Marklar, I think your belief that it's acceptable to disabuse an individual of their own cultural or ethnic identification in an abusive and demeaning way is quite unacceptable. You seem to be concerned to represent the dangers of racism in the US and make the point that true racism is directed against African Americans. I would say that by your own rationale it's acceptable to tell a black American that they're not African-American, because they have no African cultural connections. I think that very few black Americans have much of a connection to Africa beyond their genomes, yet white guilt decrees that it's unacceptable to mock that self-identification. What's the difference for white Americans of Irish descent?
I'm not saying that there isn't something a little sad and fragile about forming an identity based on the tenuous link of one Irish great-grandparent or something like that, but why use a term of abuse to express that? In a pesonal and demeaning way? It doesn't make sense, other than in the context of bigotry and narrow-minded, self-appointed judgement.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Obviously there are two distinct situations re: "Plastic Paddy"
1. Where bigots and eejits in Ireland act like a$$holes towards others.
2. Where well-meaning and culturally sensitive Americans take exception to obnoxious popular cultural expressions of "Irish" and use teasing and slagging to make their feelings known.
So, where’s the ruling? Guess what? There isn’t one. No one is in charge of it.
The essence of why it’s used is the key, and it takes intelligence and understanding to comprehend that.
Anecdote: Was playing a local festival one year. It’s Florida in February, lovely weather. Had khaki dress pants on, loafers and a white collar shirt. The lads and I had a great time, the crowd dug it, all was well. While coming off the stage, packing up, etc. a gentleman comes up to me and asks me “Why aren’t you dressed Irish?” obviously referring to some of the other acts that day who seized the opportunity to dress up like some sort of horrible auto accident involving a Renaissance Fair, a Scottish Pipe Band and what American hippies think Irish people wear when going on an outing.
“Did you know that it’s the 21st century in Ireland as well? I AM dressed Irish, they dress just like we do! They have Levis Jeans now! They’re terribly excited about it.”
I just can’t help myself sometimes. Is that OK? Am I being racist if I use vicious sarcasm and then come on here afterwards and complain about such ‘Plastic Paddyism’?
Me thinks not.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Jesus Christ. Any time and energy spent on worrying about the term "plastic paddy" is time better spent practicing yer instruments.
I hope to God the onset of the Obama administration doesn't augur an epidemic of p.c. navel-gazing and communist party-style self-criticism sessions.
And to equate the "n" word with plastic paddy in ANY way is just ridiculous. Don't wanna be called a "plastic paddy?" Don't be plastic. Holy crap...what's so complicated about that?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
What if you're plastic because your parents emigrated from Ireland? You obviously didn't read the thread.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Thanks jwvansteenwyk, whoever the f u c k you may be. I'll go back to practising as you've told me. Yes massa. Us coconuts know our place.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
If someone calls you a plastic paddy only because your parents came from there, then they don't know what it means. If they call you a PP because they think you make too much of your "Irishness", then they are insulting you in a non-racist way. Again - IT IS IN NO WAY RACIST TO CALL SOMEONE A FAKE! To call them a paddy...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Chrishty
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
That's the point lads. It doesn't matter what words someone uses, WHAT exactly are they doing?
Are they being offended because someone thinks they should be wearing a kilt, a Renessaince Fair shirt with fluffy arms and a giant fuzzy green top hat to sing Irish folk songs and fiddle Irish dance tunes?
Or, are they actling like a bigoted a$$hole based on how their victim was born?
So, to brand the first racist because of the second, is just as small minded as being racist in the first place, and showing the same, shallow level of understanding.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"move away from their own narrow, culturally-specific and colour-based conceptions of racism"
Historically, skin color has been a primary basis for racism. I understand that racism goes way beyond color, and that certain groups of people have been subjected to everything up to and including genocide based on other things than skin color. But "racism" is based on a notion of genetic distinction, and skin color has always been the most common dividing line, so much so that "race" implies a certain skin color. So I don't think it's narrow to focus on discrimination based on skin color when talking about racism.
Now, I know that there's really no such thing as "races" as we're all part of the human race. But it doesn't matter that the concept of "race" is bogus, as long as there are actions and attitudes based on race then the distinctions matter, from a practical perspective anyway.
If someone is beating you because of your ancestry, it's not going to do much good to point out that we're all part of the same family and that "race" is an arbitrary and scientifically false distinction.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
SWFL, don't you think that now you know that the term is a pejorative slur that it would be time to come up with another term to replace it when referring to fake, commercialized Irishness?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Pure Irish" - now that strikes me as funny. The island has been invaded more times than Madonna. Therefore, let me just say I am very proud of my pure Gaelic-Viking-Celtic-Pictish-Danish-Anglo-Roman-Norman-Saxon blood. (Did I leave anybody out? Apologies to any shipwrecked Spaniards I may have neglected....
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I was once referred to (by a black man) as a "Jewish nigga, blad". I was quite chuffed.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Me? I like to think of myself as teflon. Not plastic.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Jusa....I think a little of that mail-in-gentic-testing is in order! lol. I have a cheek swab ready right here....
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Marklar, I think your belief that it's acceptable to disabuse an individual of their own cultural or ethnic identification in an abusive and demeaning way is quite unacceptable."
WHAT??!!! Where in the hell did I say that? Just because I don't think that something is racist doesn't mean that I condone it, give me a break! Racism isn't the only form of abuse in the world, you know.
I don't think that it's appropriate (except maybe in certain cases of actual discrimination) to cry "racism" over something like being called a "plastic paddy," for the same reason that I don't think it's appropriate to equate every leader who abuses power with Hitler. That doesn't mean that I approve of leaders who abuse their power, does it?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"it's not going to do much good to point out that we're all part of the same family and that "race" is an arbitrary and scientifically false distinction"
Perhaps not, but it might do them some good if they actually listened and understood - though to be honest anyone who berates you because of your ancestry has pretty well ruled out appeals to rationality.
Jusa - is right.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Marklar, I respect your opinion, but I've always felt it to be racist. It's unpleasant, thin skin or not.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"It's unpleasant, thin skin or not."
I'm sure it is, and I'm not saying that you don't have a right to be upset about it. But you have to understand the kinds of things I think of when I hear the word "racism," things that go way beyond insult and unpleasantness.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Plastic Paddy is a horrible expression. I suggest that we line them all up against a wall and pepper them full of bullets so that we never have to use the expression ever again.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I do understand, you've made it clear. That doesn't invalidate my association of 'plastic paddy' with racism. Your associations may be more extreme than mine, but racism does come in degrees.
I'm not equating being called a plastic paddy with being subjected to a pogrom, but extreme racism doesn't make racism that's less extreme acceptable.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I said that to balance the two sides of the argument a bit. It's polarising too much.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Good man.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Thanks, yeah, I thought I did a good job
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It'd have to be a pretty big wall. China? Logistical nightmare mate.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Godd a place as any. At least you'd get away with it there. Zeens would be too far south in Hong Kong to stop it.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Actually, as the Irish are descendants of the Galicians, it should be more accurate to use the expression "plastic Galician" to refer to Irish, American and a lot of other people. Doing an exercise of free translation I'd say "plastic pepiño".
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I don't know. Her organisational skills are pretty formidable.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
We could take out the Aussie ones as a priority then cause they're the most embarrassing.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Plastic pepiño. Sounds like a cheaper version of something used to stimulate the... Nah, don't want Jeremy to wipe my account.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh no, you went there.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
How easily one slips from a refutation of racism to the advocacy of genocide... All in a day's, erm, work? I think I'd better go and have some tunes and a few pints. See where it's gone when I get back from the pub.
Muhaha!
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
How do you know? She swore she'd burned the pictures...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hey Rev, I suppose so, but at the same time it feels like being dictated to by the ignorant bigots who use it negatively.
Does that make sense? We can't use it positively because some eejits use it negatively? Hmm, don't think I like that.
For example, if no one used "Paddy" as a nickname for "Patrick" because it once had negative connotations, then the word would have been lost. In addition, those that use it negatively would have ‘won’ the battle of the word ‘Paddy’.
Ultimately, as one of those troublesome Yankees who thinks Freedom of Speech is a great idea (I know, we’re all crazy) the notion of someone telling me what I can and can't say is anathema.
An insult using racism (where/how a person was born) simply reflects poorly on the insulter. There’s no need to get yer knickers in a twist. It ain’t you with the problem, it’s the eejit. No, you can’t make laws and rules to fix eejits. They’ll still be eejits even if you make a law about it.
So, perhaps there’s my beef. It feels like people are trying to tell me what I can and can’t say.
Not that I care all that much, really, it’s more of a principle. I have much more biting ways to address yo-yos expecting me to be dressed like a leprechaun when I’m playing a gig.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"No, you can’t make laws and rules to fix eejits. They’ll still be eejits even if you make a law about it."
That's very true, as the past 50 years of history in the Deep South have proven.
In fact, it can make it worse. A part of the current problems relate to the fact that it's no longer socially acceptable to be openly racist, which has somewhat backfired in the sense that ethnic minorities can no longer tell who's a threat and who isn't, leading to the almost necessary assumption that anyone who is not a part of the same ethnic group is a threat.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
SWFL, it's up to you to decide you should and shouldn't say. But it's pretty clear from some of the posts in this thread that the origin of the phrase is as a slur, and we've picked up on it to describe something different.
So would you feel comfortable using the N word in a 'positive context', if it meant something related, but different? (If there could be such a thing...) I think the point that a number of people are trying to make here is it's a slur, and offensive.
So now that I am aware of the origins of the phrase, and know that people use it as such to this day, it makes me want to find another word or phrase to use. Because the use of the term, however innocuously, would reflect upon me negatively in some people's eyes...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And this is a different situation than the "over the top" political correctness. Like calling someone "vertically challenged", because calling them "short" might hurt their feelings...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"And this is a different situation than the "over the top" political correctness. Like calling someone "vertically challenged", because calling them "short" might hurt their feelings..."
Actually, as a person with dwarfism I consider "vertically challenged" to be condescending and mildly insulting (though I don't get upset over it as I know people mean well...). Disability goes along with dwarfism and I find terms like "otherly able" to be even worse, I really do take offense at that one. Do we need a special condescending term for people who can't throw a fast ball?
There's nothing wrong with being called "short" or "disabled," they are accurate descriptive terms with (usually) no malice behind them.
By the way, do I have to throw away my "world's tallest leprechaun" button now? Am I a "plastic paddy" for wearing it on St. Patrick's day?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Then of course there's the person who's been quietly chipping away at the seams of Irishness for years and years eventually being accepted by a couple of the locals and even getting in on the "in" jokes who feels confident enough to be able to call newcomers blow-ins which really makes them more plastic paddy than the plastic paddies themselves...
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Right on, Pat. (Or should I say Paddy?)
Did you know that Tina Lech and Dana Lyn (sp?), both excellent fiddle players of Asian ancestry, once had a band called "The Rice Paddies"?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Chrishty
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think it's important to keep in mind that emigrants from Ireland (and I'm speaking from experience specifically about ones who went the USA here) have settled in other countries.
They can not be expected to drop all connections to their motherland, not on the first day abroad and not two or three or ten generations later.
In the US, I think there is an Irish-American culture all of its own, which should not invite disrespect. The Irish-American culture is exactly as the name indicates: steeped in many of the values and traditions of Ireland, and from the perspective of a people with a few generations of experience in the New World. It's an accomplished culture (look at our contributions to politics, infrastructure, and broader American culture). However, it will always have ties to Ireland and that is part of it.
The fact that it is SIMILAR, and originates from Irish culture, yet has evolved into something quite different, is not a tragedy, and there is almost no need for the term 'plastic paddy.' We're American paddys, and proud of it. We've helped build a new country, which has enjoyed much success in part due to our contributions. We've made it here. We're happy. We're not coming back, and we reserve the right to dye our rivers green and drink Guinness and Budweiser itermittenly. Thanks for your consider elitists.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by a sheamuis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"... the Irish are descendants of the Galicians ..."
A sweeping statement, if ever I heard one. Some of them might be.
"... it should be more accurate to use the expression "plastic Galician" to refer to Irish ..."
They arrived in Ireland long before plastic was invented. They should be named after whatever the latest man-made material was back then. 'Bronze Galicians'?
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
My English is a bit poor so I had to search "sweeping statement" in the dictionary. Of course it's a sweeping statement, but I was only refering to the story about the Tuatha Dé Danann and the Milesians. Actually, we have lots of things in common, we are potato eaters too, and play tunes in 6/8. But on the other hand we prefer wine to beer. And spuds came from America...
Oh, I've forgotten what I was to say
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"They can not be expected to drop all connections to their motherland, not on the first day abroad and not two or three or ten generations later."
or twenty generations? 50, 100, 1000, fiftythousand?
Where does it stop? Does it stop when you remember that you didn't help build a "new" country, you stole it from the people who were already there.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, considering where the people who settled Ireland came from geographically, are Irish people "plastic froggies"?
[just a joke, no offense intended to the French. J'aime le Français]
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Where does it stop? Does it stop when you remember that you didn't help build a "new" country, you stole it from the people who were already there."
But that's true of almost every country. I mean, there were people in Ireland before the Gauls got there, the Normans didn't exactly immigrate to England, India was settled through conquest, most Aussies aren't exactly native to the continent, and on and on. It's not a situation unique to America. It's been going on for tens of thousands of years, since before recorded history.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Agree with Marklar...there's no limit. It's not like you reach a 30 year expiration date and it's over.
Cultures evolve organically. I think it's a testament to the Irish culture that its effects are so lasting.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by a sheamuis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
of course it's true of almost every country, that's the point I'm making. Just go back generations and keep going. Keep going back to the first humans in the African rift valley and keep going back further. Look for your roots and your kin not in those that appear familiar, but in all the life that surrounds you. from beauty to beasties.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"’No, you can’t make laws and rules to fix eejits. They’ll still be eejits even if you make a law about it.’
That's very true, as the past 50 years of history in the Deep South have proven.”
I don’t think I can accept that point – at least not completely. I’ve lived in the Deep South for sixty-one years and I’ve seen profound changes in the racial attitudes and prejudices of the people. Forty-five years ago, I witnessed Klan thugs beating two black ministers who tried to enter a public library in Anniston, Alabama. Just a few years later, my dad was threatened by some of the same goons bearing shotguns and pistols because he tried to lay a pipeline, using black laborers, along the public right-of-way in front of a service station belonging to the local Klan leader. My parents’ generation (including my dad, despite this incident) tolerated, rationalized and enabled the discrimination and violence. Two generations later, we’ve come a long way.
It’s true, though, that the hard-core racist bigots didn’t just disappear. But, by force of law, they lost the ability to maintain the “tradition” of hatred and shameful treatment of black people. And, by way of the new social order, enforced by law, my generation and the next largely lost the habit of speaking and thinking about black people in the old hateful, demeaning ways. That chain is pretty well broken.
Now, the societal progeny of that old hard-core have taken refuge in various far-right-wing enterprises and are gearing up to aim their venom at Mexican immigrants (illegal and legal). The attitudes and habits of speech and thought that we (Americans) apply toward this new population will have real effects on the way this chapter plays out, whether or not we think they should.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
True, Bob, things have gotten better, no doubt. But I'm not as optimistic as I once was, there is still a lot of bigotry under the surface, but it's harder to see it now. Laws have helped a lot with discrimination, but kids are still being raised to hate minorities, though as you say it's to a much lesser degree than it once was.
And yes, it's scary how the anti-Mexican thing has taken off so quickly, and a lot of that stuff is out in the open. Same with people who are Muslim, or just appear to be.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
The US of A, for all our criticism which is really aimed at a few rich people pulling the strings, has changed, for the better. I visited the country this year and the only reference I heard to black people was by two Irish men, which is typical.
The "have nots" in any country, created by inequality, are always kept in their place by the "haves" by the simple expedient of giving them someone to hate, and feel superior to. Hence the "poor white trash" in the Southern States and working class urban protestants in N.Ireland.
Now the vitriol is aimed at Mexicans, who amazingly all work for far right rich people. Strange that.
To answer the question, racism should not be tolerated anywhere.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Now the vitriol is aimed at Mexicans, who amazingly all work for far right rich people. Strange that."
Actually, it was the rich people (not all far right, but wealthy people do tend to lean to the right) who created the situation in the first place.
They brought in cheap labor from across the border and their cronies in the federal government turned a blind eye to it. I've heard from people who would know that a certain chicken processing giant would actually send buses to the border to pick up illegal workers (this was in the late '80s, not sure about now).
That's also why I think that congress pushed stupid ideas like a wall along the border to please the far right-wingers, because they knew it wouldn't do anything and they really didn't want to crack down on the employers. The right-wingers don't like the Mexicans taking over "our" country, but the rich sure like the profit margins they can get with illegal immigrant labor.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think I'm a plastic Cornishman. Or tin Cornishman. That's better. No, hang on! Tin Cornishperson. There. Boxes ticked.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I don't have time to be a racist ---
I'm more of a rat- raciist.
Sorry, gotta go
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Piece
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"... I'm not as optimistic as I once was, there is still a lot of bigotry under the surface, but it's harder to see it now."
I cannot disagree. "Segregation forever!" doesn't play anymore, but indirectly disenfranchising minority voters does.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I was just wondering why it was that Irish residents, if it's that's who they were, felt the need to call outlanders, re-emigries, exiles, whatever the term one might use, "plastic paddies" ?
Perhaps it's because they themselves felt threatened in some way, their insecurities heightened by these people who were trying to reclaim a birthright, when there has been for a long time within Ireland an unspoken despising of those who, it was felt, had taken the 'easy option' of leaving the country for a 'easier life' in a new land ?
Certainly, from my talking to people in my visits to the US from the late '70s' onwards, I felt that there was an ignorance of current events and political progress in Ireland because the emigries remained fixed in their memories of the old country, and both could only interpret current events through this filter of old enmities, and were also not well served by transatlantic news coverage, which similarly tried to present things in a way acceptable to this mentality. I could see how you could go back to Ireland with this mindset and not be well received.
Of course, a lot of Irish-Americans have gone back, over the years, to try to re-find their heritage. Sean Cannon remarked that they always seemed to be rich, and that they always tried to be kind to these visitors, and of course they would have done the same had they been poor.
He also told of a Texan, driving a large hired car, who pulled up by a farm gate where the local farmer was puffing at his pipe at the end of a day;
"Hey, tell me what you guys do around here ?"
"Why, I'm a farmer, sir."
"Hey, I'm a farmer myself, back in Texas. How big's your farm ?"
"Why, it's forty acres, sir."
"Forty acres ! Back in Texas, my farm is so big I can drive all day, and I haven't seen all of it."
Ah, sure, I used to have a car like that myself onetime."
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Sean Cannon remarked that they always seemed to be rich"
Of course, because poor bastards like me (I'm exaggerating, don't ask me what I drive) can't afford to travel like that. That's where the "ugly American" image comes from: people overseas generally encounter the wealthy leisure class of Americans rather than the average Joe. Personally, I don't care for being represented overseas by people like that.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
A black guy, a priest and two Plastic Paddies walk into a bar....
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by shanty
Since this thread has a foot in the door
Racism & racial discrimination categorizes people as inferior or superior dependent on visible traits. The premise is faulty. It is not acceptable.
Robert Ryan, please correct me if I am wrong . . . I believe you are concerned about (similar) discrimination within Irish culture. The discussion could have been about chauvinistic exclusion*. That is tougher. Especially when you ask us about us.
It exists here. It serves no good purpose
* Irish races
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I prefer shirt-tail Irish, or Cuz
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'm not offended by plastic paddy - maybe if I was a man, and my name was Paddy, and I had a lot of prosthetic parts made from modern biomaterials. I would be much more offended by something like Yankee broomdancer, or Arran jumperlette, or Kerry cowgirl, or Nancy wee pastie. It's not racist anyway, it's just mean.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Cornwall is full of plastic pasties.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ang Toronto is full of meat patties.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
In Oregon you get free beef when you buy tires
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/67/185039391_49e631549c.jpg?v=0
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
An old friend of mine is called Paddy. I don't know if his birth certificate says Patrick. He introduces himself as Paddy.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Nice to see you come out of the woodwork zina. I played tunes with
you in Gundagai, along with about 300 other people
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Hup
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Of course, what's really going on is xenophobia, which is undeniably a part of the human character, but this does not necessarily make it acceptable in this day and age.
Zena's account of her friend having to move because they would never be accepted in a small community is not surprising, but it is sad. Try moving to a small village in Cornwall, Wales, Scotland. Come to a big city like London and everyone will treat you with the same indifference - is that any better ?
This is why we try to make our own communities within music and other special interest groups.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
What about people I know who call any local Irish theme pub "The Plastic Paddy"?
As in "meet you down the plastic paddy after work"
Who is supposed to be offended in that situation? Are they just one step away from genocide?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
that's pretty good - around here we called the "Horse Brass" pub the Iron Lung, although after the smoking ban goes into effect in January I'll have to come up with a new name. (by the way, apologies to anyone who requires a mechanical breathing apparatus)
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Random_Notes, I think I see the distinction you're making, but racism isn't just about visible traits. There's no immediately obvious visible difference between the English and the French, for example, but the historical relationship between the two countries/communities/races/nations/whatever has been fraught with undeniable racial tension. Racism is a word that describes prejudice predicated on false notions of fundamental distinctions inherent to differences in genetic/cultural/linguistic/racial groupings.
Whatever your view of race/racism/prejudice/whatever you want to call it, it's not nice.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Robert, I think that the English vs. French example is more about nationalism than racism. A lot of English are, after all, ethnically French if you go back far enough.
But you're right that it's wrong no matter what you call it. So in a sense it doesn't really matter. The Us vs. Them thing is a problem whether it's based on race, nationality, religion, or whatever.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Bren, I'm not suggesting that people who aren't offended by the term should somehow become offended by it, I'm just pointing out that it is an offensive term to some people. And yes, they are obviously stockpiling machetes in the back of irish theme pubs around the world, readying themselves for the onslaught of blood. Cartoon leprechauns are the devil's own, believe me. Quake in fear whenever you see them.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'm Irish. I live in Ireland.
My father isn't - my mate calls me a Plastic Paddy.
Same mate lives in Japan, has done for 10 years. I call him a Plastic Paddy. He doesn't get offended, and I don't.
I'm glad I live in Ireland. We say much worse things to each other, and no one ever gets offended.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yeah, Marklar, I don't believe in 'race' or 'blood' or any of that 19th Century twaddle either, but racism is the handiest descriptor for the kind of abuse that has as its foundation the dislike and denigration of an 'other' simply because they were born in another country. That's the use of the term that I object to.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hugo, the point is that he's your mate. That's kind of what I said in the first post: that there's a difference between a bit of slagging, racial or otherwise, between friends, and that between strangers. It's all about intent, innit?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, the term bigotry covers all the relevant ground nicely.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hugo, have you tried calling him a Plastic Pasty?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Would it help do you think if we just called people plastic Patricks instead?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Aye, bigotry it is then...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Naw, bigotry's evil. This is more of a case of willful obliviousness. Blame Bush for that too.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I have never herd this term used except on this board. I would laugh if someone called me that in the real world. I can't understand 180 responses. If they were tying 'plastic paddies' to fences and beating them up it would warrant some discussion. If 'plastic paddies' were being denied the right to get married or the right to vote maybe... but c'mone!!! If your an American of Irish ancestry why care what someone in Ireland thinks of you. If you get off on dressing like a big dumb lepurchaun and singing Wild Rover after 26 green Coors Lights here's to ya! Have a good time!
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by shanty
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Try renting in the cotswolds.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Regarding the term in question. I'd only heard it in terms of sh*te pubs over in the uk. But from what has been pointed out very eloquently above, it sounds like there is a nasty streak "battening down the hatches", trying to exclude, keeping everyone out, even though they might be their 2nd cousin.
I have no idea if that has any basis in reality, just my thoughts from reading the thread.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I don't believe in blood. Such beliefs seem to make it flow more often than not.
# Posted on November 20th 2008 by pavlf
That sums it up.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
ok Marklar, sorry, I get where you're coming from. A thousand apologies. I've been commenting as I've been reading. The thread is long. Life is short. Etc. Once again, sorry.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
No problem, I was just confused, didn't know what you were getting at.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And if anyone wants to know my attitude, I think any sort of discrimination stinks in this day or age. Racism, obviously; and whatever ism you want to add to the equation. Personally speaking, I'm apparently a manic-depressive... do I want you to filter anything I say through that? Well, if you're beginning to think you want to, let me just add that 12 months ago I wasn't a manic-depressive. At least, according to the doctors, my family, my friends, my acquaintances, my all the fecking people I'll ever meet again to whom I now have to take a different attitude to. Should I lie or not? Personally speaking, I think these diagnoses are not worth the sh*te on the walls they're scrawled in.
Here's some interesting reading: http://theicarusproject.net/files/britishpsychologicalsocietyrecentadvances.pdf
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
(didn't see your last there Marklar)
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Dominic Behan used to call it "shamrockery".
Is that more acceptable?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
yes -shamrockery. has the word exclusion been mentioned yet? I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that not being accepted (for no good reason) feels a lot different than being hated for no good reason. And sorry to hear about MD MM.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by airport
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
How about "Shamroguery" or "Shamrogues"?
Whatever way you look at this there is a negative element to finding a word to describe something you don't like. But surely it is acceptable to if it is done to explain why you feel a certain way about something rather than to specifically deride a person.
I know and respect a person who also happens to be guilty of the most awful Shamroguery at times - likes to belt out Danny Boy in his operatic baritone and fails to understand why I don't really seem overjoyed at the prospect of accompanying him. Outside of this erroneous behaviour the man is a caring genius.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Donough
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
If I have an Irish/Scottish/Welsh/Chinese/icelandic/indigenous (nominate your whatever ethnic heritage you want) background and choose to identify as a person of that ethnicity, then I would expect people to respect my decision and acknowledge my ethnicity. I find it surprising that some on this board feel they are in a position to judge others on these matters.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by zepherin
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
i find myself surprised and offended by most of what i have read here. i'll Bow Out with this: i wish y'all would quit callin' us Yanks!
Bye Now,
Pipewatcher
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Pipewatcher, you'll be pleased to know that we also have a term here: "Plastic Yank" - so feel free to join the ranks of the Even More Mortally Offended.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I've avoided comment here so far as I don't usually fare too well in these type of threads and have been known to cause International incidents in the past...
The thing is that over the years many of us and especially our parents have used terms or words which we would now consider to to be unacceptable. In the geat majority of these situations, there was no ill intent meant and we(they) wouldn't have considered ourselves to be racist. If anything at all, it was just "ignorance".
Now, of course, we realise that the "N" word is very offensive and wrong along with many other words and expressions. We are now more aware and "politically correct" (Though this has become a derogatory term by the more bigoted people who are resistant to change), I suppose.
Like many people here, I have also used the expression "Plastic Paddy" but was ignorant of its full meaning and history. I really thought that it just referred to those who performed or enjoyed "over commercial and watered down Irish music/ballads" which you encounter in so called Irish pubs around the world specifically for tourists and those who only have a superficial interest.
So, I thank Robert for drawing this subject to our attention and, personally, I will not use this expression in future. Of course, I haven't meant any harm up until now but that would be no excuse or defence for me to continue to use such an expression (or any other) now that I've been made aware of its history and full connotations.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by John J.
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
On a lighter note, It's great to have you back Zina...even if it's just for a short while.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by John J.
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
My faith in the potential for debate and intelligent exchange on this discussion board has been restored. I had assumed that most people were aware of the offensive nature of this term, but that clearly wasn't the case. I do acknowledge that it is only truly offensive when directed against individuals in order to denigrate their identities, and those who use it in that context will no doubt continue to do so. But I would hope now, after what has been quite an extensive and largely intelligent debate, that other users will be less tolerant of those who choose to direct this term of abuse against individuals here on the discussion board.
Happy tunes people.
RR.
Nice one.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, almost.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yes, let's continue to hope. Hope is our salvation.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well I feel I havo say i am an imigrant into Ireland. I have lived here for almost 12 years and I have NEVER heard the term Plastic Paddy used here. People who return here after living elsewhere are often referred to as having come home. I am asked occasionally by someone I meet for the first time "When did you come home" and I am English (NOT I Might add a "Brit", that is a term I find offensive) and of Irish descent. I have been referred to as an Englishman but Never plastic Paddy. Maybe I go around with my ears shut or something. I found however that as a child living in Sheffield England in the 1940's I was often bullied and beaten because I was seen as an "Irish Catholic" and the term used "We Cruxify catholics" in the process, now that is real racism, I think I would rather have been called a Plastic Paddy that wouldn't have hurt at all, the beatings most certainly did.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Bernie
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
In case there's any remaining doubt, take a look at the following definitions, gratefully received by email. Of particular interest is #4, where the term is utilised in what was, personally, a previously inconceivable sectarian context:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plastic+paddy
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Robert, you raise a good point, because I think a lot of the disagreement in this thread is coming from the different ways that the term can be used. In some cases is seems fairly benign, but used in other ways it does seem racist, or at least bigoted in some sense.
When it's used to denigrate someone who lives in Ireland for not having full Irish blood and being a "half-breed" or because they are protestant or something like that, then it's clearly bigoted. I didn't know that it was used in that way, so thanks for educating me on that. I had thought it was just a term for people claiming to be Irish because of a distant relative or because it's convenient on St. Patrick's day or something.
But in which sense was it used against you? Not that there is any excuse for it, if it hurt you then it hurt you, and I'm not trying to belittle that.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I wonder what Eric Bogle thinks of all this…
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
There's plastic shamrocks on the walls, there's Guinness and green beer
And a sign in Gaelic above the bar which says "God Bless All Here!"
His guitar sounds like a wardrobe, and it's out of tune at that
His singing voice it ranges from F-sharp to F-flat
He's just desecrated "The Holy Ground", ripped apart "Black Velvet Band"
Sang, "Seven Nights Drunk" and now he's sunk "The Irish Rover" with all hands
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
The publican's a Proddy Scot by the name of McIntyre
Who does not allow collections for "The Men Behind The Wire"
He's done awful things to "Molly Malone" and the fair "Rose Of Tralee"
He's murdered "Carrickfergus" and poor old "Mother McCree"
He's thrashed his way through "Galway Bay" and "The Wild Irish Rose"
And if he starts singing "Danny Boy" I'm gonna punch him in the nose
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
There's Aer Lingus poster everywhere showing pretty Irish scenes
All peaceful and idyllic, and very bloody green
"When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" and "The Mountains of Mourne"
In his search for Celtic cliché your has left no stone unturned
Till he embarks upon "The Harp Once Through Tara's Halls"
Accompanying himself of the bodhran which takes a lot of balls
He's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
In a plastic paddy pub that's called "The Blarney Stone"
He's just sung in his mother tongue, the ancient Irish Erse
And cleared the pub completely by the forty-second verse
Yes he's just a plastic paddy, singing plastic paddy songs
He's started singing "Danny Boy" so it's time that I was gone
And just one thought comes to my mind as I stagger out the door
Where are you when we need you Christy Moore?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Robert, I just noticed from your bio that you live in England, and of course your last name is Ryan. If you come from an Irish family and are called a "plastic paddy" for living in England, then I can definitely see why you're offended.
That's very different from calling an American with a great great great great uncle who came from Ireland a "plastic paddy" for claiming to be Irish just because it's fashionable, which is how I understood the term.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh, it's been trotted out on too many occasions to be recounted really. A classic and easily generalised example would be the drunk Irish girl (non-musician) who started talking to me between sets of tunes, heard my English accent, asked what I was doing playing Irish music, if I had any Irish connections, then said, 'Ah, you're only a f u c king plastic paddy, then', when I told her where my parents are from. It wasn't meant as a joke, and obviously the problem is hers, but it's not exactly great craic, and I'm bored of it now. I generally keep my self to my self when I'm out and about, but when people inquire, I don't like to be deliberately rude. I used to be a lot more sensitive to it when I was younger, but it still winds me up. The 80s were not a great time to be part of the Irish community in England, in many respects. Irishness was not 'cool' then as it is now, for political reasons, so in some sense first generation Irish got it from both sides simultaneously: too Irish in England, and not Irish enough in Ireland.
When my parents' generation came to Ireland in the 50s and 60s, and throughout the Troubles of the 70s and 80s, the Irish were heavily discriminated against in every way, including institutionalised police violence. It's understandable in those circumstances, I believe, for Irish immigrants to be wary of English society, and to create a strong Irish community, which their children quite naturally become part of. Irish identity wasn't something that my generation adopted, we were given it by our families, and those of us who were lucky enough to go 'home' on a regular basis felt it as something entirely natural, if difficult because of anti-Irish sentiment in England, and anti-English sentiment in Ireland. That's why I am so 'thin-skinned' about this subject, and why I would like to see this term put to rest.
I think the description most people of my background have given to themselves is London-Irish, which seems fair enough, but some people feel the need to offend against that, and I personally think it's none of their business how I identify myself. I have my reasons, and people, I feel, should be able to respect that.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ah, OK, now I can see why you're so upset. I had no idea that the term could be so offensive, I'd only heard it used jokingly against Americans who were being silly. Never used it myself, because it could be used against me considering that I'm an American of Scots-Irish descent with no connection to the culture aside from playing Irish music.
Anyway, I think we've learned something valuable here, or at least I have, and it only took 200 posts to get there.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Robert - well said, a very typical experience.
SWFL (and fellow travellers) - I no longer care if I'm allowed to stay on this board or not, so for F U C K ' S S A K E could you please just stop digging? And READ the earlier comments in this thread?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yep, well said Robert (yes, I'm back, so ye detractors may shove yer opinions up where it may hurt most) - as a Scot in England I have suffered abuse because of it but all it did was make me think less of the persons who made the remark (at the back of my mind I would be thinking "oh, so THIS is racist abuse - how interesting - why do they bother doing that, can't they find something else about me to pick on, eg, that I'm a vastly superior intellect, musician, athlete, more handsome than them, and so on?"
)
But of "Racism" within these islands (I don't care whether it is not strictly "Racism" - that term will do for these purposes, we all know what we're talking about, so leave the semantics out of it thanks), my belief is the worst I've seen is Scots abusing English people resident in Scotland. As if they were personally responsible for hundreds of years of wars between the two nations. I have never been subject to that amount of abuse reciprocally down here.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Discussions toward reconciliation in TheSession
History repeats itself ~ that is the problem with history.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yeah, no matter what shape or form it takes, it doesn't, ever, do any good. Being comfortable in your heritage, secure in your identity, shouldn't necessitate the abuse of one whose heritage or identity is different, surely? I imagine the inadequacies originate elsewhere, in more personal repsects, but they often find expression in the collective, mob-mentality that underlies racism. Or whatever you wnat to call it.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Racism
Robert ~ good thread.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yeah, informative, wasn't it?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just to clarify my objection to the term "racism" from an American perspective, in America anyone of Irish descent is simply considered to be "white." There is a history of abuse of the Irish in America, but unlike many other ethnic groups that is largely gone now.
So you have to understand that for a person of Irish descent to complain of racism in America could be quite offensive to people of African, Asian, Native American, etc. descent, because of the history here.
Not that it really matters, abuse is abuse, just wanted to clarify why I oppose the use of the term "racism" in this context from an American perspective, but it's a whole different thing for people in the UK and Irish Republic.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Er, probably should have said Republic of Ireland, not Irish Republic, but anyway...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
What if they were the victims of black racism?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I am of Norwegian, Swedish, Dutch, and English heritage. My great-grandfather wrote about his struggles with his family when he decided to marry someone that was not Swedish. My grandfather also encountered problems when he (full-blooded Norwegian) wanted to marry (and did) the daughter of the "mixed marriage."
Being lumped into categories is offensive to begin with, but then further insulting to be considered "white."
I've always been proud of my heritage as are the folks from where I hail, North Dakota. Try telling them that they aren't Norwegian because they don't live in Norway. (or Icelandic, or Swedish, etc.)
The thing that is offensive is just that, folks telling other folks that their blood ain't blue enough, or green enough, or black enough...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by wyogal
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'm being pedantic, but it is worth bearing in mind that monopolising racial victimisation in those (forgive me) black and white terms, is unhelpful, as well as somewhat narrow-minded and a little bigoted. There have been many racist attacks by black people against whites in the USA, and for black people to be offended by whites complaining of this is just not tenable. It might be worth bearing in mind that the standards of the USA are not universal, and that just because people of colour (I hate that phrase, sorry) might be offended by an Irish-American's complaint of racist victimisation, it doesn't invalidate it as a real and harmful event. Words have different connotations in different contexts, but some words are offensive to some people, regardless of intent. That's why enlightenment is so helpful, and ignorance so harmful.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Marklar ~ the Irish in the states were, at one time, mocked as being of a race less than human. Hopefully that history is in the past.
"Race" , as a term, is not universal. Largely due to faulty stereotypes about peoples (races?). In some conversations the term is understood. Other times it makes for a slippery slope.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Racism is racism. Period. It doesn't matter if it's in America or elsewhere in this wide world, it doesn't matter if the recipient is white or black or purple.
Some of the worst bigots I know are black. I know some horribly bigoted Asians. (Did you know that the most used word for "white people" in Chinese literally means "ghost"? For years and years, and for all I know, still in some places, white people aren't considered human.)
If someone in the US wants to take offense at a white person who says they're the target of racism, they can certainly do so, but that attitude should be the target of every thinking person's disdain.
Racism is not acceptable in any form.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"What if they were the victims of black racism?"
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean bigotry against someone who is of mixed African and Irish descent (which is not uncommon)? Unfortunately, in America anyone with even a small amount of African ancestry is treated as a "black person," and discriminated against accordingly. Hence Obama is considered a "black man," though it's complete nonsense all around. But that's the history and the reality of it.
wyogal, it's a bit ridiculous to be lumped into any category such as "white," "black," etc., but I'm talking about the reality of the way that things are, not the way that things should be.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Zina ~ people need to talk about why they see each other differently.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
What I meant, in this context, was a peson of Irish descent racially abused by a person of African descent.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Is that supposed to be a point of some kind?
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't talk about someone being different. Vive le difference. I'm saying that the point of view that "other people don't get to feel that they're as discriminated against because *we're* so much more discriminated against than they are" is not a well-thought out stance.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"If someone in the US wants to take offense at a white person who says they're the target of racism, they can certainly do so, but that attitude should be the target of every thinking person's disdain."
Spot on Zina.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Wait a minute, you guys that are talking about racism against "white" people by "black" people in the US, are any of you actually from the US?
I can understand that position for someone from another country, but if you think that anger at "whites" by "blacks" in the US is the same thing as racism against "blacks" by "whites", then you have a serious lack of understanding of the history and current situation here.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I am from the US. My parents were immigrants to the US. I am a first generation Chinese American.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
It's a race of races
I am in the states & have anything conceivable in my ancestry. European, African, Native American. People have babies.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
No Marklar, anger is an emotion. Racism is not. A group of black guys who kick a 'cracker' to death are not being angry, they are being criminally, murderously racist, in exactly the same way that a group of white boys are when they shoot a 'nigger'.
It's not about white gulit making black racist acts acceptable, it's about having the same standards for everyone. It's called equality, something I believe many people in the USA fought for for a long time, and which has still not been achieved. It's worth fighting for, and it's important not to make allowances for people simply because they've had a history of abuse. That is racist, and does not promote equality.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
One of the worst examples I've ever seen of racism was that Korean family who moved into a black ghetto and opened a grocery store. They were threatened on the street, things were thrown through their windows, someone set fire to the store.
Why? Because they weren't black.
My black friends were besides themselves with anger, shame, and fear. They had become by extension, the wrongers instead of the wronged, one told me.
Don't try to get all holier than thou on me, Marklar.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Calling acts of black agression directed against whites 'anger' and acts of white aggression directed against blacks 'racism' is making a very dangerous and racist distinction.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ooh, and just when I thought things had settled down...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, OK. I'm not "black" myself, but I've spent a lot of time discussing things like this with people who are, and believe me when I say that many of the things being said here would be considered extremely racist and offensive to many, and at the very least ignorant.
I take the point that any sort of bigotry is wrong, but you absolutely cannot ignore context and history when it comes to this. It is attitudes like this that perpetrate racial tension here in the US. I don't think that you guys have any idea how this looks through an African-American person's eyes. And to dismiss their feelings because you think that all bigotry is equal shows a real lack of understanding of race relations.
There is a difference between hate and anger. There is a difference between insults and lynchings. I don't think you guys understand this.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"it's important not to make allowances for people simply because they've had a history of abuse"
The reverse discrimination ploy. Wish I did not have to go off to work. That is my lot.
What about former colonies which are now suffering in the aftermath? Any responsibilities from the former empires?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
If plastic paddy was invented by the Irish themselves as a kind of derogatory slur for "outsiders" or even when it's jocularly used amongst themselves as Chavez comment above seems to indicate it still strikes me as a bit bizarre. Americans don't have a slag term for themselves, nor do Candians. In fact I can't think of anyone who does except the Irish! So, in ann odd sort of way it actually strikes me as a kind of SELF racism or 'reverse racism' if you want to call it that.
This self flagellating 'humour' seems to be a peculiarly Irish trait. Joyce himself noted that when he said, "ireland is the sow that eats its farrow"....I never quite understood it until now [although joyce was referring to another even in Irish politics of the time]
maybe it's true
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
sorry.."event in Irish politics"
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Mark, just so you know? Most people of color that I know in the US would look at your posts and not know whether to laugh or to cry.
How does a landslide start, Mark? How does the avalanche begin?
No one is dismissing anyone's feelings. The great majority are pointing out that those feelings are in fact shared by a great many people and can be empathized with by many, and that should be respected all around.
One of my friends who is black once told me that she cannot live her life trying to make her white friends pay for things that happened long ago, all she can do is fight to make sure that it doesn't happen to anyone else, of any color, ever again.
Her, I will go to the wall for.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
The problem is that you guys are up on your high horses talking about ideals, while ignoring the practical realities of the situation.
Yes, black-on-white violence is every bit as racist and criminal and wrong as white-on-black violence. But if you don't understand why people feel the way they do and where all this anger and hate comes from, then nothing will ever change.
If you have the attitude that blacks have no right to be angry about their history because they are expressing it in bigoted and wrong ways, then in a sense you are right about their behavior but wrong about their feelings, and nothing is going to change, which is a huge problem.
If you try to understand where that black person is coming from and why they feel the way they do, you might have a chance of changing things for the better.
I'm not talking about high-minded ideals here, I'm not even talking about right and wrong. I'm talking about practical reality.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh, random, like, erm, do you mean ME, because I was born in Britain?
Or like the English people I mentioned above being abused by Scots because they were born in England?
100-odd years ago the English *and* Scots put their own children down mines and up chimneys, never mind those of nations whom they enslaved.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think the point is that black people don't have a monopoly on racist victimisation. Why is that so difficult to understand? It's not racist, it's not bigotted. Why don't you respond to Zina's point about black racism towards Koreans? Why do you feel the need to defend black people who aren't even being attacked here? This is a thread about racist abuse doled out by white people to other white people. It happens, it's not impossible to understand. If black people in the US imagine that their historical suffering is minimised by the racism experienced by white people, they should chill out, it's in their minds, as I think most of the 'extremely racist and offensive' comments you perceive are in yours. Nobody's trying to minimise the reality of racism towards blacks in the US, but you're trying to minimise the racist experiences of others. I don't think you have a right to do that, whether you're black, or your friends ar eblack, or whatever colour you. Nobody's out to get you here.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yes, Danny, the whole point about anger is about class, and social exclusion, not race, which is itself a 19th Century capitalist invention. Poor black people in the US have a right to be angry, just as poor white people there have the same right to be angry about the same thing: social exclusion.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I know that black people aren't the only victims of bigotry, I'm speaking about them because that's the sort of bigotry I've seen all my life and know from first-hand experience, and also because it is one of the most severe forms of it, especially where I live.
I don't know much about bigotry against people of Asian descent because I haven't seen much of it first hand where I live, aside from being called a race traitor once for dating someone with Chinese ancestry.
I'm not trying to defend bigotry in any form or make excuses, I'm saying that for a person who is considered to be "white" to complain of racism in the US is going to be seen as offensive by many people. I've seen the anger caused by this attitude first hand.
And again, I'm not talking about the way things should be, I'm talking about the way things are.
Zina, please try to understand. I don't think we are as far apart on this as you think.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"you're trying to minimise the racist experiences of others."
No, I'm absolutely not, and I really hope that no one thinks that. That is very much not how I feel.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"The problem is that you guys are up on your high horses talking about ideals, while ignoring the practical realities of the situation."
Nope. The problem is that you're not talking about how to fix anything, you're just talking on and on about what you perceive to be the problem, which, as Rob says, isn't actually the point of discussion. NO ONE has run down blacks here, and no one has been discussing that except for, apparently, you. If anyone is being racist at all, it's you, because you seem to want to refuse to believe that anyone else's suffering might reach the level of those you believe are genuinely suffering.
There is only one practical reality of the situation. Racism is bad, in any form, by anyone.
Most people have things that they're bigoted about, but good, thinking people know that these are prejudices that aren't right to hold and to act upon, and so regardless of how they feel or privately think, they don't act upon them. I admire and salute these people, because they're the ones who are bringing up their kids differently, who try consciously to bring up a new generation who won't hold views or prejudices that they know are wrong.
That is the reality and the only practical way of dealing with the situation.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And your black friends who are angry because white people are complaining about being prejudiced against? They're being racist. And I say that as a person of color. And to be provocative, of course, although I'm not nearly so good at that as, say, Dow.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Marklar, I'm glad you've clarified your position, but it might have been helpful to do so a little earlier. If you believe that it's wrong for things to be the way they are, then don't defend them so vociferously and then wonder why people come crashing down upon you with their opinions.
It's obvious that this is a subject very close to your heart, and that you abhor racism perpetrated by white people against blacks. But it's quite understandable why people thus far have misunderstood your position.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Zina, please read my post above, and try to understand. I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from, maybe that's my fault, but your reaction doesn't match how I feel, and frankly I'm hurt that I'm offending you. And I'm sorry for that.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yes Robert, I must have put things badly considering the reaction, and I'm really hurt that I seem to have caused offense. I really am.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Until you've experienced racism it might seem like something exclusively aimed at non-white people but I'm a white male and I've experienced racism directed at me by another white male.
My name is not Paddy but at one time I lived in London and one particularly ignorant English person called me 'Paddy' using a very derogatory tone of voice. That was the first time I actually understood what it must be like for black people to be called 'n*gger'.
I'd warn anyone not to call any Irish person a 'Paddy' unless they are actually called Paddy.
To quote a story I heard. A man called Padraic was a bar tender in London, an English man walks into the pub and asks him his name. Upon hearing his name is Padraic he asks him 'Can I call you Paddy then?' 'No you may certainly not' replies Padraic.
Thing you've got to understand is that the term 'Paddy' when applied to an Irish person, particularly by an English person, is just as offensive as any white person calling a black person a 'nigger'. There is a similar historical context for it.
This seems to be lost on society today. It's not so long ago I saw Martin Johnson, the former English rugby captain refer to the Irish rugby team as 'The Paddies' on the BBC. There was no uproar or scandal about this, imagine what it'd would have been like if Gary Lineker described the Nigerian football team as 'The N*ggers'.............
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
You know, this all reminds me of that Beatles song about "We Can Work It Out" if you'll only just listen to ME and do things MY way, because then you'll see everything will be just fine.
Seriously, Mark. I give you lots of points for trying to do things right, and trying to see things the way that your black friends do, and to try to defend their position. But that position is flawed in a couple of different ways, as mentioned above. Do read and try to understand.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
No worries Marklar, I guess you just left out some important points when you were posting. It's easily done.
Have you heard of a book called 'The Redneck Manifesto' by Jim Goad? It's a somewhat provocative treatise on the historical consequences of indenture as an engine of economic migration. Some of it will probably make you angry, but it will certainly make you think, and it is largely intelligent and well-written. It deals with the way in which large numbers of poor whites from Europe came to British America, and the United States, and how their colour essentially refuses their descendants the status afforded to the descendants of slaves, despite the obvious economic and social hardships they have in common.
It also deals with the use to which racism has been put to divide blacks and whites, who have more in common with each other than with their rulers, by utilising 19th Century race theories and notions of racial superiority. The same thing happened in Britain during the Empire period: it's easier to control a working class population who believes themselves part of a master race in common with their rulers when you've got a global supply of dark-skinned scapegoats.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I've met that drunk girl many times Robert. There's one notorious one here in Tronna. I think you'll find that invariably they're the sort of person that listens to Boyzone or Garth Brooks and Neighbours is as far as international studies go. You present a threat to their notion of Irishness, they neither speak the language nor play the music, they probably subscribe to armchair republicanism or the boyfriend plays full forward for some GAA team (same thing in many eyes), they think ITM is that feckin' diddlyeye sh*te, they can't dance a set but they're the first ones up giving it two left feet after 6 pints, they can't finish the first line of any song but are the first to roar out blaming everyone else for not finishing it with them. They're the ones throwing rubbish on the street outside the chipper after the session because they can't be arsed walking over to the bin and who are you telling me to pick it up, this is my effing country. They are a generation who have no understanding of the consequences of the struggle for independence, civil war and subsequent nationhood but they were born there and who the f*** do you think you are telling me that Kylie isn't an Irish name, sure I know dozens of them on my street.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Class! That's the one...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hey Just a Person. If there was one thing this thread needed, it was a good laugh, and for everyone to relax. Don’t like Eric Bogle’s song? Sheesh. Everyone’s a critic.
Relax, you’ll live longer! But, I suppose it's much more fun to carry on with righteous indignation.
Enjoy! (?)
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It was somewhat fatuous SWFL, and it hardly contributed anything intelligent to the debate. Bogle's song is well out of date. And it's pretty 'plastic' itself, conforming to all the conventions of amusing, stage-Irish performance of its day.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh Lord, Robert, don't start going on about class struggles, or this thread will never end.....
A specter is haunting the yellow board........
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Sorry.
Actually, don't you oppress me....
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yes Zina, I'm trying to understand. We are coming from vastly different experiences I think, but I don't think that our core sentiments about racism are very different when you really get down to it.
I think that I expressed my feelings poorly, and I'm sorry for that. I'm not trying to defend bigotry by blacks against others, I'm just trying to understand it and deal with it in an effort to change things. I'm not saying I condone it, my feelings are the opposite, I just want to understand it because I really, really want things to change.
Where I live there is a long history of tension between white and black people, and nothing ever seems to change, and no one seems to really understand where anyone else is coming from, and things continue in a cycle of hate and anger and retribution. And that's an issue that I care about a lot, because it affects me, and I've been a witness to it since childhood.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
SWFL,
"If there was one thing this thread needed, it was a good laugh, and for everyone to relax. "
I wasn't just talking about the song, but yeah, that's part of it.
You just don't get it at all, do you?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
One final point and I'm going to try to stay out of this because it's getting painful for me: when two groups of people hate one another, blaming one another for their actions--rightly or wrongly--serves no good and helps to continue the cycle of hate and anger.
I think that the only way out of this is to try to understand where the other side is coming from, even if you can't quite succeed. No matter how terrible the actions of the other side, if you can't set your own feelings aside and try to understand them then you will never be able to open true communication and solve the problem. This goes way beyond race relations and is at the root of much of the violence, war, and hatred in the world, I think.
Just because anger is justified does not mean that it's a good idea to cling to it and act on it. Just because your position is right does not mean that your actions based on it are the right way to go. At some point both sides have to understand the past and then let it go, but understanding has to come first.
Maybe I'm wrong in the things I'm saying, I don't know, and I'd like to know if so. But my intentions are good, and I hope that everyone at least understands that much about how I feel.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ian, I've noticed that the only time people say that is when it's something *they* don't care about and other people do. "Righteous indignation" seems to be all on your side, there, by my observation...
Mark, I don't think our viewpoints of racism are all that different either. We both agree that it's bad. I just happen to see it as a global thing, not just specific to one small area or group of people.
A victory against racism for one group of people is a victory against all racism. To whine that one group is more oppressed than another is simply to amplify and send the racism off in another direction.
None of us are going to change how our generation is bigoted and racist. We just aren't. No matter how much we argue here, it won't change anyone's insides unless they want it to. What we CAN do is raise generation on generation of children who understand that we don't have to act on our racist feelings and thoughts, and we can make it clear that we expect others to do so.
Social pressure is demonstrably the ONLY thing that actually changes people. Even if it's through the magic dangling carrot of money, of success, of luxury. Those are all social pressures, but the most effective one is "what will the neighbors say? what will my new girlfriend think? will I be less successful if I do or say this racist thing?"
And it starts with the little things. Don't call people racist names, ANY people. The more you dehumanize people, the more it's okay to do bigger and worse things to them.
And don't tell people who feel dehumanized or that there's prejudice against them that they aren't being so if they'd only just compare it to *this* experience. It devalues what people have gone through...which is just what you don't want to do.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
and, oh yes, the rule of law. Laws and punishments for breaking them (for things like murder or harm) are good too. Carrots AND stick.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Lord, that was a long read! I think the point about the girl in the pub, RobertRyan is that she was drunk. When people are drunk they either talk total tosh which you just ignore unless you're very stupid or drunk yourself. Sometimes though before inebriation has completely set in, they score in on a little perceived weakness by making a hurtful comment that they mightn't when sober.
Reading between the lines, I might guess that you have some reservations/ sense of inferiority about your Irish ancestry and being Irish in the UK. So that's really for you to address - if you were perfectly at ease with your situation you wouldn't care one way or the other about such comments. That's sounds harsh but really it's at the heart of it.
As pointed out several times above, the Irish love to backstab and bring people down - there is also a long tradition of telling jokes against yourself, self deprecating humour - slagging etc. I don't think you're going to change that. Yes, you point out that's OK between 'mates' but isn't that what people who contribute regularly on this forum are in a sense?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Erm, no. And there's been plenty of examples of people who weren't drunk giving the exact same sort of reaction.
Honestly. Do you think that Robert and Just A Person and others on this thread are just making it up? Puhlease. That's one of the most condescending things I've ever read from you, Hussar, and that's saying a lot.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And btw, that's one of the most egregious examples I've ever seen of the old "discrimination only exists in the head of the victiims" speech.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ah Zina!, luckily I don't bother taking offense - I'm a very easy going chap and haven't a racist bone in my old body.
Well, truthfully I suppose I have some small reservations about the large number of economic migrants to Ireland in the last few years - except many are now leaving as employment goes down the swallowhole. But in saying that, I would share it in common with the vast majority of other Irish citizens but there's nothing personal in it. Just a sad note that many ways of Irish rural life have been swept away in an ever quickening current of change.
And there are many minorities even within Irish society - myself, I come from what be called a minority cultural tradition in Ireland and I'd be aware that my in laws might look on that in one way but I don't have any inferiority complex about it. You accept who you are, slag back as required and get on with it.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
No, Hussar, you might do. Not everyone is like you. And if I'm in a pub, I'm generally a bit drunk. I did ignore what she said, but it still offended me. I think the ambiguity of being born to Irish parents in England, being raised to be Irish in a 'foreign' country, might explain my offense and unease at being insulted in this way, as I've explained. Your tupenny psychology about inferiority complexes doesn't explain much. It's just hackneyed second-hand Freudian psychology. No offense.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hussar, you are worse than a racist, because not only are you willing to look past your own and other people racism, but you're willing to condone and further it. Perhaps you'd also like to argue that women ask for rape?
As for the other thing...hey, screwdrivers are widely available there, I'm given to understand.
Slagging is one thing. Backstabbing and trying to bring people down are another, and they're nothing to be proud of nor to try and keep going as a national trait.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"And don't tell people who feel dehumanized or that there's prejudice against them that they aren't being so if they'd only just compare it to *this* experience"
That's not really what I meant. Like you said, I'm coming at this from a local point of view, and I'm focused on relations between "white" and "black" people in the South because that's what I know and have seen. I'm not ignoring the problems elsewhere, I'm simply ignorant of them.
I can't speak to how things are elsewhere and for other groups, because I don't know, and I don't pretend to know.
There are small towns here with "don't let the sun set on you..." signs, the police are still very much feared (with good reason), the legal system is very much not color blind, the KKK has gatherings here, etc., etc. And I've seen my own friends and family members perpetrate and enable this sort of racism. No "white" person here endures such things. There is a lot of injustice here, and it's almost all going one way.
I realize that when I say that it's potentially offensive for a person who's considered "white" to complain about racism it can seem ridiculous to people who live elsewhere, but I'm really just speaking about where I live, which I realize is inappropriate on an international forum like this.
I also realize that it's ridiculous for me to be speaking for African-Americans when I'm "white," but I'm speaking about the reactions I've seen and the viewpoints I've heard from African-Americans themselves, though obviously they don't all agree on this and many see things differently, which is why I said *potentially* offensive.
Keep in mind that I live in an area with a history of slavery, segregation, etc. and the wounds are far from healed and the problems are far from solved. So please try to take my comments above in that context. For a "white" person to complain of racism here is different than the same in another part of the country, let alone another part of the world.
But I should have kept the international context of this forum in mind, so I failed miserably there. So really, my position was wrong, because I was imposing the standards of my local area onto the entire world, and it doesn't apply that way. But I really want you to know where I was coming from.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think you've explained yourself more than adequately, Marklar. Everybody makes judgements according to their own experiences: that's the reason so many people are unable to empathise with the abuse that's been described above - simply because they've never experienced it, and they lack the imagination required in the absence of experience.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well that's all part of what makes up Irish culture and unpleasant as it may be to you - that's the way it is.
Take traveller culture in Ireland - like most settled Irish people I have reservations about traveller culture - the hard drinking, the wife beating and fighting, these are things I might like to see changed. But then I also admire their resilience and the fact that they carried this music we play for many many generations - it is sometimes called Tinker's Music in Ireland. I admire their free way of life and ability to make do and live on less etc. So people would love to get rid of the violence in traveller, the wildness and turn them all into versions of ourselves .... but then they wouldn't be travellers anymore and their links to the music would likely also get stretched.
So you mightn't like some aspects of Irish culture but it's all part of the deal.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And I'm certainly not condoning violence, wife beating or thieving or justifying it in any way before you accuse me!!
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Actually, no, it's not part of the deal, Hussar. It's only part of the deal because you let it be. Burning down Chinatown, hanging blacks, putting a screwdriver into someone's head...hey, "that's just the way it is" -- no, I don't think so.
Mark, not to worry. I have my own prejudices that I get to fight just like everyone else does and I have to balance everything I have gotten from everyone else I know as well, so it's not like I can't empathize. The details are important, is all.
I admire your willingness to get out there and battle for what you think is right. That is truly a great thing to see in someone, and I'm inspired by that, and I'll continue to fight this sort of fight because of people like you, just as much for my black friends or whoever.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hussar, your argument is so woefully inadequate it's almost beyond intelligent criticism. Except that it should be obvious to you that culture isn't static, and that things change, sometimes, even, for the better...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Damn, didn't mean to sound that bitchy. But things do change for the better. Can you imagine the British Army shooting civilians in Derry today? No, of course not. But that change has come slowly, and it began with people refusing to be degraded just for being themselves. Small changes always precede big changes. That's why they're important. Would Barack Obama be president of the USA next year if Rosa Parks had given up her seat? Nobody knows, but there's no denying the relationship between her actions and the changes that followed. I'm not suggesting that this issue is even in the same league, of course it's not, but small changes shouldn't be dismissed nonetheless. If something improves the quality of life of even a small group of people, where's the harm?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And not even a mention of the satirical hoax band "Half A Shilling" from from Peter Kay's Phoenix nights performing their 'masked' racist song: "Send The Buggers Back"?
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=-uSGtRoEQYA
Someone also informed me that there was a name appearing on the recently controversial publicised racist BNP's (British National Party) member list, whose name was listed as a 'British folk traditional musician' or something to that effect. Wondered to myself if they were a lurker or indeed participent in this formus when I heard that...
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7736843.stm
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Murrough
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
My explanation is not inadequate - you just don't like the sound of it because it has the ring of truth! You people would have us all be the same - some sort of mid atlantic mish mash of culture. That's not where this music came from!
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Would you like to talk about "pure Irish blood" now, Hussar?
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just a Person: Oh enlighten us, mighty swami, so that we may bask in thy glorious wisdom! Get what exactly? I've read the thread. What is your beef specifically with me, or are you simply having a knee-jerk reaction to my insistence on free speech?
Zina, I was not addressing you, but Just a Person, who called me out prior to that posting. Sorry you took it personally! I was addressing the thread, I suppose. I'll be happy to be made the whipping boy for daring to try to lighten up a seriously hostile and vehement thread. Y'all can even burn this heretic at the stake if you like.
Really I'm a nice guy! I'm an Aries, I enjoy laughs, tunes, having a good time, long walks on the beach...
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I know too much about Aries, Ian. :p
As I said -- ill-timed, I'm afraid. I'm not taking it personally. I'm taking it on behalf of others, to whom this is actually quite a painful subject. If I was taking it personally, I wouldn't be posting on this thread at all, it'd be too close, and I'd be far too angry.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Too many to mention, but starting here, actually:
"Or, we can just all stop being so damn politically correct and get on with our lives, especially if the Irish use the term right out in front of God and everyone."
I'm sure you'll continue to exercise your right to free speech. You also have a right to say something sensible.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
'You people' vs. 'us'. Hmm.
Which particular 'us' would that be?
Ireland IS a mid-Atlantic mish-mash of culture. It sits in the Atlantic Ocean, contains elements of ancient Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Norman culture, as well as retaining a legal system, economic system, and language, all inherited from the English. Much of this music is derived from the historical interaction of people in the British Army, polkas come from Bohemia, reels from Scotland, double-jigs from England. Where does this music come from, if not a mish-mash of cultures? Your idea of a static, unchanging cultural vacuum is preposterous. I'm afraid that your ideas have fossilised, and I don't intend to act the paleontologist.
It's also clear from your schema of 'hard drinking, wife beating and fighting' travellers, as well as your objections to economic migration, that you have some very well-established prejudices, in addition to your misconceptions about the origins of this music. I am glad that I don't belong to the self-appointed collective that you define as 'us'.
On the whole this thread has been enlightening, not just for me, but for a number of people, and I thank everybody who made intelligent, moderate and reflective comments. It was a pleasant change from recent discusions in which intolerance and bigotry has been paramount. Obviously, it's been apparent in this thread too, but on the whole I think it has been outweighed by the reasoned and generally flexible opinions that have been posted.
All the best,
RR.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Murrough -- the comments on that youtube clip are...well, I don't quite know what they are. Unnerving, maybe.
I don't know much about the BNP -- but I get worried about any political party that calls itself the " foremost patriotic political party" in any country....oh wait, that would be all of them wouldn't it?!
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Well, truthfully I suppose I have some small reservations about the large number of economic migrants to Ireland in the last few years - except many are now leaving as employment goes down the swallowhole."
I find that extremely ironic coming from an Irishman, considering how Irish immigrants were treated in the US (and I assume elsewhere) in the past.
"And there are many minorities even within Irish society - myself, I come from what be called a minority cultural tradition in Ireland and I'd be aware that my in laws might look on that in one way but I don't have any inferiority complex about it. You accept who you are, slag back as required and get on with it."
That sound a lot like "know your place."
But since you've mentioned your age, I'll say that that probably needs to be taken into account considering how things may have been when you were growing up and the norms you were taught, though it's not an excuse really.
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ah come on! Why are people so easily insulted. If your not Irish, Your Not Irish. That's not an insult! I mean if the insult implied that you WERE something - that could be an insult. but somebody saying your not black/white/fat/ugly/Irish is just pointing out the obvious (if it's true)
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by lanefest rec.
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"(if it's true)"
What if it isn't? Who gets to decide, and how?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Define "Irish".
And if I told you that you were a great big faker about something *you* identify as part of your sense of self, are you going to think that's an insult? Have you even read the whole thread?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
You're not right.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
LOL, now is the part where people start commenting after only reading the first post because they don't want to read hundreds of posts. So we have to start all over again.
Almost 300 posts now, we could be going for a record...
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Being Irish is a performance.
THAT statement might help break a record. Otherwise, this thread isn't even close.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Example #1. Born in Ireland. Grew up in Ireland all his life. Father American, mother Irish.
Is he Irish?
Example #2. Born in Iceland. Both parents Irish, but immigrated to Iceland to follow work. They've always talked about "home" and going back. Parents never do go back, although they go back once a year for two months holiday on the family farm. Daughter goes back "home" to family village at age of 35 to help run family farm.
Is she Irish?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
the above was facetious. I apologize.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Here's a sincere question from someone far from the situation: Is a person who grew up in a gaeltacht with Irish as first language considered more Irish than those that didn't?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by fidkid
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Back at the top topic, my experience of the use of the term in Cork was:
1) it was used by native Irish, not by us blow-ins
2) it was used as a put-down
3) it was not used of emigrant Irish in general, whether visiting the "home country" or not
4) it was used for the minority of emigrant Irish (or descendants) who would come back and act as if they were trying to be more Irish than the natives. Particular offense would be given by those who would return, sit in the pub where music was still made in the community, and sing the sort of anti-British republican songs that glorify continued violence. As a strong supporter of the republican principle myself (not in the sense of the American party, of course) I can see why people would find it offensive, and would look forward to the PPs' return to their homes in Guildford.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Linsey Doyle
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Fidkid, it depends on who you ask. Yes, according to some. In the Fifties people from Gaeltacht areas sometimes referred to those who spoke English as a first language, particularly those on the eastern seaboard, as 'sassenachs'. Maybe they still do, I don't know. But according to the theories of 19th Century nationalism, they'd be right: linguistic grouping is the principal foundation of nationhood. Therefore the comments made about Irish insecurities are well-founded. The British argument against Irish independence was one predicated on the idea that the British and Irish were the same race of people with a common language and culture. The fact that Irish culture and society is so thoroughly coloured by the influence of the English is not a fact that sits well with many Irish people, and the inferiority complex that has been alluded to by several people in this thread probably stems from that fact. De Valera's obsession with creating an Irish-speaking state was fuelled by this insecurity (along, most probably, with the fact that he was, in fact, a plastic paddy), and despite the overwhelming objection to speaking Irish shared by most of the population, he tried to force it upon them in an attempt to make them truly, linguistically Irish. He failed. National identity is a tricky subject when you don't speak your own language, or if you do, to be speaking the language of another nation. Not that national insecurity about returning emigres is confined to Ireland, I've got Greek Cypriot friends who have experienced the same hostility.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just a person, you didn't read everything I posted, obviously. Speaking of which, my question that you didn't read was in regards to the point you told me I was missing.
...and according to Lingpupa, it seems like the term is one of those socially correcting ones, for bad behavior. Perhaps someone can dig through all this an put together all the first hand accounts, like that one, and make a nice intelligible study of the whole thing. Any sociology students out there in need of a project?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
A wonderful thread, a minor comedy classic, involving the resignation of a petulant and semi-literate list member, was deleted this week. Yeah, right, a farewell thread and we don't do 'em, fair dues and all that. But this loadabollix of a thread has got nothing to do with Irish music, it is sapping the energy of posters who would otherwise be posting to music threads, and it is doing nothing apart from massaging the egos of two posters, one boy and one big girl. May it soon be banished to the oblivion it deserves.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
So no Aries then, Zina? Ah well.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
WHOA! [rubs ears] Massage what now, Steve?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Wow, SWFL is being serious. You know the thread is getting heavy when he stops being silly
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hellooo? Message (massage?) not understood, old chap/ess!
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Now the term "Plastic Paddy" wouldn't annoy me in the slightest, it is an Irish put down for fakes.
The term "Paddy" can be racist. And there were lots of other interesting points.
And Marklar I was being sarcastic about Mexicans amazingly working for far right rich people, I was making the point you did in the next post.
But all this is mere trivia.
WOUNDED HUSSAR, HOW CAN AN IRISH PERSON MOAN ABOUT IMMIGRANT LABOUR?
Immigrant labour is a product of capitalism, to maintain the wealthy in any given country at any given time. For years it was not Lithuanians, Poles, Czechs or Mexicans moving to countries to work in, but the IRISH. Mainly in the UK and US of A. The Irish were the immigrant labourers, "undermining the culture of countries".
The only people who show an interest at our session are tourists and the Poles, Czechs and Lithuanians. And we are not that bad.
Many of these families TRY to integrate into Irish society, playing hurling and Gaelic football, dancing and eventually playing the music. However they are resisted by bigots, who claim they are "undermining the culture".
As for your comments about Travellers "Hard drinking, wife beating etc" did you write for the Daily Mail in England about 70years ago about the IRISH in England? Wouldn't have any wife beating on the Falls Road, Cork or Coolock I suppose? Or hard drinking?
Your remarks are offensive, and extremely sad given Ireland's history of exporting people all over the world.
I know many people share your views and "that is the way it is" but it needs changing. For a month now I have been on a protest outside a cafe in Belfast which sacked a pregnant Polish girl, rather than pay her maternity pay. That is the way it is, but it won't be for much longer because we will bankrupt the owner and perhaps others will learn from this. The last protest concerned a Lithuanian girl and we won that one.
Racism and intolerance from Irish people, who write thousands of songs about the struggle for "liberty" and condemn the British and others for oppressing them, is particularly abhorrent.
Well to me at any rate.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Anyone got a copy of 'War and Peace' or any other reeeaaally long boring book I could borrow?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I painted a window today and I'm watching it dry.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Need a hand?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
If it carries on like this I might have to paint the bloody door too.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
You should have got one of these fancy new plastic doors Steve.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Plastic...what did you say?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Good man, bodhran bliss. Trade union activism is a dying art. Maybe future generations will have to rediscover it all for themselves when they're all put on minimum wage, if minimum wage legislation lasts till 2010.
Bored with it here Steve? Put your money into Double Inverse ETF's - Exchange Traded Funds - if you can afford $100,000 you'll be laughing. Make money out of this recession while all the working class saps are starving (do you detect any irony here?)
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
If you don't like the thread, don't click on the link. Otherwise all you're doing is trying to show how clever you are, which sort of nixes making your goal. Which is something you've done for years now here, and seem to still feel the need to do, so I don't know why I'm bothering to state the obvious to you, but hey, hope DOES spring eternal.
The fact that whining about people on this board, who make you feel little through no fault of their own, doesn't make you look any bigger hasn't sunk it yet, has it, Steve?
You never win these things, Steve, you just always end up looking small. Remember how it went with the whole Glee Club thing? Just quit it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Nice one Bliss
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh Zina, I've never met him but I reckon Steve is not a bad bloke in real life.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I couldn't possibly comment.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hello Zina darlin'. I can see how much you've enjoyed your patronising, hectoring renaissance in this thread. You've vilified chaps who were patently not racist making reasonable points in a slightly heavier-footed way than was wise, considering you were around to pass haughty judgement. For the record, though as you're so self-absorbed you won't be interested, I've been a lifelong opponent of racism in the trade union movement and as a teacher in multiracial inner city areas for more years than you've had hot dinners. I'm quietly proud that I've never allowed a racist remark to go unchallenged in my classroom or playground, not once, not ever. One of my best friends was murdered at an anti-racist election rally in 1979, and 22,000 of us marched through London at his funeral. I've seen a Muslim family fire-bombed to death in a racist attack just down the road from my school. I am a white sort of half-English/Irish guy but I humbly think I've seen enough to know what racism is. The empty spouting about it on this here ~music~ forum is exceptionally unimpressive, to be honest. And I don't need your advice as to where to click, thank you. Basically, Zina, sod off.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh for the love of God. So what? What does any of that matter if you're still a jerk right NOW, right here? Where did you stand up for anyone here?
What do you know of me? What do you know about what I know and what I've done. Nothing. You're an ass, Steve, and you always manage to prove it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
As it happens I know a fair bit about you. No names, no pack drill and all that. Definition of a jerk, for all without a Zina history: a person who doesn't agree with Zina and/or doesn't shut up when she commands you to.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Sometimes it's just that you're a jerk.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Also, do please remember...all of your heartbreaking experiences still don't invalidate other people's experiences with dealing with discrimination. Deal with it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh SORRY. Was that supposed to be a sinister, I-Know-All-About-You-Where-Your-Kids-Go-To-School-husband-gets-his-hair-done smile? Sorry, I missed that.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Sanity rejuvenated! Though I do think mtodd has said one or two nice things...
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I think I may be a tin Cousin Jack (have I said that already? These big threads...)
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I don't know mtodd, Ray, so I couldn't say. Steve's sort of imbalanced where certain people are concerned though, we seem to set off his inferiority complex.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Hey....erm Ray, sorry, Feargal, maybe best if you stuck to particle physics, karate and whistle, yeah?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Bogman? To call someone a "bogman" is Ireland is not racist, it is merely an insult, insinuating that the person is a bit slow and thick. Now I know where the expression comes from.
And thanks for the info Steve, I was busy looking you up on the BNP list I downloaded.
In the past I have had the odd run in with Zina, but here she is right. How can anyone be flippant about racism? Not much use reading "War and Peace" if it is above your head.
Racism is all about intolerance. How does it relate to music? As someone who was threatened by armed terrorists who had declared war on "Pan-Nationalist" musicians I can see where all intolerance leads. Race and colour today, music and thought tomorrow.
We can never relax about racism, sectarianism, and all the other evils. "All it takes for evil to prosper....and all that".
Thankfully, to my surprise I admit, our session location, a working class pub full of wing nuts, has been most welcoming to the migrant labourers, which is to their eternal credit. Hopefully this will spread to the rest of Ireland.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Aye well
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Zina says:
"Murrough -- the comments on that youtube clip are...well, I don't quite know what they are. Unnerving, maybe.
I don't know much about the BNP -- but I get worried about any political party that calls itself the " foremost patriotic political party" in any country....oh wait, that would be all of them wouldn't it?!
# Posted on November 21st 2008 by Zina Lee
------------------
Hi Zina,
I haven't ventured in here too often of late, as you can probably see why, by the "quality" *coughs* of contributions made by a lot of people posting under various aliases etc.
Sorry, I honestly hadn't read the comments made on that youtube video clip I had posted. It's an extract from an English comedy show, of fictitious characters set around the real-life town of Bolton in the North of England, written by a guy called Peter Kay; he made 2 very good critically acclaimed series' of said show.
This extract was supposed to lighten the mood a bit in this thread, which I stumbled upon, and seemed to be getting very heated... I dunno, I probably thought that someone would have recognised the show and had a laugh at this attack on vices and follies, using ridicule... and maybe have calmed the whole frenzy of this thread down a bit.
I thought the irony of showing that ridiculous racist folk band, would have been appropriate, as the club owner booked them in the comedy series as they were supposed to "cater for the family. Nothing offensive, nothing blue", but to the club owner's horror, he discovers that they are highly racist and calls the club's security to heavily tackle them off the stage mid-song...
Racism is a terrible thing obviously, which should be thwarted whenever possible, I believe. I mentioned the publication of that BNP member list as it was made public just a few days ago (Monday I think) and there were policemen, teachers etc. names on it and already 2 people have lost their jobs (quite rightly so IMHO - is it fair to the public to have someone in the police who is a known racist?) and some Radio DJ, believing it to be relevant as it's a current affair:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5187551.ece
and:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5189610.ece
I honestly haven't ever heard the term "Plastic Paddy" used in Ireland before, and the first time I heard of it was when we were doing a tour of England and Scotland around the early 90's. We were playing a concert in a place called Aras na nGael, in Kilburn, in London and there was a poster up for (I think) a band called "The Plastic Paddies", which I didn't get, so a really nice man there called Brendan Mulkere explained to me the meaning of the term.
In the world of design, I've heard the term "Paddy-whackery" used a lot, in a derogitory way, to criticise design work, mostly for Irish music events, which depict ginger-bearded, buckle-hatted, usually wearing green, "leprechaun" type portrayals, and usually avoid this plague at all costs.
Growing up in and coming from the north of Ireland, I have been subjected to much worse terms than "Paddy", but even Paddy is not a very nice term to be called when you are a visitor who is over to play music in someone else's country, as I wouldn't call a visitor to my Country a term that is an unkind racial slur.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Murrough
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I actually quite enjoyed the clip itself, Murrough. It was also interesting that they obviously felt that the subject was a little too close to the bone to let it just stand on it's own -- wise to add the reporter, I think, just to make certain.
Nice touch that the club owner was a bit of a squeaky, self-satisfied sort, too. But the comments were...well, as I said, unnerving!
(Every time I think they're done, they start up the dancing or shouting again.)
I've been reading up about the BNP and the NF online. Wow. Thanks for the extra links...it'll kill the time while I'm waiting for the party upstairs to end...
I wouldn't have supposed you'd have any part of that other stuff, anyway. (Don't be too hard on the frenzy and such. Hard not to when it's important stuff.) Not to be too slavering about it, but hope of the nation and all that. Don't let it go to your head. ;)
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Zina says:
"I've been reading up about the BNP and the NF online. Wow. Thanks for the extra links..."
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
------------------
No problem, they're not exactly what I'd call a bunch of nice people. I don't think they'd take too kindly to "Paddy" music, to boot!
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Murrough
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Forget the Blacks and the Tinkers and the Poles and whoever else that's been mentioned in this thread, it's the Chinese we should be worried about. They have a finger in every pie!!! They've even got to infiltrate the Irish music scene! I would suggest that Zina be true to her culture by putting down her fiddle and taking up the Erhu instead, otherwise before you know it all of us on thesession.org will be wearing coolie hats and speaking in tones.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And you thought you guys had problems. Has anyone read the Guardian piece about the All Blacks giving up the haka ? Argument nullified by this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhyxfmoSxOA
Best haka available before the idiots altered this taking away the original and putting some stupid soudtrack under it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd0kDxP04eI
Another beauty here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB7a9pLVdxM
These guys make more hard, hard tackles in one half of the game that yer average NHL "superstar" makes all season.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
WOUNDED HUSSAR, HOW CAN AN IRISH PERSON MOAN ABOUT IMMIGRANT LABOUR? - Bodran Bliss.
Ah come on Bliss, I would have thought you might have known me a little better than that! I was simply acknowledging an uncomfortable feeling that is prevalent in Ireland over the past several years. Yes, I agree, that feeling is ironic given the history of emigration from here but the people who don't emigrate, those that stay behind always look at things a little differently. Just as those who survived the famines & emigrations of the 1840's, those who were more fortunate and those that trampled on others to survive - these people have a different perspective. It is possible to accept immigrant labour in this country and at the same time, regret the changes.
The point about the Travellers is that they are another sub culture within the greater Irish community, just as the Plastic Paddys as a sub culture. However most settled Irish feel a lot more hostile on average I would think to the Travellers and you will be familiar with terms like 'knackers' etc. Yes, there is a lot of hard drinking, etc etc. in parts of the settled community but it's a much greater feature in the Traveller's lifestyle - surely I don't need to give you chapter & verse. So, on the one hand - we might like to see those aspects change, to emasculate the Travellers and make them more like settled folks. But then we risk losing them as a distinct sub culture - they just become one of us. And then our minds stray to the fact that the likes of John Doherty, Johnny Doran, Raineys, Fureys etc. were/ are all part of the Traveller, Tinker community. They held this music we profess to play when it was neither profitable or popular. When this music was looked down on by the ordinary Irish public as Tinkers music, diddly etc. And we owe the Travellers a debt and a respect for that and for many other aspects of their lifestyle. But you can't just choose this bit or that bit of Traveller culture and throw away the rest, just like that. You need to consider it in the round.
That was my point to Robert Ryan and Zina Lee - you may not like the mild slagging and terminology of Paddy Whackery - but it's part of the Irish culture and understood by most as such. Just as there are unsavoury aspects of Traveller culture or English culture or Chinese culture.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Hi folks! Buster Bodhran here! I'm just waking up under the table here at the First Annual TheSession.org Racism Crusade! [brushes beer cans and bottles aside, staggers to feet] As you can see, the remains of SWFL FIddler and Steve Shaw are finally being removed from the gallows after a long night of dancing around their bodies. Marklar is still nowhere to be found, the Chief Inquisitioner keeps giving me a knowing look and a wink when I ask what happened to him.
"Well, looks like the morning torches and pitchforks are being passed out, time to get ready for today's action! But first, we pay some bills.
"Johnson's Pitchforks! When other folks' moderate political views and having your own questioned are simply unacceptable, try Johnson's Pitchforks! Available at all fine retailers!"
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
...and if that doesn't make you chuckle, well, I dunno. Go outside and smile at the sun or something.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Which brings it down to, of course -- whose fault is it if your sense of humor consistently falls flat? The person who consistently doesn't get a laugh from their comments or the people who sit there looking at them with puzzled looks before going on with what they were talking about?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Anyway, Murrough, I'll have to keep reading up. I've heard a lot of jokes and seen a lot of shaking of heads, and I don't really understand what it's all about. From what I've read so far, I'm not sure that I *will* understand it totally at the end of it all, but life's like that sometimes.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yeah, Dow, those Chinese -- I think we ought to try and overwhelm them with sheer numbers, do you think there's enough people to do that on the rest of the planet still, or have they tipped the balance on that?
Actually, forget the Chinese. I think it's the Americans you need to worry about, at least if it's me in particular you're trying to tweak, because I don't actually speak Chinese (well, I can say Happy New Year, 1-10, and tell you you're a bad boy).
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh, give SWFL Fid a break. His earlier bit was a tad ill-timed and inappropriate, but his intentions weren't bad and I enjoy his clowning for the most part.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Peace?
Happy thoughts
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"Oh, give SWFL Fid a break."
Arm, or leg? Hahahaha!
Oh, that's not funny? but, wait, I think it is! You're trying to keep me from having freedom of speech and expression! Fascists! Fascists!
What, you mean it's only funny when you do it, not when someone else does? Like..."Plastic Paddy"?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Huh? Were you joking in your response to SWFL? If so, it went over my head.
When have I ever called anyone a "plastic paddy?" Or were you just joking there?
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh, and I thought the arm or leg thing was funny, but I don't get the rest of your post. If anything, I'd love to see you crack more jokes, things have gotten too serious.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Okay, so that wasn't very serious, sorry.
Racism isn't acceptable. Anywhere. Anytime. Regardless of degree. It can be contextual, yes, but we all know that when we see it.
There are people on this board, who live in places where words are the first step on a very short, insane road to someone getting beaten up or killed, who know all of this far better than I do. And these are people who know far better on a live-with-it basis than me how serious this subject is, how close it really is, how blood can be spilled. I wouldn't presume to tell people like Bodhran Bliss or Murrough or anyone who lives where they do how to run their country or solve their problems, which are incredibly complicated and have no easy solutions.
But I will say and do whatever I can, as long as I have to, to stop racism and bigotry, the plain human things we have to change.
If they could speak to you, do you think that the people Steve Shaw mentioned who have died because of racist people would want us to stop talking about it? That we not talk about it because this is a "music board"? That we should stop trying? That we shouldn't take action? C'mon.
I'm out of here now. From here on out, it's basically all been said, and Bodhran Bliss pretty much laid it out there as far as I'm concerned. It's been very instructive, and I really salute Robert for the thread, and for the fact that he's been on message and steadfast throughout.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Zina Lee
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well, OK, I agree with all you've said above 100%. I don't think that anyone is trying to stop you from speaking your mind about this, though. At least, I'm not.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Yea Zina, Bodhran Bliss pretty much laid it out there as far as I'm concerned as well with.....
"Bogman? To call someone a "bogman" is Ireland is not racist, it is merely an insult, insinuating that the person is a bit slow and thick. Now I know where the expression comes from."
- nice
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Incidentally BB, the more appropriate way to insult someone where I'm from is to call them a teuchter.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Humour, race relations, free speech, love & hate, PTSD, reconciliation, solving the worlds' ills . . .
Down with racism up with free speech.
I am unable to rational the ironies of Irish culture. I remember the 1st time I read the term plastic paddy. The reference was an attempt to slag on someone's playing ability, or lack thereof. Which is the ironic bit. Members will slag & say, " that is a part of the culture. It is humourous " . Then on a separate thread despair about the rise in slagging. In my mind I do not expect to resolve this paradox.
I am here for the tunes. Having said that, I do know the forum is a community effort. Just because SWFL Fiddler has never been that funny does not mean he is not giving it his best effort. He & Bodhran Bliss & ceolachan & airport try to be tension relievers. In my opinion we need some of that.
Keep the conversation going. To me it always comes down to being able to turn to someone I may not like & finding the good in them ~ recognizing the humanity in anyone & everyone.
End of rant.
I need more tunes.
Tomorrow we are having a harvest ritual.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I throw myself on the mercy of the court! I have sinned! I have called a pub a plastic paddy pub! Not a soul among you would have blamed me. It was a reconverted dive bar in a shopping center with a tile ceiling and florescent lighting. It lasted six months before the former clientele drove it out of business by fighting non-stop inside the joint. It was truly horrible.
[smiles, bats eyelashes, grins widely]
I will admit to venting some testiness via the humor, and yes, it's your fault if you don't like it. It's my fault if I don't laugh at jokes other people make about me.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Incidentally BB, the more appropriate way to insult someone where I'm from is to call them a teuchter.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Long time since I was a teacher.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Incidentally BB, the more appropriate way to insult someone where I'm from is to call them a teuchter.
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bogman
Teuchter, like most such cultural epithets, it is often offensive, but is sometimes seen as amusing by the speaker. The term is often taken to mean "ignorant northerner".
Think about that definition, Bogman, especially the bit "seen as amusing by the speaker".
# Posted on November 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Bodhran Bliss, I find it extremely offensive that you think it's funny to say you looked for me on a BNP list. To be honest, it doesn't fall too far short of being actionable. I've done a bloody sight more to fight racism in my life than most of the self-righteous bleaters on this thread and I demand that you retract that slur, here on the list where you made it, and not in private. I mean it, mate. You can be bloody funny sometimes but you've missed the mark pretty badly this time.
Steve (hoping that the block on his posting has been lifted...)
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And thanks for the info Steve, I was busy looking you up on the BNP list I downloaded.
That's what I posted Steve. In short, I was glad you had posted a resume of your efforts in the field because you had me worried by being so glib and flippant about this subject. Obviously I wasn't really looking you up on the list, that comment was to illustrate how far things had gone, and the impression that your flippancy on the subject of racism creates.
It was not meant to be funny, it was meant to shock, as I was shocked by your attitude. I apologise if it offended you, it was meant to "sober you up".
Doubtless you have a fine record in combating racism. However unless you personally know all the people posting here, you cannot simply label them as "self righteous bleater's". Even if the posters were said bleater's, you should not compound the error by adopting a flippant attitude, in my opinion.
I think you and Zina may have "history" and you allowed that history to cloud your better judgement. By winding up Zina, you were beginning to sound like a racist. Having corresponded with you in the past by e-mail I found that hard to believe. Hence my "shocking" reference to the BNP list. I know you are not the BNP type.
All of this may not sound like much of an apology Steve, but I do apologise if you actually believed that I thought you may be a BNP type, and this offended you. Perhaps it was "flippant" which again illustrates how flippant remarks on a serious subject can be interpreted.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just go back to the Zina phase of this thread and take off your blinkers and work out exactly who insulted whom and how many times. I was not being flippant about racism but I was being flippant about the self-absorbed, surreal and semi-hysterical posturing of some participants about a relatively trivial insult that has been incorrectly labelled as racism. I'll tell you what, mate. There are some real battles against racism to be fought out there, and anyone who thinks that they're contributing to that fight by contributing to a 360-post thread about plastic bloody paddies needs their heads examining, and what's more, they need to lighten up.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Here here!!! I Agree 100% with Steve Shaw.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by shanty
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Cheers, mate. If ever a discussion thread completely lost all sense of proportion, this is that thread. As a matter of fact, plastic Paddy is not racist at all. It's sexist! Only applies to men! What about all those plastic Patricias! Plastic colleens for Chrissake! There, flippant enough for you, bodhran pompous bliss?
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just go back to the Zina phase of this thread and take off your blinkers and work out exactly who insulted whom and how many times. I was not being flippant about racism but I was being flippant about the self-absorbed, surreal and semi-hysterical posturing of some participants about a relatively trivial insult that has been incorrectly labelled as racism.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
That's what I said, you let your thoughts about Zina cloud your judgement.
I agree that the term Plastic Paddies may not be the worst term in the world, but the discussion had moved far beyond that.
However when you know you are addressing someone from Ireland the term "a 360-post thread about plastic bloody paddies needs their heads examining," could indeed be interpreted as racism.
As for the comment "you clearly have such a big ego that you find it difficult to back down, even from such an obnoxious position." I would have to ask if you were looking in a mirror when the comment came to you.
I do not think racism can be defined into "real" battles. All opposition to racism is a battle, not to be laughed at.
As I said, I was surprised by your attitude, but your dislike of Zina appears to have made you temporarily blind to reality.
This thread was real enough to attract 360 posts.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Darn, i just ran out of popcorn!
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I'd like to apologise (to SWFL Fiddler in particular) for my intemperate remarks earlier in this discussion. I was out of order.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
"intemperate" remarks. Does that mean you were p*ssed?
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
You know - langered, legless, hammered...those sorts of things.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
No. Do you post when you're p*ssed?
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Good God Almighty in Heaven.
360 posts about abso-feckin-lutely nothin. And apparently, I'm a double plastic Paddy, as I'm at least second gen Mick-Yank (gran came over after the war, and gramps fam came over before the titanic as they needed to *eat*) and my name *is* Pádraig - Paddy to my friends.
Whatever.
Go ahead, call me a mick, a paddy, hells, even a plastic one. have the courtesy to do it to my face, i'll say feck you and we can clink our glasses and get on with the craic. It doesn't bother my internal constitution. of course this may all be the product of testosterone poisoning as i'm still quite young.
Now, is it racism if the intended recipient doesn't care / mind and the giver doesn't intend it as such, or doesn't know?
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Pádraig
Good cheer
good thing they came over before the titanic rather than on the titanic.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Surely the most offensive thing you can call someone these days isn't plastic paddy or whatever, but "racist"?
It's more likely to have negative effects on your life than being called paddy or jock or teuchter, however much that irritates you. Sorry, "offends you".
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
^No kidding.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Pádraig
Ambiguous semantics
Names alone are meaningless.
When they are used in a way which removes our dignity that is where the erosion begins.
The last time I felt my dignity being removed was laying in the intensive care unit in a hospital gown. Of course with the morphine you could have called me whatever you liked.
I got through that one.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02rlGHsqLOQ
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by polkageist
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
RACISM IS NEVER OK, or slight variants thereon, has appeared, like, sixty times on this thread. as if anyone here disputed the proposition. like the thread title ("is racism acceptable...."), it pulls the rhetorical trick known in the litigation biz as, "assuming facts not in evidence." the classic illustrative example thereof being, "so....when did you stop beating your wife?" the one being pulled here is, hey, let's not debate the usage of the word "paddy" or "plastic paddy," let's just say, you're a racist if you use it. that's textbook example A of assuming facts not in evidence.
reality is a little more complicated. you can have an opinion on this one, but it is not an open-and-shut matter. it is legitimately debatable as a matter of semantic usage as well as history. the simple fact is that the use of "paddy" to denote an irish person, though it has indeed been used disparagingly by non-irish bigots, did not originate with non-irish bigots in the manner of "the n-word" or in the manner of the "c-word" as used by non-female bigots to demean females.
irish people have used and do use "paddy" to refer to themselves, sometimes with irony or sorrow, but often with humor, elan and raffish pride, and they are not ironically subverting an epithet in the manner of "queer." they use the term to describe themselves on occasion. anybody who goes to a singing session, or who sits and listens in the pub when the singers start up after the musicians die down, will hear example after example of this phenom, and i suspect that many of the shrillest voices on this thread know this perfectly well, but don't want to let a little thing like facts get in the way of the thrill of luxuriating in the bubblebath of self-righteousness.
it is also a fact that use of the term "plastic paddy" by anybody but an irish person, may be taking place out there on the earth somewhere, but this would be the exception rather than the rule. the usual use of this phrase by irish people in the manner of one black person calling another black person an "oreo cookie" (black on the outside...white on the inside). now, that may be an insult, and it may or may not be unfair in a given case, but it is not racist.
at my mother's funeral, people were surprised to learn that her given name was Alice. this is because from the age of four to her (prematurely young) death at seventy-three, she went by the name of Pat, including on her business cards. my mother grew up in new jersey in one of those neighborhoods where poor, non-anglo-saxon european immigrants lived side by side and also beat the living heck out of each other on occasion in true "gangs of new york manner," and one day at around age four, she was at the grocer or the butcher's with her own mother, when the shop proprietor, a P***y, wouldn't you know!, looked down at this redheaded child and announced, ah sure, look at the freckles and the nose on her, she's as irish as PADDY'S pig. and it was Pat forever after.
so spare me.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Have a biscuit.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Oh by the way, the rhetorical trick you mention? SUCKERS!
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Well at least it got attention ey ..... :S
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by She moved through the fair
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ooh ooh! Can I have a biscuit too?
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Pádraig
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Ha ha, Peter fights the chicken again! Nice link, silver bow!
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by PatrickJWK
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Robert, I am confused. You start a very serious thread about racism and the use of the term 'plastic paddy," but then change your user name to 'Plastic Fantastic?" It seems to go against the statements you made throughout the thread about being sensitive to others, avoiding terms that might be inflamatory, etc. Just curious......
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Is there any term more inflammatory than "racism"?
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Perhaps its like one of those things you know ...''its not ok for someone to call it if they arent considered it, those who are considered it ... well that a whole other ball game!'' ???
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by She moved through the fair
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just got bored of the 'self-righteous bleaters' insults, and the 'because it doesn't offend me nobody else has the right to be offended' mentality that, to me, is quite self-righteous. The thread was interesting, informative, people were stimulated by it, and self-evidently interested in it, yet people have to come along and stick their oar in at the end of the thread, complaining that it's too long, too self-righteous, too this, too that, rather than making intelligent statements, or even reading the bloody thing in the first place. All the vociferously argued points made at the end of the thread had been made several times by other people, in more intelligent ways. I just got bored. And I got a good slagging at the session on Saturday, and earned a new nickname... Good times.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Everyone has the right to be offended. But you don't have the right to silence everyone that offends you. Simple.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I agree, it's more about, erm, discussion, than demands for silence. Even more simple.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Dragut Reis
*
It's your baby
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I feel like Frankenstein...
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Just wondered - is there a 'racism' equivalent or corollary to Godwin's Law?
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by domnull
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Not sure. Amazing it didn't happen on this one - came pretty close a couple of times.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Thanks for explaining the new user name. You need to get some friends to help push this discussion over 400 posts, a distinction rarely achieved on the yellow board!
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Now 389 posts ..
... oops, sorry 390.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Had I not been suspended we'd have been well over by now.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Gee, Steve, I just thought you had bowed to the wisdom of the counterarguments being posed, and had nothing more to say!
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I heard a few insults but I don't remember too many counterarguments.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Wait, do people really think that "nigga" and "nigger" are two different words? Well I don't know what part of the country that is, but I've lived in Chicago and New York, and I'll say with certainty that "both" words are used about equally by black Americans. It's pretty obvious that they are just different pronounciations of the same term. Do you really think that if a handful of black kids were talking together, calling each other niggas and one of them slipped in an "r" at the end they would all gasp at his unbelievable racism? Come on.
The truth is, no word is absolutely racist; context is everything. Now I'm not going to pull the "I have a friend who is. ---" card, I'm just trying to make a point: I have Mexican friends who call each other "spicks"; I have Polish friends who call each other "polocks", I even have several Arab-American friends who jokingly refer to each other as terrorists. Is this racism? No. Racial language all depends on context. Just like an Irish uncle calling his Americanized nephew a plastic paddy (when my uncle does this, I laugh and tell him to go f--- himself...hmm, there's another word that's offensiveness is contextual) is different than an Irishman calling an American immigrant a "disgusting bloody plastic paddy". Context is everything.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Johnny Chicago
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Please don't let realism intrude on this discussion Johnny.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Bren
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Sorry, I would hate for the gun of reason to shoot down the balloon of hot air!
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Johnny Chicago
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Context is indeed everything, but I'd contend that there are very few contexts in which "nigger" or "Paki," for example, are OK. The fact that African-Americans or Pakistanis use the words themselves is often pounced on by racists to justify their own use of the words. Words like these that have accumulated such negative baggage (unlike "plastic paddy") should be discouraged by everyone, including black or Pakistani parents when they hear their own children using it. In fact, I know that this is indeed what commonly happens. I certainly didn't shrink from it myself when I was a teacher in inner London. Unfortunately, there were some teachers who latched on to the above false justification, but the vast majority of teachers I knew would pounce on the use of such words whatever their source, and quite right too. Arguing that use of these woprds is OK as long as you've calculated the context would be severely misguided. Those hearing you saying them would almost certainly not have carried out similar calculations.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Thesession.org?
Good advice Steve.
Choosing words respectfully.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It is no exaggeration to say that I found myself on the front line against racism in inner London schools for 13 years. I learned how to be fairly courageous in taking a confident and consistent stand against it and how never to let racist comments pass. I found the criticisms of certain posters to this thread to be extremely hurtful, not to speak of totally unjustified, and in attempting to say so (one post never appeared) I got myself banned. Oh well. There is a big difference between a ton of theoretical, high-minded fluff and a dose of good, hard experience. But who am I.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
And I'm buggered if I'm letting anyone else grab 400.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Steve, you're obviously a man who enjoys a dose of good, hard, experience.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Endure is perhaps the word you seek. From all you say it seems you aspire to endure all the wrong things, and not those things actually worth enduring.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
We will be showing our "scars on Crispian's day" at this rate.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Cobblers.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Just a person
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
I am in no way trying to justify the use of racist language, I'm only saying that words are just words, and the intent behind them is the important thing. What one man might see as prolonging use of a negative word, another man may see as reclaiming the words used to repress them (look at words like "queer" for example). And what one man might find offensive, another may not. For example, the word "paki" is often not considered offensive to many Pakistanis in the states and neither is the word "paddy" considered offensive towards the Irish; conversely, the word "pilgrim" is considered extremely offensive towards Ukranians. I'm not arguing that any words are "ok" or "not ok", I'm just saying that the meaning of the words do change in different situations.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Johnny Chicago
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
OK, but I'm sticking with what I said. It's best to avoid "nigger" and "Paki" in all the circumstances that I can personally think of. "What one man finds offensive, another may not" is a bloody good reason for not using them.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
It is a good reason, and its the same reason I don't use words like that either. But at the same time, while it may be best for you and me to avoid those words, it may be different for other people, and unless they're being obviously racist, I'm not going to judge or confront someone else if they have a different inerpretation of a word than I do and use it amongst each other.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Johnny Chicago
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
But not everyone has the broad-minded tolerance of you and me.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Erase racism everywhere.
# Posted on December 2nd 2008 by Leendah
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
so what about the plastic musicians?
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by premier
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
What are you trying to achieve here Premierflute? We've had your thread about "who can play a tune?", you never succeeded in explaining what the purpose of that was, and now you're resurrecting a long dead thread with a strange question about plastic musicians.
Maybe you do have a sensible question in mind, but you aren't succeeding in expressing it, instead you are generating an atmosphere of free-floating ill feeling, which I don't believe is your intention at all.
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by Bernie 29
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
This paticular thread just reminded me of the The "who can play a tune?"
If you read the thread instead of guessing my intentions you find ehm my intention which I made clear......
To be honest I've no control over you ..... guessing my intentions but I'd rather you didn't unless of course my comments are a little too vague
# Posted on June 18th 2010 by premier
Re: Is racism acceptable on Thesession.org?
Steve Shaw seems to have hit it on the head.
"PP" sounds like it's more a cultural ascription rather than a genetic one (ie, not racist, even if offense is meant). Never heard the term PP, nor am I offended by it as an Irish American. I remember vividly seeing my oldest friend's face as a kid when another kid called him a nigger. I never saw someone look so angry. The other kid was an immigrant from Guatemala, just learning English, probably didn't know exactly how offensive he was being. But my friend was beyond p*ssed and that image of his face is forever etched in my memory as the look of the righteously offended.
When my grandfather came here in the 1920s, to have an Irish accent was to be considered stupid. That's not the case anymore. Irish actors, writers, and musicians are quite popular here. Kennedy was elected 50 years ago. Americans are far more prone to be "PP"s rather than to be anti-Irish. Maybe it's my West Coast experience and it's different on the East Coast. I don't know.
Some people experience real bigotry in this country: on occasion they get beaten and murdered for being gay, dragged behind a truck until their limbs fall off for being black, detained in airports for having Arab-sounding names (I had a Sephardic Jewish professor whom this happened to), arrested for "looking like" an illegal immigrant. Overusing words like racism diminishes their meaning and diminishes the very real suffering of people who experience it.
# Posted on September 21st 2010 by Resodan