I cant bloody learn it. Thank god for ABc. Im sure im not the only one who wish this would go die. Just out of interest, anyone got any thoughts on Tanglewood guitars ?
Sorry you can't learn it. Too bad you weren't in my class. Every 6th grader in my school learns to read music- and they also learn by listening. Notation is a tool, like ABC, which I have trouble reading since it's so counterintuitive. I played a Tanglewood guitar and it was okay; it played well.
What's wrong with sheet music??? If You can't learn it, I'm sorry for You. I think it's a second dimension to learn tunes. Sometimes tunes are played so f***ing fast, that You can't get all the notes, and sometimes you fall over a good tune You never have heard played. Off course sheetmusic is not good in sessions (sheet music in very beginner sessions are OK), neither if You play on stage. I learned it myself when I was 7 Years old (many Years ago) and I'm very pleased to be able to do it.
I feel for you Luke, I really do, you're missing out. I'm glad to have a good ear because that's important, but glad I can read sheetmusic as well, best of both worlds.
When I was about seven I learned to play by ear. I didn't start learning to read sheet music until I was much older, and primarily because the people I was playing with at the time could. I was a little intimidated by their ability. It was a struggle for me to learn it, and it took several years, but it has been worth it.
These days, because there aren't many trad musicians in this area (eastern Michigan, western Ontario), my primary way of learning new tunes is to hear something on the radio, then find the sheets on the internet. Having only heard something once is not enough for me to be able to play from memory, but having the dots provokes the memory enough that I can absorb it in a few days.
What's difficult? look at the bottom line. Just below that is D. Do you know the alphabet? Then you can read music. If you know where D is on your instrument (guitar?) then you can play off the music. You might need to practise a bit mind
The only problem with sheet music is this: When you are reading sheet music, you are not listening to the tune. All your concentration is on the reading.
I have no issue with sheet music other than it does take away from listening.
Agree with gam on the ease of learning how to read (it's definitely not rocket science) although as he says, one does need to practice to develop fluency. The problem Celtic Guitar raises only exists in those early stages when coming to grips with reading as once the art is developed, you do actually listen to what's being played.
As for learning from ABCs, I would not recommend this as the letters give you no idea of timing and phrasing for the tune.
Celtic makes a good point about how reading the music distracts from listening, but to become proficient at reading sheet music you have to learn to associate a tone with what you see on the page. In other words, you should be able to read the notes and hear them in your heard without touching an instrument. Hearing it should eventually become secondary. What happens with the instrument then becomes just the expression of what's in your head. The tone becomes associated with a position on the instrument, not the other way around. I think most multi-instrumentalists will tell you that they know a tune as a set of tones which doesn't require re-learning with each instrument.The only thing that is relearnt is how the tone is expressed.
Lukeoprey - something that may help tremendously is to start with a tune you already know well. Something you can play from memory. As you play it, follow along with the sheet music. That way you will learn to associate a dot with the tone you already hear in your head. A little practice and it will become easy. By the way, you don't even have to play the instrument to make that work.
It's an amazing coincidence but I've just stumbled on a new post at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19747 which I think proves my point about ABCs. Full marks are due to Reverend for decoding it, but I definitely wouldn't have had a clue and I doubt if I'm in the minority on this.
I've always taken it as a given that people remember tunes tonally rather than as a string of letters or whatever - although I did once meet a young beginner fiddler who said she lost the tune because of a distraction causing her to forget the letters! As Ravenwood says practising with reading leads eventually to a situation where you can hear the melody in your head just looking at the notes without the need for an instrument. This is a great assett when browsing through music books to find some nice new tunes or even to learn tunes when travelling on a bus or train - you may get some funny looks from fellow passengers as you lilt or whistle quietly but it's definitely a better option than taking out your fiddle.
What is it with Irish Trad Musicians and sheet music???
Is there any other musical genre where such begrudgery against sheet music exists. I play, on and off, with musicians, good musicians in their own right, who only came to ITM through sheet music and as such they have very little retention. I am blessed with good retention, but that only comes from years of playing in sessions etc. and with no music for the tunes available. Nowadays nearly every tune is written down which is a wonderful thing and gives non traditional musicians a chance to join in and enjoy the music. Who are we to deny them that privilege.??. I worry more about so called top players who go on radio/TV/ concerts etc and don't bother their arse to find out the name of the tunes that they are playing --(I know it is not always possible to find the correct name for a tune, but this is the kind of thing I getting at)eg:
"I'm going to play a jig I learnt from a Mrs Reilly from Drumslapagutter, and I'll follow that with another one that I have no name for" He then goes on to play something well known such as the 'Out in the Ocean' followed by 'The Frost is all over'. Surely to God he could have tried to find out what the tunes were called before the performance......Now that really gets up my nose.......(Screams with frustration)
I have to agree totally with Free Reed on this that names are fairly readily available for the vast majority of tunes. I'm never sure whether it's a case of laziness when these musicians, who should know better, can't remember a tune name or whether it's a case of arrogance that they'd never find a tune such as the Blackthorn Stick in the Irish Fiddler like us mere mortals, but instead got it from an obscure source such as Mrs Gillhooley in Ballymothóin!
It is sheet music in the session that is the no-no.
The ability to be able to read it is the bit that matters, as it ensures you can count in the required time signature. And if you have also studied harmony, even a melody-line player benefits.
He could say, "Some of you may know this one as Mick Mulcahy's, O'Connel's Jig On Top Of Mount Everest, O'er The Sea, Out In The Ocean, Portroe, Split The Whisker, Tierney's, or The Wind Is Over The Ocean."
or
"I'm going to play a jig I learnt from a Mrs Reilly from Drumslapagutter. Followed by 'The Loughrea'."
Random-notes - Not too sure about the 'Split the Whisker' name. Sexual overtones and all that. Perhaps in that particular case one would be better referring to 'Mrs Reilly's etc.......!!!!!!!
The great thing about sheet music is that is gives a visual representation of the ups and downs of the tune - which ABC cannot do.
And isn't "The Wind Is Over The Ocean" the full name of "Over The Ocean"? It makes more sense.
As someone who has picked up music-reading slowly over the years, I can't stand the horror that is ABC. We have one fine system that works, why invent another ? Except it's hard to input to a computer.
There's a lot to be said for learning by ear too.
Personally, I don't think not knowing the name of your tunes is the greatest sin in the world - possibly the third or fourth, after not tuning, playing too fast, and noodling.
Wasn't it Martin Hayes who said that if you know the names of all the tunes you know, then you've don't know enough tunes?
That may be an apocryphal quote, but what is more to the point is that there are some of us who can quite genuinely play the age card when it comes to not remembering names of tunes.
At the 2008 Catskill Irish Arts Week, James Keane gave a lecture with Mick Moloney. One of the main points was that Irish Traditional music has been through some good times and bad, and that learning something about each and every tune you come upon will give you a better background of the tune itself and of the broader tradition. I'm at the point where new tunes are coming at me constantly, so finding the names sometimes takes me as long as learning the tune.
The tunes are my friends. I like knowing their names--it's the least I can do. And I try to learn something about their backstory. Specifically, I try to learn the chain of players who gave me the tune. If I learned it from Clay, and he got it from Aly, and he got it from Tom, that means more than just glomming onto tunes from cds.
I realize that not everyone approaches the music this way, but I like the richer context, the cultural and personal depth, such information brings to the music. The music is exchanged among *people,* and I enjoy getting to know those people.
As for the dots and abc, I use both, and tablature too. I can read at speed in any of those systems, mostly because they all translate directly to ear (aka sight hearing). Not much different than being able to read in different languages....
For me the worst thing about sheet music is not the sheet music itself, it's when really bad transcriptions are notated here, especially with contemporary tunes. It really bugs me when a tune is put up and despite knowing the writer the transcriber doesn't make as sure as possible that it's a good representation of the tune. It seems to happen a lot when people put up Scottish pipe tunes. There have been dozens of absolutely stinking versions of otherwise cracking tunes. The result being that anyone who hasn't listened to a tune enough before learning it learns the crap watered down version they find here damaging the tune like a nasty decease.
At the end of the day whether you learn all tunes by ear, by sheet music or both, not bothering to listen properly is what really does the music a disservice.
Of course you couldn't be expected to know the names of every reel, jig or hornpipe. You would have to be a genius to remember them all. My beef is musicians who don't know the names of the 'old chestnuts' For instance 'Egan's Polka' is still named in many tutors as 'A Kerry Polka'. I was at a concert a few years ago where accordion player Josephine Marsh was playing. She went on at some length to tell us that she learnt the next tune from her father when she was young girl and because of that she called it after him. Paddy's Polka or something similar. She then went on to play what I've known all my life as 'The Ennis Reel' probably because it was played mostly for the 'Siege of Ennis' I felt like shouting out "That's not Paddy's Polka' that's the Ennis Reel. For those of you who know the ABC format this is how the Ennis Reel goes:-
Da - Da Da - Da Da Da Da -De Da Da Da - Da Da Da Da Da etc and the timing is Up and Down and Up and Down and Up and Down etc.
here here (or is it hear hear?) bogman ... poor transcriptions are taking over just like a nasty disease. I've been a few places where the 'settings' often seem to come from here, and if they're wrong or merely watered down, no matter because they are becoming dominant and not simply emergent!
It's a new phenomenon really isn't it? Years ago it was so hard to come by tunes (outside Ireland & a few other places), I mean you had to literally buttonhole people to teach you them, and even though then there was no guarantee it was 'the best setting', I think there was still some sort of quality control going on. Now it's all so easy, millions of tunes everywhere, no need to hunt down someone who plays the tune you want anymore - it's all for the good, but there are some interesting side-effects. Some of them are maybe less desirable than others.
Who knows where it's all going to lead? One thing's for sure things have changed enormously over the last ten or so years.
Free Reed,
even worse than calling Egan's polka ''A Kerry Polka'', I've often seen it called ''THE Kerry polka'', implying that it's the only polka from Kerry!!! Talk about ignorance.
"you had to literally buttonhole people to teach you them"
But nowadays they'll say "I'll send you the dots" or "look it up on thesession", so you're back where you started.
Can't see it doing any harm if it jogs your memory. There wouldn't be many people to play with if we all had to learn tunes one-on-one. Simple mathematics. Or is it arithmetic?
I physically can't read sheet music because it goes all loopy when I read it. The lines do a kind of heat haze and the notes jump about. Not ideal. Ah well, I seem to get on well enough learning by ear.
I tend to record tunes I hear in sessions and would like to learn on my phone so that I can listen to them back and learn them - and ask the name of it after they've finished playing it (generally I get a name - if not I just play to people til I do!).
I like to know the names to the tunes I know as hearing the name makes the tune play in my head. Which is a problem in everyday conversation sometimes!
Just imagine how few stories you'd pass on if you were only allowed to tell people them, instead of lending them the book ("oh no - it's not the done thing to read the letters"). Same with music - I like being able to pass on the dots to somebody if I can't play it to them enough times for them to get it.
And yes, I can read music very well and hear it in my head when I read it. I also read books and hear the dialogue and inflections in my head.
Bredna, I have nothing against tools that are sharp and maintained for their purpose. The difficulty with dots is mostly that it is extremely difficult to write and therefore constricts the mind and inhibits the freedom of expression that makes the music so brilliant. Music must keep its' humanity.
Today I finished reading 'The Grapes of Wrath' by John Steinbeck. for the third time. Each time round I've discovered something new about he characters and the wider meaning of the story. John Steinbeck died a year before I was born, so he was never around to share his stories with me in person. Thank goodness he wrote them down. His books have had a profound effect on my life. I feel like I know the characters personally, and I'm there in the story on every page. I'm so glad I know how to read.
Talking of humanity, I'm glad that Mr Mozart took the trouble to write things down too...
Sheet music is as good a tool as the users want it to be and the Classical composers are proof of this. Just because some trad tunes are badly written is not a reflection on the notation but rather the incompetence of the writer. This can equally apply to the played or recorded versions of tunes which sometimes can also be quite innaccurate.
The Grapes of Wrath is a masterpiece, no doubt about that. But what would happen if "I" wrote up what I thought it that novel was here? I've got nothing against sheet music or abc, it's all useful. There are pros and cons with all this easily accessible information is all.
"Just imagine how few stories you'd pass on if you were only allowed to tell people them, instead of lending them the book"
That's an interesting analogy, but in the grand scheme of things, diddley tunes are not really stories are they. More like anecdotes, or even jokes. Witty one liners, shaggy dog stories etc.
Can you imagine being in company and telling a joke and handing people copies of it at the end of the evening. Sure you can communicate a good joke by writing it down, especially if you have no other option, but you'd be a freak to collect them in a book. And you wouldn't be funny either.
Jay Leno and David Letterman read jokes written down for them every evening on their shows. Their monologues are not memorized, but read from Queue cards, and each of them have staffs of writers who create and sometimes collect jokes from wherever they find their "inspiration".
Obviously it's all about easily accessible info. The point is that it's not automatically a good thing. Is it? You know, quantity v quality and all that. I'm all for this site and the plenitude of info. But ... well, it's too late and novels and tunes are very different
Learning music from the dots without ever having heard that type of music in real life is like learning about Shakespeare by reading the the plays in school and never seeing one of them live on stage (sadly, that was the way I was taught Eng Lit in school, but I've made up for it since).
"Shakespeare is a great read though. Most of the performances are a let-down."
Not the professional productions at the Tobacco Factory Theatre in Bristol, which typically have runs of several weeks. The plays are performed in the round, the audience completely surrounding the stage and actors, and no-one in the audience is ever more than six rows from the action. Scenery is virtually non-existent - just the occasional prop - but lighting is used to good effect. The actors have four different entrances through the audience area into the acting arena (I think that's a better name than "stage" in this case because it isn't and it's slightly below audience level).
Every performance (and most of them are sell-outs) at the Tobacco Factory I've seen over the years has been absolutely riveting. They attract very good critical reviews that compare favourably with the big names such as the RSC.
The horror that is sheet music
The horror that is sheet music
I cant bloody learn it. Thank god for ABc. Im sure im not the only one who wish this would go die. Just out of interest, anyone got any thoughts on Tanglewood guitars ?
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Irish DADGAD
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Sorry you can't learn it. Too bad you weren't in my class. Every 6th grader in my school learns to read music- and they also learn by listening. Notation is a tool, like ABC, which I have trouble reading since it's so counterintuitive. I played a Tanglewood guitar and it was okay; it played well.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: The horror that is sheet music
re-reading my post; it's a bit flip and I apologize. One does not need notation for trad; it just helps.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: The horror that is sheet music
I'm with you - I hate stiletto heels, and all the women who can walk in them without looking like a troppling trollop
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by airport
Re: The horror that is sheet music
What's wrong with sheet music??? If You can't learn it, I'm sorry for You. I think it's a second dimension to learn tunes. Sometimes tunes are played so f***ing fast, that You can't get all the notes, and sometimes you fall over a good tune You never have heard played. Off course sheetmusic is not good in sessions (sheet music in very beginner sessions are OK), neither if You play on stage. I learned it myself when I was 7 Years old (many Years ago) and I'm very pleased to be able to do it.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by ceili
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Yawn
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Hup
Re: The horror that is sheet music
I feel for you Luke, I really do, you're missing out. I'm glad to have a good ear because that's important, but glad I can read sheetmusic as well, best of both worlds.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: The horror that is sheet music
When I was about seven I learned to play by ear. I didn't start learning to read sheet music until I was much older, and primarily because the people I was playing with at the time could. I was a little intimidated by their ability. It was a struggle for me to learn it, and it took several years, but it has been worth it.
These days, because there aren't many trad musicians in this area (eastern Michigan, western Ontario), my primary way of learning new tunes is to hear something on the radio, then find the sheets on the internet. Having only heard something once is not enough for me to be able to play from memory, but having the dots provokes the memory enough that I can absorb it in a few days.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by dlkes
Re: The horror that is sheet music
What's difficult? look at the bottom line. Just below that is D. Do you know the alphabet? Then you can read music. If you know where D is on your instrument (guitar?) then you can play off the music. You might need to practise a bit mind
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by gam
Re: The horror that is sheet music
The only problem with sheet music is this: When you are reading sheet music, you are not listening to the tune. All your concentration is on the reading.
I have no issue with sheet music other than it does take away from listening.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Agree with gam on the ease of learning how to read (it's definitely not rocket science) although as he says, one does need to practice to develop fluency. The problem Celtic Guitar raises only exists in those early stages when coming to grips with reading as once the art is developed, you do actually listen to what's being played.
As for learning from ABCs, I would not recommend this as the letters give you no idea of timing and phrasing for the tune.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Celtic makes a good point about how reading the music distracts from listening, but to become proficient at reading sheet music you have to learn to associate a tone with what you see on the page. In other words, you should be able to read the notes and hear them in your heard without touching an instrument. Hearing it should eventually become secondary. What happens with the instrument then becomes just the expression of what's in your head. The tone becomes associated with a position on the instrument, not the other way around. I think most multi-instrumentalists will tell you that they know a tune as a set of tones which doesn't require re-learning with each instrument.The only thing that is relearnt is how the tone is expressed.
Lukeoprey - something that may help tremendously is to start with a tune you already know well. Something you can play from memory. As you play it, follow along with the sheet music. That way you will learn to associate a dot with the tone you already hear in your head. A little practice and it will become easy. By the way, you don't even have to play the instrument to make that work.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by dlkes
Re: The horror that is sheet music
It's an amazing coincidence but I've just stumbled on a new post at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19747 which I think proves my point about ABCs. Full marks are due to Reverend for decoding it, but I definitely wouldn't have had a clue and I doubt if I'm in the minority on this.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
I've always taken it as a given that people remember tunes tonally rather than as a string of letters or whatever - although I did once meet a young beginner fiddler who said she lost the tune because of a distraction causing her to forget the letters! As Ravenwood says practising with reading leads eventually to a situation where you can hear the melody in your head just looking at the notes without the need for an instrument. This is a great assett when browsing through music books to find some nice new tunes or even to learn tunes when travelling on a bus or train - you may get some funny looks from fellow passengers as you lilt or whistle quietly but it's definitely a better option than taking out your fiddle.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
What is it with Irish Trad Musicians and sheet music???
Is there any other musical genre where such begrudgery against sheet music exists. I play, on and off, with musicians, good musicians in their own right, who only came to ITM through sheet music and as such they have very little retention. I am blessed with good retention, but that only comes from years of playing in sessions etc. and with no music for the tunes available. Nowadays nearly every tune is written down which is a wonderful thing and gives non traditional musicians a chance to join in and enjoy the music. Who are we to deny them that privilege.??. I worry more about so called top players who go on radio/TV/ concerts etc and don't bother their arse to find out the name of the tunes that they are playing --(I know it is not always possible to find the correct name for a tune, but this is the kind of thing I getting at)eg:
"I'm going to play a jig I learnt from a Mrs Reilly from Drumslapagutter, and I'll follow that with another one that I have no name for" He then goes on to play something well known such as the 'Out in the Ocean' followed by 'The Frost is all over'. Surely to God he could have tried to find out what the tunes were called before the performance......Now that really gets up my nose.......(Screams with frustration)
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Tanglewood=nice
I just a jumbo one, and I really like it. It's really good for drop D too.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by dannym
The horror ~ cue cards might help
Free Reed; There are too many tunes to know all the tunes & all their names as well.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: The horror that is sheet music
I have to agree totally with Free Reed on this that names are fairly readily available for the vast majority of tunes. I'm never sure whether it's a case of laziness when these musicians, who should know better, can't remember a tune name or whether it's a case of arrogance that they'd never find a tune such as the Blackthorn Stick in the Irish Fiddler like us mere mortals, but instead got it from an obscure source such as Mrs Gillhooley in Ballymothóin!
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
It is sheet music in the session that is the no-no.
The ability to be able to read it is the bit that matters, as it ensures you can count in the required time signature. And if you have also studied harmony, even a melody-line player benefits.
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by geoffwright
Mrs Gillhooley in Ballymothóin
Very nice Bannerman.
He could say, "Some of you may know this one as Mick Mulcahy's, O'Connel's Jig On Top Of Mount Everest, O'er The Sea, Out In The Ocean, Portroe, Split The Whisker, Tierney's, or The Wind Is Over The Ocean."
or
"I'm going to play a jig I learnt from a Mrs Reilly from Drumslapagutter. Followed by 'The Loughrea'."
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Random-notes - Not too sure about the 'Split the Whisker' name. Sexual overtones and all that. Perhaps in that particular case one would be better referring to 'Mrs Reilly's etc.......!!!!!!!
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: The horror that is sheet music
The horror that is ABC, thank god for sheet music, I can't make hide nor hair of that awful alphabet soup......
# Posted on November 15th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: The horror that is sheet music
The great thing about sheet music is that is gives a visual representation of the ups and downs of the tune - which ABC cannot do.
And isn't "The Wind Is Over The Ocean" the full name of "Over The Ocean"? It makes more sense.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The horror that is sheet music
This jig has to be the most named tune in the tradition as I've also heard it referred to as "Roland's".
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
As someone who has picked up music-reading slowly over the years, I can't stand the horror that is ABC. We have one fine system that works, why invent another ? Except it's hard to input to a computer.
There's a lot to be said for learning by ear too.
Personally, I don't think not knowing the name of your tunes is the greatest sin in the world - possibly the third or fourth, after not tuning, playing too fast, and noodling.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Wasn't it Martin Hayes who said that if you know the names of all the tunes you know, then you've don't know enough tunes?
That may be an apocryphal quote, but what is more to the point is that there are some of us who can quite genuinely play the age card when it comes to not remembering names of tunes.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The horror that is sheet music
"you" - not "you've"
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The horror that is sheet music
At the 2008 Catskill Irish Arts Week, James Keane gave a lecture with Mick Moloney. One of the main points was that Irish Traditional music has been through some good times and bad, and that learning something about each and every tune you come upon will give you a better background of the tune itself and of the broader tradition. I'm at the point where new tunes are coming at me constantly, so finding the names sometimes takes me as long as learning the tune.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Stuporman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
The tunes are my friends. I like knowing their names--it's the least I can do. And I try to learn something about their backstory. Specifically, I try to learn the chain of players who gave me the tune. If I learned it from Clay, and he got it from Aly, and he got it from Tom, that means more than just glomming onto tunes from cds.
I realize that not everyone approaches the music this way, but I like the richer context, the cultural and personal depth, such information brings to the music. The music is exchanged among *people,* and I enjoy getting to know those people.
As for the dots and abc, I use both, and tablature too. I can read at speed in any of those systems, mostly because they all translate directly to ear (aka sight hearing). Not much different than being able to read in different languages....
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Thank you lazyhound! Now, what was the name of that tune again?
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by dlkes
Re: The horror that is sheet music
For me the worst thing about sheet music is not the sheet music itself, it's when really bad transcriptions are notated here, especially with contemporary tunes. It really bugs me when a tune is put up and despite knowing the writer the transcriber doesn't make as sure as possible that it's a good representation of the tune. It seems to happen a lot when people put up Scottish pipe tunes. There have been dozens of absolutely stinking versions of otherwise cracking tunes. The result being that anyone who hasn't listened to a tune enough before learning it learns the crap watered down version they find here damaging the tune like a nasty decease.
At the end of the day whether you learn all tunes by ear, by sheet music or both, not bothering to listen properly is what really does the music a disservice.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by bogman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Of course you couldn't be expected to know the names of every reel, jig or hornpipe. You would have to be a genius to remember them all. My beef is musicians who don't know the names of the 'old chestnuts' For instance 'Egan's Polka' is still named in many tutors as 'A Kerry Polka'. I was at a concert a few years ago where accordion player Josephine Marsh was playing. She went on at some length to tell us that she learnt the next tune from her father when she was young girl and because of that she called it after him. Paddy's Polka or something similar. She then went on to play what I've known all my life as 'The Ennis Reel' probably because it was played mostly for the 'Siege of Ennis' I felt like shouting out "That's not Paddy's Polka' that's the Ennis Reel. For those of you who know the ABC format this is how the Ennis Reel goes:-
Da - Da Da - Da Da Da Da -De Da Da Da - Da Da Da Da Da etc and the timing is Up and Down and Up and Down and Up and Down etc.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: The horror that is sheet music
here here (or is it hear hear?) bogman ... poor transcriptions are taking over just like a nasty disease. I've been a few places where the 'settings' often seem to come from here, and if they're wrong or merely watered down, no matter because they are becoming dominant and not simply emergent!
It's a new phenomenon really isn't it? Years ago it was so hard to come by tunes (outside Ireland & a few other places), I mean you had to literally buttonhole people to teach you them, and even though then there was no guarantee it was 'the best setting', I think there was still some sort of quality control going on. Now it's all so easy, millions of tunes everywhere, no need to hunt down someone who plays the tune you want anymore - it's all for the good, but there are some interesting side-effects. Some of them are maybe less desirable than others.
Who knows where it's all going to lead? One thing's for sure things have changed enormously over the last ten or so years.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by pavlf
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Stiletto heels make rather nice handles.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by awildman2384
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Free Reed,
even worse than calling Egan's polka ''A Kerry Polka'', I've often seen it called ''THE Kerry polka'', implying that it's the only polka from Kerry!!! Talk about ignorance.
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by cathycook
Re: The horror that is sheet music
So that's why we play a different tune everytime someone calls, "Gan Ainm Polka"
# Posted on November 16th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: The horror that is sheet music
"you had to literally buttonhole people to teach you them"
But nowadays they'll say "I'll send you the dots" or "look it up on thesession", so you're back where you started.
Can't see it doing any harm if it jogs your memory. There wouldn't be many people to play with if we all had to learn tunes one-on-one. Simple mathematics. Or is it arithmetic?
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bren
Re: The horror that is sheet music
I physically can't read sheet music because it goes all loopy when I read it. The lines do a kind of heat haze and the notes jump about. Not ideal. Ah well, I seem to get on well enough learning by ear.
I tend to record tunes I hear in sessions and would like to learn on my phone so that I can listen to them back and learn them - and ask the name of it after they've finished playing it (generally I get a name - if not I just play to people til I do!).
I like to know the names to the tunes I know as hearing the name makes the tune play in my head. Which is a problem in everyday conversation sometimes!
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by An Kammneves
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Just imagine how few stories you'd pass on if you were only allowed to tell people them, instead of lending them the book ("oh no - it's not the done thing to read the letters"). Same with music - I like being able to pass on the dots to somebody if I can't play it to them enough times for them to get it.
And yes, I can read music very well and hear it in my head when I read it. I also read books and hear the dialogue and inflections in my head.
They're all tools, and tools are damn useful.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bredna
Re: The horror that is sheet music
It can be done but why would someone want to use crutches in any kind of endeavor? Only for necessity.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by wvwhistler
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Bredna, I have nothing against tools that are sharp and maintained for their purpose. The difficulty with dots is mostly that it is extremely difficult to write and therefore constricts the mind and inhibits the freedom of expression that makes the music so brilliant. Music must keep its' humanity.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by wvwhistler
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Today I finished reading 'The Grapes of Wrath' by John Steinbeck. for the third time. Each time round I've discovered something new about he characters and the wider meaning of the story. John Steinbeck died a year before I was born, so he was never around to share his stories with me in person. Thank goodness he wrote them down. His books have had a profound effect on my life. I feel like I know the characters personally, and I'm there in the story on every page. I'm so glad I know how to read.
Talking of humanity, I'm glad that Mr Mozart took the trouble to write things down too...
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by McDermott
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Sheet music is as good a tool as the users want it to be and the Classical composers are proof of this. Just because some trad tunes are badly written is not a reflection on the notation but rather the incompetence of the writer. This can equally apply to the played or recorded versions of tunes which sometimes can also be quite innaccurate.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
The Grapes of Wrath is a masterpiece, no doubt about that. But what would happen if "I" wrote up what I thought it that novel was here? I've got nothing against sheet music or abc, it's all useful. There are pros and cons with all this easily accessible information is all.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by pavlf
Re: The horror that is sheet music
"Easily accessible information" is what this site is all about.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bren
Re: The horror that is sheet music
"Just imagine how few stories you'd pass on if you were only allowed to tell people them, instead of lending them the book"
That's an interesting analogy, but in the grand scheme of things, diddley tunes are not really stories are they. More like anecdotes, or even jokes. Witty one liners, shaggy dog stories etc.
Can you imagine being in company and telling a joke and handing people copies of it at the end of the evening. Sure you can communicate a good joke by writing it down, especially if you have no other option, but you'd be a freak to collect them in a book. And you wouldn't be funny either.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by ...
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Can you imagine people meeting in the pub to tell the same joke simultaneously each week?
Now that *would* be funny.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bren
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Jay Leno and David Letterman read jokes written down for them every evening on their shows. Their monologues are not memorized, but read from Queue cards, and each of them have staffs of writers who create and sometimes collect jokes from wherever they find their "inspiration".
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by pbassnote
Re: The horror that is sheet music
The one about paying a bodhrán with a pen knife would have to be the Kesh of them all!
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
ha ha, you're right there. And the Kesh is still a good tune
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by ...
Re: The horror that is sheet music
And where would we be at Christmas time if there were no joke books to buy as presents?
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Obviously it's all about easily accessible info. The point is that it's not automatically a good thing. Is it? You know, quantity v quality and all that. I'm all for this site and the plenitude of info. But ... well, it's too late and novels and tunes are very different
# Posted on November 18th 2008 by pavlf
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Learning music from the dots without ever having heard that type of music in real life is like learning about Shakespeare by reading the the plays in school and never seeing one of them live on stage (sadly, that was the way I was taught Eng Lit in school, but I've made up for it since).
# Posted on November 18th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The horror that is sheet music
Shakespeare is a great read though. Most of the performances are a let-down.
# Posted on November 19th 2008 by Bren
Re: The horror that is sheet music
A little off-topic ...
"Shakespeare is a great read though. Most of the performances are a let-down."
Not the professional productions at the Tobacco Factory Theatre in Bristol, which typically have runs of several weeks. The plays are performed in the round, the audience completely surrounding the stage and actors, and no-one in the audience is ever more than six rows from the action. Scenery is virtually non-existent - just the occasional prop - but lighting is used to good effect. The actors have four different entrances through the audience area into the acting arena (I think that's a better name than "stage" in this case because it isn't and it's slightly below audience level).
Every performance (and most of them are sell-outs) at the Tobacco Factory I've seen over the years has been absolutely riveting. They attract very good critical reviews that compare favourably with the big names such as the RSC.
# Posted on November 19th 2008 by Trevor Jennings