Since many TIM tunes are played using the D & A strings on a mandolin or octave mandolin the majority of the time, has anyone ever converted a 6 steel string 3/4 size guitar to a 6 string cittern by adding a mandolin tail piece and re-cutting the nut for the correct spacing for the four new middle strings and keep the GDAE tuning??
Thus making an instrument with one single G string, double D & A strings and a single E string.
what I do with a dobro (resophonic guitar) is tune to GGDAAE - It takes a bit of getting used to, especially fretting across both the A strings at the same time. The Dobro can handle the bass string tension as it's normal tuning is GBDGBD. The third string is the one most likely to break, being raised like the first, but then if it does break you have a spare already there.
This saves on cutting a new nut and bridge, plus you can easily return to GBDGBD, DGDGBD, EADGBE and all the other guitar tunings. I've only tried this on a dobro though, not on a regular steel string guitar. Dobro strings are fairly robust and expensive!
I was talking about this with Pat Ead last week whilst looking at his new Paul Doyle 8 string guitar bodied gazouki or is it baztar
i've tried playing a 12-string guitar that had been re-strung as some version of a 'zouk, and it didn't work particularly well, principally because there was an empty area at each side of the fingerboard.
There is some justification for designing and building an instrument to do one job, and leave it like that.
I would suggest that you wouldn't have enough 'break' over the bridge to keep the strings in place using a tailpiece. Maybe if you re-set the neck as well. Also, yes you do use the E strings a lot, certainly as a 'zouk/octave mandolin-type instrument.
Messing around with tunings can be interesting. This is nothing to do with sessions, just fun, I've treated myself to a Strat from a little lottery win but I couldn,t the hang of the EADGBE or DADGAD thing so I've changed the string weights and tuned mostly in sevenths instead of fiths with a base D, so it goes DDGDAE. Behold! a mandolin etc. player became an instant bass and lead guitar player, with a distinctive sound (well different at least) and a full repertoire
"has anyone ever converted a 6 steel string 3/4 size guitar to a 6 string cittern by adding a mandolin tail piece and re-cutting the nut for the correct spacing for the four new middle strings and keep the GDAE tuning??"
I don't think changing the tailpiece would do anything to improve it - a fixed-bridge instrument is designed for a fixed bridge, with the strings terminating at the bridge. Perhaps you'd be better off taking a cittern and chaning the bridge and nut to take 6 strings instead of 10.
You could just use a guitar 'as-is' and select the appropriate string gauges for your chosen tuning. But it must be borne in mind that, if you are tuning in 5ths (C,,G,,D,A,EB say), then you are covering a range of almost 3 octaves on open strings, all at the same scale length. So you'll run into problems with balancing tensions and string gauges - the lowest will be either very heavy and stiff or very loose, while the highest will be either very thin or very tight - and the associated intonation problems
That said, 10-strings citterns do typically have a scale length somewhat shorter than a guitar (perhaps about equivalent to a 3/4-size guitar) and can be strung either with a low 5th string (C,,G,,D,A,E D,,G,,D,A,E etc.) or a high 1st string (G,,D,A,EB G,,D,A,EA etc.), so perhaps combining the two is not unfeasible.
Parlor Boyle - if you can afford to buy lots of strings to experiment with, then do it. You'll need to file your nut slots wider for the bass strings - buying a couple of spare nuts would be a good idea, in case you mess up. If you find a string gauge/tuning combination that works, you'll almost certainly find that the intonation goes haywire, so you'll need to add compensation at the saddle (the compensation distance may well be more than the thickness of the saddle itself, in which case a little ingenuity would be required ).
Why not just go to a music shop and buy a suitable cittern/ 'zouk/ mandola instrument?
All this endless modifying and mucking about with instruments is nonsense. I believe you should leave tech stuff to the technicians and as a musician you should get on with playing the music.
Even if you did make a half decent job of a conversion wouldn't the result look a bit naff, be somewhat unconventional, probably sound crappe and, of course, It ain't gonna improve your playing!
All the time spent poncing about with fretwire, glue and strings...Ugh! You would be better off using the time to learn a tune or two!!!
Bloody guitar players!
Take a 12-string guitar and tune it:
dgddae (or cgddae)
or dgdeae (or cgdeae)
Both would give you the gdae on open strings to produce mandolin tunes. And being a 12-string to start with, the e string is a unison pair rather than a single string as in your proposed conversion.
A better solution is to find one of the 50's "jazz" style guitars - maybe a Hoffner or similar - you can find crap ones in junk shops for under £100.
I can't find the reference at the moment but there is a guy on the web who gives very good instructions.
They don't sound particularilly like a Cittern/bouzouki though.
A single Low G string was/is fairly common on mandocello style instruments due to the low tension of unison strings causing the strings to strike each other - also caused some acoustic interference when doubled - the C became clearer when single.
Fixed bridge instruments have a VERY high break angle over the bridge saddle in part to drive lots of energy into the top - flat tops with bridges are braced fairly heavily to counter the pulling/twisting forces of the strings and fixed bridge and hence need more energy.
Basically the bigger the angle the greater the energy.
jazz type guitars and Citterns etc with tailpieces tend to have much smaller break angles and less bracing or just carved tops that are lighter to drive acoustically.
6 String Cittern ???
6 String Cittern ???
Since many TIM tunes are played using the D & A strings on a mandolin or octave mandolin the majority of the time, has anyone ever converted a 6 steel string 3/4 size guitar to a 6 string cittern by adding a mandolin tail piece and re-cutting the nut for the correct spacing for the four new middle strings and keep the GDAE tuning??
Thus making an instrument with one single G string, double D & A strings and a single E string.
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
That wouldnt really make it a Cittern though.......??
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by seaniemcg
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
what I do with a dobro (resophonic guitar) is tune to GGDAAE - It takes a bit of getting used to, especially fretting across both the A strings at the same time. The Dobro can handle the bass string tension as it's normal tuning is GBDGBD. The third string is the one most likely to break, being raised like the first, but then if it does break you have a spare already there.
This saves on cutting a new nut and bridge, plus you can easily return to GBDGBD, DGDGBD, EADGBE and all the other guitar tunings. I've only tried this on a dobro though, not on a regular steel string guitar. Dobro strings are fairly robust and expensive!
I was talking about this with Pat Ead last week whilst looking at his new Paul Doyle 8 string guitar bodied gazouki or is it baztar
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by *Davy Rogers
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
i've tried playing a 12-string guitar that had been re-strung as some version of a 'zouk, and it didn't work particularly well, principally because there was an empty area at each side of the fingerboard.
There is some justification for designing and building an instrument to do one job, and leave it like that.
I would suggest that you wouldn't have enough 'break' over the bridge to keep the strings in place using a tailpiece. Maybe if you re-set the neck as well. Also, yes you do use the E strings a lot, certainly as a 'zouk/octave mandolin-type instrument.
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
Messing around with tunings can be interesting. This is nothing to do with sessions, just fun, I've treated myself to a Strat from a little lottery win but I couldn,t the hang of the EADGBE or DADGAD thing so I've changed the string weights and tuned mostly in sevenths instead of fiths with a base D, so it goes DDGDAE. Behold! a mandolin etc. player became an instant bass and lead guitar player, with a distinctive sound (well different at least) and a full repertoire
# Posted on November 6th 2008 by greg sheils
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
"has anyone ever converted a 6 steel string 3/4 size guitar to a 6 string cittern by adding a mandolin tail piece and re-cutting the nut for the correct spacing for the four new middle strings and keep the GDAE tuning??"
).
I don't think changing the tailpiece would do anything to improve it - a fixed-bridge instrument is designed for a fixed bridge, with the strings terminating at the bridge. Perhaps you'd be better off taking a cittern and chaning the bridge and nut to take 6 strings instead of 10.
You could just use a guitar 'as-is' and select the appropriate string gauges for your chosen tuning. But it must be borne in mind that, if you are tuning in 5ths (C,,G,,D,A,EB say), then you are covering a range of almost 3 octaves on open strings, all at the same scale length. So you'll run into problems with balancing tensions and string gauges - the lowest will be either very heavy and stiff or very loose, while the highest will be either very thin or very tight - and the associated intonation problems
That said, 10-strings citterns do typically have a scale length somewhat shorter than a guitar (perhaps about equivalent to a 3/4-size guitar) and can be strung either with a low 5th string (C,,G,,D,A,E D,,G,,D,A,E etc.) or a high 1st string (G,,D,A,EB G,,D,A,EA etc.), so perhaps combining the two is not unfeasible.
Parlor Boyle - if you can afford to buy lots of strings to experiment with, then do it. You'll need to file your nut slots wider for the bass strings - buying a couple of spare nuts would be a good idea, in case you mess up. If you find a string gauge/tuning combination that works, you'll almost certainly find that the intonation goes haywire, so you'll need to add compensation at the saddle (the compensation distance may well be more than the thickness of the saddle itself, in which case a little ingenuity would be required
# Posted on November 6th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
Why not just go to a music shop and buy a suitable cittern/ 'zouk/ mandola instrument?
All this endless modifying and mucking about with instruments is nonsense. I believe you should leave tech stuff to the technicians and as a musician you should get on with playing the music.
Even if you did make a half decent job of a conversion wouldn't the result look a bit naff, be somewhat unconventional, probably sound crappe and, of course, It ain't gonna improve your playing!
All the time spent poncing about with fretwire, glue and strings...Ugh! You would be better off using the time to learn a tune or two!!!
Bloody guitar players!
# Posted on November 6th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
Take a 12-string guitar and tune it:
dgddae (or cgddae)
or dgdeae (or cgdeae)
Both would give you the gdae on open strings to produce mandolin tunes. And being a 12-string to start with, the e string is a unison pair rather than a single string as in your proposed conversion.
# Posted on November 7th 2008 by Mike Floorstand
Re: 6 String Cittern ???
A better solution is to find one of the 50's "jazz" style guitars - maybe a Hoffner or similar - you can find crap ones in junk shops for under £100.
I can't find the reference at the moment but there is a guy on the web who gives very good instructions.
They don't sound particularilly like a Cittern/bouzouki though.
A single Low G string was/is fairly common on mandocello style instruments due to the low tension of unison strings causing the strings to strike each other - also caused some acoustic interference when doubled - the C became clearer when single.
Fixed bridge instruments have a VERY high break angle over the bridge saddle in part to drive lots of energy into the top - flat tops with bridges are braced fairly heavily to counter the pulling/twisting forces of the strings and fixed bridge and hence need more energy.
Basically the bigger the angle the greater the energy.
jazz type guitars and Citterns etc with tailpieces tend to have much smaller break angles and less bracing or just carved tops that are lighter to drive acoustically.
# Posted on November 11th 2008 by UKCITTERN