So there I was - at work - when I got a call, out of the blue, from someone from the PRS. The work I was in at the time (it varies) is a place with two factories, employing altogether about 120 people. I felt intimidated and threatened by the call - apart from anything else they had called 6 times in the past two days, demanding to talk to 'the manager', before finally getting me.
Now, as it happens, I was able to tell them that we do not have music playing in the factory, so it should be OK. But it really felt like they were demanding money with menaces.
I did a bit of digging, via the Federation of Small Businesses, and found that they (the PRS) have been harassing a large number of businesses. Did you know that if an employee brings a radio to work, then you have to pay the licence fee as if everyone were listening (ie for your whole workforce)? It works out at about a grand sterling per annum per 50 employees.
And, in the course of my investigations I came across the recent story of a charity in Worcester which has been prosecuted by the PRS for allowing a choir to sing carols in their canteen last Christmas.
This will kill music. Certainly anyone's enjoyment of music. Perhaps that's their aim.
I for one don't care. I *hate* music. Can't stick it.
Trouble is, as you may have been able to detect from my OP, it's left me angry, and somewhat "humour-blind" as it were. The gist of the phone calls and the subsequent letter I received (which contained another threat - of prosecution if they turned up and found that there was, in fact a radio being played) was - 'let anyone bring in a radio, pay the fee'. End of story, really.
The PRS have been on to a number of businesses in my area, including a music shop. After a little research, it turns out that a shop that sells recorded music is exempt (logically, since by playing their music, it is actively promoting the performers whose rights the PRS purports to protect). Still, that didn't stop them trying it on - and even threatening 'legal' action - until the proprieter had found that out for himself.
Pubs need an 'entertainment licence' to host sessions. The publican is thereby paying the royalties of the composers of the material played therein. I wonder how much Paddy Fahey gets.
Surely you've seen Paddy himself caravanning around the West in his custom Bentley? You can hear the bodhran thumping through the subwoofers a mile away, even with the bullet-proof windows....
Wow, I thought this was a joke at first. So when the teenagers blast their music while driving down the street, who has to pay the licensing fee for the whole neighborhood?
Ridiculous. I used to think that US copyright enforcement was asinine, but apparently it's nothing compared to the UK.
LOL! I'd love to see a copyright lawyer running down the street after a boom-buh-boom-thump subwoofer-on-a-Chevy-chassis (what passes these days for automobiles) to slap a fine on the driver for unauthorized distribution of music. That's hilarious.
Yes, one of the local farmers who hires people to pack vegetables says they have been after him. From the PRS's point of view must be a financial no-brainer (until they have to start the legal bit). Pay someone not much more than the minimum wage to work through the local business directory and make the phone calls.
But then musicians do seem to be badly paid for the work they have to put in, so maybe us consumers have not being paying a fair rate for our listening.
I think if any decent musician were to be made aware of some of the practices of this lot in the UK at the moment, they'd be horrified, to be honest, David. And, frankly, I think we pay way too much for a lot of "our listening".
Trad is never going to be commercial IMO. The stuff that *is* commercial - pop and rubbish so-called 'classical', basically - makes its shameless perpetrators obscene amounts of money.
If anyone thinks the blackmailing tactics of the PRS, the effects of which DO stifle innocent enjoyment of music, are designed to give hard-working trad musicians a living wage, they're kidding themselves.
We have several players at our session who own up to morris dancing, so we'll have to prime them to leap into action at any sign of an inspector (morris dancing and "associated musical accompaniment" is exempt!)
You telling us Ben, that you actually have to pay for listening to that sort of crappy music on the radio!!! Jaysus, I'd feel like screaming and just throwing the damn things out the window when I hear all that mush. I'd send a bill to the bleedin PRS for assaulting my sanity!!
Note to self : I must be getting more intolerant as I get older...
So who bankrolls and directs the campaigns of the PRS?
Record companies rattled by seeing their profits crumble to Internet downloading? Big-name bands and performers?
If so, it seems a classic instance of a panicky and wound-up authority avoiding some real challenge because it is too formidable and difficult to cope with, and picking some quite innocuous person to beat up on because it's easier and makes the authority look / feel strong.
We find a way to copyright versions of all the major ITM tunes, but do it through some Third World nation that will do it REAL cheap. (Think arms trade, or pharmaceuticals.)
We then simply stick to our copyrighted versions, or close to them, when playing at sessions. Any problem, tell them they are protected under the copyright laws of Grand Fenwick, or Geshvir im Bowch or wherever we got them copyrighted.
If they choose to not repect the laws and rights of the Soveeign State of GF or GiB over someone playing a few tuines gratis for fun, let the feathers fly in some international court. Or they can treat them like bootleg DVDs from our dear trusted friends in Asia and elsewhere -- just seize and impound the music until further notice. That will teach us, eh?
Maybe the Isle of Man would do it; the location is convenient, but it wouldn't be so cheap.
Or you could approach one of these oddballs who are occupying platforms and islets all round Britain and declaring them independent states. As these are one-party states, political stability is guaranteed as long as they last, even if the mental balance of the rulers is not.
Yes, Hussar, that's *exactly* the position. The thing is, these current campaigns seem to be directed at small businesses in the UK which, quite frankly, are battling every single minute of *every* day just to stay alive and be able to keep employing their workforce. A thousand pounds here or there could tip the balance.
So, another way of looking at it - we could be talking a few pennies here and there for the odd musician versus people's jobs. Oh, and by the way, it also means that small employers are being expected to pay for the privilege of listening to the insulting and offensive diet provided by the BBC (among others) at the moment.
I wonder how the royalty money does work in broadcast radio in the UK. I had assumed that it was all covered by advertising on commecial radio or the BBC licence fee. So that by the time it went over the air the listening was paid for.
From the (often ambivalent) comments made by presenters on BBC local radio folk programs (mostly musicians themselves) about the PRS my impression is that the individual plays were logged and a few pence may trickle down to the artist eventually.
Workers/colleagues and/or customers/clients have been recognised by the courts as falling within the composer's ‘public’. Any person wishing either to play or to authorise the playing of PRS music to such individuals in the workplace - wherever that workplace is situated - should therefore obtain a PRS licence.
PRS requires any workplace using music to obtain a PRS licence. However, PRS, at its discretion, will not make a charge for its licence in certain circumstances:
Personal Portable Devices - Where music is only used in the workplace by individual employees or workers solely by means of Personal Portable Devices (such as MP3 players) with headphones. Any music must only be audible to the employee or worker to whom the Personal Portable Device belongs through a headset attached to that device and not to any other individual in the workplace.
If music is made available to employees or visitors to the premises by any other means, PRS would apply the relevant tariff.
So I reckon the answer is all employees have their own MP3 player or whatever so they can listen to whatever they want be it ITM or thrash metal. Of course this may well lead to a change in the law...it may be however a cunning plot to stop workers "associating" and forming 'unions' and the like.
If, as sessioners/singers, you care to look at PRS Public Houses Tarriff 'P' clause 3.1.4.3. you will see that you are already paying through costs being 'passed on'. In these hard times pubs may decided that it is no longer worth hosting a 'session' because of the costs and potential hassel dealing with PRS.
tradmoosic, PRS is a 'not for profit organisation' collecting fees on behalf of their members; they fund themselves by a percentage of the licence fee 'take'. Any questions?
So a factory manager has extorted from him the information that Radio 1 was playing in his premises from 9 to 5 (just to keep it simple).
Are we really to believe that shoals of Performing Rights Society people are going to dig out the day's playlist and divvy up the extorted akkers between hundreds of artists, half of them probably dead?
I can think of worse jobs, but I would only want to do that one in a fortress guarded by savage dogs and personnel and fearsome impediments to access. The thought of the Anglosphere denied its musical bromides or taxed unduly for them and thereby stirred up to embark on lively acts of vengeance, is more than somewhat disquieting.
Will CPT, are you suggesting that the lawyers who chase ambulances should switch to Chevy-Chassis-Chasers instead?
Seriously, though, this is not only asinine but it is insane and crazy.
Speaking as someone who works in a hospital, I would like to ask what are our patients supposed to listen to while they are lying in bed--especially the patients who are too sick to be allowed to get out of bed.
This is a murky subject, but here's my understanding of it (please forgive me if it's wrong).
PRS was originally founded to protect the interests of composers and artists whose music was broadcast in public. To join as an artist/composer you pay a one-off fee of £100 (for life membership). Radio stations and other venues that broadcast music pay a license fee. They declare the music they play (including the artists' and composers' names)} to the PRS. The PRS then calculates royalty payments based on the size of the audience. If you have a composition played on national radio, I think you'll receive about £50 - £80 each time it's played. In theory, any radio station or venue that has live music and a PRS license should declare what's been played at the venue. I think this also applies to Internet radio stations.
You can also claim copyright for your own arrangement of a traditional tune. All you have to do is write down the tune (even if it's note for note from someone sitting next to you in the session), and then publish it. It is possible for several people to have their 'own' copyright of arrangements of traditional tunes, even if they are all exactly the same. If you record this material and it is broadcast in public, you won't get much in royalties though: the 'big' money is always reserved for original composers.
PRS has international agreements with several other countries, so royalties are also passed around the world. As far as I know, the license fee paid by factories and small businesses etc. is put in a general pot, which will eventually trickle down to the artists/composers. This is where it all gets a bit sticky and contentious. Personally, I think that only radio stations and large music venues should have to pay the license fee. Benhall: your experience sounds horrible.
And what about pubs? If a pub pays a band to play, and the band plays covers, how do the composers benefit? They don't because in my experience pubs don't declare the music that is played. It doesn't make sense for pubs to have pay the license. It would be too complex and tricky to compile all the music played, and would probably cost more than it's worth. So once again, it's composers who lose out.
I'm not defending the PRS, but I am considering joining as a composer/artist. Some of my tunes have been played on radio stations, and some are continuously looped on internet radio stations. Why shouldn't I benefit from commercial operations that in turn benefit from my music?
There's a huge difference between asking broadcasters and live music venues to pay royalties, versus asking a business to pay licensing fees because an employee brought in a radio to listen to.
I don't think anyone has a problem with the former, but the later is insane. It sounds like these PRS guys have lost their damn minds. Or found a brilliant way to extort money legally.
I also don't understand how you can be required to pay to listen to broadcast music, when the broadcaster has already taken responsibility for the royalties.
That is the ultimate rip-off, to pay for satellite radio or listen to regular radio, listen to their commercials, or buy the CD or MP3, and pay the PRS? I mean, if you don't listen to it on headphones. How many times can they charge you for the same thing that someone else has already paid for?
"Composers and songwriters are small businesses. 90% of PRS members earn less than £5,000 a year in royalties."
Truly licensing run wild, the death throws of a dying industry, I can only hope. With the former wealth from purchased media dwindling rapidly in the face of online access, it seems these corporate vultures are intent on keeping their claws dug in any way they can.
Ultimately in ben's case here they're intent on licensing what your ears perceive, which is truly Orwellian.
...and that quote goes to show that most of the money made from these things go the organization and a small elite of artists, so it seems. I'm sure it's regulated by how popular your music is, and how often it gets played, yet name me one powerful org that doesn't take care of itself well? How much do they spend on lawyers to bug a factory, among all the other things and people?
PRS? Is this another of those Nigerian scams? The only thing musical about those bozos, the ones perpetuating this scam, are their farts. Any situation where there is a compound charge, they charge the radio stations and then charge the public for listening to those radio stations ~ is corruption, criminal, charging compound interest like that you find amongst the lending branches of organized crime. If you put the PRS in the dock, if someone had the money and balls to, the shallowness of its claims would soon unravel and I wouldn't be surprised if misappropriation of funds to their own ends, self-profit, was an additional discovery... If they charge like lawyers to for every phone call, every visit to a premise, a large amount, they will be raking it in... Is it any wonder they are so eager to harrass. My bother-in-law, who sells CDs, amongst other things, a small specialist shop, has also been pestered by these yahoos.
We have a similar situation in Australian with APRA - Australian Performing Rights Association. I help run a small folk festival where we do not pay any performers, we do not have a porgram, lessons are free adn we all have great fun. Its the longest running folk festival in Oz at 46 years this year. Our music is around the fire, by the creek, in the creek and at a small concert on New Years Day on the Green. Some call it the musicians holiday coz no one has to run off to a gig. the only running of is to have another swim, eat food, imbibe grog, sleep etc.
Having said that APRA caught up with us a couple of years ago to charge us a fee to get a licence to cover us for people playing traditional music!?!
I requested a list of the tunes/songs that we were paying for the pivilege of playing around a fire. I also asked them how they expceted to monitor which tunes/songs were being played so that they could ensure that the appropriate royalties could be forwarded to the composer/copyright holder. Of course they didn't have an answer for any of that but it didn't stop them enforcing "their right" to demand a licence fee. What a load of crap. I resised for two years but that didn't stop them sending me a letter threatening legal action if I didn't pay the fees (fines and possible jail time no less). So I gave up and paid. It was only $55 (which I could see would not go far amongst all the composers of those trad tunes if they could find them which I insisted they should and they wont coz I am sure most of them tunes come from the other side anyway) So the cruel dark side of capilist democracy rears its head in OZ as well. We must be vigilant aginst the application to the world of trad music of laws designed for the commercial world. This sort of stuff could easily kill music further as if TV and INternet hasn't done enough already. Cheers
Kiwi that sounds like you're paying a tax for the privilege of playing music together, and nobody benefits. The irony is that it probably cost the APRA more than $55 to chase after you and threaten legal action etc.
Could everyone from your festival get together and join the APRA as a massive band? You could write and play a load of tunes at your festival, then produce a playlist after the event and send it to the APRA demanding royalties!
They are definitely getting more agressive.
I have been searching various sites looking for challenges (& alternatives) to their wide ranging 'enforcement' policies.
Here is a link to the MCPS-PRS Alliance website;
Marklar and ceolachan hit it on the head, I think. The broadcasters *already* pay fees to broadcast the stuff. It really is iniquitous to ask for a further fee to listen to it.
I'm humored by the title and direction of the thread -- invoking some type of hallucination to thank for some thing having to do with unplugging sub-woofers.
This is my semi-annual post. My next post will be in early May of 2009 while witnessing Will_CPT drinks too much and pukes on the Reverend (again), while slicing his finger with a safety razor, but neither reminds me of Jason B, a sessioneer, who moved to Santa Barbara, but I'm yet to see him dead drunk or play the Banjo, at least he wasn't naked like most of the others who post here, myself included, while simultaneously playing flute and gazing at a picture of Sarah P and repeating over and over "4 more years!" "4 more years!"
PRS, APRA etc work well enough in the world of commercial music and legal contracts.
Although their distribution is far form transparent and tends to give to them that hath. Specifically, them that hath good lawyers and accountants, which means those who already have some commercial success.
Unfortunately their collections are done in a bureaucratic manner with a touch of old-fashioned union bullying, like in the days when unions took their power for granted.
Totally inappropriate for people who play music voluntarily and for fun, but in public. Or who listen to a radio in public. They should come in to your workplace, note how many people are listening to each radio station, and then take it back to the radio stations in question.
Some of that stuff on the MCPS-PRS web site seems deliberately ambiguous.
For example "Where music is used in the workplace by individual employees or workers solely by means of Personal Portable Devices (such as MP3 players) with headphones PRS does not charge a licence fee"
Most obvious reading of this is that it is because they chose not to. Another reading could be that its because you don't need a licence. But it might involve a legal bill to be sure.
Similarly the bit about the TV licence is not the right question. Question might be " I have paid a licence fee to listen to broadcasts by the BBC. Does something in the copyright act or a court decision mean that a licence from you is needed for me to do so on a colleagues radio." They could answer "yes".
But I think they would then be putting themselves on the spot.
Not on that page of their web site or in what john knoss quoted they are not; its all hedged about in weasle words. The stuff that is not ambiguous might only relate to playing recorded music. Why can't they just quote from the copyright act or say that on date XXX small company YYY was succesfully prosecuted in court ZZZ for allowing members of its workforce to listen to broadcast radio without having a PRS licence. I would have thought it would save them a lot of menacing phone calls. It is being done in a way that forces companies to either pay up or to call their bluff and risk a big legal bill if they fail.
"When recorded music or TV or radio broadcasts containing music are played in public the owners of the rights within that music are entitled to royalties. Generally, music is played in public if it is played anywhere other than in a private home. This ensures that the creators of these works receive fair rewards for their creativity."
The link was www.ipo.gov.uk/consult-musiclicencing-summary.doc. Link is broken but Google still lets you view in in HTML (search "copyright" "broadcast music")
So it seems to be UK law. No point in blaming PRS except for heavy handed behavoir.
Of course the other side of the coin is what about the composers/performers? Let's not kid ourselves - broadcasters, promoters, commercial venues etc. would not trouble themselves to recompense those who 'make' the music we listen to if they thought they could get away with it.
Copyright Law is about ensuring those whose intellectual property is used are paid for their efforts/talents in whatever field of creative activity be it music, writing, or imagery. Put yourself in their place, would you like to see your work exploited with no return to you?
The actual activities of the PRS however, as david_h says, can and should be described as heavy handed and intimidatory. It is a poor system but until something better can be invented we'll have to live with it.
I don't agree. If I made my living out of music, which at one time looked likely, I would not want an organisation supposedly acting on my behalf to be responsible for putting additional pressure on small businesses, criminalising normal human behaviour and putting jobs at risk.
Just doing some idle research.
I'll post if I find anything useful. In the meantime . . .
In the U.S. librarians can use certain materials considered public domain.
There are various ways something is considered P.D.
The following are "Special Cases" (for public domain) ~
Created by a resident of Afghanistan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, San Marino, and published in one of these countries Not protected by US copyright law because they are not party to international copyright agreements.
So you might want to reconsider cutting your CD at that recording studio in Tehran. ;)
PRS will kill music, thank God!
PRS will kill music, thank God!
So there I was - at work - when I got a call, out of the blue, from someone from the PRS. The work I was in at the time (it varies) is a place with two factories, employing altogether about 120 people. I felt intimidated and threatened by the call - apart from anything else they had called 6 times in the past two days, demanding to talk to 'the manager', before finally getting me.
Now, as it happens, I was able to tell them that we do not have music playing in the factory, so it should be OK. But it really felt like they were demanding money with menaces.
I did a bit of digging, via the Federation of Small Businesses, and found that they (the PRS) have been harassing a large number of businesses. Did you know that if an employee brings a radio to work, then you have to pay the licence fee as if everyone were listening (ie for your whole workforce)? It works out at about a grand sterling per annum per 50 employees.
And, in the course of my investigations I came across the recent story of a charity in Worcester which has been prosecuted by the PRS for allowing a choir to sing carols in their canteen last Christmas.
This will kill music. Certainly anyone's enjoyment of music. Perhaps that's their aim.
I for one don't care. I *hate* music. Can't stick it.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I sincerely hope this is a wind up.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
'Fraid it isn't. Even the bit about the Christmas carols. Honest.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Be careful at night. The PRS are flesh eating zombies.
I'm with you Ben. I hate all music!
They aren't charging for trad; are they?
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
That's terrible - but it led me to a website listing public domain Christmas carols - or maybe it doesn't matter?
http://www.pdinfo.com/listPDsongs/PDChristmasSongs.htm
Maybe it will just kill modern music - or at least the portion I don't like...
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by airport
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Trouble is, as you may have been able to detect from my OP, it's left me angry, and somewhat "humour-blind" as it were. The gist of the phone calls and the subsequent letter I received (which contained another threat - of prosecution if they turned up and found that there was, in fact a radio being played) was - 'let anyone bring in a radio, pay the fee'. End of story, really.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Ah ... 'cross' post, as it were. My last was in answer to Random ...
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
The PRS have been on to a number of businesses in my area, including a music shop. After a little research, it turns out that a shop that sells recorded music is exempt (logically, since by playing their music, it is actively promoting the performers whose rights the PRS purports to protect). Still, that didn't stop them trying it on - and even threatening 'legal' action - until the proprieter had found that out for himself.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
"They aren't charging for trad; are they?"
Pubs need an 'entertainment licence' to host sessions. The publican is thereby paying the royalties of the composers of the material played therein. I wonder how much Paddy Fahey gets.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Surely you've seen Paddy himself caravanning around the West in his custom Bentley? You can hear the bodhran thumping through the subwoofers a mile away, even with the bullet-proof windows....
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Wow, I thought this was a joke at first. So when the teenagers blast their music while driving down the street, who has to pay the licensing fee for the whole neighborhood?
Ridiculous. I used to think that US copyright enforcement was asinine, but apparently it's nothing compared to the UK.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Marklar
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
LOL! I'd love to see a copyright lawyer running down the street after a boom-buh-boom-thump subwoofer-on-a-Chevy-chassis (what passes these days for automobiles) to slap a fine on the driver for unauthorized distribution of music. That's hilarious.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Yes, one of the local farmers who hires people to pack vegetables says they have been after him. From the PRS's point of view must be a financial no-brainer (until they have to start the legal bit). Pay someone not much more than the minimum wage to work through the local business directory and make the phone calls.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
But then musicians do seem to be badly paid for the work they have to put in, so maybe us consumers have not being paying a fair rate for our listening.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I think if any decent musician were to be made aware of some of the practices of this lot in the UK at the moment, they'd be horrified, to be honest, David. And, frankly, I think we pay way too much for a lot of "our listening".
Trad is never going to be commercial IMO. The stuff that *is* commercial - pop and rubbish so-called 'classical', basically - makes its shameless perpetrators obscene amounts of money.
If anyone thinks the blackmailing tactics of the PRS, the effects of which DO stifle innocent enjoyment of music, are designed to give hard-working trad musicians a living wage, they're kidding themselves.
What ever happened to 'Music While You Work'?
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
We have several players at our session who own up to morris dancing, so we'll have to prime them to leap into action at any sign of an inspector (morris dancing and "associated musical accompaniment" is exempt!)
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by RichardB
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard - talk about taking things too far! Insane.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by bb
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
You telling us Ben, that you actually have to pay for listening to that sort of crappy music on the radio!!! Jaysus, I'd feel like screaming and just throwing the damn things out the window when I hear all that mush. I'd send a bill to the bleedin PRS for assaulting my sanity!!
Note to self : I must be getting more intolerant as I get older...
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
So who bankrolls and directs the campaigns of the PRS?
Record companies rattled by seeing their profits crumble to Internet downloading? Big-name bands and performers?
If so, it seems a classic instance of a panicky and wound-up authority avoiding some real challenge because it is too formidable and difficult to cope with, and picking some quite innocuous person to beat up on because it's easier and makes the authority look / feel strong.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by nicholas
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Here is what we might do:
We find a way to copyright versions of all the major ITM tunes, but do it through some Third World nation that will do it REAL cheap. (Think arms trade, or pharmaceuticals.)
We then simply stick to our copyrighted versions, or close to them, when playing at sessions. Any problem, tell them they are protected under the copyright laws of Grand Fenwick, or Geshvir im Bowch or wherever we got them copyrighted.
If they choose to not repect the laws and rights of the Soveeign State of GF or GiB over someone playing a few tuines gratis for fun, let the feathers fly in some international court. Or they can treat them like bootleg DVDs from our dear trusted friends in Asia and elsewhere -- just seize and impound the music until further notice. That will teach us, eh?
Plausible?
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Piece
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
God, don't even suggest that, Rook! Seriously, you'll keep lawyers in business for decades!!
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Maybe the Isle of Man would do it; the location is convenient, but it wouldn't be so cheap.
Or you could approach one of these oddballs who are occupying platforms and islets all round Britain and declaring them independent states. As these are one-party states, political stability is guaranteed as long as they last, even if the mental balance of the rulers is not.
Iceland may be glad of customers.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by nicholas
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Yes, Hussar, that's *exactly* the position. The thing is, these current campaigns seem to be directed at small businesses in the UK which, quite frankly, are battling every single minute of *every* day just to stay alive and be able to keep employing their workforce. A thousand pounds here or there could tip the balance.
So, another way of looking at it - we could be talking a few pennies here and there for the odd musician versus people's jobs. Oh, and by the way, it also means that small employers are being expected to pay for the privilege of listening to the insulting and offensive diet provided by the BBC (among others) at the moment.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I wonder how the royalty money does work in broadcast radio in the UK. I had assumed that it was all covered by advertising on commecial radio or the BBC licence fee. So that by the time it went over the air the listening was paid for.
From the (often ambivalent) comments made by presenters on BBC local radio folk programs (mostly musicians themselves) about the PRS my impression is that the individual plays were logged and a few pence may trickle down to the artist eventually.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Just been looking at the MCPS PRS web site...
Workplaces
Workers/colleagues and/or customers/clients have been recognised by the courts as falling within the composer's ‘public’. Any person wishing either to play or to authorise the playing of PRS music to such individuals in the workplace - wherever that workplace is situated - should therefore obtain a PRS licence.
PRS requires any workplace using music to obtain a PRS licence. However, PRS, at its discretion, will not make a charge for its licence in certain circumstances:
Personal Portable Devices - Where music is only used in the workplace by individual employees or workers solely by means of Personal Portable Devices (such as MP3 players) with headphones. Any music must only be audible to the employee or worker to whom the Personal Portable Device belongs through a headset attached to that device and not to any other individual in the workplace.
If music is made available to employees or visitors to the premises by any other means, PRS would apply the relevant tariff.
So I reckon the answer is all employees have their own MP3 player or whatever so they can listen to whatever they want be it ITM or thrash metal. Of course this may well lead to a change in the law...it may be however a cunning plot to stop workers "associating" and forming 'unions' and the like.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by john knoss
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
"PRS, at its discretion, will not make a charge for its licence in certain circumstances"
Well, we know from actual cases that they don't stop short at extorting money from charities. And they don't like Christmas music. etc etc
Frankly, they're just evil.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
who the hell is prs? whatever they are thank god we dont have them in ireland.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
If, as sessioners/singers, you care to look at PRS Public Houses Tarriff 'P' clause 3.1.4.3. you will see that you are already paying through costs being 'passed on'. In these hard times pubs may decided that it is no longer worth hosting a 'session' because of the costs and potential hassel dealing with PRS.
tradmoosic, PRS is a 'not for profit organisation' collecting fees on behalf of their members; they fund themselves by a percentage of the licence fee 'take'. Any questions?
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by john knoss
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
.who the hell is prs? whatever they are thank god we dont have them in ireland..
No, we have IMRO instead.
Remember, the ones who bought the rights to Irish Music off Larry Murphy
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
So a factory manager has extorted from him the information that Radio 1 was playing in his premises from 9 to 5 (just to keep it simple).
Are we really to believe that shoals of Performing Rights Society people are going to dig out the day's playlist and divvy up the extorted akkers between hundreds of artists, half of them probably dead?
I can think of worse jobs, but I would only want to do that one in a fortress guarded by savage dogs and personnel and fearsome impediments to access. The thought of the Anglosphere denied its musical bromides or taxed unduly for them and thereby stirred up to embark on lively acts of vengeance, is more than somewhat disquieting.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by nicholas
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Will CPT, are you suggesting that the lawyers who chase ambulances should switch to Chevy-Chassis-Chasers instead?
Seriously, though, this is not only asinine but it is insane and crazy.
Speaking as someone who works in a hospital, I would like to ask what are our patients supposed to listen to while they are lying in bed--especially the patients who are too sick to be allowed to get out of bed.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
This is a murky subject, but here's my understanding of it (please forgive me if it's wrong).
PRS was originally founded to protect the interests of composers and artists whose music was broadcast in public. To join as an artist/composer you pay a one-off fee of £100 (for life membership). Radio stations and other venues that broadcast music pay a license fee. They declare the music they play (including the artists' and composers' names)} to the PRS. The PRS then calculates royalty payments based on the size of the audience. If you have a composition played on national radio, I think you'll receive about £50 - £80 each time it's played. In theory, any radio station or venue that has live music and a PRS license should declare what's been played at the venue. I think this also applies to Internet radio stations.
You can also claim copyright for your own arrangement of a traditional tune. All you have to do is write down the tune (even if it's note for note from someone sitting next to you in the session), and then publish it. It is possible for several people to have their 'own' copyright of arrangements of traditional tunes, even if they are all exactly the same. If you record this material and it is broadcast in public, you won't get much in royalties though: the 'big' money is always reserved for original composers.
PRS has international agreements with several other countries, so royalties are also passed around the world. As far as I know, the license fee paid by factories and small businesses etc. is put in a general pot, which will eventually trickle down to the artists/composers. This is where it all gets a bit sticky and contentious. Personally, I think that only radio stations and large music venues should have to pay the license fee. Benhall: your experience sounds horrible.
And what about pubs? If a pub pays a band to play, and the band plays covers, how do the composers benefit? They don't because in my experience pubs don't declare the music that is played. It doesn't make sense for pubs to have pay the license. It would be too complex and tricky to compile all the music played, and would probably cost more than it's worth. So once again, it's composers who lose out.
I'm not defending the PRS, but I am considering joining as a composer/artist. Some of my tunes have been played on radio stations, and some are continuously looped on internet radio stations. Why shouldn't I benefit from commercial operations that in turn benefit from my music?
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by McDermott
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
There's a huge difference between asking broadcasters and live music venues to pay royalties, versus asking a business to pay licensing fees because an employee brought in a radio to listen to.
I don't think anyone has a problem with the former, but the later is insane. It sounds like these PRS guys have lost their damn minds. Or found a brilliant way to extort money legally.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Marklar
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I also don't understand how you can be required to pay to listen to broadcast music, when the broadcaster has already taken responsibility for the royalties.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Marklar
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I totally agree with you Marklar.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by McDermott
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
That is the ultimate rip-off, to pay for satellite radio or listen to regular radio, listen to their commercials, or buy the CD or MP3, and pay the PRS? I mean, if you don't listen to it on headphones. How many times can they charge you for the same thing that someone else has already paid for?
"Composers and songwriters are small businesses. 90% of PRS members earn less than £5,000 a year in royalties."
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performing_Right_Society
Truly licensing run wild, the death throws of a dying industry, I can only hope. With the former wealth from purchased media dwindling rapidly in the face of online access, it seems these corporate vultures are intent on keeping their claws dug in any way they can.
Ultimately in ben's case here they're intent on licensing what your ears perceive, which is truly Orwellian.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
...and that quote goes to show that most of the money made from these things go the organization and a small elite of artists, so it seems. I'm sure it's regulated by how popular your music is, and how often it gets played, yet name me one powerful org that doesn't take care of itself well? How much do they spend on lawyers to bug a factory, among all the other things and people?
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
well, sh!t3! I'm truly sorry to hear of your predicament, ben... mebbe so, you should just throw a bodhran player at the wee beggars the next time...
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Pádraig
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
PRS? Is this another of those Nigerian scams? The only thing musical about those bozos, the ones perpetuating this scam, are their farts. Any situation where there is a compound charge, they charge the radio stations and then charge the public for listening to those radio stations ~ is corruption, criminal, charging compound interest like that you find amongst the lending branches of organized crime. If you put the PRS in the dock, if someone had the money and balls to, the shallowness of its claims would soon unravel and I wouldn't be surprised if misappropriation of funds to their own ends, self-profit, was an additional discovery... If they charge like lawyers to for every phone call, every visit to a premise, a large amount, they will be raking it in... Is it any wonder they are so eager to harrass. My bother-in-law, who sells CDs, amongst other things, a small specialist shop, has also been pestered by these yahoos.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
The only thing I know about PRS is that they make fantastic guitars, which, in the right hands will save music.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by strayaway
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
We have a similar situation in Australian with APRA - Australian Performing Rights Association. I help run a small folk festival where we do not pay any performers, we do not have a porgram, lessons are free adn we all have great fun. Its the longest running folk festival in Oz at 46 years this year. Our music is around the fire, by the creek, in the creek and at a small concert on New Years Day on the Green. Some call it the musicians holiday coz no one has to run off to a gig. the only running of is to have another swim, eat food, imbibe grog, sleep etc.
Having said that APRA caught up with us a couple of years ago to charge us a fee to get a licence to cover us for people playing traditional music!?!
I requested a list of the tunes/songs that we were paying for the pivilege of playing around a fire. I also asked them how they expceted to monitor which tunes/songs were being played so that they could ensure that the appropriate royalties could be forwarded to the composer/copyright holder. Of course they didn't have an answer for any of that but it didn't stop them enforcing "their right" to demand a licence fee. What a load of crap. I resised for two years but that didn't stop them sending me a letter threatening legal action if I didn't pay the fees (fines and possible jail time no less). So I gave up and paid. It was only $55 (which I could see would not go far amongst all the composers of those trad tunes if they could find them which I insisted they should and they wont coz I am sure most of them tunes come from the other side anyway) So the cruel dark side of capilist democracy rears its head in OZ as well. We must be vigilant aginst the application to the world of trad music of laws designed for the commercial world. This sort of stuff could easily kill music further as if TV and INternet hasn't done enough already. Cheers
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by kiwi
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Kiwi that sounds like you're paying a tax for the privilege of playing music together, and nobody benefits. The irony is that it probably cost the APRA more than $55 to chase after you and threaten legal action etc.
Could everyone from your festival get together and join the APRA as a massive band? You could write and play a load of tunes at your festival, then produce a playlist after the event and send it to the APRA demanding royalties!
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by McDermott
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
They are definitely getting more agressive.
I have been searching various sites looking for challenges (& alternatives) to their wide ranging 'enforcement' policies.
Here is a link to the MCPS-PRS Alliance website;
http://www.mcps-prs-alliance.co.uk/playingbroadcastingonline/music_for_businesses/Pages/FAQ.aspx#18
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Situation seems to be the same in Ireland. If you have a business and you allow your employees to listen to a radio then you have to have a license from IMRO. How much you pay depends on company size etc
http://www.imro.ie/music_users/music_use_in_factories_and_offices.shtml
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by podrisco
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Marklar and ceolachan hit it on the head, I think. The broadcasters *already* pay fees to broadcast the stuff. It really is iniquitous to ask for a further fee to listen to it.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I'm humored by the title and direction of the thread -- invoking some type of hallucination to thank for some thing having to do with unplugging sub-woofers.
This is my semi-annual post. My next post will be in early May of 2009 while witnessing Will_CPT drinks too much and pukes on the Reverend (again), while slicing his finger with a safety razor, but neither reminds me of Jason B, a sessioneer, who moved to Santa Barbara, but I'm yet to see him dead drunk or play the Banjo, at least he wasn't naked like most of the others who post here, myself included, while simultaneously playing flute and gazing at a picture of Sarah P and repeating over and over "4 more years!" "4 more years!"
I'll have some of what benhall.1 is having.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by Eliot
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
PRS, APRA etc work well enough in the world of commercial music and legal contracts.
Although their distribution is far form transparent and tends to give to them that hath. Specifically, them that hath good lawyers and accountants, which means those who already have some commercial success.
Unfortunately their collections are done in a bureaucratic manner with a touch of old-fashioned union bullying, like in the days when unions took their power for granted.
Totally inappropriate for people who play music voluntarily and for fun, but in public. Or who listen to a radio in public. They should come in to your workplace, note how many people are listening to each radio station, and then take it back to the radio stations in question.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Some of that stuff on the MCPS-PRS web site seems deliberately ambiguous.
For example "Where music is used in the workplace by individual employees or workers solely by means of Personal Portable Devices (such as MP3 players) with headphones PRS does not charge a licence fee"
Most obvious reading of this is that it is because they chose not to. Another reading could be that its because you don't need a licence. But it might involve a legal bill to be sure.
Similarly the bit about the TV licence is not the right question. Question might be " I have paid a licence fee to listen to broadcasts by the BBC. Does something in the copyright act or a court decision mean that a licence from you is needed for me to do so on a colleagues radio." They could answer "yes".
But I think they would then be putting themselves on the spot.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Well, I'm afraid that's exactly what they *are* saying, David.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Not on that page of their web site or in what john knoss quoted they are not; its all hedged about in weasle words. The stuff that is not ambiguous might only relate to playing recorded music. Why can't they just quote from the copyright act or say that on date XXX small company YYY was succesfully prosecuted in court ZZZ for allowing members of its workforce to listen to broadcast radio without having a PRS licence. I would have thought it would save them a lot of menacing phone calls. It is being done in a way that forces companies to either pay up or to call their bluff and risk a big legal bill if they fail.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
OK. Found it. This from a government web site.
"When recorded music or TV or radio broadcasts containing music are played in public the owners of the rights within that music are entitled to royalties. Generally, music is played in public if it is played anywhere other than in a private home. This ensures that the creators of these works receive fair rewards for their creativity."
The link was www.ipo.gov.uk/consult-musiclicencing-summary.doc. Link is broken but Google still lets you view in in HTML (search "copyright" "broadcast music")
So it seems to be UK law. No point in blaming PRS except for heavy handed behavoir.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Of course the other side of the coin is what about the composers/performers? Let's not kid ourselves - broadcasters, promoters, commercial venues etc. would not trouble themselves to recompense those who 'make' the music we listen to if they thought they could get away with it.
Copyright Law is about ensuring those whose intellectual property is used are paid for their efforts/talents in whatever field of creative activity be it music, writing, or imagery. Put yourself in their place, would you like to see your work exploited with no return to you?
The actual activities of the PRS however, as david_h says, can and should be described as heavy handed and intimidatory. It is a poor system but until something better can be invented we'll have to live with it.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by john knoss
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
I don't agree. If I made my living out of music, which at one time looked likely, I would not want an organisation supposedly acting on my behalf to be responsible for putting additional pressure on small businesses, criminalising normal human behaviour and putting jobs at risk.
It's plain wrong.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by ethical blend
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Mind you, if it means I don't have to have someone elses choice of music forced on me then on balance I might regard it as a good thing.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by David50
Re: PRS will kill music, thank God!
Just doing some idle research.
I'll post if I find anything useful. In the meantime . . .
In the U.S. librarians can use certain materials considered public domain.
There are various ways something is considered P.D.
The following are "Special Cases" (for public domain) ~
Created by a resident of Afghanistan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, San Marino, and published in one of these countries Not protected by US copyright law because they are not party to international copyright agreements.
So you might want to reconsider cutting your CD at that recording studio in Tehran. ;)
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by Ben Steen