Ok, so i've been playing the whistle for near on 10 years now, and have recently taken up the flute. I've come accross the saying ''tongue-ing'' and havent a notion what its all about!
I'm teaching myself (with the help of YouTube and you on thesession.org) so i'm not all that wise to the terms and techiniques!!
Tonguing is when you interrupt the airstream out of your lips by flicking your tongue into the gap. It's not used much by most Irish fluters, at least in comparison to how often classical fluters tongue. In Irish flute, it comes in handy sometimes as a way to pounce on a note. Some players use it to get a crisp attack on a note in the upper octave, to keep it from sounding in the lower octave.
As an extreme example, Kevin Crawford and others have used tonguing to play staccato triplets on flute. The debate still "rages" over whether that's acceptable in Irish trad music.
The thing to know is that it's entirely possible to play Irish flute without tonguing, relying instead on your fingers to articulate the notes with cuts, taps, rolls, crans, etc.
Will gave the answer.
Whistle articuations are the same on flute.
Since I already wrote this here goes;
Without the flute or whistle pronounce a syllable in rapid succession -
"da-da-da"
Your tongue comes back toward the palate & then forward. If you do the same thing (ton-gueing), while fingering a single note on the flute or whistle, the airflow is slightly interrupted. It sounds like 3 separate notes.
You could also get a slightly diferent triplet by going tic-a-da-ta. this really only works on long notes, or where you'd put crann. This is very close to what Kevin Crawford does.....Just be sure to go very fast about it. Think about a machine gun!
One point to clear up - as I understand tongueing on the flute, you are tonguing not with the tip of the tongue, but with the front edge of the top side of the tongue and you are not putting the tongue between the lips (can seriously disturb your lip position), but touching it to the roof of the mouth just behind the upper incisors (if you have any...). It is a bit like saying "t" while continuing to play the note.
You can also do the same while saying "k" (or "D" or "G", or...) using the back of the tongue for the same effect. Both done alternately make very fast articulation possible but you need to make sure that your tongue is still synchronised with your fingers.
Also, note that we do not want note - silence - note, what we do want is note - note with a separation, no more than that.
Where and how this fits into ITM is a matter for debate.
Yes, I would agree with that Crackpot, it's the front top of the tongue, and that should not be going past your teeth far less your lips. Simply say diddley and note what part of your tongue is touching what part of your palate. The interruption of air needed to say diddley is the same as you need to tongue a note.
I almost can't take it anymore. I've been so good on the 'shaping the tune' thread, and now another one about tonguing. What next? A thread on rough nuts and g strings? Are you all trying to innuendo me to death?
Another point to clear up: Tongueing (sp?) need not have anything to do with playing triplets. The tongued triplet is only one application of tonguing. Tonguing is a basic technique for accenting and articulating notes, used to a greater or lesser extent by almost all whistle players but, as I understand it (I do not play flute), less frequently by flute players, who prefer to articulate with a 'cough' from the diaphragm.
A few whistle players, notably Sean Ryan and the late Josie McDermott, make/made extensive use of tonguing, generally using tongued triplets in place of rolls. Sean Ryan often plays whole phrases using tonguing on almost every note and sometimes even tongues notes within a roll.
Tonguing n. a technique of playing a wind instrument by obstructing and uncovering the air passage through the lips with the tongue...
Easily abused and overused, as with recorder players and other mad folk, like James Galway... It can be a crutch, used clumsily to make up for poor articulation elsewhere, such as in your fingers, or it can be something that adds to the interest and variations you can playfully introduce into your playing. Here's another air issue ~ breathing, which we have to do, but why be mechanical about it, or gasp, when you can choose to use it in a similar fashion, to add interest, to reinforce the rhythm of the music, the phrasing, to help lift the tune and the feet of dancers...
Retentive tongue articualtion. That's the word(s) you're looking for.
Either you love it or hate it. I know Miko Russel used it - he taught it to me. And I'm a fiddler!!
Peter O'Connor
You wrote: "I'll try both ways and see which is more comfortable (or at least sounds better)"
I rather frown on this approach because I'd be concerned that you might find tounging easier in the short run, and just go with it -- and never try any other way.
The semi-technical lingo for how we fluters break off notes with our throats instead of our tounges is called "glottal stop". I'll hazard a guess that it is somehow derived from the same medical roots as the word "epiglottis", but that would only be speculation.
I've been playing flute for a while and have cut a note with my tongue exactly zero times ever -- so I'm hardly qualified to compare the two. But my first flute teacher was a stern taskmaster, and he ordered me against it, so I've only ever used these so-called "glottal stops". The technique is *exactly* like coughing.
Since I'm such a biased old curmudgeon on this, I'll preach that such "glottal" articulation is essential to Irish flute playing (aforementioned exceptions et al notwithstanding), so please give it more of an effort than just "trying both and deciding which is more comfortable".
To hear some great flute playing, try to get a hold of Catherine McEvoy's first CD (although she says it's out of print now ) and listen to her playing on O'Donnell's Hornpipe. Catherine herself told our class that she only ever "tounges" in slow airs, and even then hardly ever. Certainly *never* in dance tunes.
In addition to a "coughing" action, you can get that extra "punch" that Will talks about if you simultaneously add a diaphragm thrust into that "cough" as well. Such a combination sounds especially deadly on a bottom-D.
Congratulations on taking up the flute, and enjoy the lifelong journey!!!
You wrote: "I'll try both ways and see which is more comfortable (or at least sounds better)"
I would say try both and use both in your playing in a manner consistent with your own taste and the style you are trying to play in. And inform your taste with lots of listening. Get the Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 sets, 6 CDs).
And there is nothing stopping one from using the diaphgramatic pulse of air combined with any other articulation techniques. Though I tend to think of the pulse as an attribute of the main note, not the articulation. Tongueing (or glottaling) and finger ornaments combined can give a very strong (and traditional) effect too. Just don't use the same trick all the time.
I tend to think of the glottal stop as the way one says "Bu'er" instead of "butter" in some parts of the world. YMMV.
That's funny - I was learning that tune a few weeks ago off Catherine's CD. I could have sworn that she was tonguing in opening bars of O'Donnell's Hornpipe. Pronounced 'T..ing' sound as opposed to the softer 'cough' ??
My kids do music in school as well and the teacher tells them to tongue notes on the recorder. With the result that their whistle playing has been affected with that nasty habit !! Should be a law against it.
Q: On the hornpipe "O'Donnell's," it sounds like you're doing some tongued "tick-a-tah" triplets on a few notes. I rarely hear this kind of ornamentation being done by Irish flute players! Many Americans have the misconception that "real" Irish flute or whistle players never tongue any notes or ornaments; could you comment on this?
A: The sound on the track O'Donnell's is not actually tonguing. It is a sound made from the throat. The only way I can think of describing it is maybe the way a bird warbles. Josie McDermott used it on the flute and it was from him that I got the hornpipe O'Donnell's.
You can hear a similar technique used on a hornpipe on "Fluters of Old Erin" (flute, piccolo and whistle recording of the 1920's and 30's released on Viva Voce 002). There is a hornpipe called Dwyer's played by a William Cummins (1894-1966) who came from Roscrea, Co. Tipperary. He uses the same technique and it is a great piece of flute playing.
Thank you for all your advice, it is coming in very useful!!! and also, thanks for the attached atricles.
I'm sure many of you have heard this particular question many times (namely SWFL Fiddler) so i apologise for bending your ear on the matter!
i'm new to this site within the last week or so (and to trad music) so havent really had a chance to look through archived topics. I will, however, ... and then probably hang my head in shame at asking the same questions brought up numerous times in the past!!
Thank you again for all your help....and you never know, maybe see you at a session one day!
Never browndog! I represent the lovers of flatulence humor everywhere, the old men in the back of the pub, sniggering about "My Darling's a Sheep", etc.
Oh, and no worries Danielle! Please do! How else do I get to make such lame, juvenile jokes unless someone sets it up for me first?
But in reality, this is the essence of learning, the same question asked over and over. Nothing to feel badly about! The only stupid question is the one that's not asked, right?
''Tongue-ing''
''Tongue-ing''
Ok, so i've been playing the whistle for near on 10 years now, and have recently taken up the flute. I've come accross the saying ''tongue-ing'' and havent a notion what its all about!
I'm teaching myself (with the help of YouTube and you on thesession.org) so i'm not all that wise to the terms and techiniques!!
Any help would be of use!!
Thank you in advance
Danielle
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by She moved through the fair
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Tonguing is when you interrupt the airstream out of your lips by flicking your tongue into the gap. It's not used much by most Irish fluters, at least in comparison to how often classical fluters tongue. In Irish flute, it comes in handy sometimes as a way to pounce on a note. Some players use it to get a crisp attack on a note in the upper octave, to keep it from sounding in the lower octave.
As an extreme example, Kevin Crawford and others have used tonguing to play staccato triplets on flute. The debate still "rages" over whether that's acceptable in Irish trad music.
The thing to know is that it's entirely possible to play Irish flute without tonguing, relying instead on your fingers to articulate the notes with cuts, taps, rolls, crans, etc.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Will gave the answer.
Whistle articuations are the same on flute.
Since I already wrote this here goes;
Without the flute or whistle pronounce a syllable in rapid succession -
"da-da-da"
Your tongue comes back toward the palate & then forward. If you do the same thing (ton-gueing), while fingering a single note on the flute or whistle, the airflow is slightly interrupted. It sounds like 3 separate notes.
Joanie Madden favors ton-gueing.
Grey Larsen uses multipe ton-gueings.
Willie Clancy ton-gued on whistle . . .
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by Ben Steen
*
Whistle 'articulations' are played the same way on flute.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
You could also get a slightly diferent triplet by going tic-a-da-ta. this really only works on long notes, or where you'd put crann. This is very close to what Kevin Crawford does.....Just be sure to go very fast about it. Think about a machine gun!
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by irishflute93
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Thank you very much for your speedy replies. I'll try both ways and see which is more comfortable (or at least sounds better)!!
Danielle
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by She moved through the fair
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
One point to clear up - as I understand tongueing on the flute, you are tonguing not with the tip of the tongue, but with the front edge of the top side of the tongue and you are not putting the tongue between the lips (can seriously disturb your lip position), but touching it to the roof of the mouth just behind the upper incisors (if you have any...). It is a bit like saying "t" while continuing to play the note.
You can also do the same while saying "k" (or "D" or "G", or...) using the back of the tongue for the same effect. Both done alternately make very fast articulation possible but you need to make sure that your tongue is still synchronised with your fingers.
Also, note that we do not want note - silence - note, what we do want is note - note with a separation, no more than that.
Where and how this fits into ITM is a matter for debate.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Spot on Crackpot. I wasn't clear about that. In tonguing, the tongue just butts up against the teeth or soft palate, not the lips.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Yes, I would agree with that Crackpot, it's the front top of the tongue, and that should not be going past your teeth far less your lips. Simply say diddley and note what part of your tongue is touching what part of your palate. The interruption of air needed to say diddley is the same as you need to tongue a note.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by bogman
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Sorry, cross post there Will
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by bogman
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
I almost can't take it anymore. I've been so good on the 'shaping the tune' thread, and now another one about tonguing. What next? A thread on rough nuts and g strings? Are you all trying to innuendo me to death?
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Someone's got to do it, and apparently, it's always me. I'm cool with that.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Another point to clear up: Tongueing (sp?) need not have anything to do with playing triplets. The tongued triplet is only one application of tonguing. Tonguing is a basic technique for accenting and articulating notes, used to a greater or lesser extent by almost all whistle players but, as I understand it (I do not play flute), less frequently by flute players, who prefer to articulate with a 'cough' from the diaphragm.
A few whistle players, notably Sean Ryan and the late Josie McDermott, make/made extensive use of tonguing, generally using tongued triplets in place of rolls. Sean Ryan often plays whole phrases using tonguing on almost every note and sometimes even tongues notes within a roll.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Tongue-ing might also be related to a closed style on the pipes, meaning more staccato notes...
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by swisspiper
Tonguing
Discussion: Can someone lecture on the evolution of whistle playing?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Bob himself
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13911
Dictionary corner:
Tonguing n. a technique of playing a wind instrument by obstructing and uncovering the air passage through the lips with the tongue...
Easily abused and overused, as with recorder players and other mad folk, like James Galway... It can be a crutch, used clumsily to make up for poor articulation elsewhere, such as in your fingers, or it can be something that adds to the interest and variations you can playfully introduce into your playing. Here's another air issue ~ breathing, which we have to do, but why be mechanical about it, or gasp, when you can choose to use it in a similar fashion, to add interest, to reinforce the rhythm of the music, the phrasing, to help lift the tune and the feet of dancers...
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Retentive tongue articualtion. That's the word(s) you're looking for.
Either you love it or hate it. I know Miko Russel used it - he taught it to me. And I'm a fiddler!!
Peter O'Connor
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Peter O'Connor
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Hello Danielle,
) and listen to her playing on O'Donnell's Hornpipe. Catherine herself told our class that she only ever "tounges" in slow airs, and even then hardly ever. Certainly *never* in dance tunes.
You wrote: "I'll try both ways and see which is more comfortable (or at least sounds better)"
I rather frown on this approach because I'd be concerned that you might find tounging easier in the short run, and just go with it -- and never try any other way.
The semi-technical lingo for how we fluters break off notes with our throats instead of our tounges is called "glottal stop". I'll hazard a guess that it is somehow derived from the same medical roots as the word "epiglottis", but that would only be speculation.
I've been playing flute for a while and have cut a note with my tongue exactly zero times ever -- so I'm hardly qualified to compare the two. But my first flute teacher was a stern taskmaster, and he ordered me against it, so I've only ever used these so-called "glottal stops". The technique is *exactly* like coughing.
Since I'm such a biased old curmudgeon on this, I'll preach that such "glottal" articulation is essential to Irish flute playing (aforementioned exceptions et al notwithstanding), so please give it more of an effort than just "trying both and deciding which is more comfortable".
To hear some great flute playing, try to get a hold of Catherine McEvoy's first CD (although she says it's out of print now
In addition to a "coughing" action, you can get that extra "punch" that Will talks about if you simultaneously add a diaphragm thrust into that "cough" as well. Such a combination sounds especially deadly on a bottom-D.
Congratulations on taking up the flute, and enjoy the lifelong journey!!!
Brian
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by browndog
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Hello Daniell,
You wrote: "I'll try both ways and see which is more comfortable (or at least sounds better)"
I would say try both and use both in your playing in a manner consistent with your own taste and the style you are trying to play in. And inform your taste with lots of listening. Get the Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 sets, 6 CDs).
And there is nothing stopping one from using the diaphgramatic pulse of air combined with any other articulation techniques. Though I tend to think of the pulse as an attribute of the main note, not the articulation. Tongueing (or glottaling) and finger ornaments combined can give a very strong (and traditional) effect too. Just don't use the same trick all the time.
I tend to think of the glottal stop as the way one says "Bu'er" instead of "butter" in some parts of the world. YMMV.
Have fun with the flute.
Chris
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
That's funny - I was learning that tune a few weeks ago off Catherine's CD. I could have sworn that she was tonguing in opening bars of O'Donnell's Hornpipe. Pronounced 'T..ing' sound as opposed to the softer 'cough' ??
My kids do music in school as well and the teacher tells them to tongue notes on the recorder. With the result that their whistle playing has been affected with that nasty habit !! Should be a law against it.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Crackpot: "Bu'er" instead of "butter"?
I LIKE that one!
...and, twh, here is an excerpt from a very interesting article/interview on Brad Hurley's wooden flute website:
http://www.firescribble.net/flute/mcevoy.html
----------
Q: On the hornpipe "O'Donnell's," it sounds like you're doing some tongued "tick-a-tah" triplets on a few notes. I rarely hear this kind of ornamentation being done by Irish flute players! Many Americans have the misconception that "real" Irish flute or whistle players never tongue any notes or ornaments; could you comment on this?
A: The sound on the track O'Donnell's is not actually tonguing. It is a sound made from the throat. The only way I can think of describing it is maybe the way a bird warbles. Josie McDermott used it on the flute and it was from him that I got the hornpipe O'Donnell's.
You can hear a similar technique used on a hornpipe on "Fluters of Old Erin" (flute, piccolo and whistle recording of the 1920's and 30's released on Viva Voce 002). There is a hornpipe called Dwyer's played by a William Cummins (1894-1966) who came from Roscrea, Co. Tipperary. He uses the same technique and it is a great piece of flute playing.
--------
Happy fluting all...!!!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by browndog
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Well, there you go - she's good at it, isn't she! Very bright precise sound, she gets - lovely tune that too.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Thank you for all your advice, it is coming in very useful!!!
and also, thanks for the attached atricles.
I'm sure many of you have heard this particular question many times (namely SWFL Fiddler) so i apologise for bending your ear on the matter!
i'm new to this site within the last week or so (and to trad music) so havent really had a chance to look through archived topics. I will, however, ... and then probably hang my head in shame at asking the same questions brought up numerous times in the past!!
Thank you again for all your help....and you never know, maybe see you at a session one day!
Danielle
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by She moved through the fair
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
*looks at title of thread*
*reads thread*
Man, that's false advertising!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by hotsauce
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Thank you hotsauce, I'm glad I'm not the only one.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Hi Danielle: Dontcha be givin' no 'pologies to "SWFL Fiddler"! Getting his mind back up onto the curb is his own responsibility!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by browndog
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Never browndog! I represent the lovers of flatulence humor everywhere, the old men in the back of the pub, sniggering about "My Darling's a Sheep", etc.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Oh, and no worries Danielle! Please do! How else do I get to make such lame, juvenile jokes unless someone sets it up for me first?
But in reality, this is the essence of learning, the same question asked over and over. Nothing to feel badly about! The only stupid question is the one that's not asked, right?
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
''Tongue-in-cheek''
Probably not so much whether the question is stupid or not. I am more skeptical of some responses. Speaking of learning
;).
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
HA HA! Yes random notes, critical thinking and weighing of responses, you'll get plenty of practice doing that on this site!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
SWFL Fiddler...they may be lame... but they made me laugh... ''my darling's a sheep'' shall stay with me forever ... haha !!!!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by She moved through the fair
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Hey Will CPT - What are " cuts, taps, rolls, crans, etc." ? I can only imagine what cuts are.
C. Nicolas
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by C. Nicolas
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
C. Nicholas, go to Brother Steve's Tin Whistle site for all you need to know about all the twiddly bits on whistle and flute: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
He also covers use of the tongue and glottal stops.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Thanks Will CPT, that's a really nice site.
C. Nicolas
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by C. Nicolas
Re: ''Tongue-ing''
Your welcome. Excellent site. And Bro Steve is a member here on the mustard board, too, so you can always pose a question for him.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by Will Harmon