This is a tie-in from Jeremy's 'drink' thread. Well, at least I'm trying to make it one . This may have been covered already, so feel free to point this out!
I moved to Dallas two years ago (feel free to send condolences) and there were only beginners' sessions - one at Jeremy's house and one at a coffee house. I approached the owner of a local pub and asked about starting an 'advanced' session there. His said I could, but only if I promised to oust anyone showing up in chainmail or giving massages on tables, or drinking tea from mugs they brought in on their belts, that kind of thing. I was astounded; it was as though he warned me that monkeys might swarm in and attack the bar. Apparently, there used to be a session at that pub that was closed for this reason (fantasy-types overtaking the bar and scaring the 'normal' crowd... not the monkeys).
Over time, it seemed like many of the people who came to listen - and play - were in fact involved in that lifestyle. The pub where we played has two rooms... on session nights, the other room would fill up with the normal crowd: office types on happy hour, students, retired alcoholics, singles groups. Our room would fill with people who it turns out - after some conversation - were involved in one way or another with ren-faires or SCMA or fairie-support groups or whatever.
I no longer have strong feelings about this apparent association although I did at the time. I'm not trying to say anything negative about various fantasy groups and whatever they're into. But everywhere else I've played it seemed like there wasn't such an obvious distinction between they types of people who were into trad and those that were not.
I'd like to know if this phenonema appears in other areas with other sessions... and how do people feel about this?
I was a member of the SCA when it first started out in the West Bay Area, crossing over from Bezerkley (and there, now you know exactly how old I am). It was so much fun. We didn't take a thing seriously. One of the guys even gave himself a personae of "Fred of Numenor." "Erhardt" specialized in air guitar. We made up an ever increasingly convoluted story to explain the appearance of a Chinese woman (me) in the midst of our motley crew. We made up the most ridiculous Dungeon and Dragon games ever. We made jokes about the fact that SCAers call everyone "milord" and "milady" -- where were the peasants for God's sake? We decided to be milord and milady dirt farmers.
Gradually, though, we were overtaken by people who took it all rather seriously. It was like real life was slowly being replaced by this fantasy life thing. We were amazed and dismayed. Weeeeeiiiiirrrrd. I left when a new member berated me at a party that I couldn't be Chinese and be in the SCA, I had to pretend to be English or French or something.
To this day, I look at folk involved in the whole SCA Ren Faire thing askance. Terrible of me, but I can't help it.
Trad players don't have a lot of time for ren fair silliness. Some of the reasons may be historical - read any history of Elizabethan Ireland, for instance - but I suspect mainly the reason is that the ren fair stuff is perceived by the rather tough-minded majority of of tradders, especiall older Irish or Irish immigrant tradders, as little more than self-indulgent posturing by people who live in their heads too much.
Texas is a very special place. For many reasons. One reason is that it attracts a disproportionate number of rennies who take themselves way, way too seriously. I think one of the reasons is that much of Texas is so fughing hot and ugly that people are dying to escape, even to the Realm of Lala. Plus, what else are free-spirited, geeks going to do in Dallas? It's a cultural wasteland filled with people who have too much money.
The accountants by day / viking lord by night, rennies are the worst. They tend to take themselves way seriously. They're usually terrible at normal social interaction so they use the whole ren fair schtick as a crutch. The full time rennies are kindof' like gypsies, which alright, in a way.
We don't have a lot of rennies here. I moved here and started slagging rennies and asking if they wrecked the sessions and people had no idea what I was talking about. There is a ren fair here but the majority of those involved just do it for fun. Some of the best musicians around here have done lots of ren fair gigs. They don't anymore because they have better paying gigs and real lives that prohibit the full-time ren gigs. Full time ren gigs can be pretty good because you're guaranteed a way to live off of your music for a while. I wouldn't ever do it because my wife and I have an agreement that if I do she can kick my a$$.
It's different than Texas. Texas is weird. People around here don't have to pretend that they live in the woods in poverty. They can go about 45 minutes out of town and do it for real. Complete with corrupt sheriffs and violent feuds. What fun!
I think everywhere you go there are going to be groups of people who think they know what "Celtic" music is all about and decide that they can join in. Here we have hippies. We've gotten such a reputation for being trad-b!tches, though, that we don't get pestered too much. Right now, I always get the parents who think it's great to bring their kid right up to the session and let the kid tug on my instrument in the middle of a set. That's just rude. I'm glad they can bring the kid in the pub, but keep him on a leash!
That link is hilarious. The Onion is one of America's greatest cultural achievements.
So, you're wondering what a renfaire is all about? Here is a link to one of the worst renfaires ever! Remember, that when we have any Irish Music gathering in Texas, these people are EVERYWHERE!
My band and I play a few weekends at a ren faire each summer, and I have to say we've had the most engaging crowds there, and met some very interesting, funny, kind people. Not to mention some fantastic musicians! True, some 'rennies' take it all too seriously, but one could say the same thing about parking checkers, corporate types, trad musicians...
I think it's lovely when people get involved in an activity that takes knowledge and skill of any sort, even if it's not one I personally have an interest in.
Have just caught this post and have checked out that website. Bizarre barely covers it (especially in the pink, fat dude's case). They probably dress up as Klingons and Vulcans every other weekend. (Shakespear is always better in the original Klingon).
No worse than the Sealed Knot over here, I suppose, running around pretending to be Cavaliers and Roundheads ...and your own Civil War re-enactors.
Thanks to everyone for your explanations and links to renfair, for the benefit of us on the other side of the pond. On loking at the "Onion" link it seems evident to me that renfair has crossed the Atlantic as an emasculated version of English morris dancing festivals
Zina, I suppose it is just possible that someone could have hand-painted over an actually tapestry, in which case it could really be described as a hand-painted tapestry!
Btw, I've had experience that you've got to be careful with the word "oxymoron". Some years ago I was in discussion with a guy who was under the genuine impression that it meant a particularly stupid cow (sic); worse, he thought it was being applied to him personally... It took some careful and polite explanation to defuse the situation!
Trevor
I met my husband at an SCA party. I was looking to join up and learn to sew costumes with a master tailor or something. He was just with a friend. I never did join--got to involved in learning Irish music actually and didn't have the time. But I do go to the Ren Faire at least once a summer, in costume. Actually, my friend and I played our harps there 2 summers ago for a few weekends. Pretty ironic since Queen Elizabeth vowed to burn all Irish harps and harpers were made illegal or something like that. But it was tons of fun (and hard work) And there are a couple of bands who are really good and fun who play Irish music at the faire every year--The Arcona Reel Band and Fire in the Glen.
I feel so sheltered...I've never even run into these people! And I live just miles from where they hold a huge renaissance fair every August. Do these people not live in NY, or am I just not noticing them. You'd never see anything like this in my area. Maybe I need to venture out of the Tri-state area more often!
Trevor wrote:
"...it seems evident to me that renfair has crossed the Atlantic as an emasculated version of English morris dancing festivals."
Well, as you might know, the English morris dancing festivals have crossed the Atlantic, too. As a morriser myself, I've been to quite a few. Now, it may be different in the Northeast, where my team and I tend to do most of our performing, but at these gatherings it seems you're as likely to get Irish trad music enthusiasts than dyed-in-the-wool Renfair/SCAers (among the participants that is -- not counting the audience). And that's not to suggest the two are mutually exclusive interests!
Trad and renfaire
Trad and renfaire
This is a tie-in from Jeremy's 'drink' thread. Well, at least I'm trying to make it one
. This may have been covered already, so feel free to point this out!
I moved to Dallas two years ago (feel free to send condolences) and there were only beginners' sessions - one at Jeremy's house and one at a coffee house. I approached the owner of a local pub and asked about starting an 'advanced' session there. His said I could, but only if I promised to oust anyone showing up in chainmail or giving massages on tables, or drinking tea from mugs they brought in on their belts, that kind of thing. I was astounded; it was as though he warned me that monkeys might swarm in and attack the bar. Apparently, there used to be a session at that pub that was closed for this reason (fantasy-types overtaking the bar and scaring the 'normal' crowd... not the monkeys).
Over time, it seemed like many of the people who came to listen - and play - were in fact involved in that lifestyle. The pub where we played has two rooms... on session nights, the other room would fill up with the normal crowd: office types on happy hour, students, retired alcoholics, singles groups. Our room would fill with people who it turns out - after some conversation - were involved in one way or another with ren-faires or SCMA or fairie-support groups or whatever.
I no longer have strong feelings about this apparent association although I did at the time. I'm not trying to say anything negative about various fantasy groups and whatever they're into. But everywhere else I've played it seemed like there wasn't such an obvious distinction between they types of people who were into trad and those that were not.
I'd like to know if this phenonema appears in other areas with other sessions... and how do people feel about this?
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by glenn
Re: Trad and renfaire
I was a member of the SCA when it first started out in the West Bay Area, crossing over from Bezerkley (and there, now you know exactly how old I am). It was so much fun. We didn't take a thing seriously. One of the guys even gave himself a personae of "Fred of Numenor." "Erhardt" specialized in air guitar. We made up an ever increasingly convoluted story to explain the appearance of a Chinese woman (me) in the midst of our motley crew. We made up the most ridiculous Dungeon and Dragon games ever. We made jokes about the fact that SCAers call everyone "milord" and "milady" -- where were the peasants for God's sake? We decided to be milord and milady dirt farmers.
Gradually, though, we were overtaken by people who took it all rather seriously. It was like real life was slowly being replaced by this fantasy life thing. We were amazed and dismayed. Weeeeeiiiiirrrrd. I left when a new member berated me at a party that I couldn't be Chinese and be in the SCA, I had to pretend to be English or French or something.
To this day, I look at folk involved in the whole SCA Ren Faire thing askance. Terrible of me, but I can't help it.
Zina
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Trad and renfaire
Trad players don't have a lot of time for ren fair silliness. Some of the reasons may be historical - read any history of Elizabethan Ireland, for instance - but I suspect mainly the reason is that the ren fair stuff is perceived by the rather tough-minded majority of of tradders, especiall older Irish or Irish immigrant tradders, as little more than self-indulgent posturing by people who live in their heads too much.
Check this out for a laugh:
http://www.theonion.com/onion3119/renfair.html
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Hanley
Re: Trad and renfaire
Oh my...reminds me of that book, The Lottery.....
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by JMH
Re: Trad and renfaire
I had forgotten the nightmare, Glenn. Thanks.
Texas is a very special place. For many reasons. One reason is that it attracts a disproportionate number of rennies who take themselves way, way too seriously. I think one of the reasons is that much of Texas is so fughing hot and ugly that people are dying to escape, even to the Realm of Lala. Plus, what else are free-spirited, geeks going to do in Dallas? It's a cultural wasteland filled with people who have too much money.
The accountants by day / viking lord by night, rennies are the worst. They tend to take themselves way seriously. They're usually terrible at normal social interaction so they use the whole ren fair schtick as a crutch. The full time rennies are kindof' like gypsies, which alright, in a way.
We don't have a lot of rennies here. I moved here and started slagging rennies and asking if they wrecked the sessions and people had no idea what I was talking about. There is a ren fair here but the majority of those involved just do it for fun. Some of the best musicians around here have done lots of ren fair gigs. They don't anymore because they have better paying gigs and real lives that prohibit the full-time ren gigs. Full time ren gigs can be pretty good because you're guaranteed a way to live off of your music for a while. I wouldn't ever do it because my wife and I have an agreement that if I do she can kick my a$$.
It's different than Texas. Texas is weird. People around here don't have to pretend that they live in the woods in poverty. They can go about 45 minutes out of town and do it for real. Complete with corrupt sheriffs and violent feuds. What fun!
I think everywhere you go there are going to be groups of people who think they know what "Celtic" music is all about and decide that they can join in. Here we have hippies. We've gotten such a reputation for being trad-b!tches, though, that we don't get pestered too much. Right now, I always get the parents who think it's great to bring their kid right up to the session and let the kid tug on my instrument in the middle of a set. That's just rude. I'm glad they can bring the kid in the pub, but keep him on a leash!
That link is hilarious. The Onion is one of America's greatest cultural achievements.
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by jerball
Re: Trad and renfaire
Definitely. My all time favorite Onion story lead: "Do you like keeping boxes of sh*t around the house? Own a cat!"
(P.S. I own two cats and love them past bearing by others.)
Favorite Onion headline: "Gene Wilder in terrible, terrible movie!"
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
the other greatest cultural achievement: The Simpsons
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Trad and renfaire
What, in the name of Jayzus, is this discussion about?
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by richrua
Re: Trad and renfaire
So, you're wondering what a renfaire is all about? Here is a link to one of the worst renfaires ever! Remember, that when we have any Irish Music gathering in Texas, these people are EVERYWHERE!
http://ryleh.freeservers.com/hwk1.htm
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Caoimghgin
Re: Trad and renfaire
Wow I'm no slim-jim myself but these people are all wicked fat, Maybe they should lay of the mutton & ale...
Re: The Onion
They had another cat one
"Independant minded cat sh*ts outside of the box"
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: Trad and renfaire
My god. Hell is in Texas. As a textiles type, i particularly liked the reference to a "hand-painted tapestry" -- oxymoron alert!
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Counterpoint
My band and I play a few weekends at a ren faire each summer, and I have to say we've had the most engaging crowds there, and met some very interesting, funny, kind people. Not to mention some fantastic musicians! True, some 'rennies' take it all too seriously, but one could say the same thing about parking checkers, corporate types, trad musicians...
I think it's lovely when people get involved in an activity that takes knowledge and skill of any sort, even if it's not one I personally have an interest in.
T
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Trinil
Re: Trad and renfaire
Have just caught this post and have checked out that website. Bizarre barely covers it (especially in the pink, fat dude's case). They probably dress up as Klingons and Vulcans every other weekend. (Shakespear is always better in the original Klingon).
No worse than the Sealed Knot over here, I suppose, running around pretending to be Cavaliers and Roundheads ...and your own Civil War re-enactors.
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Trad and renfaire
Thanks to everyone for your explanations and links to renfair, for the benefit of us on the other side of the pond. On loking at the "Onion" link it seems evident to me that renfair has crossed the Atlantic as an emasculated version of English morris dancing festivals
Trevor
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Trad and renfaire
Zina, I suppose it is just possible that someone could have hand-painted over an actually tapestry, in which case it could really be described as a hand-painted tapestry!
Btw, I've had experience that you've got to be careful with the word "oxymoron". Some years ago I was in discussion with a guy who was under the genuine impression that it meant a particularly stupid cow (sic); worse, he thought it was being applied to him personally... It took some careful and polite explanation to defuse the situation!
Trevor
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Trad and renfaire
I met my husband at an SCA party. I was looking to join up and learn to sew costumes with a master tailor or something. He was just with a friend. I never did join--got to involved in learning Irish music actually and didn't have the time. But I do go to the Ren Faire at least once a summer, in costume. Actually, my friend and I played our harps there 2 summers ago for a few weekends. Pretty ironic since Queen Elizabeth vowed to burn all Irish harps and harpers were made illegal or something like that. But it was tons of fun (and hard work) And there are a couple of bands who are really good and fun who play Irish music at the faire every year--The Arcona Reel Band and Fire in the Glen.
# Posted on August 1st 2003 by Andee
Re: Trad and renfaire
I feel so sheltered...I've never even run into these people! And I live just miles from where they hold a huge renaissance fair every August. Do these people not live in NY, or am I just not noticing them. You'd never see anything like this in my area. Maybe I need to venture out of the Tri-state area more often!
# Posted on August 2nd 2003 by irishfiddler32
Re: Trad and renfaire
Trevor wrote:
"...it seems evident to me that renfair has crossed the Atlantic as an emasculated version of English morris dancing festivals."
Well, as you might know, the English morris dancing festivals have crossed the Atlantic, too. As a morriser myself, I've been to quite a few. Now, it may be different in the Northeast, where my team and I tend to do most of our performing, but at these gatherings it seems you're as likely to get Irish trad music enthusiasts than dyed-in-the-wool Renfair/SCAers (among the participants that is -- not counting the audience). And that's not to suggest the two are mutually exclusive interests!
# Posted on August 4th 2003 by sts