so i've heard that even a wooden Boehm (classical) flute sounds very different from the simple system Irish flutes used in ITM. i'm just wondering why that is? is it related to the different lengths / wall thickness? or the key / tone hole placement? or something else entirely?
Boehm flutes have a cylindrical body, while the headjoint has a tapered (nominally parabolic) profile.
Irish flutes has a cylindrical headjoint, and a tapered, conical body.
So, blame it in part on physics.
In addition, the classical player uses different techniques. An Irish flute player might blow down into the headjoint differently, and cover a different amount of the embouchure hole with their lips. The shape and size of the hole is also different from the modern-cut Boehm headjoint.
An Irish player might also be striving for a different tone, and types of articulation (glottal stops in place of tonguing), finger vibrato rather than breath/throat vibrato,.
Despite the usual differences, there are a number of Irish flute players who do a good job on Boehm flutes (wood, and even silver). Billy Clifford, Sean Moloney, Sharon Creasey, Joanie Madden, etc.
You can listen to some samples at the Worldtrad.org website from the Wooden Flute Obsession CDs.
Everything Kevin said there... Both brilliant, but different. I play both.
Shape (especially size and position of holes) makes much more difference than material and the player makes the most difference of all. The Abell flute, by the way, is the Rolls Royce of wooden Boehm flutes. Absolutely gorgeous. I've only ever seen one in the flesh.
If you want to play stuff other than trad, use lots of weird keys (e.g. f# major...), be seriously loud _and_ quiet, etc then get a Boehm. Otherwise, get a simple system flute of good quality and play trad on it mainly in the keys of G, A and D or associated other minors/modes.
And do not even think of being a flute player without getting the wooden flute obsession CDs - all three sets, 6CDs in total. If you own no other flute CDs then still get these.
Rtarnell et all,
Just a few notes I'd like to add.
I think it comes down to three things. I'm not convinced about material or the shape of the tube.
1. Nobody mentions that style has a big part to do with this. Joanie Madden and Noel Rice were never classically trained (as well as some of the others that kkrell mentions. If you put a classical trained musician on a wooden simple system flute they're still going to sound a classical style.
2. Another side of this (relating to #1 above) no one seems to talk about is the shape of the throat while playing. This is closely related to singing techniques used (chest voice/ head voice).
3. From an acoustics prospective, It all comes down to harmonics. I can't accurately remember one of the studies done but it was to the effect of wooden simple flutes generate more odd harmonics than even harmonics and vise versa for silver Boehm system flutes. Also possibly venting being a different between the two types of flutes. Chormatic and larger toneholes, placement based on a calculate formula that was used to figure out fret placement on guitars compared to Diatonic and smaller toneholes, placement somewhat restricted by the size of ones hand and I want to say hole placement was not originally based on calculation but experimentation. Now it seems that makers have formulas to get close enough then make fine adjustments for better tuning.
These are factors that I Believe make the 2 flute type sound different. But as mentioned above, those silver fluters sound really good and play just as well as the wooden fluters do.
My 2 cents. A good question which I've been looking in to here and there when time permits.
I think the bad rep classical flute players get when playing ITM is probably due to being too proud to learn the idioms and styles of _this_ music. Case in point being James Galway - brilliant flute player, as Irish as they come, but not an ITM flute player. And it really doesn't sound either authentic or particularly nice when he tries to play trad in a classical style. It can be ok, but tends to sound corny.
Hard to turn off a hard-won vibrato sometimes. Or a patiently learnt bright full tone. And some of the things you have to do in trad are "wrong" for many classical teachers, e.g. lifting your finger significantly off the holes so that ornaments get crisper. Cover more of the embouchure hole for a "darker" sound. etc.
That said, some people learn to play and be comfortable playing both. You just have to remember that the trad is not just a set of trivially simple tunes to be played in a condescending manner.
Also, a lot of traditional flute players have a bit of a chip on their shoulder too. And some things are just plain wrong, e.g. playing resting the head on your shoulder - you can do it, but why would you want to? (And secretly they all want to be able to play flight of the bumblebee too...)
Interestingly, most of what I've said could equally be applied to modern flute players trying to play Baroque music - something they are _supposed_ to be able to do!
It's the player/style more than the flute IMHO. Silver gives you more options but I love the feel of my wooden in my hands and I'm only playing ITRAD with it. Actually mine isn't wood but is acetal resin but that's a different subject all together.
wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
hello,
so i've heard that even a wooden Boehm (classical) flute sounds very different from the simple system Irish flutes used in ITM. i'm just wondering why that is? is it related to the different lengths / wall thickness? or the key / tone hole placement? or something else entirely?
thanks
(btw, this is the sort of thing i'm talking about: http://www.abellflute.com/theabellflute.html)
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by rtarnell
Re: wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
Boehm flutes have a cylindrical body, while the headjoint has a tapered (nominally parabolic) profile.
Irish flutes has a cylindrical headjoint, and a tapered, conical body.
So, blame it in part on physics.
In addition, the classical player uses different techniques. An Irish flute player might blow down into the headjoint differently, and cover a different amount of the embouchure hole with their lips. The shape and size of the hole is also different from the modern-cut Boehm headjoint.
An Irish player might also be striving for a different tone, and types of articulation (glottal stops in place of tonguing), finger vibrato rather than breath/throat vibrato,.
Despite the usual differences, there are a number of Irish flute players who do a good job on Boehm flutes (wood, and even silver). Billy Clifford, Sean Moloney, Sharon Creasey, Joanie Madden, etc.
You can listen to some samples at the Worldtrad.org website from the Wooden Flute Obsession CDs.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by kkrell
Re: wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
Everything Kevin said there... Both brilliant, but different. I play both.
Shape (especially size and position of holes) makes much more difference than material and the player makes the most difference of all. The Abell flute, by the way, is the Rolls Royce of wooden Boehm flutes. Absolutely gorgeous. I've only ever seen one in the flesh.
If you want to play stuff other than trad, use lots of weird keys (e.g. f# major...), be seriously loud _and_ quiet, etc then get a Boehm. Otherwise, get a simple system flute of good quality and play trad on it mainly in the keys of G, A and D or associated other minors/modes.
And do not even think of being a flute player without getting the wooden flute obsession CDs - all three sets, 6CDs in total. If you own no other flute CDs then still get these.
Chris
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
F#--that's all I have to add. Check it out.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by InSearchofCraic
Re: wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
Rtarnell et all,
Just a few notes I'd like to add.
I think it comes down to three things. I'm not convinced about material or the shape of the tube.
1. Nobody mentions that style has a big part to do with this. Joanie Madden and Noel Rice were never classically trained (as well as some of the others that kkrell mentions. If you put a classical trained musician on a wooden simple system flute they're still going to sound a classical style.
2. Another side of this (relating to #1 above) no one seems to talk about is the shape of the throat while playing. This is closely related to singing techniques used (chest voice/ head voice).
3. From an acoustics prospective, It all comes down to harmonics. I can't accurately remember one of the studies done but it was to the effect of wooden simple flutes generate more odd harmonics than even harmonics and vise versa for silver Boehm system flutes. Also possibly venting being a different between the two types of flutes. Chormatic and larger toneholes, placement based on a calculate formula that was used to figure out fret placement on guitars compared to Diatonic and smaller toneholes, placement somewhat restricted by the size of ones hand and I want to say hole placement was not originally based on calculation but experimentation. Now it seems that makers have formulas to get close enough then make fine adjustments for better tuning.
These are factors that I Believe make the 2 flute type sound different. But as mentioned above, those silver fluters sound really good and play just as well as the wooden fluters do.
My 2 cents. A good question which I've been looking in to here and there when time permits.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by madfluter
Re: wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
I think the bad rep classical flute players get when playing ITM is probably due to being too proud to learn the idioms and styles of _this_ music. Case in point being James Galway - brilliant flute player, as Irish as they come, but not an ITM flute player. And it really doesn't sound either authentic or particularly nice when he tries to play trad in a classical style. It can be ok, but tends to sound corny.
Hard to turn off a hard-won vibrato sometimes. Or a patiently learnt bright full tone. And some of the things you have to do in trad are "wrong" for many classical teachers, e.g. lifting your finger significantly off the holes so that ornaments get crisper. Cover more of the embouchure hole for a "darker" sound. etc.
That said, some people learn to play and be comfortable playing both. You just have to remember that the trad is not just a set of trivially simple tunes to be played in a condescending manner.
Also, a lot of traditional flute players have a bit of a chip on their shoulder too. And some things are just plain wrong, e.g. playing resting the head on your shoulder - you can do it, but why would you want to? (And secretly they all want to be able to play flight of the bumblebee too...)
Interestingly, most of what I've said could equally be applied to modern flute players trying to play Baroque music - something they are _supposed_ to be able to do!
Like I said - players make the most difference...
Chris.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: wooden Boehm flute vs. Irish flute
It's the player/style more than the flute IMHO. Silver gives you more options but I love the feel of my wooden in my hands and I'm only playing ITRAD with it. Actually mine isn't wood but is acetal resin but that's a different subject all together.
# Posted on October 27th 2008 by GaelicHarp