In view of the recent ears vs dots and slow down or not slow down controversies that continue to rage on this board I'd just like to tell everyone about a great session of music I went to recently...
Nearly everyone was actually reading from the dots, but despite that the standard was pretty high I'd say. There was even some sort of person in charge who decided how fast or slow everything should be played. And it sort of worked - everyone seemed able to keep up the whole time. Though I did notice that some players sat out during some tunes or sometimes for parts of tunes. But it was really enjoyable. I suppose it helped that everyone seemed to know in advance what was going to be played - even the non-players could get a list of the tunes when they arrived.
It's just a pity that ticket prices for orchestral concerts can be so high these days... Ah well
Glad you enjoyed it, but is it really a session when there is a list of tunes, sheet music and a structure like that? Sounds like a semi informal performance but I'm not knocking it is folk enjoyed it, just doubting if it could be called session. Swapping a few tunes is one thing but knowing what's to be played would take all the fun out of it for me.
I know you're joking but I've actually been to a session that wasn't too very different than what you describe! A friend and I went in with the intention of listening to a few tunes and joining in for a few. I had my whistle in my back pocket. we got in to the place and saw music stands everywhere. A few people were sitting with instruments and everyone was stairing at us. I smiled and asked when the session started. I got a mumbled reply and a look like 'why the f### do you wanna know! We hung around for the first tune and split. No one even cracked a smile!
Indeed, there once was a ......"session".....somewhat like that in Barrie, Ontario [of all places]....to call it a session would be overstating it....there were music stands, a list of tunes and even a concert master...or, in this case, mistress....the only thing lacking was a conductor's baton. But the mistress of ceremonies made ample use of her waving bow.....it was gruesome. ;) One night of that was enough.
ah Patk it was in my "salad days"...and, really, I was ever hopeful [i'm a fairly optomistic person by and large altho not so much these days...] that Irish music could be played anywhere north of the 401 with any degree of legitimacy...alas it was not to be....and, as you perhaps are rightly implying, I was a right eejit for thinking anything cultural could take place in Barrie.
Yes Lissagriffin, but could the audience sip pints and chat through the dull bits? Leaving aside the pub analogy, could the audience members sip tea and chat through the dull bits: could little kids come tearing through, do a noisy circuit of all the musicians, then sprawl on the floor?
Don't come down too hard on the music stand people. Many of us are stumbling around Trad without a clue. Go read some of the more thoughtful observations on the `hobbyist' thread.
Was just talking about this with a friend after last night's session. He was lamenting a sheet music addiction of another player he knows, feeling like her being tethered to the dots was holding her playing back.
I suspect what ruffles feathers here for some is that we run into people who say they want to play this music and participate in sessions. But they resist learning and playing this music the way other trad musicians learn and play it--by ear, by immersion. They want to "be like Mike" without doing what Mike does.
It's that old saw. If you want to play like Tommy Peoples, don't copy Tommy Peoples, do what he did (i.e., learn tunes from the old timers in the North, session in Dublin, move to Clare, etc.). On a lighter scale, if you want to play in sessions, don't just copy the music, but do what good session players do--develop and trust your ears, play with people.
lisagriffin what were the tunes they played? {I like a good brass section.}
I have been to symphony where you experience all the dance & emotion of the music. The players are not merely counting the bars, Some are not even looking at the score. When this happens the orchestra is very familiar with their fellow musicians & love the music (tunes) they are playing. Those concerts are worth the admission.
You are on to something. When music is 'played' it is good. Be playful.
So basically, a good orchestra is just a session that's too big for its own good, so big it needs a metronome at the front to keep everyone together. LOL. Maybe if they realized that timpani aren't just for sound effects in the 1812 Overture and could be used to keep the beat, they wouldn't need the person in the penguin suit up front....
Now then, could one not argue that the bodhran is really a timpani in miniature? I think one could, since it's played in a sense exactly the same way....but just the opposite.
I had an idea like that comparing uilleann pipes & pipe organs.
You know I briefly worked for someone who was building a pipe organ for the university. It was fun.
Been to seshes like that - they stop playing as soon as anyone starts improvising or playing counter-melodies as it is different to what is in front of them.
Dots are fine but reliance on them stifles a living tradition.
Bren, Ah dinna think at a-body'll unerstan fit ye mean by piece... They micht e'en misconstrue't richt wrang if yer telt tae "haud yer piece" intead o' "haud yer peace"
Haw see youse 2 - geezabrek ih? Youse urny the on'y wans thit kin gee it laldy wi the glesga patter. Boarn in shuttleston in broat up in 'e drum a hink av goat 'e right pedigree, n'at know? Ma brer styes in Galashiels in 'e Borders in up untae jist a wee while back thon patter wis is incomprehensible is youse Buchan punters. Ah'm no sure how they aw talk noo bit twinty years ago it wis aw thon kerry oan, probly lit Ayberdeen people:
furst yin: Fa's the caalest?
ither yin: No me, ahm wearin the coatie ah goat oot the sna ploo. Thoan ither dunderheid didnae ken it wis gonnae get caaller be the moarn's moarn.
Scotland, of course, consists of very hard but nonetheless extractable sugar, overlaid with a hard surface in demure colours to be easier on the eye of Queen Victoria and also to prevent her from digging up great chunks and eating it, as she was somewhat overweight.
The mountains were reduced to stumps from Himalayan dimensions not by the glaciers, but by the appetite of the Scots.
Nicholas - hiv ye been oan the sugar-olly watter again? If wees yins hae sic muckle appetites, yid be'er watch oot cos we're gonnae cum an eat England an a'.....
England by contrast, never really had any mountains to speak of, apart from a small county which had originally been part of Wales (Cymru) called Cumbria (which means Cymru anyway, so it isn't really English.) Shortly after the Angles and Saxons arrived, they decided that mountains weren't very practical and not in keeping with their ultimate projected ideal of mock-tudor suburbia, out of town shopping malls and boutiques selling ancestor-worship memoribilia to their ancient Indo-european past such as Lager (Aryan)and Curries (Indic), so they decided to have them all demolished to create more lebensraum. This process was exacerbated during Danelaw, one of the unfortunate consequences of which was Hull. And Belgium.
Belgium of course is not in England, but it could have been, anytime, but they decided it was important that must remain culturally distinct, being Belgian-speakers, and wished to retain forever with pride the title as the most Boring Place on the Planet. However everyone knows that ithe title should go to England but never does, but for the fact that SE England, and in particular SE London, is host to many of the finest Irish traditional music sessio....NURSE! NURSE!
Morris tunes? English music?
GAAahhh...
[Right hand convulsively twitches at left upper chest area....Breathing becomes laboured then shallow, followed by one major exhalation, then nothing]
Looks down on hospital theatre scene. Suddenly remembers RonP owes him a pint. Goes back down into corporeal entity.
Some things you can't buy....
Not one for the purists?
Not one for the purists?
In view of the recent ears vs dots and slow down or not slow down controversies that continue to rage on this board I'd just like to tell everyone about a great session of music I went to recently...
Nearly everyone was actually reading from the dots, but despite that the standard was pretty high I'd say. There was even some sort of person in charge who decided how fast or slow everything should be played. And it sort of worked - everyone seemed able to keep up the whole time. Though I did notice that some players sat out during some tunes or sometimes for parts of tunes. But it was really enjoyable. I suppose it helped that everyone seemed to know in advance what was going to be played - even the non-players could get a list of the tunes when they arrived.
It's just a pity that ticket prices for orchestral concerts can be so high these days... Ah well
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Lissagriffin
Re: Not one for the purists?
Ha, ha...good one! I fell for it hook, line, and sinker right up to the very end.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Quarter Irish
Re: Not one for the purists?
Glad you enjoyed it, but is it really a session when there is a list of tunes, sheet music and a structure like that? Sounds like a semi informal performance but I'm not knocking it is folk enjoyed it, just doubting if it could be called session. Swapping a few tunes is one thing but knowing what's to be played would take all the fun out of it for me.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Not one for the purists?
Woops, I'll get my coat.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Not one for the purists?
I know you're joking but I've actually been to a session that wasn't too very different than what you describe! A friend and I went in with the intention of listening to a few tunes and joining in for a few. I had my whistle in my back pocket. we got in to the place and saw music stands everywhere. A few people were sitting with instruments and everyone was stairing at us. I smiled and asked when the session started. I got a mumbled reply and a look like 'why the f### do you wanna know! We hung around for the first tune and split. No one even cracked a smile!
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by shanty
Re: Not one for the purists?
Indeed, there once was a ......"session".....somewhat like that in Barrie, Ontario [of all places]....to call it a session would be overstating it....there were music stands, a list of tunes and even a concert master...or, in this case, mistress....the only thing lacking was a conductor's baton. But the mistress of ceremonies made ample use of her waving bow.....it was gruesome. ;) One night of that was enough.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Not one for the purists?
I'm trying to get a sense of why this might be surprising for you mtodd.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Not one for the purists?
Yes, Lissagriffin. But could you dance to what they played?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Not one for the purists?
One of the things played has been described as 'the apotheosis of the dance'. What more can I say?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Lissagriffin
Re: Not one for the purists?
ah Patk it was in my "salad days"...and, really, I was ever hopeful [i'm a fairly optomistic person by and large altho not so much these days...] that Irish music could be played anywhere north of the 401 with any degree of legitimacy...alas it was not to be....and, as you perhaps are rightly implying, I was a right eejit for thinking anything cultural could take place in Barrie.
;)
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Not one for the purists?
Yes Lissagriffin, but could the audience sip pints and chat through the dull bits? Leaving aside the pub analogy, could the audience members sip tea and chat through the dull bits: could little kids come tearing through, do a noisy circuit of all the musicians, then sprawl on the floor?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Not one for the purists?
"could little kids come tearing through, do a noisy circuit of all the musicians, then sprawl on the floor? "
-lovely image. and so true. ....an argument for bringing shakey eggs actually....[think of them as adults rattles]...but are good children amusers
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Not one for the purists?
Don't come down too hard on the music stand people. Many of us are stumbling around Trad without a clue. Go read some of the more thoughtful observations on the `hobbyist' thread.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Not one for the purists?
Was just talking about this with a friend after last night's session. He was lamenting a sheet music addiction of another player he knows, feeling like her being tethered to the dots was holding her playing back.
I suspect what ruffles feathers here for some is that we run into people who say they want to play this music and participate in sessions. But they resist learning and playing this music the way other trad musicians learn and play it--by ear, by immersion. They want to "be like Mike" without doing what Mike does.
It's that old saw. If you want to play like Tommy Peoples, don't copy Tommy Peoples, do what he did (i.e., learn tunes from the old timers in the North, session in Dublin, move to Clare, etc.). On a lighter scale, if you want to play in sessions, don't just copy the music, but do what good session players do--develop and trust your ears, play with people.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
This purists' opinion
lisagriffin what were the tunes they played? {I like a good brass section.}
I have been to symphony where you experience all the dance & emotion of the music. The players are not merely counting the bars, Some are not even looking at the score. When this happens the orchestra is very familiar with their fellow musicians & love the music (tunes) they are playing. Those concerts are worth the admission.
You are on to something. When music is 'played' it is good. Be playful.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Not one for the purists?
So basically, a good orchestra is just a session that's too big for its own good, so big it needs a metronome at the front to keep everyone together. LOL. Maybe if they realized that timpani aren't just for sound effects in the 1812 Overture and could be used to keep the beat, they wouldn't need the person in the penguin suit up front....
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Not one for the purists?
Instead of timpani, maybe a lambeg drum?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re:
No place for symphonic music in a traditional music world?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Not one for the purists?
Now then, could one not argue that the bodhran is really a timpani in miniature? I think one could, since it's played in a sense exactly the same way....but just the opposite.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Not one for the purists?
I had an idea like that comparing uilleann pipes & pipe organs.
You know I briefly worked for someone who was building a pipe organ for the university. It was fun.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Not one for the purists?
Been to seshes like that - they stop playing as soon as anyone starts improvising or playing counter-melodies as it is different to what is in front of them.
Dots are fine but reliance on them stifles a living tradition.
# Posted on October 24th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Not one for the purists?
Come on - Even a bluegrass jam is more of a session than everyone playing irish music from sheet music
# Posted on October 24th 2008 by Bren
Re: Not one for the purists?
What is Bluegrass Jam? Sounds nasty - sort of like honey made out of red clover...
# Posted on October 24th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: Not one for the purists?
It's called blae girse jeely on Scotland, of course
hth
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by Bren
Re: Not one for the purists?
"in" Scotland, just in case you thought Scotland was some new kind of piece
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by Bren
Re: Not one for the purists?
Bren, Ah dinna think at a-body'll unerstan fit ye mean by piece... They micht e'en misconstrue't richt wrang if yer telt tae "haud yer piece" intead o' "haud yer peace"
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
I wis thinkin it soonert tasty kin', ken, Ron
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by Bren
Re: Not one for the purists?
Aye weel Bren - Scotland is gye tasty!
Translation: Piece = sandwich (normally a "jammy piece" or "jeely piece", i.e with jam on it).
Jeely = jam or jelly
Gye = very
Haud = hold.
I'll leave the rest for folk to work out for themselves.
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
Haw see youse 2 - geezabrek ih? Youse urny the on'y wans thit kin gee it laldy wi the glesga patter. Boarn in shuttleston in broat up in 'e drum a hink av goat 'e right pedigree, n'at know? Ma brer styes in Galashiels in 'e Borders in up untae jist a wee while back thon patter wis is incomprehensible is youse Buchan punters. Ah'm no sure how they aw talk noo bit twinty years ago it wis aw thon kerry oan, probly lit Ayberdeen people:
furst yin: Fa's the caalest?
ither yin: No me, ahm wearin the coatie ah goat oot the sna ploo. Thoan ither dunderheid didnae ken it wis gonnae get caaller be the moarn's moarn.
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Not one for the purists?
Scotland, of course, consists of very hard but nonetheless extractable sugar, overlaid with a hard surface in demure colours to be easier on the eye of Queen Victoria and also to prevent her from digging up great chunks and eating it, as she was somewhat overweight.
The mountains were reduced to stumps from Himalayan dimensions not by the glaciers, but by the appetite of the Scots.
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Not one for the purists?
Nicholas - hiv ye been oan the sugar-olly watter again? If wees yins hae sic muckle appetites, yid be'er watch oot cos we're gonnae cum an eat England an a'.....
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
We'll cook some of it for you.
That'll put you off.
# Posted on October 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Not one for the purists?
Right enough - those eejits in charge at Westminster have done a grand job at cooking the books...
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
England by contrast, never really had any mountains to speak of, apart from a small county which had originally been part of Wales (Cymru) called Cumbria (which means Cymru anyway, so it isn't really English.) Shortly after the Angles and Saxons arrived, they decided that mountains weren't very practical and not in keeping with their ultimate projected ideal of mock-tudor suburbia, out of town shopping malls and boutiques selling ancestor-worship memoribilia to their ancient Indo-european past such as Lager (Aryan)and Curries (Indic), so they decided to have them all demolished to create more lebensraum. This process was exacerbated during Danelaw, one of the unfortunate consequences of which was Hull. And Belgium.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Not one for the purists?
Everything nicholas said, but battered and deep-fried and stuck in a bun
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by Bren
Re: Not one for the purists?
Belgium of course is not in England, but it could have been, anytime, but they decided it was important that must remain culturally distinct, being Belgian-speakers, and wished to retain forever with pride the title as the most Boring Place on the Planet. However everyone knows that ithe title should go to England but never does, but for the fact that SE England, and in particular SE London, is host to many of the finest Irish traditional music sessio....NURSE! NURSE!
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Not one for the purists?
Of dear KML.... come and tak yer medicine. Now, you're not supposed to enjoy medicine, so you'll have to listen to some morris tunes....
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
Grabs tin hat and coat and beats a hasty retreat from mustard board before the shelling starts....
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
Morris tunes? English music?
GAAahhh...
[Right hand convulsively twitches at left upper chest area....Breathing becomes laboured then shallow, followed by one major exhalation, then nothing]
Looks down on hospital theatre scene. Suddenly remembers RonP owes him a pint. Goes back down into corporeal entity.
Some things you can't buy....
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Not one for the purists?
Dang it Danny.. I thought you'd forgotten about that pint. Why not have a wee hauf instead - I am now, then away to hit the hay - oidhche mhath.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: Not one for the purists?
KML/Ron P, thanks for the entertainment. LOL
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by john knoss