a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Two of the sessions I frequent tend to step outside the "just the tunes, ma'am" boundary I've seen in most sessions. I frequent about 3-4 sessions a week, and all of them are wildly different, with different levels of the playing. As an all-around musician, I find them all very musically fulfilling. I would not call myself a trad-head, but I do draw the line at certain things, like weird jazz-irish-fusion stuff. But I want to know other people's opinions: is there a place in The Music for variation, improvisation, and creative flights of fancy? Should one refrain from straying from the tune while in a session, and save it for a gig? Should one refrain from variations at all time and simply play the tune?
I'll give some examples. At one of these sessions, we'll play the tune straight the first time through, and then someone might decide to "have some fun with the tune." By the 4th or 5th time through, we've strayed away from the straight tune; someone is usually holding the melody, but everyone else ('cept the guitarist, and even he's doing crazy chords and interesting syncopated strumming) might be doing their own thing: a harmony, a rhythmic variation, an octave up or down, etc. And we're usually going at a pretty good clip, too. Granted, it's a small group of us (usually no more than 6) and everyone is a highly skilled musician.
Another of my favorite sessions is usually led by a fiddler known for his variations. If the session is larger on a given night, there will be fewer variations, but if it's smaller (say 3 fiddles, guitar and maybe a flute), there will be plenty of variations: tripleted passages, long and short rolls, double stops, drones, harmonies, octaves, rhythmic cross bowing patterns and syncopations, etc. I find this delightful, as I get to experiment with some fancy fiddle technique, as well as pick up some new tricks.
I love a good tune played as pure as the original pure-drop, but I also like to have fun with my music. Other people's thoughts?
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Sounds like fun. Out of curiosity what do you class as the pure drop?
There are many streams of tradition, some are more regimented, others very free, be what you want to be .
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
hmmm...pure drop... here's the clearest way I can explain it...
I know a concertina player: he's around 80 years old and from Kerry. Each tune he plays is measured, paced, no fancy tricks or rhythms, or outlandish speed, maybe a well placed ornament or two on the quavers, but the tune simply is...the tune. And it's lovely. That's what I take to be "pure drop."
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I'm afraid to say that this boils down to the bloody never ending dots debate ...
It's how you define the word "tune".
Within the tradition, "tune" is an elastic term. The very word itself not only implies variation, but demands it. So your question should be redundant. However, the fact that your question does hold resonance with many players is sad.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Two recordings that immediately spring to mind are Eileen Ivers playing Crock of Gold/ Julia Delaney and all of Kevin Griffin's banjo playing on the Across the Pond album. Both artists create all sorts of variations on the themes of the melody; creating tension, dropping up/down octaves, unique ornaments, etc. It all works and takes your ears on a fabulous journey around the countryside of the main melody.
I've also had the great joy of hearing it done well in sessions. I personally don't have the skill or creativity for variations yet, but when a talented player does it well within the framework of the tune it sounds brilliant.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
If your variations are wild enough to clash with the 80yr old guy playing the tune then I am not sure it is suited to a session , or at least it would not be my preferred type of session. I don't have a problem with this kind of thing in concert.
If the 6 of you are so good and can do exotic variations without clashing then you must be very good or have practiced your funny bits.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I'd definitely say you're a bit off in putting variation, even wild variation, outside of the tradition. Especially when you get down to choice bits like microtonal ornamentation and bowing syncopation...it can get tough conceiving tunes WITHOUT variation.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I never meant to imply that the variation might not be within the tradition. Just that the wilder forms do not sit as well with me in a session situation. I would rather sit back and listen if its good stuff.
Also my comment about "funny bits" was probably a bad choice of words.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I think that as long as the variation fits the basic frame of the melody, and if the variation is executed well by an experienced musician, then it's really cool. I know a lady who plays the reel, Nancy, on her whistle at near break-neck speed. The first time through the tune is pure, but on the second round she does this incredible 32nd note run through almost the entire "a" part. It's awesome!
I've heard some neat things done during performances, like playing a reel in waltz tempo the second time around or changing to a minor key for a few measures in the middle of the tune. It sound cool, but I think those kinds of variations are totally inappropriate for a session.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
"is there a place in The Music for variation, improvisation, and creative flights of fancy?"
There is a place for reaching a musical consensus. If you were playing with your 80-year old friend from Kerry, then it wouldn't make sense to 'go off on one', so to speak - it would be like speaking Swedish to a Moroccan. If, on the other hand, you were to introduce variations just a bit bolder than his, he might pick up on them and respond by allowing himself to be that bit more adventurous in his playing. (There again, you could learn a lot by trying to emulate *his* style as closely as possible).
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I asked earlier 'which tradition' llig was on about. Irish of course, but which region? There is a world of difference between Kerry and Sligo. The same tunes, but different settings and ways of playing them. IT appears to me that outside of Ireland there is generally one form If ITM; 'Sligo style'. This is taken to be ; 'Irish Music' I think this is unfortunate. I hasten to add that I am making a generalization of which there will be plenty of knowledgeable exceptions.
. I noticed on a site linkedhttp://www.resinandbow.com/
that they combine Clare style[s] with styles from Kerry. So there are according to this three main styles, another generalisation, there are not. Even the dividing line of the Shannon is not clear.There is a spectrum with broad characteristics that stretch up the entire west coast of Ireland and beyond.
Im sure this is common knowledge, but I just reiterate it here to make my point, there is no 'one tradition', there are many. For someone to make a statement such as llig did above makes it clear that they only have a limited exposure to the music, and are really pushing a particular interpretation of ITM, the Generic Sligo style if I am not much mistaken, Insisting that the way they know is the 'right' way.
So let me say this, there are many right ways, as musicians we are free to interpret the music in our own ways. A search for 'authenticity' is grand, but just by looking for it you must realise that you dont have it.
The pure drop of Kerry is different to the pure drop of Sligo, just listen to John Vesey and Dennis Murphy to demonstrate that fact.
Generalisations! AAAgh!!
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Usually wild variations at the same time are not going to sound real nifty, unless you're done them a million times together.
In small groups of skilled players, even if you don't know each other, it works well if everyone can listen to each other, and adjust their variations and settings on the fly to meld and make a lovely sound together.
Case in point, a vet player stopped by last week and played O'Donnell's Hornpipe, which she discovered one of our more junior players knew. She cranked it out twice, and then stopped, as the newer player simply couldn't jive the version he knew with what she was playing.
So, we asked him to start it, and then she seamlessly melded her version into his.
Variety is the spice of life, but we’re spicing delicious food, not making muddy stew, I suppose, to carry on with the analogy.
If everyone is making a lovely sound with whatever they are doing, listening to each other, reacting, varying appropriately, then all the better. If everyone is forcing their own round peg into a square hole, damn the torpedoes, then obviously that is going to sound like total garbage.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
One thing that really bugs me is "learned" variations such as the thing you hear from bands in a céili band competition. To me the only acceptable variation is something unrehearsed that happens on the fly, otherwise it's just an attempted modification to the setting of the tune. This comment may not be totally relevant to this thread but it's close enough as I wanted to get it off my chest for some time now!
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Bannerman - I know what you mean and it's a fair point - but to folks not born and bread into the tradition, it's difficult to know when you've aurally learned a copied "variation" that has been absorbed into the general session scene, wouldn't you agree?
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I reckon I have a few of these... non standard settings.... but do you mean tunes with say an extra part? like the 4 part Rakish Paddy? or little chromatic runs, like in my 'scholar?' or... ?
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I haven't got an example readily to hand but if you listen to most bands in competition you'll hear what I mean. They'll take a perfectly standard tune and alter perhaps two bars the second time around so that it jars when you hear it. And as you say JNE, this can get absorbed into the tradition when some young impressionable musicians hear it and think that this is a normal setting. Lonanas, the extra parts is "another days work" which again I'd take issue with - an example of this is the jig "Atholl Gathering" which is a lovely 2 part jig. However, it's often ruined by players who add third and fourth very forgettable parts.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
IT appears to me that outside of Ireland there is generally one form If ITM; 'Sligo style'. This is taken to be ; 'Irish Music' I think this is unfortunate.- Iona
Have you been everywhere outside Ireland then Iona? I assure you, sligo style is not something that you would associate with Australia. I can see that it has lots of connections with the US, but not here.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Just thought of two other good examples of added parts ruining tunes: "Ship in Full Sail" jig where a third part is sometimes added and "Tell Her I am" which is not a patch on the simple two parter notated in O'Neill's
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Whew, I'm glad BB, I'm hoping some others are going to tell me that too. Of course it was a generalisation. I didn' t say it to cause a reaction, just expressing a concern. You are right , I have not been everywhere outside Ireland....
My point was that in some regional style, variation is less important than strong rhythm, This was more so the case before the advent of recording I gather.
But this relates to the original discussion in that the style of wild variation, syncopation etc etc could be said to be a 'regional' style, American ITM perhaps? or 'new wave ITM? etc or......just an Idea?
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I've heard that Kerry musicians place less emphasis on variations than musicians from other areas, and that often the ornaments were sparse(or at least used less than in many other areas). It doesn't strike me as odd that such a style could be conceived as boring, or less inspiring. Me, I like measured, simple playing. It matches my boring personality.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
i think tunes need to breathe--let them breathe. i think that if you decide to make a variation, it usually sounds like you decided--it sounds over done, stilted, and doesnt fit. if you follow where the tune leads you, you will find the shape of the tune, and find places to leave out notes and add in notes, and you'll find some tunes like a certain note to be rolled every other time, and certain tunes like a note to be rolled every time, and certain tunes sound better fast and certain slow. what you think fits the tune is different than what i think, of course, but if we both arrive at it intuitively and respecting the tune, it will naturally fit together; if we both analyze and do variation because its the cool thing to do, it will sound like crap.
if you hear brian rooney play silver spear starting on an A, you just cant help sometimes starting the phrases in the first part on A in stead of F#. it's just in your ear. but, if you decide to do it to be different (and you never "heard it in your fingers" or heard anyone else doing it), it will sound like crap.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
awildman....less emphasis on variations, sparser ornamentation? Denis Murphy, one of the finest players of the Kerry fiddle style, was known for playing wild variations and loads of really crisp ornamentation. Listen to him playing the Piper's Despair and you'll get it; mindblowing!
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Not on the recordings I have here.Which CD are you referring to? I would like to get it.
We have to remember that individual musicians change their style in response to other influences they pick up over the years. So a recording of a younger player could be quite different to the same player 40yrs later....
Ps There's no 'wild variations' on the star above the Garter, recordings of Dennis and his Sister. To my ear Ornamentation is pretty sparse compared to some players.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
One tune by one fiddler on one album does not define everybody from that area. Please provide more examples. And where does this defensive attitude come from? I said "less emphasis" not "does not exist." There was no slur intended, nor given. I like Sliabh Luachra music. Too bad there's not more fiddle music from that area available.
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Argh, internet ate my post. It was...well, long and involved. Primarily it was that:
-The Piper's Despair recording is from the Milestone at the Garden CD.
-You're totally right.
-Listen to Rolling in the Ryegrass! :D
-Compare Padraig o'Keeffe, "Quinn's Reel" on Sliabh Luachra Fiddle Master; Denis Murphy, "Quinn's Reel" from the Breathnach books volume 3; Paddy Cronin, "Doon Reel" from Milestone at the Garden. Crazy variations.
-Sorry if I came off as defensive. I just get overenthusiastic about the few things I actually know stuff about : P
a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Two of the sessions I frequent tend to step outside the "just the tunes, ma'am" boundary I've seen in most sessions. I frequent about 3-4 sessions a week, and all of them are wildly different, with different levels of the playing. As an all-around musician, I find them all very musically fulfilling. I would not call myself a trad-head, but I do draw the line at certain things, like weird jazz-irish-fusion stuff. But I want to know other people's opinions: is there a place in The Music for variation, improvisation, and creative flights of fancy? Should one refrain from straying from the tune while in a session, and save it for a gig? Should one refrain from variations at all time and simply play the tune?
I'll give some examples. At one of these sessions, we'll play the tune straight the first time through, and then someone might decide to "have some fun with the tune." By the 4th or 5th time through, we've strayed away from the straight tune; someone is usually holding the melody, but everyone else ('cept the guitarist, and even he's doing crazy chords and interesting syncopated strumming) might be doing their own thing: a harmony, a rhythmic variation, an octave up or down, etc. And we're usually going at a pretty good clip, too. Granted, it's a small group of us (usually no more than 6) and everyone is a highly skilled musician.
Another of my favorite sessions is usually led by a fiddler known for his variations. If the session is larger on a given night, there will be fewer variations, but if it's smaller (say 3 fiddles, guitar and maybe a flute), there will be plenty of variations: tripleted passages, long and short rolls, double stops, drones, harmonies, octaves, rhythmic cross bowing patterns and syncopations, etc. I find this delightful, as I get to experiment with some fancy fiddle technique, as well as pick up some new tricks.
I love a good tune played as pure as the original pure-drop, but I also like to have fun with my music. Other people's thoughts?
# Posted on October 16th 2008 by meredithrachael
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Sounds like fun.
Out of curiosity what do you class as the pure drop?
There are many streams of tradition, some are more regimented, others very free, be what you want to be .
# Posted on October 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
hmmm...pure drop... here's the clearest way I can explain it...
I know a concertina player: he's around 80 years old and from Kerry. Each tune he plays is measured, paced, no fancy tricks or rhythms, or outlandish speed, maybe a well placed ornament or two on the quavers, but the tune simply is...the tune. And it's lovely. That's what I take to be "pure drop."
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by meredithrachael
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I'm afraid to say that this boils down to the bloody never ending dots debate ...
It's how you define the word "tune".
Within the tradition, "tune" is an elastic term. The very word itself not only implies variation, but demands it. So your question should be redundant. However, the fact that your question does hold resonance with many players is sad.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I like to play around a bit with tunes but would stop if it seemed likely to put off another player.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by nicholas
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Nice answer.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
my last comment was in response to bunnyhopper
>>Within the tradition, "tune" is an elastic term. The very word itself not only implies variation, but demands it.>>
Which tradition is that then?
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Two recordings that immediately spring to mind are Eileen Ivers playing Crock of Gold/ Julia Delaney and all of Kevin Griffin's banjo playing on the Across the Pond album. Both artists create all sorts of variations on the themes of the melody; creating tension, dropping up/down octaves, unique ornaments, etc. It all works and takes your ears on a fabulous journey around the countryside of the main melody.
I've also had the great joy of hearing it done well in sessions. I personally don't have the skill or creativity for variations yet, but when a talented player does it well within the framework of the tune it sounds brilliant.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I think I would rather play with the 80 year old guy Bunnystomper knows.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by feardearg
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
If your variations are wild enough to clash with the 80yr old guy playing the tune then I am not sure it is suited to a session , or at least it would not be my preferred type of session. I don't have a problem with this kind of thing in concert.
If the 6 of you are so good and can do exotic variations without clashing then you must be very good or have practiced your funny bits.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Donough
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I'd definitely say you're a bit off in putting variation, even wild variation, outside of the tradition. Especially when you get down to choice bits like microtonal ornamentation and bowing syncopation...it can get tough conceiving tunes WITHOUT variation.
--DtM
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I never meant to imply that the variation might not be within the tradition. Just that the wilder forms do not sit as well with me in a session situation. I would rather sit back and listen if its good stuff.
Also my comment about "funny bits" was probably a bad choice of words.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Donough
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I think that as long as the variation fits the basic frame of the melody, and if the variation is executed well by an experienced musician, then it's really cool. I know a lady who plays the reel, Nancy, on her whistle at near break-neck speed. The first time through the tune is pure, but on the second round she does this incredible 32nd note run through almost the entire "a" part. It's awesome!
I've heard some neat things done during performances, like playing a reel in waltz tempo the second time around or changing to a minor key for a few measures in the middle of the tune. It sound cool, but I think those kinds of variations are totally inappropriate for a session.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Quarter Irish
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
"is there a place in The Music for variation, improvisation, and creative flights of fancy?"
There is a place for reaching a musical consensus. If you were playing with your 80-year old friend from Kerry, then it wouldn't make sense to 'go off on one', so to speak - it would be like speaking Swedish to a Moroccan. If, on the other hand, you were to introduce variations just a bit bolder than his, he might pick up on them and respond by allowing himself to be that bit more adventurous in his playing. (There again, you could learn a lot by trying to emulate *his* style as closely as possible).
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I asked earlier 'which tradition' llig was on about. Irish of course, but which region? There is a world of difference between Kerry and Sligo. The same tunes, but different settings and ways of playing them. IT appears to me that outside of Ireland there is generally one form If ITM; 'Sligo style'. This is taken to be ; 'Irish Music' I think this is unfortunate. I hasten to add that I am making a generalization of which there will be plenty of knowledgeable exceptions.
. I noticed on a site linkedhttp://www.resinandbow.com/
that they combine Clare style[s] with styles from Kerry. So there are according to this three main styles, another generalisation, there are not. Even the dividing line of the Shannon is not clear.There is a spectrum with broad characteristics that stretch up the entire west coast of Ireland and beyond.
Im sure this is common knowledge, but I just reiterate it here to make my point, there is no 'one tradition', there are many. For someone to make a statement such as llig did above makes it clear that they only have a limited exposure to the music, and are really pushing a particular interpretation of ITM, the Generic Sligo style if I am not much mistaken, Insisting that the way they know is the 'right' way.
So let me say this, there are many right ways, as musicians we are free to interpret the music in our own ways. A search for 'authenticity' is grand, but just by looking for it you must realise that you dont have it.
The pure drop of Kerry is different to the pure drop of Sligo, just listen to John Vesey and Dennis Murphy to demonstrate that fact.
Generalisations! AAAgh!!
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Usually wild variations at the same time are not going to sound real nifty, unless you're done them a million times together.
In small groups of skilled players, even if you don't know each other, it works well if everyone can listen to each other, and adjust their variations and settings on the fly to meld and make a lovely sound together.
Case in point, a vet player stopped by last week and played O'Donnell's Hornpipe, which she discovered one of our more junior players knew. She cranked it out twice, and then stopped, as the newer player simply couldn't jive the version he knew with what she was playing.
So, we asked him to start it, and then she seamlessly melded her version into his.
Variety is the spice of life, but we’re spicing delicious food, not making muddy stew, I suppose, to carry on with the analogy.
If everyone is making a lovely sound with whatever they are doing, listening to each other, reacting, varying appropriately, then all the better. If everyone is forcing their own round peg into a square hole, damn the torpedoes, then obviously that is going to sound like total garbage.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
'If anyone would notice the "variation" without listening carefully, (and possibly knowing the tune) then it's gone too far!'
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
One thing that really bugs me is "learned" variations such as the thing you hear from bands in a céili band competition. To me the only acceptable variation is something unrehearsed that happens on the fly, otherwise it's just an attempted modification to the setting of the tune. This comment may not be totally relevant to this thread but it's close enough as I wanted to get it off my chest for some time now!
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Interesting, can you give an example? or a link? i think I know what you mean, but clarification would be good.
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Bannerman - I know what you mean and it's a fair point - but to folks not born and bread into the tradition, it's difficult to know when you've aurally learned a copied "variation" that has been absorbed into the general session scene, wouldn't you agree?
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I reckon I have a few of these... non standard settings.... but do you mean tunes with say an extra part? like the 4 part Rakish Paddy? or little chromatic runs, like in my 'scholar?' or... ?
# Posted on October 17th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I haven't got an example readily to hand but if you listen to most bands in competition you'll hear what I mean. They'll take a perfectly standard tune and alter perhaps two bars the second time around so that it jars when you hear it. And as you say JNE, this can get absorbed into the tradition when some young impressionable musicians hear it and think that this is a normal setting. Lonanas, the extra parts is "another days work" which again I'd take issue with - an example of this is the jig "Atholl Gathering" which is a lovely 2 part jig. However, it's often ruined by players who add third and fourth very forgettable parts.
# Posted on October 18th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
IT appears to me that outside of Ireland there is generally one form If ITM; 'Sligo style'. This is taken to be ; 'Irish Music' I think this is unfortunate.- Iona
Have you been everywhere outside Ireland then Iona? I assure you, sligo style is not something that you would associate with Australia. I can see that it has lots of connections with the US, but not here.
# Posted on October 18th 2008 by bb
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Just thought of two other good examples of added parts ruining tunes: "Ship in Full Sail" jig where a third part is sometimes added and "Tell Her I am" which is not a patch on the simple two parter notated in O'Neill's
# Posted on October 18th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Whew, I'm glad BB, I'm hoping some others are going to tell me that too. Of course it was a generalisation. I didn' t say it to cause a reaction, just expressing a concern. You are right , I have not been everywhere outside Ireland....
My point was that in some regional style, variation is less important than strong rhythm, This was more so the case before the advent of recording I gather.
But this relates to the original discussion in that the style of wild variation, syncopation etc etc could be said to be a 'regional' style, American ITM perhaps? or 'new wave ITM? etc or......just an Idea?
# Posted on October 18th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
I've heard that Kerry musicians place less emphasis on variations than musicians from other areas, and that often the ornaments were sparse(or at least used less than in many other areas). It doesn't strike me as odd that such a style could be conceived as boring, or less inspiring. Me, I like measured, simple playing. It matches my boring personality.
# Posted on October 18th 2008 by awildman
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
i think tunes need to breathe--let them breathe. i think that if you decide to make a variation, it usually sounds like you decided--it sounds over done, stilted, and doesnt fit. if you follow where the tune leads you, you will find the shape of the tune, and find places to leave out notes and add in notes, and you'll find some tunes like a certain note to be rolled every other time, and certain tunes like a note to be rolled every time, and certain tunes sound better fast and certain slow. what you think fits the tune is different than what i think, of course, but if we both arrive at it intuitively and respecting the tune, it will naturally fit together; if we both analyze and do variation because its the cool thing to do, it will sound like crap.
if you hear brian rooney play silver spear starting on an A, you just cant help sometimes starting the phrases in the first part on A in stead of F#. it's just in your ear. but, if you decide to do it to be different (and you never "heard it in your fingers" or heard anyone else doing it), it will sound like crap.
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by daiv
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
awildman....less emphasis on variations, sparser ornamentation? Denis Murphy, one of the finest players of the Kerry fiddle style, was known for playing wild variations and loads of really crisp ornamentation. Listen to him playing the Piper's Despair and you'll get it; mindblowing!
--DtM
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Not on the recordings I have here.Which CD are you referring to? I would like to get it.
We have to remember that individual musicians change their style in response to other influences they pick up over the years. So a recording of a younger player could be quite different to the same player 40yrs later....
Ps There's no 'wild variations' on the star above the Garter, recordings of Dennis and his Sister. To my ear Ornamentation is pretty sparse compared to some players.
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
One tune by one fiddler on one album does not define everybody from that area. Please provide more examples. And where does this defensive attitude come from? I said "less emphasis" not "does not exist." There was no slur intended, nor given. I like Sliabh Luachra music. Too bad there's not more fiddle music from that area available.
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by awildman
Re: a place for variation? or "just the tunes, ma'am"?
Argh, internet ate my post. It was...well, long and involved. Primarily it was that:
-The Piper's Despair recording is from the Milestone at the Garden CD.
-You're totally right.
-Listen to Rolling in the Ryegrass! :D
-Compare Padraig o'Keeffe, "Quinn's Reel" on Sliabh Luachra Fiddle Master; Denis Murphy, "Quinn's Reel" from the Breathnach books volume 3; Paddy Cronin, "Doon Reel" from Milestone at the Garden. Crazy variations.
-Sorry if I came off as defensive. I just get overenthusiastic about the few things I actually know stuff about : P
--DtM
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Dan the Man