I realize that this is heresy, but yesterday, at the end of my practice time with the keyed flute (working on Martinu's sonata), i naturally started playing the reels and jigs i know best, and they didn't sound bad! Granted, it takes more energy to play since you need to move the keys, but the rolls, taps, cuts, etc, all sounded fine.
When i started learning Irish music, i tried this and at that time it didn't work at all. So, i guess it's good to have a traditional flute to learn on, but if you have a playing emergency and you don't have a traditional flute, the other kind works fine too!
Going back to the discussion a few weeks ago on non-traditional instruments, I think most, if not all instruments can be adapted to Irish music. But like you say, it helps to start with an instrument which already has its own established technique and style in the tradition, in order to gain a preliminary understanding of the music, from a playing, as well as listening point of view. Having said that, I started playing Irish music on mandolin (and still do), without any real role model - but I do sometimes wish I had taken up the fiddle when I was a bit younger. I feel that, at 27, with the onset of adulthood in sight, I now have no excuse for making horrible squealing noises for the next 5 years. I certainly couldn't excuse myself.
The one good thing about an instrument is that it doesn't care what age you are. Some times older musicians, because of their experience can bring more colour to music. Young musicians always seem to be in a hurry these days! If it is the fiddle you would love to learn then i don't think that your age should hold you back.
Age be damned, David. I'm 42 and I my fiddle still squeals and screeches and whistles. Just like it did when I started 20 years ago (tho not quite as often). I've simply decided that Jimi Hendrix buried all those old distinctions between music and noise, so why worry? Do any musicians sound "sweet" all of the time? I've heard clinkers and clams from just about everyone (except Yo Yo Ma). Noise is just part of music. I say go for it. If fiddle is calling you, give it a try. Worried about where you'll be in five years? Where will you be if you don't try it, but still feel the urge? How many times have I heard, "I wish I had started when I was younger...." But no one ever complains, "I wish I had waitied a few more years to start playing..."
Hello everybody. I'm a (piano)accordion-player from Holland, playing with two local bands at the moment, and a fierce lover of Irish music.
On the issue of "non-trad instruments": there's this guy I know goes to every Irish session all over the place. He always brings along about 10 or 12 whistles and flutes of every variety, keeps informing everyone it cost him over 500 pound, insists on using the C only, and can't play. And there's this girl plays the mouth-organ, worth about 20 pound, who knows how to play The Music very well indeed.
I rest my case.
(And, the only thing i have that's worh 500 Bob is my car.)
I think David hit the nail on the head: try to learn on a conventional instrument if you can. It's much harder (maybe impossible) to learn traditional music on an instrument that doesn't have an established tradition. That's the second rule of learning traditional music.
At least one of the representative Irish flute players -- Paddy Carty -- played a finger-on-the-keys flute (not Boehm, but one of the other systems that competed with it for a while and then disappeared). However, the first rule of learning traditional music is that, if you're Irish and grew up listening to the stuff, then just do whatever the hell you want. Other people need to be more humble.
David! Don't be silly. The onset of adulthood is always five years or so older than the age you currently are. It's one of the best kept secrets of humankind. You keep thinking that when you hit (insert five years older than you are now here), you'll be grownup and adult and able to handle everything life throws at you with equanimity and aplomb and style and grace, only to discover that the mysterious "adult" mark is always a little further off. Not having hit fifty yet, I can't speak for older than me, but it certainly has been true this first part of my life.
Will is exactly right (as usual). You go out there and get a fiddle RIGHT NOW. Start squeaking away. Hell, Matt Heaton is one of the best guitarists I've ever heard, and he took up the fiddle just this last December as a dead beginner (although he played the banjo before starting fiddle, so it was easier, plus he already knows all the tunes). He squeaked and squawked for quite some time, but he is rapidly becoming a lovely player on the thing. (By now, I imagine he's better than me.) Especially since you play the mando -- banjo and mando are probably the easiest instruments to make a switch over to the fiddle.
Me, I started playing again a couple years back, and really got into Irish last December (along with Matt). I'm just a couple of months behind Will in terms of age. So don't go giving us that 27 bit! I know of a lovely guy who is in his 50's who has taken up the fiddle. He's embarrassed by his squeaks and squawks as well, but he's improved such a very lot since he started last year. I sometimes think that if he would worry less about it, he'd be going even faster.
Dave - I started fiddle in my thirties and those horrible squealing noises only lasted a few weeks. (And I could really play in tune after a few months.) Give it a try! (Of course, playing all those ornaments properly and getting the bowing right will take the rest of your life...)
OR forget the fiddle and stick to the flute, and you will never have to buy strings or rosin, and will never, never squeal (though you *will* squeak). Other side effects include shortness of breath, vomiting, and wearing preposterous costumes during musical performance.
Glauber, I've been playing trad tunes on an old boehm-keyed flute that I have and I came up with the same notion.
I think the reason why we don't see more boehm flutes in sessions is twofold, first being that the boehm-system flute is way overkeyed for playing simple irish music. The second reason is that people generally believe (sometimes with great fervor) what they are told, and many have been told that it's improper to play irish tunes on a boehm flute. I agree with this view to a degree, but nothing is set in stone. The tone of a silver & wood flutes is not as different as some claim it is, however the fingering involved make them sound different. The silver flutes can be louder but it depends on the instrument & the player.
One thing I enjoy about the fiddle is that they don't usually come with names. I've noticed many flute players compare makers, this is usually legitimate as most flutes are hand made. Even as a non fluter I can tell the difference between a the major makes in tone & style.
Instrument elite-ism is silly & should be avoided, always judge an instrument by it's sound & playability. If you base it on price-tag, appearance & status you could be in for it. I also believe in the "graduate theory" start out with a cheap instrument to see if it's your bag, once you get better & decide your serious about the instrument then get a middle of the road instrument, and so on & so forth. Otherwise you'll end up like Dekzeil's friend with great instruments but just toting them around & making an ass of himself.
It reminds me of a local guy who owns a $5,000.00 mandolin who can barely stumble through one Carolan Tune, but expects everyone at the local session to stop playing to look at his overpriced mandolin.
$5k!! it's a flippin MANDOLIN! & he can't even play it.
So I guess I strayed from the topic but the issues are relevant on any instrument.....
While metal Boehm flutes are not the accepted norm in Irish music, Joannie Madden of Cherish the Ladies has gone a long way toward legitimizing modern flute in trad music. The problem with many Boehm flutes in the hands of many players is:
-- If the action on the keys isn’t set just right, then the flute produces a lot of mechanical clicking and popping sounds. In an orchestra setting, these sounds are drowned out. In a smaller session setting, it’s a lot more noticeable. Getting the action adjusted on the Boehm flute can solve this problem.
-- While Boehm flutes don’t produce a drastically different tone from wooden flutes, there is usually a noticeable difference if you hear one played alongside a wooden flute. This difference can be minimized or even eliminated with a lot of practice. Another workaround is to find a wooden Boehm flute. The antique ones are a little pricey, and the new once can be even pricier. To see a gorgeous example of this, check out Chris Abell’s wooden Boehm flute at http://www.abellflute.com/theabellflute.html.
Paddy Carty, on the other hand, played a Radcliffe system wooden flute. According to the accounts I’ve read and heard, Carty tried the traditional open holed flute but wasn’t entirely happy with it. He then tried a Boehm flute, but wasn’t happy with that either. He found the Radcliffe system wooden flute provided the best of both worlds and accomodated his flowing style. I don’t know of any makers who currently produce them, and when I occasionally see one pop up on Ebay, they sell for horrific amounts of money.
I have no problem with Boehm flute in Irish music, but it does put a couple of extra hurdles in front of the player.
Insofar as instrument elitism is concerned, I agree with Brad. It’s all pretty silly. I see it a lot with flute players and pipers. I think it’s a combination of the price tag and the wait list. Most A-list flutes cost about $1,000 unkeyed and there’s about a 1-2 year waiting list. If you want something keyed, expect to pay around $3,000-4,000 and wait 5-7 years for it. Pipers experience even larger price tags with longer waiting lists. The last I heard, a set of Tim Britton pipes takes about ten years and his price tag would buy a new VW Jetta.
I think it’s much easier for a good player to bring out the best in a mediocre instrument, rather than expecting a good instrument to improve a mediocre player.
I started playing the silver Beohm flute about twenty years ago and have played nothing other than traditional music (Northumbrian, Irish, and Scottish in particular) although recently I've started dabbling in classical and jazz. I learned my music through playing in sessions and it never occurred to me that I was playing a non traditional instrument.
I have recently got a wooden Boehm flute and there is quite a difference in tone and volume. The wooden flute has a much richer creamier tone but is quieter - It's not a terribly good session instrument .
All ornamentation in trad tunes - crans rolls etc. - can be done on the Boehm flute but bending the notes is a good deal harder you need to use your embouchre a lot. Practice........
And finaly, David I am 40 next birthday and am looking forward to adulthood. I might even try to learn the fiddle.
Brad, straying back away from the point, regarding your local guy with the $5000 mandolin ("5K!! It's a flippin' MANDOLIN ...") These days that's almost common. Put it in perspective: I play flute (an M&E plastic flute) and when I learned that decent keyless wooden flutes go for about $1K (ok, +/- $250) I thought "Omigawd! The stupid thing is just a bored-out chunk of wood with a bunch of holes drilled in it!!")
Where a mandolin is arguably more complicated. In fact, it's arguably more complicated than a violin, because the string tensions are much higher. I was once a bluegrass mandolinist, and for them the hot item was a Gibson f-5 style mando, from the "golden age" of Gibson mandolins: the 1920's, preferably signed by the great Lloyd Loar, who was Gibson's acoustic engineer of the time. A Loar is ... well, not quite comparable to a Stradivarius fiddle: Strads are typically worth millions these days, where a Lloyd Loar mando would be only (!) $25K - $50K.
Nowadays, there's lots of luthiers who make mandolins. Some of them are around $5K. And Gibson has resurrected the F5 design, and are selling them for a cool $6K - $8K. In the meantime, my trusty mando is a Japanese knockoff that I got for $200 about 20 yrs ago. I love it. Sure, I can see the difference between it and a much pricier mando: the better ones have a more uniform response. Still, my el-cheapo-special has a surprisingly nice tone; I think it's one of those flukes you sometimes find in cheaper instruments.
The wood flutes are so tempting, but I'm going to hold off for a long time, maybe forever. I have a LONG way to go, but I'll like to become locally as "that guy who can play the h__l out of that plastic flute."
Brad: Oh, I got that point, I just felt like expounding a bit on mandolins. I said I was straying back from the point, right? I guess I just felt a bit nostalgic for those days, 20 yrs back, when I was a total mandolin fanatic.
About the flute, actually there's a few newer makers of keyless flutes - Dave Copley for example - who are selling wooden flutes that are getting great reviews for around $600 - $800. But, being somewhat perverse and having always taking a sort of pride in getting pretty good on cheap instruments, I think I'll stick to my plastico flute for a few years. It's also nice that the durn thing is absolutely indestructable. There's something liberating about being to chuck a flute against the wall when feeling frustrated about that passage you just can't get right. Just kidding.
Similar to modern Boehm flutes, the plastic flutes are fine in the hands of some but not so hot when used by others. I've heard a couple of M&E and Seery flutes and to my ears they're quieter than wooden flutes and the tone is a little sterile. I've tried playing them myself and haven't been too impressed.
Meanwhile, Tom Doorley of Danu plays a Seery made of Delrin. It sounds wonderful and he swears by Seery's design. Go figure.
I prefer the sound of tonewood flutes myself, I wonder why people spend more on "rubber flutes" than real ones. They are quiter, but on the bright side they are good for learning. As my friend Tim said to John one night, "Can you here the rubber flute?... neither can I"
Brad: The reason why people spend more on plastic flutes that wood ones is that the wood ones that go for cheaper than the plastic ones are really pretty bad. The plastic flute makers, notably Seery, M&E, and Dixon, make a product which goes for
Whoa, I guess my computer ate part of my last post. I'll continue: The plastic flute makers, notably Seery, M&E, and Dixon, make products which go for less than or equal to $300 and which are far superior in playability than wood flutes in the same price range, which will typically be mass-produced in Pakistan. I hear it's possible to find a playable Pakastani wood flute, but that it's a rare event. Most are, according to the consensus on the wood flute lists, good for wall decorations or firewood. I've played on and I could barely get a sound out of it. Of course, that could be just me (I am definitely a beginner) but the owner, who had it for a few years, complained that a lot of the notes on it were weak and/or out of tune. And his comment on my plastic flute, having tried it, was "Plays nice!"
A decent wood flute is going to run at least $600 for a keyless model, and there are many keyless ones that go for over twice as much. The good news is that two makers who are making the least expensive ones (a little over $600) are said to be making great products; one of them is agreed (by the woodflute groups) to be the "most playable" of them all.
I'm not sure I agree that a plastic flute is quieter than a wood flute. I feel quite positive that the wood flute tone is superior, but volume ... that's a different matter. In the session I play in, I often find myself holding back on my M&E because a. I don't want everybody to hear how bad I play, and b. because when I drive the thing all-out, it's so loud it makes my right ear ring! When I'm in top form (which is admittedly not very dependable, me being a beginner), I believe I can play louder that the two other guys in my session who play wood flutes. Which is a pity, because they are really much better than me.
I'll speculate on why you couldn't hear the rubber flute: odds are the folks with the rubber flutes are more likely to be beginners, like me, right? Give an M&E to a good player, give him/her a little time to get used to it, and then look out! Those things can be LOUD!
I agree with jomac, i love my M&E polymer flute. I guess each player will have his or her preference, but i don't see anything wrong with the M&E's sound and tuning, plus it's almost indestructible, you don't have to oil it, etc. It can be played sweet&mellow or loud. Michael also makes wooden flutes for about the same price range as his polymer ones.
As for loud, the Boem flute is louder; that's one of the reasons it was created. You can play a simple-system flute loud, but you have to use a lot more air pressure than you would have with a good Boem. Unfortunately, a tolerably good Boem flute costs more than a top-grade simple-system flute. A professional quality Boem (which mine ain't) is much more expensive than anything a sane person would pay for a simple-system flute.
Since Boem flutes all have pretty much the same intonation problems, the flute player is by far the most important component of having a good flute sound. For simple-system flutes, there is a much wilder range between the good, the bad and the ugly flutes. Simple system flutes are much less in tune than Boem (just can't put the holes where you need them and still be able to close them with your fingers). So the flute player has to compensate more. In any case, a great player will sound great with any tollerably good instrument. A mediocre player will sound bad with a bad instrument, will sound just a little better with a great instrument.
It looks easy, but the flute is a *damn*hard* thing to play well. It takes your whole life and then some. Your body really is the greater part of the instrument; the little piece of tubing with holes in it is just the speaking end.
Using the modern flute
Using the modern flute
(and not as a doorstop)
I realize that this is heresy, but yesterday, at the end of my practice time with the keyed flute (working on Martinu's sonata), i naturally started playing the reels and jigs i know best, and they didn't sound bad! Granted, it takes more energy to play since you need to move the keys, but the rolls, taps, cuts, etc, all sounded fine.
When i started learning Irish music, i tried this and at that time it didn't work at all. So, i guess it's good to have a traditional flute to learn on, but if you have a playing emergency and you don't have a traditional flute, the other kind works fine too!
# Posted on November 9th 2001 by glauber
Re: Using the modern flute
Going back to the discussion a few weeks ago on non-traditional instruments, I think most, if not all instruments can be adapted to Irish music. But like you say, it helps to start with an instrument which already has its own established technique and style in the tradition, in order to gain a preliminary understanding of the music, from a playing, as well as listening point of view. Having said that, I started playing Irish music on mandolin (and still do), without any real role model - but I do sometimes wish I had taken up the fiddle when I was a bit younger. I feel that, at 27, with the onset of adulthood in sight, I now have no excuse for making horrible squealing noises for the next 5 years. I certainly couldn't excuse myself.
# Posted on November 10th 2001 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Using the modern flute
The one good thing about an instrument is that it doesn't care what age you are. Some times older musicians, because of their experience can bring more colour to music. Young musicians always seem to be in a hurry these days! If it is the fiddle you would love to learn then i don't think that your age should hold you back.
# Posted on November 10th 2001 by oliver
Re: Using the modern flute
Age be damned, David. I'm 42 and I my fiddle still squeals and screeches and whistles. Just like it did when I started 20 years ago (tho not quite as often). I've simply decided that Jimi Hendrix buried all those old distinctions between music and noise, so why worry? Do any musicians sound "sweet" all of the time? I've heard clinkers and clams from just about everyone (except Yo Yo Ma). Noise is just part of music. I say go for it. If fiddle is calling you, give it a try. Worried about where you'll be in five years? Where will you be if you don't try it, but still feel the urge? How many times have I heard, "I wish I had started when I was younger...." But no one ever complains, "I wish I had waitied a few more years to start playing..."
# Posted on November 11th 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Using the modern flute
Hello everybody. I'm a (piano)accordion-player from Holland, playing with two local bands at the moment, and a fierce lover of Irish music.
On the issue of "non-trad instruments": there's this guy I know goes to every Irish session all over the place. He always brings along about 10 or 12 whistles and flutes of every variety, keeps informing everyone it cost him over 500 pound, insists on using the C only, and can't play. And there's this girl plays the mouth-organ, worth about 20 pound, who knows how to play The Music very well indeed.
I rest my case.
# Posted on November 11th 2001 by Dekzeil
I've never been in Holland!
It wasn't me, i swear!
# Posted on November 11th 2001 by glauber
Re: Using the modern flute
(And, the only thing i have that's worh 500 Bob is my car.)
I think David hit the nail on the head: try to learn on a conventional instrument if you can. It's much harder (maybe impossible) to learn traditional music on an instrument that doesn't have an established tradition. That's the second rule of learning traditional music.
At least one of the representative Irish flute players -- Paddy Carty -- played a finger-on-the-keys flute (not Boehm, but one of the other systems that competed with it for a while and then disappeared). However, the first rule of learning traditional music is that, if you're Irish and grew up listening to the stuff, then just do whatever the hell you want. Other people need to be more humble.
# Posted on November 12th 2001 by glauber
Re: Using the modern flute
David! Don't be silly. The onset of adulthood is always five years or so older than the age you currently are. It's one of the best kept secrets of humankind. You keep thinking that when you hit (insert five years older than you are now here), you'll be grownup and adult and able to handle everything life throws at you with equanimity and aplomb and style and grace, only to discover that the mysterious "adult" mark is always a little further off. Not having hit fifty yet, I can't speak for older than me, but it certainly has been true this first part of my life.
I know of a lovely guy who is in his 50's who has taken up the fiddle. He's embarrassed by his squeaks and squawks as well, but he's improved such a very lot since he started last year. I sometimes think that if he would worry less about it, he'd be going even faster.
Will is exactly right (as usual). You go out there and get a fiddle RIGHT NOW. Start squeaking away. Hell, Matt Heaton is one of the best guitarists I've ever heard, and he took up the fiddle just this last December as a dead beginner (although he played the banjo before starting fiddle, so it was easier, plus he already knows all the tunes). He squeaked and squawked for quite some time, but he is rapidly becoming a lovely player on the thing. (By now, I imagine he's better than me.) Especially since you play the mando -- banjo and mando are probably the easiest instruments to make a switch over to the fiddle.
Me, I started playing again a couple years back, and really got into Irish last December (along with Matt). I'm just a couple of months behind Will in terms of age. So don't go giving us that 27 bit!
Zina
# Posted on November 12th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Using the modern flute
Dave - I started fiddle in my thirties and those horrible squealing noises only lasted a few weeks. (And I could really play in tune after a few months.) Give it a try! (Of course, playing all those ornaments properly and getting the bowing right will take the rest of your life...)
# Posted on November 13th 2001 by Zhenya
Re: Using the modern flute
OR forget the fiddle and stick to the flute, and you will never have to buy strings or rosin, and will never, never squeal (though you *will* squeak). Other side effects include shortness of breath, vomiting, and wearing preposterous costumes during musical performance.
# Posted on November 21st 2001 by glauber
Re: Using the modern flute
Back to the point...
Glauber, I've been playing trad tunes on an old boehm-keyed flute that I have and I came up with the same notion.
I think the reason why we don't see more boehm flutes in sessions is twofold, first being that the boehm-system flute is way overkeyed for playing simple irish music. The second reason is that people generally believe (sometimes with great fervor) what they are told, and many have been told that it's improper to play irish tunes on a boehm flute. I agree with this view to a degree, but nothing is set in stone. The tone of a silver & wood flutes is not as different as some claim it is, however the fingering involved make them sound different. The silver flutes can be louder but it depends on the instrument & the player.
One thing I enjoy about the fiddle is that they don't usually come with names. I've noticed many flute players compare makers, this is usually legitimate as most flutes are hand made. Even as a non fluter I can tell the difference between a the major makes in tone & style.
Instrument elite-ism is silly & should be avoided, always judge an instrument by it's sound & playability. If you base it on price-tag, appearance & status you could be in for it. I also believe in the "graduate theory" start out with a cheap instrument to see if it's your bag, once you get better & decide your serious about the instrument then get a middle of the road instrument, and so on & so forth. Otherwise you'll end up like Dekzeil's friend with great instruments but just toting them around & making an ass of himself.
It reminds me of a local guy who owns a $5,000.00 mandolin who can barely stumble through one Carolan Tune, but expects everyone at the local session to stop playing to look at his overpriced mandolin.
$5k!! it's a flippin MANDOLIN! & he can't even play it.
So I guess I strayed from the topic but the issues are relevant on any instrument.....
# Posted on November 26th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Using the modern flute
While metal Boehm flutes are not the accepted norm in Irish music, Joannie Madden of Cherish the Ladies has gone a long way toward legitimizing modern flute in trad music. The problem with many Boehm flutes in the hands of many players is:
-- If the action on the keys isn’t set just right, then the flute produces a lot of mechanical clicking and popping sounds. In an orchestra setting, these sounds are drowned out. In a smaller session setting, it’s a lot more noticeable. Getting the action adjusted on the Boehm flute can solve this problem.
-- While Boehm flutes don’t produce a drastically different tone from wooden flutes, there is usually a noticeable difference if you hear one played alongside a wooden flute. This difference can be minimized or even eliminated with a lot of practice. Another workaround is to find a wooden Boehm flute. The antique ones are a little pricey, and the new once can be even pricier. To see a gorgeous example of this, check out Chris Abell’s wooden Boehm flute at http://www.abellflute.com/theabellflute.html.
Paddy Carty, on the other hand, played a Radcliffe system wooden flute. According to the accounts I’ve read and heard, Carty tried the traditional open holed flute but wasn’t entirely happy with it. He then tried a Boehm flute, but wasn’t happy with that either. He found the Radcliffe system wooden flute provided the best of both worlds and accomodated his flowing style. I don’t know of any makers who currently produce them, and when I occasionally see one pop up on Ebay, they sell for horrific amounts of money.
I have no problem with Boehm flute in Irish music, but it does put a couple of extra hurdles in front of the player.
Insofar as instrument elitism is concerned, I agree with Brad. It’s all pretty silly. I see it a lot with flute players and pipers. I think it’s a combination of the price tag and the wait list. Most A-list flutes cost about $1,000 unkeyed and there’s about a 1-2 year waiting list. If you want something keyed, expect to pay around $3,000-4,000 and wait 5-7 years for it. Pipers experience even larger price tags with longer waiting lists. The last I heard, a set of Tim Britton pipes takes about ten years and his price tag would buy a new VW Jetta.
I think it’s much easier for a good player to bring out the best in a mediocre instrument, rather than expecting a good instrument to improve a mediocre player.
John Harvey
Rhodeirish.net
# Posted on November 27th 2001 by Jdharv
Re: Using the modern flute
I started playing the silver Beohm flute about twenty years ago and have played nothing other than traditional music (Northumbrian, Irish, and Scottish in particular) although recently I've started dabbling in classical and jazz. I learned my music through playing in sessions and it never occurred to me that I was playing a non traditional instrument.
I have recently got a wooden Boehm flute and there is quite a difference in tone and volume. The wooden flute has a much richer creamier tone but is quieter - It's not a terribly good session instrument .
All ornamentation in trad tunes - crans rolls etc. - can be done on the Boehm flute but bending the notes is a good deal harder you need to use your embouchre a lot. Practice........
And finaly, David I am 40 next birthday and am looking forward to adulthood. I might even try to learn the fiddle.
Peter Hawkey
# Posted on November 27th 2001 by Peter Hawkey
Re: Using the modern flute
Brad, straying back away from the point, regarding your local guy with the $5000 mandolin ("5K!! It's a flippin' MANDOLIN ...") These days that's almost common. Put it in perspective: I play flute (an M&E plastic flute) and when I learned that decent keyless wooden flutes go for about $1K (ok, +/- $250) I thought "Omigawd! The stupid thing is just a bored-out chunk of wood with a bunch of holes drilled in it!!")
Where a mandolin is arguably more complicated. In fact, it's arguably more complicated than a violin, because the string tensions are much higher. I was once a bluegrass mandolinist, and for them the hot item was a Gibson f-5 style mando, from the "golden age" of Gibson mandolins: the 1920's, preferably signed by the great Lloyd Loar, who was Gibson's acoustic engineer of the time. A Loar is ... well, not quite comparable to a Stradivarius fiddle: Strads are typically worth millions these days, where a Lloyd Loar mando would be only (!) $25K - $50K.
Nowadays, there's lots of luthiers who make mandolins. Some of them are around $5K. And Gibson has resurrected the F5 design, and are selling them for a cool $6K - $8K. In the meantime, my trusty mando is a Japanese knockoff that I got for $200 about 20 yrs ago. I love it. Sure, I can see the difference between it and a much pricier mando: the better ones have a more uniform response. Still, my el-cheapo-special has a surprisingly nice tone; I think it's one of those flukes you sometimes find in cheaper instruments.
The wood flutes are so tempting, but I'm going to hold off for a long time, maybe forever. I have a LONG way to go, but I'll like to become locally as "that guy who can play the h__l out of that plastic flute."
# Posted on November 28th 2001 by jomac
Re: Using the modern flute
Jomac - you entirely missed the point. *The guy can't play it.*
Back to flutes - You can get yourself set up with a nice flute made of actual wood that is of a very high grade for $1k - $2k.
# Posted on November 29th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Using the modern flute
Brad: Oh, I got that point, I just felt like expounding a bit on mandolins. I said I was straying back from the point, right? I guess I just felt a bit nostalgic for those days, 20 yrs back, when I was a total mandolin fanatic.
About the flute, actually there's a few newer makers of keyless flutes - Dave Copley for example - who are selling wooden flutes that are getting great reviews for around $600 - $800. But, being somewhat perverse and having always taking a sort of pride in getting pretty good on cheap instruments, I think I'll stick to my plastico flute for a few years. It's also nice that the durn thing is absolutely indestructable. There's something liberating about being to chuck a flute against the wall when feeling frustrated about that passage you just can't get right. Just kidding.
Joe
# Posted on November 29th 2001 by jomac
Re: Using the modern flute
Joe,
Similar to modern Boehm flutes, the plastic flutes are fine in the hands of some but not so hot when used by others. I've heard a couple of M&E and Seery flutes and to my ears they're quieter than wooden flutes and the tone is a little sterile. I've tried playing them myself and haven't been too impressed.
Meanwhile, Tom Doorley of Danu plays a Seery made of Delrin. It sounds wonderful and he swears by Seery's design. Go figure.
John Harvey
Rhodeirish.net
# Posted on November 29th 2001 by Jdharv
Re: Using the modern flute (vs the "Rubber Flute"
I prefer the sound of tonewood flutes myself, I wonder why people spend more on "rubber flutes" than real ones. They are quiter, but on the bright side they are good for learning. As my friend Tim said to John one night, "Can you here the rubber flute?... neither can I"
# Posted on November 29th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Using the modern flute
Brad: The reason why people spend more on plastic flutes that wood ones is that the wood ones that go for cheaper than the plastic ones are really pretty bad. The plastic flute makers, notably Seery, M&E, and Dixon, make a product which goes for
# Posted on November 30th 2001 by jomac
Re: Using the modern flute
Whoa, I guess my computer ate part of my last post. I'll continue: The plastic flute makers, notably Seery, M&E, and Dixon, make products which go for less than or equal to $300 and which are far superior in playability than wood flutes in the same price range, which will typically be mass-produced in Pakistan. I hear it's possible to find a playable Pakastani wood flute, but that it's a rare event. Most are, according to the consensus on the wood flute lists, good for wall decorations or firewood. I've played on and I could barely get a sound out of it. Of course, that could be just me (I am definitely a beginner) but the owner, who had it for a few years, complained that a lot of the notes on it were weak and/or out of tune. And his comment on my plastic flute, having tried it, was "Plays nice!"
A decent wood flute is going to run at least $600 for a keyless model, and there are many keyless ones that go for over twice as much. The good news is that two makers who are making the least expensive ones (a little over $600) are said to be making great products; one of them is agreed (by the woodflute groups) to be the "most playable" of them all.
I'm not sure I agree that a plastic flute is quieter than a wood flute. I feel quite positive that the wood flute tone is superior, but volume ... that's a different matter. In the session I play in, I often find myself holding back on my M&E because a. I don't want everybody to hear how bad I play, and b. because when I drive the thing all-out, it's so loud it makes my right ear ring! When I'm in top form (which is admittedly not very dependable, me being a beginner), I believe I can play louder that the two other guys in my session who play wood flutes. Which is a pity, because they are really much better than me.
I'll speculate on why you couldn't hear the rubber flute: odds are the folks with the rubber flutes are more likely to be beginners, like me, right? Give an M&E to a good player, give him/her a little time to get used to it, and then look out! Those things can be LOUD!
# Posted on November 30th 2001 by jomac
M&E, bad flutes, etc
I agree with jomac, i love my M&E polymer flute. I guess each player will have his or her preference, but i don't see anything wrong with the M&E's sound and tuning, plus it's almost indestructible, you don't have to oil it, etc. It can be played sweet&mellow or loud. Michael also makes wooden flutes for about the same price range as his polymer ones.
As for loud, the Boem flute is louder; that's one of the reasons it was created. You can play a simple-system flute loud, but you have to use a lot more air pressure than you would have with a good Boem. Unfortunately, a tolerably good Boem flute costs more than a top-grade simple-system flute. A professional quality Boem (which mine ain't) is much more expensive than anything a sane person would pay for a simple-system flute.
Since Boem flutes all have pretty much the same intonation problems, the flute player is by far the most important component of having a good flute sound. For simple-system flutes, there is a much wilder range between the good, the bad and the ugly flutes. Simple system flutes are much less in tune than Boem (just can't put the holes where you need them and still be able to close them with your fingers). So the flute player has to compensate more. In any case, a great player will sound great with any tollerably good instrument. A mediocre player will sound bad with a bad instrument, will sound just a little better with a great instrument.
It looks easy, but the flute is a *damn*hard* thing to play well. It takes your whole life and then some. Your body really is the greater part of the instrument; the little piece of tubing with holes in it is just the speaking end.
g
# Posted on November 30th 2001 by glauber