I've heard and tried them and I don't care for them. It's a compromise instrument and it doesn't sound as good as a 4-string fiddle on the high end or a viola on the low end.
Still, some people seem to like them. They seem fairly popular in old-time. I can't recall seeing anyone use one for Irish fiddling, but I'm sure some do. That C string could be useful for droning on certain tunes.
I've seen people play tunes on 5 strings but yeah they've always been pretty crap instruments so it's difficult to guage how could they could potentially be. I saw one that was tuned in a cross tuning thing, sort of like old timey, and that was kinda cool cos the woman who was playing it could play all the D tunes down an octave.
I've also seen and heard them close up, and would second what marklar says. They're a compromise, and the ones I tried were horrible. I've slagged off the before on this site instruments of the particular maker of the 5-strings that I've seen most of, so I won't mention names again.
"so it's difficult to guage how could they could potentially be"
&
"I've slagged off the before on this site"
Guys, maybe it's time to give up ...... 'the weed'!
As for the 'Beatley 5 String'.
I can understand you saying you have tried other maker's 5 Strings & didn't like them, & thanks for the feedback.
However, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone here who has actually been along to Stoneybatter to try out the Beatley 5 String Fiddle. Or to hear from anyone who has actually heard one of his 5 Strings in action, perhaps at a session in nearby Hughes' or the Cobblestone.
Hmm ... yeah, you're right, Ptarmy. Proof-reading's bad this morning. Good grief!
I've tried a few fiddles in James' place. Nice instruments. Haven't tried a 5-string though. Sorry. I'll give one a go next time I'm in Dub.
Out of interest, whenever I've seen James in sessions, he's been playing one of his standard fiddles rather than a five-string. But the last time I would have seen him would have been about February this year, so maybe he's taking the five-strings out now ...
It seems to me that because of the technical problems in making a decent 5-stringer (if good ones could indeed be made then there would be loads around now dating back a couple of centuries or more) then the only realistic way to go is non-acoustic - you have the electronics in place to take care of the problems.
Having said that, it occurs to me that if some enterprising person would like to experiment with designing a 5-string CF-bodied acoustic fiddle, then something might be possible.
There are 5 string instruments, in the 3 to 6 grand range, that perform brilliantly, I guess they are harder to make well
Some renaissance fiddles had 5 strings .
Could it not be the stringing and tuning of the instrument that caused them to go out of fashion?
What about price? strings were very expensive relatively. Would that not have had an effect?
In defence of the five string violin let it be known that “Marklar “ you have not tried out a Beatley five string violin. Like most of you who say five string violins are crap, indeed a five string made on a standard 14” body length leaves a lot to be desired.
However my five string is made with a 14 1/2” body length but has the same neck stop and body stop as standard violin. The bigger body allows for the C string to have the same power as a 16” viola. Plus the extra width on the upper and lower bouts allow for the bridge to be bigger and the sound post and bass bar to be placed wider apart. I have fitted a 46m.m. viola bridge to my five string violins. Most makers have not taken advantage of this but stayed with the standard violin bridge and placing of the bass bar and soundpost. My five string violin has a far more complex of overtones and harmonics on the G & D strings than any 4 string violin. Even playing just on the four strings without ever playing the C string has amazing tonal quality. Their is a whole other world of music other than tradition Irish where this instrument is played. I have fitted the five string violin with a pick-up because I expect my customer to be in a working band, acoustically it has a big sound which projects well.
There's always much confusion on this issue. A violin is a violin, and a viola is a viola. Some people think a five string fiddle is both a violin and a viola. It is neither, not both.
I know it seems like I'm stating the bleeding obvious, but it's important. The whole tone and feel and range of expression you get from the top three strings on a viola is a whole different kettle of fish from what you get out of the bottom three strings on a violin. There is much much more to the instruments than the notes being the same
I must agree with James when he says you surely can’t condemn all 5 string Violins, just because you have played on a couple of them.
That’d be like trying a couple of cheap Banjos & then saying all Banjos are crap, without ever playing a Paragon!
As llig says, a Violin is a Violin & a Viola is a Viola.
The 5 String on the other hand is surely a very different instrument, so perhaps it's not really fair to judge it against the Violin or the Viola?
Just as it's not really fair to compare a Mandolin, with a Mandola or Bouzouki.
I heard that Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh played brilliant music on Fiddle & Hardanger at a concert up in Fermanagh, last weekend.
Likewise, it's not fair to judge a Hardanger against a Fiddle, they do different jobs, as does the 5 String.
Mind you, I'd love to hear Mairéad playing a 5 String!
Last time the topic of 5 string fiddles came up (I did a quick search, I couldn't find it) I suggested a 3 string fiddle. The problem with the 5 being that you have to make the body bigger to make the C work, and that kills the top strings, or at least changes them. So on a normal fiddle, the body is made to allow the G to work. But could you make a 3 string fiddle that was a little smaller, thinner, lighter maybe, that could really bring out the top end? Loud and sweet? The size and shape of fiddles is a compromise to make the whole range of the instrument work. So less of a range would be less compromise.
I think such an instrument would be great for playing diddley music on. It would be particularly good to play with tin whistles. I'd buy one.
The first Violins had 3 strings. the various medieval vidhels [sp?]had any number of strings. Like wise with Viols. The tuning on these instruments varied but were generally not tuned in fifths. string technology has advanced a lot since then.
I dunno, but such an instrument would have too shallow a bridge. I'm talking about a new instrument designed for modern strings. I think you could make one that was really loud and sweet.
the body of the fiddle is designed for the G. I'm talking about getting a body designed that doesn't require that range. If you think about how the sound or the top three strings on the viola sound, the GDA, compared to the GDA on a violin. How much brighter the violin is. Then could you not get an even brighter sound?
I got the chance to try one of James Beatleys fiddle the other day- he had just finished it! they are well worth taking a look at - beautiful instruments
Thanks for the positive feedback sherry. Was it one of his 5 Strings you played?
Llig, why Harp on about the Trumpet, this is a Fiddle Discussion?
No doubt, you would prefer it if James carried out his business, the good old fashioned Scottish way, by: ~
"Hiding his light under a bushel"!
Of course James wants to sell the instruments he makes, & why not, but knowing James as I do, I believe he is actually making instruments ~ because musicians want to play them.
Anyway, you told us you are self employed, so you must know the need to advertise your business one way or another, so why shouldn't he come on here & discuss them?
Just remember though, it wasn't James who started this thread, he only joined this discussion because someone was slagging off 5 strings.
By the way, you might be interested to know that, for a couple of years back in the 70s, James lived in Auld Reekie & was a regular sessioneer in Bells. Peter McC & I shared many sessions with him, back in the days when the sessions happened in the back corner, near the smelly Gents bog!
.... Ah happy days!
Of course back then, he & I were both humble Banjo thrashers! Well, I guess we all have to serve an apprenticeship of one sort or another!
I remember we had a Banjo threesome one afternoon with Dick Gaughan! .......... Well, consenting adults etc etc
Anyway, if I were you I'd be nice to him, cause who knows, maybe he's just the guy to make you your ideal 3 STRING FIDDLE!
Hey pt, I'm not slagging off 5-strings, they can be good, especially in a band. It's just that they are neither violins or violas, something separate. Anyone who thinks they can get the best of both worlds with one is deluded. However, I'd love to have a go on a good one, I think I'd really enjoy it.
(yeah, I've only been in Edinburgh 20 years, but I remember playing round the corner. And Perter McC is a great freind.)
Old-time on a 5-string? Interesting. I’ve only seen them in a jazz, quasi-jazz or Indian context. And always with a pickup.
I agree with Llig that a 3-string fiddle should be interesting. I’m trying to imagine how the sound would extrapolate from a 4-stringer. I think it would have some extra sparkle without being piercingly bright.
Not quite a 3-string, but the 'treble violin' makes use of this: "A space-age material known as carbon rocket wire, with a tensile strength nearly twice that of the normal violin E string wire, is used for this purpose." Made me laugh. Probably strays beyond extra sparkle into the realms of the piercingly bright ....
Must admit Pavif, the Fiddle I really need is not on that list!
The guys in our weekly Ballad Session both sing mostly in F, plus a few in C, so I usually take along an extra fiddle, tuned down to F, C, G, D, but dropping the normal fiddle strings down so far, makes the instrument sound pretty crappy!
Have you tried steel strings? One old-time fiddler I like plays in FCFC and it sounds great. If that doesn't work maybe a set of 3/4 violin strings could work? (I have no idea if that's really a possibility)
If I did need one, I wouldn't look on that list either. I might look into getting hold of some carbon rocket wire though. It might be of some use when I need to wire up my carbon rocket
I have no connection to James Beatley, but i met him recently when he fitted a new bridge on my violin. He did a great job and was a gentleman to deal with.
So...I got to play 2 of the 5 strings in his workshop, and I must say they are beautiful sounding and looking instruments by any standard. I have a 5 string violin from Barry Dudley that I love, but if i didn't I would be buying a violin from James.
5 strings are not as rare as you may think, and are used by many of the great American fiddle players, including Darol Anger, Casey Driessen and Brittany Haas to name a few.
5 String Fiddles
5 String Fiddles
I see that James Beatley, Dublin, has now started making 5 String Fiddles.
http://www.beatley.ie/FIVESTRINGVIOLIN.HTM
Does anyone here play a 5 String or have any of you seen or heard them being used for ITM?
I reckon all those Donegal & Kerry Octave playing enthusiasts could make great use of all those strings!
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I've heard and tried them and I don't care for them. It's a compromise instrument and it doesn't sound as good as a 4-string fiddle on the high end or a viola on the low end.
Still, some people seem to like them. They seem fairly popular in old-time. I can't recall seeing anyone use one for Irish fiddling, but I'm sure some do. That C string could be useful for droning on certain tunes.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Marklar
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I've seen people play tunes on 5 strings but yeah they've always been pretty crap instruments so it's difficult to guage how could they could potentially be. I saw one that was tuned in a cross tuning thing, sort of like old timey, and that was kinda cool cos the woman who was playing it could play all the D tunes down an octave.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by sneetch
Re: 5 String Fiddles
That was supposed to be how good the could be, oops.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by sneetch
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I've also seen and heard them close up, and would second what marklar says. They're a compromise, and the ones I tried were horrible. I've slagged off the before on this site instruments of the particular maker of the 5-strings that I've seen most of, so I won't mention names again.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: 5 String Fiddles
"so it's difficult to guage how could they could potentially be"
&
"I've slagged off the before on this site"
Guys, maybe it's time to give up ...... 'the weed'!
As for the 'Beatley 5 String'.
I can understand you saying you have tried other maker's 5 Strings & didn't like them, & thanks for the feedback.
However, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone here who has actually been along to Stoneybatter to try out the Beatley 5 String Fiddle. Or to hear from anyone who has actually heard one of his 5 Strings in action, perhaps at a session in nearby Hughes' or the Cobblestone.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Hmm ... yeah, you're right, Ptarmy. Proof-reading's bad this morning. Good grief!
I've tried a few fiddles in James' place. Nice instruments. Haven't tried a 5-string though. Sorry. I'll give one a go next time I'm in Dub.
Out of interest, whenever I've seen James in sessions, he's been playing one of his standard fiddles rather than a five-string. But the last time I would have seen him would have been about February this year, so maybe he's taking the five-strings out now ...
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Fidelius make a nice 5 string but it's entirely non-acoustic
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: 5 String Fiddles
It seems to me that because of the technical problems in making a decent 5-stringer (if good ones could indeed be made then there would be loads around now dating back a couple of centuries or more) then the only realistic way to go is non-acoustic - you have the electronics in place to take care of the problems.
Having said that, it occurs to me that if some enterprising person would like to experiment with designing a 5-string CF-bodied acoustic fiddle, then something might be possible.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Fiddles
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1091
There are 5 string instruments, in the 3 to 6 grand range, that perform brilliantly, I guess they are harder to make well
Some renaissance fiddles had 5 strings .
Could it not be the stringing and tuning of the instrument that caused them to go out of fashion?
What about price? strings were very expensive relatively. Would that not have had an effect?
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: 5 String Fiddles
In defence of the five string violin let it be known that “Marklar “ you have not tried out a Beatley five string violin. Like most of you who say five string violins are crap, indeed a five string made on a standard 14” body length leaves a lot to be desired.
However my five string is made with a 14 1/2” body length but has the same neck stop and body stop as standard violin. The bigger body allows for the C string to have the same power as a 16” viola. Plus the extra width on the upper and lower bouts allow for the bridge to be bigger and the sound post and bass bar to be placed wider apart. I have fitted a 46m.m. viola bridge to my five string violins. Most makers have not taken advantage of this but stayed with the standard violin bridge and placing of the bass bar and soundpost. My five string violin has a far more complex of overtones and harmonics on the G & D strings than any 4 string violin. Even playing just on the four strings without ever playing the C string has amazing tonal quality. Their is a whole other world of music other than tradition Irish where this instrument is played. I have fitted the five string violin with a pick-up because I expect my customer to be in a working band, acoustically it has a big sound which projects well.
# Posted on October 12th 2008 by James Beatley
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Hey james, do you play the trumpet?
# Posted on October 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
There's always much confusion on this issue. A violin is a violin, and a viola is a viola. Some people think a five string fiddle is both a violin and a viola. It is neither, not both.
I know it seems like I'm stating the bleeding obvious, but it's important. The whole tone and feel and range of expression you get from the top three strings on a viola is a whole different kettle of fish from what you get out of the bottom three strings on a violin. There is much much more to the instruments than the notes being the same
# Posted on October 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
? Its a fiddle... A 5 string fiddle...
# Posted on October 12th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: 5 String Fiddles
What's your point? A bouble bass is a fiddle
# Posted on October 12th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Well actually Ionannas, it's a Violin!
Surely this beastie was a Fiddle:
http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_renfid-viol-frets5str_Memling_c1480_deta.jpg
...... & just for the record 5 String Fiddles were common a long time ago:
http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/MedFid.html
However the 5 String Violin is surely a very different beastie:
http://www.glentitmus.co.uk/bill5.jpg
I must agree with James when he says you surely can’t condemn all 5 string Violins, just because you have played on a couple of them.
That’d be like trying a couple of cheap Banjos & then saying all Banjos are crap, without ever playing a Paragon!
As llig says, a Violin is a Violin & a Viola is a Viola.
The 5 String on the other hand is surely a very different instrument, so perhaps it's not really fair to judge it against the Violin or the Viola?
Just as it's not really fair to compare a Mandolin, with a Mandola or Bouzouki.
I heard that Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh played brilliant music on Fiddle & Hardanger at a concert up in Fermanagh, last weekend.
Likewise, it's not fair to judge a Hardanger against a Fiddle, they do different jobs, as does the 5 String.
Mind you, I'd love to hear Mairéad playing a 5 String!
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Last time the topic of 5 string fiddles came up (I did a quick search, I couldn't find it) I suggested a 3 string fiddle. The problem with the 5 being that you have to make the body bigger to make the C work, and that kills the top strings, or at least changes them. So on a normal fiddle, the body is made to allow the G to work. But could you make a 3 string fiddle that was a little smaller, thinner, lighter maybe, that could really bring out the top end? Loud and sweet? The size and shape of fiddles is a compromise to make the whole range of the instrument work. So less of a range would be less compromise.
I think such an instrument would be great for playing diddley music on. It would be particularly good to play with tin whistles. I'd buy one.
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Didn't the forerunner of the violin in the mediaeval era have only 3 strings?
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Fiddles
The first Violins had 3 strings. the various medieval vidhels [sp?]had any number of strings. Like wise with Viols. The tuning on these instruments varied but were generally not tuned in fifths. string technology has advanced a lot since then.
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I dunno, but such an instrument would have too shallow a bridge. I'm talking about a new instrument designed for modern strings. I think you could make one that was really loud and sweet.
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I can think of loads of advantages. It would be great to be able to really bite into the bottom D without the G in the way
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Why not just remove the G?
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Then you'd be bare arsed nekked!
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: 5 String Fiddles
the body of the fiddle is designed for the G. I'm talking about getting a body designed that doesn't require that range. If you think about how the sound or the top three strings on the viola sound, the GDA, compared to the GDA on a violin. How much brighter the violin is. Then could you not get an even brighter sound?
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I got the chance to try one of James Beatleys fiddle the other day- he had just finished it! they are well worth taking a look at - beautiful instruments
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by sherryc
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Did he play his trumpet while you were there? Or was that you doing it?
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Thanks for the positive feedback sherry. Was it one of his 5 Strings you played?
Llig, why Harp on about the Trumpet, this is a Fiddle Discussion?
No doubt, you would prefer it if James carried out his business, the good old fashioned Scottish way, by: ~
"Hiding his light under a bushel"!
Of course James wants to sell the instruments he makes, & why not, but knowing James as I do, I believe he is actually making instruments ~ because musicians want to play them.
Anyway, you told us you are self employed, so you must know the need to advertise your business one way or another, so why shouldn't he come on here & discuss them?
Just remember though, it wasn't James who started this thread, he only joined this discussion because someone was slagging off 5 strings.
By the way, you might be interested to know that, for a couple of years back in the 70s, James lived in Auld Reekie & was a regular sessioneer in Bells. Peter McC & I shared many sessions with him, back in the days when the sessions happened in the back corner, near the smelly Gents bog!
.... Ah happy days!
Of course back then, he & I were both humble Banjo thrashers! Well, I guess we all have to serve an apprenticeship of one sort or another!
I remember we had a Banjo threesome one afternoon with Dick Gaughan! .......... Well, consenting adults etc etc
Anyway, if I were you I'd be nice to him, cause who knows, maybe he's just the guy to make you your ideal 3 STRING FIDDLE!
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Hey pt, I'm not slagging off 5-strings, they can be good, especially in a band. It's just that they are neither violins or violas, something separate. Anyone who thinks they can get the best of both worlds with one is deluded. However, I'd love to have a go on a good one, I think I'd really enjoy it.
(yeah, I've only been in Edinburgh 20 years, but I remember playing round the corner. And Perter McC is a great freind.)
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Old-time on a 5-string? Interesting. I’ve only seen them in a jazz, quasi-jazz or Indian context. And always with a pickup.
I agree with Llig that a 3-string fiddle should be interesting. I’m trying to imagine how the sound would extrapolate from a 4-stringer. I think it would have some extra sparkle without being piercingly bright.
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Yeah, extra sparkle without being piercingly bright. That would be really great for diddley music wouldn't it.
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: 5 String Fiddles
http://www.newviolinfamily.org/8tet.html
Not quite a 3-string, but the 'treble violin' makes use of this: "A space-age material known as carbon rocket wire, with a tensile strength nearly twice that of the normal violin E string wire, is used for this purpose." Made me laugh. Probably strays beyond extra sparkle into the realms of the piercingly bright ....
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by pavlf
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Must admit Pavif, the Fiddle I really need is not on that list!
The guys in our weekly Ballad Session both sing mostly in F, plus a few in C, so I usually take along an extra fiddle, tuned down to F, C, G, D, but dropping the normal fiddle strings down so far, makes the instrument sound pretty crappy!
Any ideas?
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Have you tried steel strings? One old-time fiddler I like plays in FCFC and it sounds great. If that doesn't work maybe a set of 3/4 violin strings could work? (I have no idea if that's really a possibility)
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by airport
Re: 5 String Fiddles
If I did need one, I wouldn't look on that list either. I might look into getting hold of some carbon rocket wire though. It might be of some use when I need to wire up my carbon rocket
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by pavlf
Re: 5 String Fiddles
I heard those 'New Violin Family' thingies over thiry years ago in concert. Hope they don't catch on. But, seriously, there's not much chance.
# Posted on October 13th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: 5 String Fiddles
Hi All,
I have no connection to James Beatley, but i met him recently when he fitted a new bridge on my violin. He did a great job and was a gentleman to deal with.
So...I got to play 2 of the 5 strings in his workshop, and I must say they are beautiful sounding and looking instruments by any standard. I have a 5 string violin from Barry Dudley that I love, but if i didn't I would be buying a violin from James.
5 strings are not as rare as you may think, and are used by many of the great American fiddle players, including Darol Anger, Casey Driessen and Brittany Haas to name a few.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by pdviolin