I'm quite new to playing diddley diddley doo dah (a few years) and have learnt a lot of the terms used in respect to the different bit and pieces of the musical genre BUT!...
I'm at a loss re. the difference between dancing descriptions associated with this music.
e.g. what is the difference between "step" and "set", what other genres exist withing the "Irish/ Celtic/ Wotteffah" area where "ITM" music is danced to? And how are they related, how many people do them et cetera etcetera...
Some backgroud...
(Frankly, I've always found dancing an annoying irritant generally purveyed by emaciated women and gay men that destracts from the music. But there you go!)
Michael, those videos are excellent, the flute playing in the first is great, and in the second, how does he dance like that with the stage bowing under him so much?!!
I think a "step" is a hoofer bringing his / her clog down on your toe, and a "set" is when a set of dancers hurtles down the room in a solid mass and crash through the wall.
i.e., step dancing is done solo, or at any rate physically separately from other dancers who may be sharing a stage, while set dancing is a social dance, like your usual ceilidh dances where people take partners / link up / swing each other by the heels and all the rest of it.
I'm quite new to playing diddley diddley doo dah ...
Regrettably not quite new enough.
What gives you, someone who invades sessions to strum (extremely badly, it must be said) a BARITONE UKULELE, the right to use terms such as the above diddley diddley doo dah.
We musicians may use such terms among ourselves (just as I quite often call fellow Irishmen P***y), but coming from an unwelcome, unknowledgable and unfunny glipe such as yourself, it's just plain disrespectful.
(Frankly, I've always found dancing an annoying irritant generally purveyed by emaciated women and gay men that destracts from the music. But there you go!)
- obviously a rather feeble attempt at a wind up. It wouldn't even be funny if it came from someone who is respected on this board, but coming from yourself Yaal, it's something like a lack of respect (for the tradition, for women and for gay people) from someone whom members of this board (whom I've spoken to) have very little respect for anyway.
You need to cop on big time or make an appointment with your psychotherapist. Preferably both.
I'm not a dancer yaalhouse but I think this is the difference. A set is a specific dance for a specific tune. Examples would be King of The Fairies and St. Patrick's Day. Both are tunes, but they have specific "set" dances that go with them. Also, I think sets are usually danced by several people, where as a step is done by one.
The step is a more generic dance that can be done to any tune. This is why feis musicians can rattle off any tune (within the tune type- jig, reel, etc.) and the dancer can dance to it. Again, this is just my speculation, I'm not positive here.
If you look at my old videos (admittedly not very good quality) on my profile you will see several examples of set dances being danced in the market square in Kilrush in 2004. That is typical set dancing of today.
I have no videos of step dancing, but a youtube search for "Irish step dancing" should reveal hundreds. Today, step dancing seems to be characterised by inordinately expensive costumes and black curly shoulder-length wigs worn by the girls, and there's a strong competitive element in the dancing.
However, if you want to see a video of superb step dancing (and fiddle playing) from a generation ago then there's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLeCLRK8Ws8, which was posted here on October 9th on the "Another youtube video..." discussion.
And then there's the Sean Nos step dancing - very informal and has been danced in people's houses in Ireland for hundreds of years. It's still displayed for us occasionally by an elderly Irishman in one or two sessions in Bristol.
Don't talk about it, do it! Go out and try a workshop or two, or three, or more...or even risk it all and take a class?! Learn the heart that beats within and drives this music, lifts it. It is a very physical thing, forget the intellectual shight we can sometimes drag into it, not that you can't have a bit of fun there too. But this is a physical process, movement and a way of movement and social intercourse. Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to get amongst the right folks and will also pick up some of the humour that was also integral to it all ~ the 'craic'. Please, don't fall out from the start with something you admit not understanding. Don't start slinging the usual tripe with regards to 'diddly music' and 'prancin' dancin'. Don't beat at it and support the cracks that can be prevalent between music & dance and the rest of the context that was, can be, and is still in some cases, the full context of 'tradition'... It's a 'community' in its best and fullest realization.
If you lack any understanding of 'dance', then it's likely you aren't quite managing to pull that off in your music either, most of which, in our case, is 'dance music'... Drop your inhibitions and go out and have a laugh, with others and at yourself. Don't take too seriously, it should be about having fun and socializing, so really, a good dance should be like a good session, at least in that regard...
'Terpsichorean nomenclature' ~ jeez! If you're serious, I can drown you with terminology, but that won't make you a better musician. 'Dance' and dancing would, guaranteed...
Top man ceol! your description there nearly persuaded even me, and I really have two left feet. My dancing is something like a frog with a red hot poker up its sacro-iliac.
Sorry bb ... his opinion "matters" in that it's written loud and plain in a place like this, where people who have opinions which are based on a respect for the tradition gather.
His opinions, on the other hand, emphatically do not matter in another sense in that they're delivered with a complete lack of respect, in that he himself knows sweet FA about Irish Traditional Music and he's a supposedly "funny" (laugh - I nearly did) controversialist.
I was having a word with one of the Kilkenny regulars a few weeks back and asked how they could tolerate Y's presence. The answer came - he's such a feckin' dumb eejit, we only have him along so we can laugh about him his back. However, I gather that the tolerance is starting to fray somewhat and that pretty soon the Kilkenny "village" may soon serve an eviction notice on its "idiot".
I know what you mean An Fliutadoir - I just meant that from that post of his, I could care less what he says, and then finding out that he plays ukelele was just gold - like a cherry on top of the cake. Its easy for me to say - I am never in danger of meeting this person, unlike you guys. My thoughts are with you - seriously.
"Step dancing" is primarily for performance/competition. Usually featuring curly wigs, fancy dresses, and recorded music at strictly defined tempos.
"Set Dancing" (and Ceili dancing) are usually a social dances, usually involving couples.
Now, to confuse things further:
There are also tunes called "set dances" (Three Captains, etc), that are typically played for performances/competitions. These may or may not be associated with social set dancing, as some are actually tied to specific group figures.
There is also "Sean nos Step Dancing", which effectively straddles the line between social dancing and performance/competition dancing (see the Tom King video above). It's largely performance-oriented, but without the fancy dresses, wigs, or rercordings. Sean-nos stepdancers often can be found teaching sets and ceilis.
Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
I'm quite new to playing diddley diddley doo dah (a few years) and have learnt a lot of the terms used in respect to the different bit and pieces of the musical genre BUT!...
I'm at a loss re. the difference between dancing descriptions associated with this music.
e.g. what is the difference between "step" and "set", what other genres exist withing the "Irish/ Celtic/ Wotteffah" area where "ITM" music is danced to? And how are they related, how many people do them et cetera etcetera...
Some backgroud...
(Frankly, I've always found dancing an annoying irritant generally purveyed by emaciated women and gay men that destracts from the music. But there you go!)
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
No emaciated women here, and I have no reason to suppose the men are gay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InZLA5q1EfA
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
OK!
So what of the main question?
Some information please!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
This one of my favourites. And the flute playing as really really great.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=svZvAfGQ3J4&feature=related
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEdv_3C-B4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnwUxKKP9oo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA&feature=related
And I love this one too
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Yes! Yes! Yes!
All lovely stuff, no pre-concieved stereotypes and so forth...
but (!)
Can someone explain the different types & forms of dancing?!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Michael, those videos are excellent, the flute playing in the first is great, and in the second, how does he dance like that with the stage bowing under him so much?!!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
I think a "step" is a hoofer bringing his / her clog down on your toe, and a "set" is when a set of dancers hurtles down the room in a solid mass and crash through the wall.
i.e., step dancing is done solo, or at any rate physically separately from other dancers who may be sharing a stage, while set dancing is a social dance, like your usual ceilidh dances where people take partners / link up / swing each other by the heels and all the rest of it.
That's my guess, anyway, but it may be BS.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
I'm quite new to playing diddley diddley doo dah ...
Regrettably not quite new enough.
What gives you, someone who invades sessions to strum (extremely badly, it must be said) a BARITONE UKULELE, the right to use terms such as the above diddley diddley doo dah.
We musicians may use such terms among ourselves (just as I quite often call fellow Irishmen P***y), but coming from an unwelcome, unknowledgable and unfunny glipe such as yourself, it's just plain disrespectful.
Think on, mate ...
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by An Fliutadoir
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
(Frankly, I've always found dancing an annoying irritant generally purveyed by emaciated women and gay men that destracts from the music. But there you go!)
- obviously a rather feeble attempt at a wind up. It wouldn't even be funny if it came from someone who is respected on this board, but coming from yourself Yaal, it's something like a lack of respect (for the tradition, for women and for gay people) from someone whom members of this board (whom I've spoken to) have very little respect for anyway.
You need to cop on big time or make an appointment with your psychotherapist. Preferably both.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
I'm not a dancer yaalhouse but I think this is the difference. A set is a specific dance for a specific tune. Examples would be King of The Fairies and St. Patrick's Day. Both are tunes, but they have specific "set" dances that go with them. Also, I think sets are usually danced by several people, where as a step is done by one.
The step is a more generic dance that can be done to any tune. This is why feis musicians can rattle off any tune (within the tune type- jig, reel, etc.) and the dancer can dance to it. Again, this is just my speculation, I'm not positive here.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by rob_handel
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Well thank you all for the forthright observations and advice regarding my playing, respectfulness and mental state.
Meanwhile...
What about some information regarding the original question?
Is Nicholas about right?
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
The advice you have been given regarding yourself is more pertinent than that referring to dancing.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
All it takes is a cursory search on google or you tube to find the answer to your question... Why ask here?
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Yhallhouse, yes, Nicholas is close enough.
If you look at my old videos (admittedly not very good quality) on my profile you will see several examples of set dances being danced in the market square in Kilrush in 2004. That is typical set dancing of today.
I have no videos of step dancing, but a youtube search for "Irish step dancing" should reveal hundreds. Today, step dancing seems to be characterised by inordinately expensive costumes and black curly shoulder-length wigs worn by the girls, and there's a strong competitive element in the dancing.
However, if you want to see a video of superb step dancing (and fiddle playing) from a generation ago then there's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLeCLRK8Ws8, which was posted here on October 9th on the "Another youtube video..." discussion.
And then there's the Sean Nos step dancing - very informal and has been danced in people's houses in Ireland for hundreds of years. It's still displayed for us occasionally by an elderly Irishman in one or two sessions in Bristol.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_stepdance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_dancing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
if dancers are so annoying to you , then why would anyone bother trying to seriously explain to you anything about dancing?? SERIOUSLY!!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
"Terpsichorean nomenclature"?
Don't talk about it, do it! Go out and try a workshop or two, or three, or more...or even risk it all and take a class?! Learn the heart that beats within and drives this music, lifts it. It is a very physical thing, forget the intellectual shight we can sometimes drag into it, not that you can't have a bit of fun there too. But this is a physical process, movement and a way of movement and social intercourse. Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to get amongst the right folks and will also pick up some of the humour that was also integral to it all ~ the 'craic'. Please, don't fall out from the start with something you admit not understanding. Don't start slinging the usual tripe with regards to 'diddly music' and 'prancin' dancin'. Don't beat at it and support the cracks that can be prevalent between music & dance and the rest of the context that was, can be, and is still in some cases, the full context of 'tradition'... It's a 'community' in its best and fullest realization.
If you lack any understanding of 'dance', then it's likely you aren't quite managing to pull that off in your music either, most of which, in our case, is 'dance music'... Drop your inhibitions and go out and have a laugh, with others and at yourself. Don't take too seriously, it should be about having fun and socializing, so really, a good dance should be like a good session, at least in that regard...
'Terpsichorean nomenclature' ~ jeez! If you're serious, I can drown you with terminology, but that won't make you a better musician. 'Dance' and dancing would, guaranteed...
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Top man ceol! your description there nearly persuaded even me, and I really have two left feet. My dancing is something like a frog with a red hot poker up its sacro-iliac.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Now there's a man that would entertain a dance floor. I've never refused two left feet, being that side inclinded myself...
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by ceolachan
Hey, last I heard you were banned? ~ and not for having two left feet, but I missed the fray and only heard about it second hand. Welcome back!
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Gay men ?? holey moley
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by bb
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Eh? Me? Band? Nah, I'm just a session player. All rumours etc greatly exaggerated....
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Ah you just spotted that one, bb. If you're thinking what I'm thinking yes he Is a t w a t.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Yes, but he plays a baritone ukulele - so it doesnt really matter much.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by bb
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
It does if you happen to be in the same hemisphere, never mind sat next to it in a session.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Sorry Danny - I meant his opinion doesnt matter, about either music or dancing.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by bb
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
Sorry bb ... his opinion "matters" in that it's written loud and plain in a place like this, where people who have opinions which are based on a respect for the tradition gather.
His opinions, on the other hand, emphatically do not matter in another sense in that they're delivered with a complete lack of respect, in that he himself knows sweet FA about Irish Traditional Music and he's a supposedly "funny" (laugh - I nearly did) controversialist.
I was having a word with one of the Kilkenny regulars a few weeks back and asked how they could tolerate Y's presence. The answer came - he's such a feckin' dumb eejit, we only have him along so we can laugh about him his back. However, I gather that the tolerance is starting to fray somewhat and that pretty soon the Kilkenny "village" may soon serve an eviction notice on its "idiot".
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by An Fliutadoir
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
I know what you mean An Fliutadoir - I just meant that from that post of his, I could care less what he says, and then finding out that he plays ukelele was just gold - like a cherry on top of the cake. Its easy for me to say - I am never in danger of meeting this person, unlike you guys. My thoughts are with you - seriously.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by bb
Re: Some Terpsichorean nomenclature required!
(Dodging the homophobic vitriol.)
"Step dancing" is primarily for performance/competition. Usually featuring curly wigs, fancy dresses, and recorded music at strictly defined tempos.
"Set Dancing" (and Ceili dancing) are usually a social dances, usually involving couples.
Now, to confuse things further:
There are also tunes called "set dances" (Three Captains, etc), that are typically played for performances/competitions. These may or may not be associated with social set dancing, as some are actually tied to specific group figures.
There is also "Sean nos Step Dancing", which effectively straddles the line between social dancing and performance/competition dancing (see the Tom King video above). It's largely performance-oriented, but without the fancy dresses, wigs, or rercordings. Sean-nos stepdancers often can be found teaching sets and ceilis.
# Posted on October 12th 2008 by Georgi