Well, after many years' hesitation and trying every other approach/avoidance techniques, I've decided to have a go at trying to play by ear. Not very successful so far though.
I'm using the Comhaltas Foinn Seisiúin CD1. There's a set of three jigs, beginning with 'East of Glendart', which is a tune I know well in my head.
Here's the problem (and I'm really showing my musical ignorance here!): I slow the tune down using Amazing Slowdowner) and think I can produce the notes they're playing. However, when I look at the music in the book, the notes are completely different!
The musicians on the CD seem to be playing in a higher key than what I'm doing on my mandolin or what's printed in the book.
What am I doing wrong? Please forgive my ignorance!
Check your software (or instrument tuning to ensure it's in concert pitch). I'd be pretty certain that the tunes on the CDs are in the same keys as shown in the books.
Don't take too much notice of Llig's comments as I personally fell it's a big advantage to be able to use the dots to get the skeleton of the tune. Otherwise you'll always be limited to playing what's already played or recorded whereas there's lots of tunes to be found in old collections, etc.
by and large I find the Comhaltas cds pretty bad...esp. annoying is the harp player who is continually behind everyone else.
most tracks are pretty badly recorded imho and many tunes are probably WAY too fast for the people who buy these cds [as tune learning cds] in the first place.take the cut of Martin Wynne's for example....often a "slow" reel, but here it's played to say the least, a tad briskly
all in all, pretty shabby. waste of money.
don't waste your time with the accompanying books. learn the tunes by ear, but do try OTHER/better sources for learning the tunes.
Matt Molloy does a lovely East of Glendart on the planxty record after the break. It's nice and steady, uncluttered and in D. There's other good tunes to learn of that album too.
I find that the written notes get in the way of the music most of the time. The dots have their uses for sure. But if you have an audio source - be it a person or a recording - use that source.
what works for me best is to listen to the tune repeatedly until I can sing (vocalize) it.
If I can sing it , then I can play it.
I don't mean to trivialize the process but the key point is that when you can sing something you Know the tune deep inside. It's not a "head" thing any longer. At that point you can sit with your instrument and find it there.
This method is useful for several reasons, not the least of which is the applicability to learning tunes at the session.
Getting off the page is hard for many people. But keep trying and it will click one day and then you'll take off. Kind of like learning to juggle three balls
Recordings are often in different keys than the written music. Use your ear! As long as the dots are the same relative to what you are hearing, you're fine.
You're doing nothing wrong! Well done, keep at it. If your ears are happy, congrats and kudos to you! Who cares if you eyes aren't happy? Are they doing the listening?
Remember, your head might know the tune but your fingers don't.
Don't worry about playing anyone else's or a written version. Learn the basic tune, you can ornament it later. I started by playing tunes I knew from your childhood. Keep at it. Relax and listen. Most of all have fun!
Always be aware about comparing tunes you are trying to learn by ear and the 'written music'. 50 years ago I learnt to play a jig called 'The Frost is all over' Check out the 'Frost is all over' in the Tune Base. Apart from a few notes in the second part, it bears very little resemblance to the jig I play. Mind you there has always been different settings of tunes so it's not really a surprise, 'so be aware, be very aware'..........
The fact that the notes that you hear are different from the notes that you read is probably due to your slow down software, as people have mentioned. But when you're not dealing with a teaching tool, like the Foinn Seisiun books and recordings, there's no guarantee that you would be able to find the dots for any particular setting of a tune anyway, so it's good practice to learn how to deal with the disparity.
My playing took a big leap forward when I stopped having the notion that there is any one "true setting" of a tune. It is good, especially when you're starting out, to learn a specific setting of a tune, but if you don't treat it as THE setting of the tune, it makes life easier when you want to play that tune with other people who play a different setting.
When I learn a tune, I do learn specific notes. However, what I remember is the flow, intervals, and contour of the tune, not necessarily the specific notes themselves. So that allows me to be more fluid with the tune, and lets me add texture and variation to it. It also makes it easier to adapt to playing it with someone who plays it differently than I do.
Learning by ear is a big part of that. So you're on the right track! So once you've determined that you're learning the tune in the proper key, then learn to trust your ears!
(BTW, one way to check is by listening to Amazing Slow Downer playing the tune at full speed, and compare it to the slowed down one, and make sure they're in the same key. I haven't used ASD in ages, but if I remember correctly, it allows you to transpose to different keys too, and that may be what's happening to you...)
I have a big stack of tunebooks & shelves of CDs. The CDs sound better than the books ever did. Guess which stacks are catching more dust. Maybe if I give them away there will be more room for CDs.
The settings on the CD and the notation in the Comhaltas books are sometimes rather different. There is some reference to this in the introduction of either book 1 or 2.
I actually find the series very useful for leaning tunes and for practice workouts when I can't get to a session as often as I'd like. And i've had far more problematic players to deal with in pubs than the harper on the discs.
Sometimes the dots are useful to check a note or phrase here and there but if you're trying to develop your ear, use the recordings as your definitive source relative to these products.
Just god awful cds. Sorry. I own both 1 and 2. Awful...I only use them as a last resort when I don't have better version of a tune in my cd collection.
To summarise what you're saying (as mentioned by Reverend), is it the case that if I play a few wrong notes, it's not critical, as long as I get the gist of the tune right?
Yes, I think that at your stage of learning, it's not critical that you get the tune a little bit wrong at first. However, it is important, and you should be building towards getting it exactly right.
There's an awful thing that's very common in sessions, where people keep their heads down and play tunes how they have them with little or no regard to how other people are playing them. You need to be constantly receptive to the slight differences of the way people play little turns in tunes.
Playing by ear?
Playing by ear?
Well, after many years' hesitation and trying every other approach/avoidance techniques, I've decided to have a go at trying to play by ear. Not very successful so far though.
I'm using the Comhaltas Foinn Seisiúin CD1. There's a set of three jigs, beginning with 'East of Glendart', which is a tune I know well in my head.
Here's the problem (and I'm really showing my musical ignorance here!): I slow the tune down using Amazing Slowdowner) and think I can produce the notes they're playing. However, when I look at the music in the book, the notes are completely different!
The musicians on the CD seem to be playing in a higher key than what I'm doing on my mandolin or what's printed in the book.
What am I doing wrong? Please forgive my ignorance!
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by amhrán
Re: Playing by ear?
What are you doing wrong? Looking at the book. Throw it away.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing by ear?
Check your software (or instrument tuning to ensure it's in concert pitch). I'd be pretty certain that the tunes on the CDs are in the same keys as shown in the books.
Don't take too much notice of Llig's comments as I personally fell it's a big advantage to be able to use the dots to get the skeleton of the tune. Otherwise you'll always be limited to playing what's already played or recorded whereas there's lots of tunes to be found in old collections, etc.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Playing by ear?
"think I can produce the notes they're playing"
I'd say trust your ears - and keep at it , it's bound to get better to more you try it.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by BegF
Re: Playing by ear?
by and large I find the Comhaltas cds pretty bad...esp. annoying is the harp player who is continually behind everyone else.
most tracks are pretty badly recorded imho and many tunes are probably WAY too fast for the people who buy these cds [as tune learning cds] in the first place.take the cut of Martin Wynne's for example....often a "slow" reel, but here it's played to say the least, a tad briskly
all in all, pretty shabby. waste of money.
don't waste your time with the accompanying books. learn the tunes by ear, but do try OTHER/better sources for learning the tunes.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Playing by ear?
The CDs are definately at the same pitch as the dots in the book.
Check that your slowdowner is only slowing and not lowering the pitch too.....
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by spindizzy
Re: Playing by ear?
Matt Molloy does a lovely East of Glendart on the planxty record after the break. It's nice and steady, uncluttered and in D. There's other good tunes to learn of that album too.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing by ear?
I find that the written notes get in the way of the music most of the time. The dots have their uses for sure. But if you have an audio source - be it a person or a recording - use that source.
what works for me best is to listen to the tune repeatedly until I can sing (vocalize) it.
If I can sing it , then I can play it.
I don't mean to trivialize the process but the key point is that when you can sing something you Know the tune deep inside. It's not a "head" thing any longer. At that point you can sit with your instrument and find it there.
This method is useful for several reasons, not the least of which is the applicability to learning tunes at the session.
Getting off the page is hard for many people. But keep trying and it will click one day and then you'll take off. Kind of like learning to juggle three balls
Avi
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by improziv
Re: Playing by ear?
Recordings are often in different keys than the written music. Use your ear! As long as the dots are the same relative to what you are hearing, you're fine.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Playing by ear?
You're doing nothing wrong! Well done, keep at it. If your ears are happy, congrats and kudos to you! Who cares if you eyes aren't happy? Are they doing the listening?
Bah, stupid eyes. Harrumph.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
More for your ears ~
Two other bits of ear candy, via fiddle and the North ~
"Hugh Gillespie: Classic Recordings of Irish Traditional Fiddle Music"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/837
track 15 #2 "Finley's"
"John Doherty: Bundle and Go"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/344
track 17 #1 "Darby Gallagher"
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ceolachan
"The Humours of Glendart" / "East of Glendart" / "The Housemaid" / etc...
Key signature: D Major
Submitted on May 25th 2001 by Jeremy.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/45
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/45/comments
More on just this one tune, including links to other potential listens...
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing by ear?
Remember, your head might know the tune but your fingers don't.
Don't worry about playing anyone else's or a written version. Learn the basic tune, you can ornament it later. I started by playing tunes I knew from your childhood. Keep at it. Relax and listen. Most of all have fun!
Mary
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Antikhntr
Re: Playing by ear?
Always be aware about comparing tunes you are trying to learn by ear and the 'written music'. 50 years ago I learnt to play a jig called 'The Frost is all over' Check out the 'Frost is all over' in the Tune Base. Apart from a few notes in the second part, it bears very little resemblance to the jig I play. Mind you there has always been different settings of tunes so it's not really a surprise, 'so be aware, be very aware'..........
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Playing by ear?
"by and large I find the Comhaltas cds pretty bad...esp. annoying is the harp player who is continually behind everyone else."
Someone really needs to tell her that she's an ITM harpist, not a jazz bassist.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Whiddler
Playing by ear!
amhrán this is so cool ~ ears are amazing. Every day I hear more than I did before. It just gets better & better.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Playing by ear?
I ment to say I started by playing tunes from MY childhood not Your childhood. I'm not physic.....maybe a little physco though
Mary
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Antikhntr
Re: Playing by ear?
The 1st thing I remember from my childhood is a little yellow record;
"I'm just a kid again, doin' what I did again,
Singing a song,
When The Red, Red, Robin
Comes Bob, bob, bobbin' along."
This would be a better story if it was a recording of Willie Clancy.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Playing by ear?
The fact that the notes that you hear are different from the notes that you read is probably due to your slow down software, as people have mentioned. But when you're not dealing with a teaching tool, like the Foinn Seisiun books and recordings, there's no guarantee that you would be able to find the dots for any particular setting of a tune anyway, so it's good practice to learn how to deal with the disparity.
My playing took a big leap forward when I stopped having the notion that there is any one "true setting" of a tune. It is good, especially when you're starting out, to learn a specific setting of a tune, but if you don't treat it as THE setting of the tune, it makes life easier when you want to play that tune with other people who play a different setting.
When I learn a tune, I do learn specific notes. However, what I remember is the flow, intervals, and contour of the tune, not necessarily the specific notes themselves. So that allows me to be more fluid with the tune, and lets me add texture and variation to it. It also makes it easier to adapt to playing it with someone who plays it differently than I do.
Learning by ear is a big part of that. So you're on the right track! So once you've determined that you're learning the tune in the proper key, then learn to trust your ears!
(BTW, one way to check is by listening to Amazing Slow Downer playing the tune at full speed, and compare it to the slowed down one, and make sure they're in the same key. I haven't used ASD in ages, but if I remember correctly, it allows you to transpose to different keys too, and that may be what's happening to you...)
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Playing by ear?
The first tune I learned by ear was Old Joe Clark at a sing a long with my Mom's Girl Scout troop. I must've been all of 2.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Playing by ear?
I have a big stack of tunebooks & shelves of CDs. The CDs sound better than the books ever did. Guess which stacks are catching more dust. Maybe if I give them away there will be more room for CDs.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Playing by ear?
The settings on the CD and the notation in the Comhaltas books are sometimes rather different. There is some reference to this in the introduction of either book 1 or 2.
I actually find the series very useful for leaning tunes and for practice workouts when I can't get to a session as often as I'd like. And i've had far more problematic players to deal with in pubs than the harper on the discs.
Sometimes the dots are useful to check a note or phrase here and there but if you're trying to develop your ear, use the recordings as your definitive source relative to these products.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Steve L
Re: Playing by ear?
Just god awful cds. Sorry. I own both 1 and 2. Awful...I only use them as a last resort when I don't have better version of a tune in my cd collection.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Playing by ear?
The first tune I ever learnt by ear was one ... can't quite remember how it goes now ... something like ..
ber-dunk ber-dunk ber-dunk ber-dunk ber-dunk
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Playing by ear?
Ben, that'd be The Eensy Weensy Spider.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Playing by ear?
Use a plectrum, it is easier to look at the instrument that way.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Playing by ear?
Thanks to everyone for such a great response!
To summarise what you're saying (as mentioned by Reverend), is it the case that if I play a few wrong notes, it's not critical, as long as I get the gist of the tune right?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by amhrán
Re: Playing by ear?
they're not wrong notes if they're the right ones!
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Playing by ear?
Ah yes, the well-tuned ear can spot that, but what about when they're two very similar notes played side-by-side at fast speed?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by amhrán
Re: Playing by ear?
Yes, I think that at your stage of learning, it's not critical that you get the tune a little bit wrong at first. However, it is important, and you should be building towards getting it exactly right.
There's an awful thing that's very common in sessions, where people keep their heads down and play tunes how they have them with little or no regard to how other people are playing them. You need to be constantly receptive to the slight differences of the way people play little turns in tunes.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing by ear?
Thanks again everyone. This has been more than helpful. That's the beauty of The Session: people give advice and encouragement so freely.
Looks like I'm going to have some busy winter's' nights!
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by amhrán