Remember the shock the first time you heard yourself on tape as you learned fiddle or another traditional instrument? Perhaps shockingly good in some people's cases, but for many of us it was probably more depressing than invigorating.
I'm wondering why it's possible to listen to some great fiddle player [for example] and yet we don't hear the half of it...we get one level perhaps. Then the more we know about the difficulty of the craft, other levels reveal themselves in the playing as the years go by. And yet -- how to incorporate those deepr levels into our own playing? the problem being...how to honestly *hear* ourselves it seems to me.
There always seems to be this odd *disjunct* between what we hear in OTHERS [professional] playing and yet it's so difficult for to hear at the same levels/with the same critical discernment in our own playing. Is it that we're afraid to hear ourselves? Or simply can't? Does ego get in the way? Is it a skill that's honed as you go and become better ...so as you become a better, more critical listener that carries over into one's playing?
It's as if when our own playing is concerned we have this "idea" in our brain of how we sound, but the shock comes when we really hear how we sound [ie, on tape]. Are better/more talented players simply better at *really* listtening to themselves honestly and critically and learning from that and understanding what the music needs and how to get it?
It always seems to be a carrot and horse conundrum. Listen to others and yourself perhaps. Sure, but how? And then what?
I hate recording myself. I always sound like cr*p. Once I get through the initial pain and horror of listening to it I can then listen critically and sort out where I can improve. Recording oneself is one of the most beneficial things ever in that regard. I can hear stuff, the good, the bad, and the ugly, that I don't hear when just playing away.
SS
Exactly!! But why is that? There must be a talent [learned or otherwise?] for really figuring out how to listen to oneself after the fact and constructively tackle what needs to be done to improve.
It seems very hard however to be constructive when it comes to listening to yourself on tape. But maybe it comes with practise...It's like we imagine how we sound and then believe it...but then when we hear the actuality it's awful. Huh.
Yes, you answered your own question quite clearly. Yes, the better players simply are better at *really* listening to themselves honestly and critically and learning from that and understanding what the music needs and how to get it.
Don't be fooled by the recording yourself thing though. You have to be able to hear yourself live in real time. You have to be able to fix it as it's going on. You have to have the ability to really listen to your self play as you are doing it. The recording doesn't help, it only defers. If you think you sound terrible on the recording, you probably are. But that's useless information if you can't hear that when you are playing.
My teacher teases me. When he wants to make sure I am focused, he tells me the recorder is running.
He knows it terrifies me.
Herself has sat through my recording sessions on piano. Painful experience. I get very frustrated and very angry when I make a mistake.
When I record on the box, I am very stiff and unnatural-which may be why you think you sound better when you are playing sans recorder. You probably are, because you are more relaxed and less self-conscious. Being able to leave the self-consciousness in the trunk of the car when you are performing is one of the big differences I seem to see between the really good players and guys like me.
(Silver Spear) "I hate recording myself. I always sound like cr*p."
Amen. Why do I feel that way? Because it's frozen in time. There's nothing I can do it about it now.
(Llig) "You have to be able to fix it as it's going on."
That's EXACTLY what I'm used to doing.
Live, I'm in control. I can fix it on the fly, make adjustments, etc.
Recorded, well heck, it's frozen there. Nothing I can do about it, except go back and record it again...and again...and again...
Of course, I'm never happy with it, I always hear something I can do better, so this is why I don't record myself a lot. Just plain frustrating. Recordings are frozen and to me, they demand perfection.
Thankfully, it’s a live art form. It’s not meant to be frozen under glass in the museum. It needs to be in the open, living and breathing.
Michael
You hit the nail on the head -- yes, real time. I find now that, yes, I can ID things in a reel [say speeding up that triplet here...a note not quite held long enough at the end of a phrase, slight rushing there] on *tape* and now can in fact hear them -- the danger zones I like to call them -- as I * play*....
I know there have been discussions about anticipation...perhaps THAT quality would go a long way to putting lessons learned into real time, ie, you know what's coming up, you anticipate, you move those fingers jsut a bit earlier so you *don't* rush the ornament, phrase or what have you....
often I think "setting up" for those problematic bits is maybe half the battle...intonation [or playing with it] being the other 1/2.....
I dont understand why, when I play I think my intonation is ok but if I record myself and play it back I'm often flat. Why dont my ears work on myself when I'm playing?
there must be some "cognitive" reason for this. I know there are some psychologists/researchers on this site? Anyone?
[also SS see Ilig's excellent post/point on this very question where he says the pro's/accomplished players learn to listen *on the fly* and self-correct].
If you think your intonation, phrasing, tone, anything is OK when it's not, you simply aren't listening well enough. It seems weird to point out that loads of people actually don't listen to themselves when they play, but it's true.
I suppose it can come from many things, like learning to play by where your fingers go, or simply not concentrating enough. Either way, you must get over it.
Mtodd said it all in the very first post: The better players quite simply are better at *really* listtening to themselves.
When I recorded myself on fiddle recently and played it back the first thing I noticed was the bodhran player in the background, drumming away like a maniac. I looked around - there was no-one there. It's my fingers drumming on the fingerboard and I didn't realise how pronounced it was. That's a problem of technique isn't it - I need to use a lighter touch. Also when you switch on a recorder and you falter when playing, you anticipate it when you play back and it sounds worse than it really is. I've typed that word bodhran again and the Firefox alternative spelling suggestions are Bodhidharma, Bodhisattva or boomerang - crazy!
Have you ever noticed that if you listen to an old recording of yourself playing, it often sounds better than a fresh one?
Try recording yourself playing the same tune every day for a week. Try to listen to yourself critically as you're recording, but *don't* listen to the recordings! Instead, put them aside for a month, and then go back and listen to them.
I find that when I listen to recordings of myself in a disconnected way like that, I don't have the emotional connection to the recording anymore, and I don't have all the individual foibles fresh in my mind, so I'm not looking for them to appear. When you listen to a recording immediately after recording, you focus on the mistakes, which is a negative way of listening. When I listen in a more disconnected way, it sounds better to me, but I am also able to be more critical of things that need to be improved. I also think you'll find that you improved over the course of the week, because you were listening to yourself, and being critical while you were playing. I also think that the fact that you're not going to immediately listen to the recording will take off some of the pressure of being recorded.
I agree with SWFL in the fact that recording yourself puts some pressure on to strive for perfection, and that pressure is often detrimental to your playing. However, I have noticed a difference between recording myself, and knowing that I am being recorded by somebody else (like someone whipping out a recorder at a session). Maybe just the fact that I know I'll probably never have to listen to the recording takes some of the pressure off.
Great point Rev. I can actually deal with listening to myself when someone else records it, probably because the control is gone at that point, as you pointed out. I can't go back and re-record a live session clip or something.
I think instant listening and adjusting is the only possible way to remain neutral about listening to yourself, well, or me, that's just MHO for me personally. When I do it right there, as I'm playing, there's no bias at all, it simply is what it is and requires my unbiased attention, and it gets it.
Just remember that it takes very skilled people with very complex equipment to make a good sounding recording. Tone quality doesn't come through well in home grown recordings, perhaps you are not as bad as you think you are, it is the recording quality that is substandard.....
Llig's point is the most important one in this discussion - and in most others here that I can remember.
Tape recording for the masses is only about half a century old. Before then, the best players had to listen and correct on the fly, they had no alternative. However, it should be said that such players have had good teaching, whether formal or at the pub ("that's a bum note you played there, Sean!"), where they've been taught to listen to themselves critically. Once you've acquired this ability there should be no limit to your progression - you become your own best teacher.
lazyhound, there's a flip side to that. Before there were the 78 recordings, then tape, then CDs and finally MP3s, people's perception of music was different.
You did not have "wallpaper music" or "background music" or anything like that. If you wanted to hear music, you needed to know somebody who played, and when they played, you were totally drawn in like you were watching HDTV or something.
When I first started playing gigs, any band would sound better than any record player. Not anymore.
We hear mistakes because we are used to flawless performances repeated over and over at the touch of a button.
so when we hear ourselves, we aren't comparing ourselves to the other musicians living near us any more. We are comparing ourselves to the best musicians that ever lived anywhere.
the bar is higher.
beyond that, it takes time playing music to be able to listen to yourself and everyone else in the ensamble and react to small differences in time to smooth things out.
you don't get that until you've played for years. Until then, there is just too much on your conscious mind directing your body to work the instrument to be able to pay full attention to what is happening outside of your body and instrument.
Its about training your ear, the ear needs training to recognise the difference in pitch.
Lazy, if that's the case then why are a number of older 'name' fiddlers , recorded solo, so out of tune? I could make examples but would rather not.
In a session, with pipers, or box players, the volume is often enough to drown out a lot of the fine tuning of fiddlers. IMO this is why fiddlers can get away with poor intonation. by the time they were recorded, they already have their ways set, and they already have a 'name' so that's what they sound like, take it or leave it.
Of course listening is the most important skill in music. Bar none.But isn't that obvious? excuse me if it isn't.
>>Before then, the best players had to listen and correct on the fly, they had no alternative.<<
yes they did; some of them played out of tune.
lonannas, this is part of what I was talking about in the different standards. Every time there has been a change in the medium of performance, there has been a change in the people's perception of music,
The latest change came in our lifetime with the advent of digital recording.
The old recordings were played "out of tune" because that was OK. People were so glad to hear any music at all, that even if it did bother them, they shut the hell up about it so the fella would keep playing.
it was our perception that changed as we were exposed to more clear, crisp, reproducable performances thanks to recordings
Good point Al. Recordings vary greatly. However, it is still possible to compare a recording of ones' playing with that of another. Record someone who you know is a good player. Then, on the same machine, record yourself playing the same tune. You should be able to fairly compare the two.
I bring this up because, "very skilled people with very complex equipment" can (if they wish) make anyone sound good.
Having said that I try to listen to how I sound ~ as I play ~ whether I am being recorded or not. For me that is more important.
And I suppose we should just add the usual caveat here. Many 'older' recordings weren't of people playing 'out of tune'. They were playing, quite correctly, using a different scale.
Learning to play music is 99% about learning to listen better.
(The other 1 % is all the technique stuff most of us focus 99% of our attention on.)
The difficulty in listening to yourself while playing in real time is that , to play, you have to have a target sound (the tune) in mind. So a chunk of your brain is playing the tune slightly ahead of the chunk that's orchestrating the actual playing of the tune, which is again slightly ahead of the chunk of brain that's trying to listen to yourself play. that's a lot to juggle, compared to simply listening to someone else play the tune.
I suspect this gets to the heart of what Micahel and myself usually preach on "technique" threads. The technique needed to play this music really isn't that difficult to master. But applying it well can be--because you can only make the technique do what you want if you have a very precise, comprehensive, clear sense of what the music should sound like. If you haven't learned to clearly hear pitch or lift or timing or phrasing yet, and hear it in your own playing, then all the technique in the world won't help.
The key to learning to hear yourself is slow playing. Give yourself the time to pay attention to the elements of playing while slowly gliding through a tune. Hear the aural target tune in your head, and then play s-l-o-w-l-y so you can catch your own deviations from your imagined tune.
If you can't play in tune, with solid timing and phrasing, at a slow tempo, it won't happen up tempo either.
There's been lots of talk - on here, and everywhere else that talks about trad for that matter - of the old scales, that seem to me to be fast disappearing, more's the pity. (Though that nice Kilfarboy assures me there are places where the old scales and the old playing survive.)
The old scales weren't like the notes on a keyboard. Notes would change depending on the mode, but also, they wouldn't be what we would usually recognise as arranged in semitones either.
As I say, there's lots on this, here and elsewhere. But it's a BIG subject to be going into right now ...
Just one thing - don't think for a minute that something like an accordion or a concertina can be 'in tune', at least as far as this music goes (actually, any music). The best they can do is approximate.
Some people on this thread seem to be suggesting that the invention of recording has upped the quality that people have to play to. What a huge pile of absolute w a n k.
Just in case I've picked you up wrongly, Ionannas, I know that there were *some* of the older crew who did actually play out of tune. I was referring to the majority, who simply weren't playing using a modern scale.
Michael - I very much like what you have to say on being self-critiquing in "real time" and I like Will's attempt at explaining why it is hard.
The problem is that I have never seen or heard of a training method to "get there". As we all develop our musical abilities, external input (music teacher, recording, friends etc) tell us what we are doing right or wrong and give us a chance to work on problem areas off-line. This absolutely does not replace the goal of listening to ourselves as we play and being able to assess. However - Is it such a big crutch to the point of getting in the way of acquiring that skill?
I like to go sea kayaking and I am in the process of developing skills in that area. When learning how to roll the kayak, disorientation is severe. It's very hard to be "in the moment" when the mind is trying to figure out why the hell we are not on top, breathing air. However, trainers have some drills and processes to help you calm the brain down and develop higher awareness of what is going on around you, as you are performing. I would love to see this in music too.
Maybe it comes naturally to some musicians and if not, maybe experience eventually helps us relax and slow down time to the point where we are aware of each note as we play it and not think about the next one. Until that time, and in the absence of a full-time teacher, I think a recording can serve as a sort of snapshot mirror.
I've done a bit of canoeing, not in the sea, but I think I have an idea of it. The first time I sat in a canoe my goal was just to sit in it without tipping over. It was ok really, I was a bit nervous at first, but, I got it ok. The next thing that happened was that the person I was with tipped me over. I got out ok, bruised my legs a bit and swallowed a bit of water as I rushed it, but it was ok.
Thinking about it, would watching a video of what to do in a capsize have helped me in the slightest? I think not. I don't really know what would help other than actually doing it. And I think that's the thing. You just have to do it ... play and listen, play and listen. I supose going slow would help, but really it's just listen hard. I can't think of any short cut
I *do* think recording yourself is helpful. I agree that the goal is to "play and listen". I agree that recording yourself can't teach you to listen "in real time". What it *can* do is sort of shock you into realising what it is you need to be listening to.
Then ... well, you still have to learn to listen while you play. And there's probably no short cut for that.
Yes there are short cuts, and they don't involve 'scraping away' so no wonder Llig doesn't know of any They do involve listening. However I'm not going to mention them here. They are not too difficult to find if you want to find them...
Well, one way to approach this is to focus on one aspect of your playing at a time. You can do this playing a tune, and starting off by playing slowly.
Break out each element and listen closely to it. Try not to pay much attention to the other elements at first: for example, if you're focusing on rhythm, don't worry so much about tone or intonation.
What are the elements?
the basics, in no particular order:
Tone or timbre
Volume
Pitch
Rhythm
Attack (how you start and end a note)
Phrasing
I can imagine getting some value out of recording yourself and listening to the piece over and over, listening specifically for each of these elements. Which ones are you satisfied with--that is, which ones match what you hear in your head when you imagine what you want it to sound like? Which ones need work? What specifically about it needs work?
Then play the tune again, slowly, concentrating on just one element that needs work. For pitch, it may be just one or two notes that need to be fine tuned. Or it may be that your overall position (fingering, embouchure, etc.) needs work.
The reason I stress slow playing is that it gives you time to listen more closely, in greater detail, to the nuances of what's happening. The devil's in the details, and if you want to improve, you'll have to refine those details. I've heard great players talk about the sweet nuances of pitch between c natural and c sharp, and how to use them to color a tune. I've heard great players argue ad nauseum over the subtle differences between percussive rolls and open notey rolls. To them, the subtleties aren't subtle.
Also, sometimes one element is so far off the mark that it camouflages other problems. If your intonation sucks, it can be hard to hear whether your tone is as clear as it should be, and vice versa. Attack is one of the easiest things to gloss over, and yet makes a huge difference in whether your playing sounds good or not. So it's worth going through a piece over and over, singling out one element at a time, to check for yourself whether something is on or off. It can also help to have a teacher or good player listen to and critique each element.
Of course, once your slow playing helps you improve, you'll have to work at the same nuances at tempo--momentum and timing are different at tempo, so you have to practice this too.
All with the ultimate goal of putting it all together again. This analytical approach isn't for everyone, but if you're struggling, it's one way to work through whatever is holding you back.
Just like playing. You can't listen quickly if you can't listen slowly first. Good stuff Will. That's what they had us classical kids doing back when. Grinding away, that's the only way. Doesn't matter how you grind, you still have to.
Not sure if this is what you mean, Michael, but my own experience was that I didn't really start playing until I learned to listen for everything I was doing *right* and build on that.
So yeah, there's a knack for letting the tune unfurl and just going along with it, in the moment, listening with surprise and enjoyment. And the music sounds better for it. Sessions are a great place to do this, sparked by what other players are doing, drawn into fresh turns on old tunes. I'm guessing mtodd is interested in this, too, but his original query was more about nuts and bolts of getting to that level of ability. Takes some woodshedding, even if it is just playing the tunes. It's playing them with awareness.
But you don't have to start to be a decent musician before you can, or should be doing it. You shoud be doing it right from the first moment you pic up an instrument. It's not woodshedding, it's attitude.
This is a very interesting thread to me. I am in my first year or so of really trying to learn this music, and my teacher told me to record myself a lot. At first, it was horrific and I felt like the worst player in the world, especially coming from a classical background -- I could hear where I automatically added vibrato (yes, gag) when I thought I wasn't or cut off notes where I didn't realize it, or sped up, etc., etc. However, now I try to listen to my recordings perhaps a day or two after doing them (this is not professional grade recordings, just with software on my computer, of course) and then pretending that I don't know the fiddler. Sometimes I actually am pleased, but most of the time, it just allows me to hear, rather objectively, and without berating myself, oh, I need to play more quietly or more smoothly or more in tune, etc., etc. It's been fun and has really (in my humble opinion) helped me improve a bit faster than without the recording. Waiting a day or two helps me not beat myself up quite so much too. Just my 2 cents...
I think that when you are a beginner, recording yourself can have its advantages. But just like sticky tape on your fiddle finger board, it can be a crutch. In order to any good at all, you have to get to a stage where listening to a recording of yourself does not give you any surprises. It shouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.
I agree it *shouldn't*, Michael. But I still find it a good reality check every now and then. From time to time, I can get to kidding myself that I'm better than I actually am.
Yes, the recording doesn't lie. It allows us to hear our sound from a different perspective. Like the voice we can be 'too close' to get the fuller picture.To hear it as others hear us..
It also means of course that we can listen more than once, so small mistakes missed the first time can be spotted on repeat listens.
Personally, I think it's not really an argument. If you're open to hearing yourself recorded and it helps, then do it. Just as videotaping yourself when performing sports, in my case, dressage, helps pinpoint areas where one needs work is very beneficial. From that perspective, I can say that even the "good" riders or "advanced" riders that refuse to be videotaped from time to time take a lot longer to correct their bad habits than the ones who are open to it, and I'm willing to bet that it's the same with the advanced fiddle players, no matter how good they "think" they are. Since I take lessons from one of the best Irish fiddlers, I'll take his word for it...
Yes, SWFL, and I forgot to mention that part. No matter how badly I play, I'm having fun (much to the chagrin of anyone listening). Otherwise, it's not worth it! Teasing is all part of it, isn't it? Most people tease with a smile on their face.
Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Remember the shock the first time you heard yourself on tape as you learned fiddle or another traditional instrument? Perhaps shockingly good in some people's cases, but for many of us it was probably more depressing than invigorating.
I'm wondering why it's possible to listen to some great fiddle player [for example] and yet we don't hear the half of it...we get one level perhaps. Then the more we know about the difficulty of the craft, other levels reveal themselves in the playing as the years go by. And yet -- how to incorporate those deepr levels into our own playing? the problem being...how to honestly *hear* ourselves it seems to me.
There always seems to be this odd *disjunct* between what we hear in OTHERS [professional] playing and yet it's so difficult for to hear at the same levels/with the same critical discernment in our own playing. Is it that we're afraid to hear ourselves? Or simply can't? Does ego get in the way? Is it a skill that's honed as you go and become better ...so as you become a better, more critical listener that carries over into one's playing?
It's as if when our own playing is concerned we have this "idea" in our brain of how we sound, but the shock comes when we really hear how we sound [ie, on tape]. Are better/more talented players simply better at *really* listtening to themselves honestly and critically and learning from that and understanding what the music needs and how to get it?
It always seems to be a carrot and horse conundrum. Listen to others and yourself perhaps. Sure, but how? And then what?
What have others experiences been?
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I hate recording myself. I always sound like cr*p. Once I get through the initial pain and horror of listening to it I can then listen critically and sort out where I can improve. Recording oneself is one of the most beneficial things ever in that regard. I can hear stuff, the good, the bad, and the ugly, that I don't hear when just playing away.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
SS
Exactly!! But why is that? There must be a talent [learned or otherwise?] for really figuring out how to listen to oneself after the fact and constructively tackle what needs to be done to improve.
It seems very hard however to be constructive when it comes to listening to yourself on tape. But maybe it comes with practise...It's like we imagine how we sound and then believe it...but then when we hear the actuality it's awful. Huh.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Yes, you answered your own question quite clearly. Yes, the better players simply are better at *really* listening to themselves honestly and critically and learning from that and understanding what the music needs and how to get it.
Don't be fooled by the recording yourself thing though. You have to be able to hear yourself live in real time. You have to be able to fix it as it's going on. You have to have the ability to really listen to your self play as you are doing it. The recording doesn't help, it only defers. If you think you sound terrible on the recording, you probably are. But that's useless information if you can't hear that when you are playing.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
It's a physiological fact that when you blow into a flute, your ears go numb.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Finbar Saunders2
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
My teacher teases me. When he wants to make sure I am focused, he tells me the recorder is running.
He knows it terrifies me.
Herself has sat through my recording sessions on piano. Painful experience. I get very frustrated and very angry when I make a mistake.
When I record on the box, I am very stiff and unnatural-which may be why you think you sound better when you are playing sans recorder. You probably are, because you are more relaxed and less self-conscious. Being able to leave the self-consciousness in the trunk of the car when you are performing is one of the big differences I seem to see between the really good players and guys like me.
It is one of my challenges learning box.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Wow. Weighty stuff!
(Silver Spear) "I hate recording myself. I always sound like cr*p."
Amen. Why do I feel that way? Because it's frozen in time. There's nothing I can do it about it now.
(Llig) "You have to be able to fix it as it's going on."
That's EXACTLY what I'm used to doing.
Live, I'm in control. I can fix it on the fly, make adjustments, etc.
Recorded, well heck, it's frozen there. Nothing I can do about it, except go back and record it again...and again...and again...
Of course, I'm never happy with it, I always hear something I can do better, so this is why I don't record myself a lot. Just plain frustrating. Recordings are frozen and to me, they demand perfection.
Thankfully, it’s a live art form. It’s not meant to be frozen under glass in the museum. It needs to be in the open, living and breathing.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Michael
You hit the nail on the head -- yes, real time. I find now that, yes, I can ID things in a reel [say speeding up that triplet here...a note not quite held long enough at the end of a phrase, slight rushing there] on *tape* and now can in fact hear them -- the danger zones I like to call them -- as I * play*....
I know there have been discussions about anticipation...perhaps THAT quality would go a long way to putting lessons learned into real time, ie, you know what's coming up, you anticipate, you move those fingers jsut a bit earlier so you *don't* rush the ornament, phrase or what have you....
often I think "setting up" for those problematic bits is maybe half the battle...intonation [or playing with it] being the other 1/2.....
tape can help in that regard
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I dont understand why, when I play I think my intonation is ok but if I record myself and play it back I'm often flat. Why dont my ears work on myself when I'm playing?
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by session savage
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
there must be some "cognitive" reason for this. I know there are some psychologists/researchers on this site? Anyone?
[also SS see Ilig's excellent post/point on this very question where he says the pro's/accomplished players learn to listen *on the fly* and self-correct].
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
If you think your intonation, phrasing, tone, anything is OK when it's not, you simply aren't listening well enough. It seems weird to point out that loads of people actually don't listen to themselves when they play, but it's true.
I suppose it can come from many things, like learning to play by where your fingers go, or simply not concentrating enough. Either way, you must get over it.
Mtodd said it all in the very first post: The better players quite simply are better at *really* listtening to themselves.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
When I recorded myself on fiddle recently and played it back the first thing I noticed was the bodhran player in the background, drumming away like a maniac. I looked around - there was no-one there. It's my fingers drumming on the fingerboard and I didn't realise how pronounced it was. That's a problem of technique isn't it - I need to use a lighter touch. Also when you switch on a recorder and you falter when playing, you anticipate it when you play back and it sounds worse than it really is. I've typed that word bodhran again and the Firefox alternative spelling suggestions are Bodhidharma, Bodhisattva or boomerang - crazy!
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Have you ever noticed that if you listen to an old recording of yourself playing, it often sounds better than a fresh one?
Try recording yourself playing the same tune every day for a week. Try to listen to yourself critically as you're recording, but *don't* listen to the recordings! Instead, put them aside for a month, and then go back and listen to them.
I find that when I listen to recordings of myself in a disconnected way like that, I don't have the emotional connection to the recording anymore, and I don't have all the individual foibles fresh in my mind, so I'm not looking for them to appear. When you listen to a recording immediately after recording, you focus on the mistakes, which is a negative way of listening. When I listen in a more disconnected way, it sounds better to me, but I am also able to be more critical of things that need to be improved. I also think you'll find that you improved over the course of the week, because you were listening to yourself, and being critical while you were playing. I also think that the fact that you're not going to immediately listen to the recording will take off some of the pressure of being recorded.
I agree with SWFL in the fact that recording yourself puts some pressure on to strive for perfection, and that pressure is often detrimental to your playing. However, I have noticed a difference between recording myself, and knowing that I am being recorded by somebody else (like someone whipping out a recorder at a session). Maybe just the fact that I know I'll probably never have to listen to the recording takes some of the pressure off.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Great point Rev. I can actually deal with listening to myself when someone else records it, probably because the control is gone at that point, as you pointed out. I can't go back and re-record a live session clip or something.
I think instant listening and adjusting is the only possible way to remain neutral about listening to yourself, well, or me, that's just MHO for me personally. When I do it right there, as I'm playing, there's no bias at all, it simply is what it is and requires my unbiased attention, and it gets it.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Just remember that it takes very skilled people with very complex equipment to make a good sounding recording. Tone quality doesn't come through well in home grown recordings, perhaps you are not as bad as you think you are, it is the recording quality that is substandard.....
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Llig's point is the most important one in this discussion - and in most others here that I can remember.
Tape recording for the masses is only about half a century old. Before then, the best players had to listen and correct on the fly, they had no alternative. However, it should be said that such players have had good teaching, whether formal or at the pub ("that's a bum note you played there, Sean!"), where they've been taught to listen to themselves critically. Once you've acquired this ability there should be no limit to your progression - you become your own best teacher.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
lazyhound, there's a flip side to that. Before there were the 78 recordings, then tape, then CDs and finally MP3s, people's perception of music was different.
You did not have "wallpaper music" or "background music" or anything like that. If you wanted to hear music, you needed to know somebody who played, and when they played, you were totally drawn in like you were watching HDTV or something.
When I first started playing gigs, any band would sound better than any record player. Not anymore.
We hear mistakes because we are used to flawless performances repeated over and over at the touch of a button.
so when we hear ourselves, we aren't comparing ourselves to the other musicians living near us any more. We are comparing ourselves to the best musicians that ever lived anywhere.
the bar is higher.
beyond that, it takes time playing music to be able to listen to yourself and everyone else in the ensamble and react to small differences in time to smooth things out.
you don't get that until you've played for years. Until then, there is just too much on your conscious mind directing your body to work the instrument to be able to pay full attention to what is happening outside of your body and instrument.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Its about training your ear, the ear needs training to recognise the difference in pitch.
Lazy, if that's the case then why are a number of older 'name' fiddlers , recorded solo, so out of tune? I could make examples but would rather not.
In a session, with pipers, or box players, the volume is often enough to drown out a lot of the fine tuning of fiddlers. IMO this is why fiddlers can get away with poor intonation. by the time they were recorded, they already have their ways set, and they already have a 'name' so that's what they sound like, take it or leave it.
Of course listening is the most important skill in music. Bar none.But isn't that obvious? excuse me if it isn't.
>>Before then, the best players had to listen and correct on the fly, they had no alternative.<<
yes they did; some of them played out of tune.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
lonannas, this is part of what I was talking about in the different standards. Every time there has been a change in the medium of performance, there has been a change in the people's perception of music,
The latest change came in our lifetime with the advent of digital recording.
The old recordings were played "out of tune" because that was OK. People were so glad to hear any music at all, that even if it did bother them, they shut the hell up about it so the fella would keep playing.
it was our perception that changed as we were exposed to more clear, crisp, reproducable performances thanks to recordings
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I agree Nate.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Good point Al. Recordings vary greatly. However, it is still possible to compare a recording of ones' playing with that of another. Record someone who you know is a good player. Then, on the same machine, record yourself playing the same tune. You should be able to fairly compare the two.
I bring this up because, "very skilled people with very complex equipment" can (if they wish) make anyone sound good.
Having said that I try to listen to how I sound ~ as I play ~ whether I am being recorded or not. For me that is more important.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
And I suppose we should just add the usual caveat here. Many 'older' recordings weren't of people playing 'out of tune'. They were playing, quite correctly, using a different scale.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Learning to play music is 99% about learning to listen better.
(The other 1 % is all the technique stuff most of us focus 99% of our attention on.)
The difficulty in listening to yourself while playing in real time is that , to play, you have to have a target sound (the tune) in mind. So a chunk of your brain is playing the tune slightly ahead of the chunk that's orchestrating the actual playing of the tune, which is again slightly ahead of the chunk of brain that's trying to listen to yourself play. that's a lot to juggle, compared to simply listening to someone else play the tune.
I suspect this gets to the heart of what Micahel and myself usually preach on "technique" threads. The technique needed to play this music really isn't that difficult to master. But applying it well can be--because you can only make the technique do what you want if you have a very precise, comprehensive, clear sense of what the music should sound like. If you haven't learned to clearly hear pitch or lift or timing or phrasing yet, and hear it in your own playing, then all the technique in the world won't help.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
P.S.
The key to learning to hear yourself is slow playing. Give yourself the time to pay attention to the elements of playing while slowly gliding through a tune. Hear the aural target tune in your head, and then play s-l-o-w-l-y so you can catch your own deviations from your imagined tune.
If you can't play in tune, with solid timing and phrasing, at a slow tempo, it won't happen up tempo either.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
''They were playing, quite correctly, using a different scale''
And what scale would that be? Why would say, one particular player, be playing 'in tune' on one instrument' and 'out of tune' on the fiddle?
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
There's been lots of talk - on here, and everywhere else that talks about trad for that matter - of the old scales, that seem to me to be fast disappearing, more's the pity. (Though that nice Kilfarboy assures me there are places where the old scales and the old playing survive.)
The old scales weren't like the notes on a keyboard. Notes would change depending on the mode, but also, they wouldn't be what we would usually recognise as arranged in semitones either.
As I say, there's lots on this, here and elsewhere. But it's a BIG subject to be going into right now ...
Just one thing - don't think for a minute that something like an accordion or a concertina can be 'in tune', at least as far as this music goes (actually, any music). The best they can do is approximate.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Some people on this thread seem to be suggesting that the invention of recording has upped the quality that people have to play to. What a huge pile of absolute w a n k.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Just in case I've picked you up wrongly, Ionannas, I know that there were *some* of the older crew who did actually play out of tune. I was referring to the majority, who simply weren't playing using a modern scale.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
correct
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Michael - I very much like what you have to say on being self-critiquing in "real time" and I like Will's attempt at explaining why it is hard.
The problem is that I have never seen or heard of a training method to "get there". As we all develop our musical abilities, external input (music teacher, recording, friends etc) tell us what we are doing right or wrong and give us a chance to work on problem areas off-line. This absolutely does not replace the goal of listening to ourselves as we play and being able to assess. However - Is it such a big crutch to the point of getting in the way of acquiring that skill?
I like to go sea kayaking and I am in the process of developing skills in that area. When learning how to roll the kayak, disorientation is severe. It's very hard to be "in the moment" when the mind is trying to figure out why the hell we are not on top, breathing air. However, trainers have some drills and processes to help you calm the brain down and develop higher awareness of what is going on around you, as you are performing. I would love to see this in music too.
Maybe it comes naturally to some musicians and if not, maybe experience eventually helps us relax and slow down time to the point where we are aware of each note as we play it and not think about the next one. Until that time, and in the absence of a full-time teacher, I think a recording can serve as a sort of snapshot mirror.
Avi
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by improziv
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I've done a bit of canoeing, not in the sea, but I think I have an idea of it. The first time I sat in a canoe my goal was just to sit in it without tipping over. It was ok really, I was a bit nervous at first, but, I got it ok. The next thing that happened was that the person I was with tipped me over. I got out ok, bruised my legs a bit and swallowed a bit of water as I rushed it, but it was ok.
Thinking about it, would watching a video of what to do in a capsize have helped me in the slightest? I think not. I don't really know what would help other than actually doing it. And I think that's the thing. You just have to do it ... play and listen, play and listen. I supose going slow would help, but really it's just listen hard. I can't think of any short cut
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I *do* think recording yourself is helpful. I agree that the goal is to "play and listen". I agree that recording yourself can't teach you to listen "in real time". What it *can* do is sort of shock you into realising what it is you need to be listening to.
Then ... well, you still have to learn to listen while you play. And there's probably no short cut for that.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Yes there are short cuts, and they don't involve 'scraping away' so no wonder Llig doesn't know of any
They do involve listening. However I'm not going to mention them here. They are not too difficult to find if you want to find them...
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Well, one way to approach this is to focus on one aspect of your playing at a time. You can do this playing a tune, and starting off by playing slowly.
Break out each element and listen closely to it. Try not to pay much attention to the other elements at first: for example, if you're focusing on rhythm, don't worry so much about tone or intonation.
What are the elements?
the basics, in no particular order:
Tone or timbre
Volume
Pitch
Rhythm
Attack (how you start and end a note)
Phrasing
I can imagine getting some value out of recording yourself and listening to the piece over and over, listening specifically for each of these elements. Which ones are you satisfied with--that is, which ones match what you hear in your head when you imagine what you want it to sound like? Which ones need work? What specifically about it needs work?
Then play the tune again, slowly, concentrating on just one element that needs work. For pitch, it may be just one or two notes that need to be fine tuned. Or it may be that your overall position (fingering, embouchure, etc.) needs work.
The reason I stress slow playing is that it gives you time to listen more closely, in greater detail, to the nuances of what's happening. The devil's in the details, and if you want to improve, you'll have to refine those details. I've heard great players talk about the sweet nuances of pitch between c natural and c sharp, and how to use them to color a tune. I've heard great players argue ad nauseum over the subtle differences between percussive rolls and open notey rolls. To them, the subtleties aren't subtle.
Also, sometimes one element is so far off the mark that it camouflages other problems. If your intonation sucks, it can be hard to hear whether your tone is as clear as it should be, and vice versa. Attack is one of the easiest things to gloss over, and yet makes a huge difference in whether your playing sounds good or not. So it's worth going through a piece over and over, singling out one element at a time, to check for yourself whether something is on or off. It can also help to have a teacher or good player listen to and critique each element.
Of course, once your slow playing helps you improve, you'll have to work at the same nuances at tempo--momentum and timing are different at tempo, so you have to practice this too.
All with the ultimate goal of putting it all together again. This analytical approach isn't for everyone, but if you're struggling, it's one way to work through whatever is holding you back.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Just like playing. You can't listen quickly if you can't listen slowly first. Good stuff Will. That's what they had us classical kids doing back when. Grinding away, that's the only way. Doesn't matter how you grind, you still have to.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
'how' = classic vs. whatever. Keep those worms in the can, please.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I'm not talking about being "self-critiquing in "real time"".
I'm talking about enjoying it
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Not sure if this is what you mean, Michael, but my own experience was that I didn't really start playing until I learned to listen for everything I was doing *right* and build on that.
So yeah, there's a knack for letting the tune unfurl and just going along with it, in the moment, listening with surprise and enjoyment. And the music sounds better for it. Sessions are a great place to do this, sparked by what other players are doing, drawn into fresh turns on old tunes. I'm guessing mtodd is interested in this, too, but his original query was more about nuts and bolts of getting to that level of ability. Takes some woodshedding, even if it is just playing the tunes. It's playing them with awareness.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Yeah, it's exactly what I mean.
But you don't have to start to be a decent musician before you can, or should be doing it. You shoud be doing it right from the first moment you pic up an instrument. It's not woodshedding, it's attitude.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Agreed.
That's how I learned.
By woodshedding, I mean playing many hours, obsessively, with "attitude."
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
This is a very interesting thread to me. I am in my first year or so of really trying to learn this music, and my teacher told me to record myself a lot. At first, it was horrific and I felt like the worst player in the world, especially coming from a classical background -- I could hear where I automatically added vibrato (yes, gag) when I thought I wasn't or cut off notes where I didn't realize it, or sped up, etc., etc. However, now I try to listen to my recordings perhaps a day or two after doing them (this is not professional grade recordings, just with software on my computer, of course) and then pretending that I don't know the fiddler. Sometimes I actually am pleased, but most of the time, it just allows me to hear, rather objectively, and without berating myself, oh, I need to play more quietly or more smoothly or more in tune, etc., etc. It's been fun and has really (in my humble opinion) helped me improve a bit faster than without the recording. Waiting a day or two helps me not beat myself up quite so much too. Just my 2 cents...
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by swillybay
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I think that when you are a beginner, recording yourself can have its advantages. But just like sticky tape on your fiddle finger board, it can be a crutch. In order to any good at all, you have to get to a stage where listening to a recording of yourself does not give you any surprises. It shouldn't be telling you anything you don't already know.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
I agree it *shouldn't*, Michael. But I still find it a good reality check every now and then. From time to time, I can get to kidding myself that I'm better than I actually am.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Yes, the recording doesn't lie. It allows us to hear our sound from a different perspective. Like the voice we can be 'too close' to get the fuller picture.To hear it as others hear us..
It also means of course that we can listen more than once, so small mistakes missed the first time can be spotted on repeat listens.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Personally, I think it's not really an argument. If you're open to hearing yourself recorded and it helps, then do it. Just as videotaping yourself when performing sports, in my case, dressage, helps pinpoint areas where one needs work is very beneficial. From that perspective, I can say that even the "good" riders or "advanced" riders that refuse to be videotaped from time to time take a lot longer to correct their bad habits than the ones who are open to it, and I'm willing to bet that it's the same with the advanced fiddle players, no matter how good they "think" they are. Since I take lessons from one of the best Irish fiddlers, I'll take his word for it...
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by swillybay
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Oops! It's early here AND is very beneficial.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by swillybay
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Sure swilly, it's like athletes do, they watch the tape and go over their motions, baseball pitchers, American football quarterbacks, etc.
Of course, they make $5 million a year, and I make free pints, so the amount of obsession is proportional...
No no, I tease. If you love it, you can't but obsess, even while having the time of your life.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Yes, SWFL, and I forgot to mention that part. No matter how badly I play, I'm having fun (much to the chagrin of anyone listening). Otherwise, it's not worth it! Teasing is all part of it, isn't it? Most people tease with a smile on their face.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by swillybay
Re: Listening to learn & learning to listen...
Amen! RIght on swilly! Hear hear! [thumps bar]
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler