Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Its a hard one to call. Would it be possible for someone to explain to me how does one lose there music? Or maybe is it just a case that they didn't really have it in the first place and were just faking it for the people they considered friends and heroes letting on they respected there opinions and letting on they had the same taste in what "music" really is.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
hahahaa! i know who posted this!!! haha!
anyway, back to the question. I love gavins playing from the old days, first album and the de danann stuff. but now its all a bit style and no substance. a bit messy sometimes, too many notes flying around. had it and lost it.
carty plays like brian rooney, but nowhere near as good. plays out of tune, though if people still play well this doesn't matter for me (too much, though they have to be pretty good!!). can certainly play fiddle, but it is on the shoulders of a borrowed style, ie: brian rooneys. in this case, thinking they are better than they are, but still good.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Robert, im not "taking the bait." Taking the bait would have gone something like this (i assume): "oh for fark sake, another mindless thread from another mindless troll with a burnt ego just because he couldn't sit in on a session with frankie/john! how dare you say such a horrendus thing about two such respected conoisseurs of our fine music....... blah blah".
instead im sticking it to him/her!!! lets see if they reply
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I have never seen a toilet fake a flush before. although i have seen a toilet in perfectly good working order but then all of a sudden fill up with poo!
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I didn't even read the thread yet, I just reacted at the title. That was sarcastic, by the way. If either of them are reading I would happily listen to either of you fellers play for hours and hours. True bowmen.
Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worse fiddler?
I am confused by the title. Worst implies a comarison of more than just 2 fiddlers. I assume you meant who is the worse fiddler ~ Mr. Gavin or Mr. Carty?
Is this the question,
"someone explain to me how does one lose there music?"
& this the implied answer;
"they didn't really have it in the first place"
If so is it safe to infer ~ neither one was very good (to begin with) & now each is getting worse. Thanks in advance skinnylillegs.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
benhall1 I believe there are very non - boring members posting as well. This thread allowed me to see what I might have missed recently I am now reading this thread.
Frankie- the future of irish music
Posted on September 30th 2008 by pamplemousse
ttp://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19250
skinnylillegs do you continue to listen to the 2 fiddlers?
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Am I seeing a pattern emerging here? Moori makes a profile to post one thing slagging off musicians, and then skinny does the same thing. How awfully interesting skinny..really, really interesting. Lame.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
... the moral of this story, dear people, is, never make a go of The Music and never become well known (famous) ... because when you do, you're open to all this kind of silly shoite that can go on on internet sites, unfortunately such as this one. We've probably all been guilty at some stage or other of voicing things on here that if we are honest we probably regret (too late) ... but I guess there are those who want to hit thesession with a bang with no intention of hanging around. Create a stink and run. It is, as Ben says, bluudy boring ... ho hum
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
bb if you are saying people are creating fake memberships doesn't that render their comments irrelevant? Or am I missing something?
skinnylillegs are you another member? If so why not pick one or the other?
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
lol. this is funny. i also know who made this thread... i think. but i do also think john is very like brian rooney!!!! thats all il say, ive been getin into too many arguments on this thing!! lol.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
The tone seems to be sinking around here! Shouldn't these kids be doing homework or something? What about on-line gaming? or try getting out in the fresh air? perhaps learning to play an instrument, or some tunes...
Ok Moori's thread actually had some musical relevance in so far as there is a common perception amongst musicians I play with that some people play 'too' fast and 'spoil' the music, not that I agree, but then I've been accused of the same in my younger days. But this one? Can anyone actually turn this into a musical discussion? about, say, Irish music? or would that be asking too much?
I can see that there could be a point regarding players imitating others slavishly and not putting their own mark on their music, clones.
How do we avoid this in our own playing? any specific things we do?
I like to learn from other instruments. I listen to a lot of concertina for example and try to incorporate some of that in my fiddling.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"Can anyone actually turn this into a musical discussion? about, say, Irish music?"
Ok, to offer another take on the topic, let me pose a more amicable version of the question: Who do you feel more dissapointed by in terms of direction of musical development/career, JC or FG?
The basis for the question is this: both were exceptional young musicians. Frankie's first album, early De Dannan, the flute album Up and Away - all great recordings. Now he seems to have moved towards cross-polinated styles of trazz and alike, arrival of the queen of sheeba etc. Even reaching new depths of poor taste with christams albums.
John is a different kettle of fish. He seems to have almost abandoned his origins as a banjo player, focusing in on the fiddle. Before you all jump in an say "well he did release a new banjo album" I know. I didn't think much of it, as a good percentage of the album was taken up with nonsense on the tenor guitar.
There is also a sense of over-exposure with the two of them. How many albums of them do we need? Carty records seem to come out bi-monthly at this stage, and one issue I'd have with this is the repoitoire doesn't seem to change. How many times has Carty released the Sligo Maid, or his "timeless" (direct quote from his website) composition Seanamac tube station? Most of the tunes on the album with Matt have been recorded by him before as well.
It also begs the question: are you only as good as your last gig? If that was applied to these two musicians, then I would say they weren't that good at all. However, if you take the body of their work, and bear in mind how the started off, you'd have to say they were great.
Gavin is a better fiddle player than Carty. Rooney's way better than both of them. Carty, IMHO, is the best banjo player I've heard. He may not be as 'important' as others, like McKenna or Flanagan, but his technique, swing and sense of variation are the best I've heard on a banjo. His fiddle playing does nothing for me, so this whole topic only makes me sad for the fact they were so good and so inspirational to begin with, but just aren't now.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
What's really funny is that both fellas can play rings around anyone who's actually bothered to post on here with their whiny nonsense, myself included. Whatever happened to that fine Celtic grasp on irony? Ah well...
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
swfl, how can you possibly comment on the standard of musicians posting here anonymously? When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME (but U especially).
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"both fellas can play rings around anyone who's actually bothered to post on here "
I sure this is very true but there's no harm in people....even those who might be non muso lay people... making constructive criticism and comments re professional musicians who are out there in the public eye.
However, the way that the initial question is worded does not not really encourage or allow for this and probably wasn't the intention of the poster. Unfortunately.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Personally I found much of de dannan generally not to my taste. Especially the Beatles covers. I like Frankie's traditional stuff but the rest? again not to my taste. But really, the man is a professional musician who has been playing an awful long time. He is quite entitled to 1] play what he chooses, 2] earn a living. Once again, if we don't like a thread, a session, or a musician's playing then we simply can vote with our feet.
I can't really fathom what purpose there is in criticism. What do we gain? Does any one think Frankie is going to read this? or care a hoot what we think? and why would he?
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion but I agree that much of the time there's nothing to be gained by "voicing it" and sometimes it's really more appropriate to "keep one's own counsel"
I don't suppose for one momemt that Frankie really worries too much about critics. At his stage of his career, why should he? In any case, he seems to be doing "Very well, thank you!"
In the earlier stages of an artist's career, journalistic and musical reviews may be more significant and I'm sure all musicans enjoy favourable reviews etc. However, most learn that "good or bad" criticism should always be taken with a "pinch of salt".
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Frankie has endured a lot of criticism throughout his career. As soon as he started breaking boundaries he got it in the neck. I imagine by this time its water off a ducks back.
If we can gain or aid others through the use of criticism as a tool then fair enough, if it is a means to an end. But an end in itself?
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Skip, if anyone wishes to prove they are a better fiddler than either of these gentlemen simply need post clips of themselves as evidence. We'll be happy to weigh it. The two gentlemen in question already have plenty of evidence available.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
no-one here is tryin to prove that they are better than any of these two gentlemen. if it was a case of not being able to pass judgement on them if we are not better than them on their respective instruments then that is absurd. people are still free to pass their own judgement on the two. if it was as you say swfl 'oh you are not as good as them so how can you say (in you're own opinion of course) that they are bad', then you could also put forward the argument that who are we to say that they are any good? whether people are good musicians themselves doesn't necessarily come into it, a good knowledge of music and experience does. you confusing a question focussing solely on these two musicians with people comparing themselves to them, which this isn't. of course people have certain opinions on musicians that others don't agree with, and thats normal of any walk of life, its better than being a sycophant. whats the point in that?
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
nicely put fiddleruairi.
swfl, I find it a little strange you would make that comment anyway. Hyperthetically, say there was someone out there "better" than either of them, what on earth makes you think they would feel the need the need to "prove" themselves to anyone, let alone yourself and the collective body of posters on this site? And what makes you think you could "weigh" them? Delusions of grandeur perhaps......
I think you'd be better to look at this site for what it is - a bit of fun that is of little or no consquence to the music at all. None of the comments on this topic, or any other topic, should be, or will be, taken at all seriously by the related musicians. Nothing I say will affect FG or JC from doing what they do, and why should it?
I think any musician who is comparible to the aforementioned fiddlers would shiver at the thought of posting their music on here for the scrutiny of either anonymous antagonists (like myself) and rank amateurs (like yourself).
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I note that the original poster simply dropped an inflammatory bomb, and then stepped back to watch the feathers fly (save the one reference to toilets). And as usual the folks began clucking and pecking away.
Predictable.
Why can't anyone simply qualify their remarks, when it is an unprovable or an esthetic matter, with "In my humbe opinion,"? At least they will not sound like they are judging better or worse about a matter of taste or a point of view.
Of course, that is what started this whole thing, one poster of unknown backgropund and musicological experience - I looked at their empty bio - waving a red flag at the bull (for what ever jollies he/she presumably gets from saying offensive things and thrilling to others being upset by it. Else why would they do it?)
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Significance to the PURSUIT of the music for for musicians, perhaps. It depends on one's definition of significance or impact is, I suppose.
I know that I have learned a few things worth learning here, and it is a good source for searching out names and recordings of tunes. I even found a session near me.
All valid, but I believe I may see your point as well, and would agree.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
If only that were true. Many people come here, directed to the session from many places. The fact is that they go away with impressions from this site in their heads. Its OK for folk living within the tradition to scorn the effect sites have, but the printed word is very powerful. Try Mien Kampf, , Mao's little red book. Words on paper.. but with a huge effect on the world.
People can go away from here with ideas that can help them or hinder them, which is which? To deny the effect of our words is to deny reality.
Not only our words but our attitudes effect everyone that encounters them. The butterfly spreads its wings.
Internet sites like this can have powerful repercussions in the real world, businesses made or ruined. peoples musical efforts badly stunted by poor advice , and all the rest.
I certainly don't think FG , for example, is going to be harmed by words here, but others may well be.
We are all responsible for our action and our words, and the consequences of our words. Do not be fooled otherwise. Mao's little red book, Hitler's Mien Kampf were just words. Do you think Mao was not responsible for the 'cultural revolution'?
I'm the first to accept that my examples are extreme, but they make a point.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Ioannas,
Just to add a counter balance to your argument, I can't really see the lines of comparison you are making with your examples. For instance Mao's little book. Most of the quotations in it are actually fairly unclear. In fact, prior to 1978 many Chinese actually avoided police touble by giving an ambiguous quote to justify their actions. The WORDS in the book weren't the significant aspect of 'oppression', it was the fact that all Chienese citizens were forced to own, read, and by the latter part of Mao's life, carry on their person a copy of the book. No no-one is suggesting that all traditional musicians read everything in the session.org and take it as gospel. Far from it. People read what they want, take from it how they want, and form their own opinions in their own way.
As for the comparison to Hitler's Mien Kampf, I would only comment by directing you to Goodwin's law.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Having an opinion on someone's music is fair enough, express it here if you must. However, as someone has said earlier, at least do the decent thing and qualify your statement; then we can all discuss and decide whether your opinion is worth sh*t or otherwise.
No-one need prove themselves, as far as I can see; you don't have to be a great player to pass judgement on someone else. However it helps if you know what you're talking about so that when someone asks "why don't you like such-and-such's playing?" you can give them a sensible answer. It's not really enough to say "because they've copied so-and-so's style"; that's pure laziness and sounds like a regurgitation of someone else's throwaway remark. What is it you think they've copied? Does it sound better or worse? Are they rote-copying tunes or just the odd roll here and there?
Naming and shaming on a website is a bit sad, if you ask me. I have these kinds of discussions with my mates all the time in the pub and, in my opinion, that's where they're best kept.
Don't forget, this stuff could be here long after you and I are gone; choose your words carefully.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I am a fiddler and I'm worse than both John Carty and Frankie Gavin - so much worse, that I render the question of which of them is the worse enitrely insignificant. In fact, I'm one of the worse fiddlers I've ever met. I'm not being particularly hard on myself - I took it up 4 years ago, aged 30, and don't work very hard at it, so it's not surprising that I'm not that good. However, I enjoy it, and I play it in public seldom enough that it doesn't upset anyone - at least, not enough to elicit any audible protest.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Skip
There was no comparison with mien kampf, or maos little red book. I was just pointing out the power of the printed word.
One point being we are responsible for the effects of our words, whether written down, or spoken.They are actions and they have effects.
>>People read what they want, take from it how they want, and form their own opinions in their own way>>
To some extent, depending on the mental health of the reader. But you are assuming that everyone who reads these words is in a position to judge. You might be joking, someone might take you seriously. That's a communication breakdown. As the author it is our obligation to be as clear as we can, using the limited tools type etc. we have.
You might think its all a bit of fun, after all, who takes the session seriously? The fact is that some people do.
Just recently a young man was on a high building. some people yelled 'jump' they were joking, I hope, he jumped. He's dead.
Ok , its not life and death on the session.... but its a warning to us all... be careful what you say., Our words DO have effects.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Hilarious!
Yes, you get on here and cry and whine about famous musicians. I say they're probably better than all you whiners, then I simply state a logical and rational position.
If you think they stink, great! You have an opinion! With that, you also get egg roll and fried rice!
You're better than they are? OK! Let's see!
Logic. Reason. Two things which have no place on an internet forum, obviously.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
judging form your last commetn swfl, you're right. no logic, no reason. obviously you don't READ other comments. you pick out a few words and make one up in your head. read my last one, cause i feel i'd just be repeating myself.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I presume you mean Godwin's Law?
Reminds me of a lesser known law, which truly worked a few years ago. Picture it as being around 1990, in the UK. The law stated that, if you got 5 males between the ages of 28 and 35 in a pub talking together, it would be 12 minutes or less before at least one started reciting a Monty Python sketch.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
There are heaps of really amazing musicians who have accounts here - but theyve been scared away by all the nonesense and lack of knowledge on the board.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
What a stupid question, the are both brilliant fiddlers. Well - I liked mr. Gavin better, in the 'old' days, when he played a bit slower, but still a great fiddler. Mr. Carthy is a great fiddler too - clone or not - aren't we all more or less clones of someone??? I think it is a question of 'taste' who you like. By the way I'm a banjoplayer........
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Wow - the mission to find the edge of a flat Earth carries on, even now!
In fairnesss, some good points made (IMHO) although the reference to Godwin's law left me puzzled. I believe I see the meaning of the Law, but fail to see its relevancy here, as far as contributiing anything to the discussion.
Still batting the ball of opinion back and forth, some made the now-traditional point about folk who post without reading others postings carefully first, the scatalogical references came out rather late this time (good on you, lads!), Maybe it is time to agree to disagree? For God's sakes, a banjoplayer even got into the conversation!! Bejeezus!!
I now leave you to take on a task far more relevant to my pursuit of ITM, and of more consequence to the musical world at large.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Sorry ruari, which part of your post are you referring to, when you called me a sycophant or the other rambling incoherent part where you made no sense?
If you say they both stink, great! Woo pee dee doo. Opinions are like posteriors, everybody's got one.
You're better than them? OK, anyone who hasn’t played with you doesn't believe you.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
haha! sorry there swfl, but i actually dont need to waste my time arguing with you because you just proved how immature and pathetic you are.
i am actually frightened at how badly you interpreted my post! first of all i did not call you a sycophant. i said that if people dont like these two gentlemen, than thats fine. then i said that in every walk of life there are people who wont have the same opinions. that is better than being sycophantic. just in case you are wondering that is a statement, not a comment directed at you.
also, did i say that i was better than them??? hmmm let me think...no i dont recall that one. in fact, i dont recall anyone saying that they are better. i know im not better than either of them but that doesnt mean i'm not allowed (or anyone for that matter) to express an opinion on them. if they are better than you (which they most surely are) then who are you to say they are good? what you are saying is that we are not allowed to give our opinion on them because they are better musicians. i disagree and said that experience of the music and understanding count for much more when giving an opinion.
what is so difficult to understand about what i said? other people understood it.
and you are right, opinions are a like posteriors. except some people end up talking out of them, case in point, you.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I never said that you're not allowed to give your opinion. Never. I gave mine about the men in question and on your opinions of them. Take a deep breath homey, it’s all good.
I said to Skip (not to you) that if someone thinks they are better than these two guys in the subject line, go ahead and prove it. That's it. Skip asked me how I know these two guys are better than the ones complaining about them. I said I didn’t. The onus is on anyone who thinks they are better to prove it.
...and apologies if you meant someone else when you mentioned someone being sycophantic when you were talking to me. Right. I have a bridge to nowhere in Alaska to sell you.
Also, I never would have come back in here if Skip and yourself didn’t make a big stink over me pointing out the obvious.
Finally, now you're saying I'm talking out of my ass.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
What the heck are you guys on about? Somehow this argument started and it seems for no reason - I dont remember anyone saying they were better than even Gavin or Carty. How did that all come about?
Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Its a hard one to call. Would it be possible for someone to explain to me how does one lose there music? Or maybe is it just a case that they didn't really have it in the first place and were just faking it for the people they considered friends and heroes letting on they respected there opinions and letting on they had the same taste in what "music" really is.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by skinnylillegs
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Is the toilet cistern broken or out of commission?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Red Robin
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Oh come on now.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by timmy!
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Ok.. you've made a fairly controversial statement there. qualify it. why are you saying that?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by galway-fiddle
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Troll or the one who takes the bait who is the more irritating?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Robert Jones
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
hahahaa! i know who posted this!!! haha!
anyway, back to the question. I love gavins playing from the old days, first album and the de danann stuff. but now its all a bit style and no substance. a bit messy sometimes, too many notes flying around. had it and lost it.
carty plays like brian rooney, but nowhere near as good. plays out of tune, though if people still play well this doesn't matter for me (too much, though they have to be pretty good!!). can certainly play fiddle, but it is on the shoulders of a borrowed style, ie: brian rooneys. in this case, thinking they are better than they are, but still good.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
This is absurd. John Carty is just Brian Rooney clone? Do you work for Fox News?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by timmy!
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Robert, im not "taking the bait." Taking the bait would have gone something like this (i assume): "oh for fark sake, another mindless thread from another mindless troll with a burnt ego just because he couldn't sit in on a session with frankie/john! how dare you say such a horrendus thing about two such respected conoisseurs of our fine music....... blah blah".
instead im sticking it to him/her!!! lets see if they reply
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by galway-fiddle
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I wonder why ignorant people tend to be so arrogant.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by slainte
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I have never seen a toilet fake a flush before. although i have seen a toilet in perfectly good working order but then all of a sudden fill up with poo!
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by skinnylillegs
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
So which one is the poo, skinny?
And what in your opinion, is music...."really"
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by banjoburger
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Dude, they both suck hard.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I didn't even read the thread yet, I just reacted at the title. That was sarcastic, by the way. If either of them are reading I would happily listen to either of you fellers play for hours and hours. True bowmen.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worse fiddler?
I am confused by the title. Worst implies a comarison of more than just 2 fiddlers. I assume you meant who is the worse fiddler ~ Mr. Gavin or Mr. Carty?
Is this the question,
"someone explain to me how does one lose there music?"
& this the implied answer;
"they didn't really have it in the first place"
If so is it safe to infer ~ neither one was very good (to begin with) & now each is getting worse. Thanks in advance skinnylillegs.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
WTF?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
We seem to be having a bit of a spate of "I haven't got a clue so I'll just attack someone well-known" threads.
Troll/wind-up or not, it's just a tad ... well, boring? Isn't it?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Well said benhall.1
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
benhall1 I believe there are very non - boring members posting as well. This thread allowed me to see what I might have missed recently I am now reading this thread.
Frankie- the future of irish music
Posted on September 30th 2008 by pamplemousse
ttp://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19250
skinnylillegs do you continue to listen to the 2 fiddlers?
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Ben Steen
Boring lnk
The link didn't work should be;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19250
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I have been listening to the "Tunes" CD with Sharon Shannon et. al. All the musicians are excellent ~ including fiddle.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Yawn. Why waste time on yet another junk thread when you could be changing the world for the better ?
http://tinyurl.com/52bx34
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Am I seeing a pattern emerging here? Moori makes a profile to post one thing slagging off musicians, and then skinny does the same thing. How awfully interesting skinny..really, really interesting. Lame.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by bb
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
... the moral of this story, dear people, is, never make a go of The Music and never become well known (famous) ... because when you do, you're open to all this kind of silly shoite that can go on on internet sites, unfortunately such as this one. We've probably all been guilty at some stage or other of voicing things on here that if we are honest we probably regret (too late) ... but I guess there are those who want to hit thesession with a bang with no intention of hanging around. Create a stink and run. It is, as Ben says, bluudy boring ... ho hum
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
bb if you are saying people are creating fake memberships doesn't that render their comments irrelevant? Or am I missing something?
skinnylillegs are you another member? If so why not pick one or the other?
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
lol. this is funny. i also know who made this thread... i think. but i do also think john is very like brian rooney!!!! thats all il say, ive been getin into too many arguments on this thing!! lol.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Skinnylillegs post
Funniest thing I have seen all day.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
No, I wasnt really saying that - more like this is a windup maybe in response to the other thread slagging BK.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by bb
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
A silly thread, of course, but it's obviously a wind up. I hope nobody takes it too seriously.
Actually, if we say one of them is worse this implies that the other is "better".
Conversely, if the question was "Who is the better or best fiddler"... If we named one, then this would imply that the other was worse.
So, basically the two questions are the same although it just seems more negative worded in this way.
However, like all of these debates including "best tunes", "worse tunes" etc, such questions are quite meaningless if not absurd.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by John J.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
The tone seems to be sinking around here! Shouldn't these kids be doing homework or something? What about on-line gaming? or try getting out in the fresh air? perhaps learning to play an instrument, or some tunes...
Ok Moori's thread actually had some musical relevance in so far as there is a common perception amongst musicians I play with that some people play 'too' fast and 'spoil' the music, not that I agree, but then I've been accused of the same in my younger days. But this one? Can anyone actually turn this into a musical discussion? about, say, Irish music? or would that be asking too much?
I can see that there could be a point regarding players imitating others slavishly and not putting their own mark on their music, clones.
How do we avoid this in our own playing? any specific things we do?
I like to learn from other instruments. I listen to a lot of concertina for example and try to incorporate some of that in my fiddling.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"Can anyone actually turn this into a musical discussion? about, say, Irish music?"
Ok, to offer another take on the topic, let me pose a more amicable version of the question: Who do you feel more dissapointed by in terms of direction of musical development/career, JC or FG?
The basis for the question is this: both were exceptional young musicians. Frankie's first album, early De Dannan, the flute album Up and Away - all great recordings. Now he seems to have moved towards cross-polinated styles of trazz and alike, arrival of the queen of sheeba etc. Even reaching new depths of poor taste with christams albums.
John is a different kettle of fish. He seems to have almost abandoned his origins as a banjo player, focusing in on the fiddle. Before you all jump in an say "well he did release a new banjo album" I know. I didn't think much of it, as a good percentage of the album was taken up with nonsense on the tenor guitar.
There is also a sense of over-exposure with the two of them. How many albums of them do we need? Carty records seem to come out bi-monthly at this stage, and one issue I'd have with this is the repoitoire doesn't seem to change. How many times has Carty released the Sligo Maid, or his "timeless" (direct quote from his website) composition Seanamac tube station? Most of the tunes on the album with Matt have been recorded by him before as well.
It also begs the question: are you only as good as your last gig? If that was applied to these two musicians, then I would say they weren't that good at all. However, if you take the body of their work, and bear in mind how the started off, you'd have to say they were great.
Gavin is a better fiddle player than Carty. Rooney's way better than both of them. Carty, IMHO, is the best banjo player I've heard. He may not be as 'important' as others, like McKenna or Flanagan, but his technique, swing and sense of variation are the best I've heard on a banjo. His fiddle playing does nothing for me, so this whole topic only makes me sad for the fact they were so good and so inspirational to begin with, but just aren't now.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
What's really funny is that both fellas can play rings around anyone who's actually bothered to post on here with their whiny nonsense, myself included. Whatever happened to that fine Celtic grasp on irony? Ah well...
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
swfl, how can you possibly comment on the standard of musicians posting here anonymously? When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME (but U especially).
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Once again, I sit here amazed that this many intelligent, literate, artistically appreciative people would respond to a posting such as the above.
How does it even bear acknowledgement?
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Piece
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"both fellas can play rings around anyone who's actually bothered to post on here "
I sure this is very true but there's no harm in people....even those who might be non muso lay people... making constructive criticism and comments re professional musicians who are out there in the public eye.
However, the way that the initial question is worded does not not really encourage or allow for this and probably wasn't the intention of the poster. Unfortunately.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by John J.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Personally I found much of de dannan generally not to my taste. Especially the Beatles covers. I like Frankie's traditional stuff but the rest? again not to my taste. But really, the man is a professional musician who has been playing an awful long time. He is quite entitled to 1] play what he chooses, 2] earn a living. Once again, if we don't like a thread, a session, or a musician's playing then we simply can vote with our feet.
I can't really fathom what purpose there is in criticism. What do we gain? Does any one think Frankie is going to read this? or care a hoot what we think? and why would he?
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion but I agree that much of the time there's nothing to be gained by "voicing it" and sometimes it's really more appropriate to "keep one's own counsel"
I don't suppose for one momemt that Frankie really worries too much about critics. At his stage of his career, why should he? In any case, he seems to be doing "Very well, thank you!"
In the earlier stages of an artist's career, journalistic and musical reviews may be more significant and I'm sure all musicans enjoy favourable reviews etc. However, most learn that "good or bad" criticism should always be taken with a "pinch of salt".
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by John J.
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Frankie has endured a lot of criticism throughout his career. As soon as he started breaking boundaries he got it in the neck. I imagine by this time its water off a ducks back.
If we can gain or aid others through the use of criticism as a tool then fair enough, if it is a means to an end. But an end in itself?
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Skip, if anyone wishes to prove they are a better fiddler than either of these gentlemen simply need post clips of themselves as evidence. We'll be happy to weigh it. The two gentlemen in question already have plenty of evidence available.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
no-one here is tryin to prove that they are better than any of these two gentlemen. if it was a case of not being able to pass judgement on them if we are not better than them on their respective instruments then that is absurd. people are still free to pass their own judgement on the two. if it was as you say swfl 'oh you are not as good as them so how can you say (in you're own opinion of course) that they are bad', then you could also put forward the argument that who are we to say that they are any good? whether people are good musicians themselves doesn't necessarily come into it, a good knowledge of music and experience does. you confusing a question focussing solely on these two musicians with people comparing themselves to them, which this isn't. of course people have certain opinions on musicians that others don't agree with, and thats normal of any walk of life, its better than being a sycophant. whats the point in that?
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
My god! An intelligent post on thesessiondotorg! Arrrrgh!!! My pacemaker!!! urghhh..................................................................
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Actually, seriously, fair play to you, fiddleruairi
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
nicely put fiddleruairi.
swfl, I find it a little strange you would make that comment anyway. Hyperthetically, say there was someone out there "better" than either of them, what on earth makes you think they would feel the need the need to "prove" themselves to anyone, let alone yourself and the collective body of posters on this site? And what makes you think you could "weigh" them? Delusions of grandeur perhaps......
I think you'd be better to look at this site for what it is - a bit of fun that is of little or no consquence to the music at all. None of the comments on this topic, or any other topic, should be, or will be, taken at all seriously by the related musicians. Nothing I say will affect FG or JC from doing what they do, and why should it?
I think any musician who is comparible to the aforementioned fiddlers would shiver at the thought of posting their music on here for the scrutiny of either anonymous antagonists (like myself) and rank amateurs (like yourself).
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I note that the original poster simply dropped an inflammatory bomb, and then stepped back to watch the feathers fly (save the one reference to toilets). And as usual the folks began clucking and pecking away.
Predictable.
Why can't anyone simply qualify their remarks, when it is an unprovable or an esthetic matter, with "In my humbe opinion,"? At least they will not sound like they are judging better or worse about a matter of taste or a point of view.
Of course, that is what started this whole thing, one poster of unknown backgropund and musicological experience - I looked at their empty bio - waving a red flag at the bull (for what ever jollies he/she presumably gets from saying offensive things and thrilling to others being upset by it. Else why would they do it?)
Just my humble opinion. Rant over.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by Piece
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"little or no consquence to the music at all". This is it really.
There was a question posted a while ago along the lines of "How important is thesession.org to the music?"
I replied something along the lines of: I truly hope that it is of no significance whatsoever. I got a row for that, but I stand by it
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Significance to the PURSUIT of the music for for musicians, perhaps. It depends on one's definition of significance or impact is, I suppose.
I know that I have learned a few things worth learning here, and it is a good source for searching out names and recordings of tunes. I even found a session near me.
All valid, but I believe I may see your point as well, and would agree.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by Piece
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
If only that were true. Many people come here, directed to the session from many places. The fact is that they go away with impressions from this site in their heads. Its OK for folk living within the tradition to scorn the effect sites have, but the printed word is very powerful. Try Mien Kampf, , Mao's little red book. Words on paper.. but with a huge effect on the world.
People can go away from here with ideas that can help them or hinder them, which is which? To deny the effect of our words is to deny reality.
Not only our words but our attitudes effect everyone that encounters them. The butterfly spreads its wings.
Internet sites like this can have powerful repercussions in the real world, businesses made or ruined. peoples musical efforts badly stunted by poor advice , and all the rest.
I certainly don't think FG , for example, is going to be harmed by words here, but others may well be.
We are all responsible for our action and our words, and the consequences of our words. Do not be fooled otherwise. Mao's little red book, Hitler's Mien Kampf were just words. Do you think Mao was not responsible for the 'cultural revolution'?
I'm the first to accept that my examples are extreme, but they make a point.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Ioannas,
Just to add a counter balance to your argument, I can't really see the lines of comparison you are making with your examples. For instance Mao's little book. Most of the quotations in it are actually fairly unclear. In fact, prior to 1978 many Chinese actually avoided police touble by giving an ambiguous quote to justify their actions. The WORDS in the book weren't the significant aspect of 'oppression', it was the fact that all Chienese citizens were forced to own, read, and by the latter part of Mao's life, carry on their person a copy of the book. No no-one is suggesting that all traditional musicians read everything in the session.org and take it as gospel. Far from it. People read what they want, take from it how they want, and form their own opinions in their own way.
As for the comparison to Hitler's Mien Kampf, I would only comment by directing you to Goodwin's law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Goodwin's law kills a great deal of discussions like this. And so it bloody should
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Having an opinion on someone's music is fair enough, express it here if you must. However, as someone has said earlier, at least do the decent thing and qualify your statement; then we can all discuss and decide whether your opinion is worth sh*t or otherwise.
No-one need prove themselves, as far as I can see; you don't have to be a great player to pass judgement on someone else. However it helps if you know what you're talking about so that when someone asks "why don't you like such-and-such's playing?" you can give them a sensible answer. It's not really enough to say "because they've copied so-and-so's style"; that's pure laziness and sounds like a regurgitation of someone else's throwaway remark. What is it you think they've copied? Does it sound better or worse? Are they rote-copying tunes or just the odd roll here and there?
Naming and shaming on a website is a bit sad, if you ask me. I have these kinds of discussions with my mates all the time in the pub and, in my opinion, that's where they're best kept.
Don't forget, this stuff could be here long after you and I are gone; choose your words carefully.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"Don't forget, this stuff could be here long after you and I are gone; choose your words carefully"
Conán McDonnell smells like Baby Diapers!
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Have you been talking to my girlfriend??
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I am a fiddler and I'm worse than both John Carty and Frankie Gavin - so much worse, that I render the question of which of them is the worse enitrely insignificant. In fact, I'm one of the worse fiddlers I've ever met. I'm not being particularly hard on myself - I took it up 4 years ago, aged 30, and don't work very hard at it, so it's not surprising that I'm not that good. However, I enjoy it, and I play it in public seldom enough that it doesn't upset anyone - at least, not enough to elicit any audible protest.
So, what does it matter?
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Skip
There was no comparison with mien kampf, or maos little red book. I was just pointing out the power of the printed word.
One point being we are responsible for the effects of our words, whether written down, or spoken.They are actions and they have effects.
>>People read what they want, take from it how they want, and form their own opinions in their own way>>
To some extent, depending on the mental health of the reader. But you are assuming that everyone who reads these words is in a position to judge. You might be joking, someone might take you seriously. That's a communication breakdown. As the author it is our obligation to be as clear as we can, using the limited tools type etc. we have.
You might think its all a bit of fun, after all, who takes the session seriously? The fact is that some people do.
Just recently a young man was on a high building. some people yelled 'jump' they were joking, I hope, he jumped. He's dead.
Ok , its not life and death on the session.... but its a warning to us all... be careful what you say., Our words DO have effects.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
"I'm one of the worse fiddlers I've ever met."
I meant 'worst', of course.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Hilarious!
Yes, you get on here and cry and whine about famous musicians. I say they're probably better than all you whiners, then I simply state a logical and rational position.
If you think they stink, great! You have an opinion! With that, you also get egg roll and fried rice!
You're better than they are? OK! Let's see!
Logic. Reason. Two things which have no place on an internet forum, obviously.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
judging form your last commetn swfl, you're right. no logic, no reason. obviously you don't READ other comments. you pick out a few words and make one up in your head. read my last one, cause i feel i'd just be repeating myself.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I presume you mean Godwin's Law?
Reminds me of a lesser known law, which truly worked a few years ago. Picture it as being around 1990, in the UK. The law stated that, if you got 5 males between the ages of 28 and 35 in a pub talking together, it would be 12 minutes or less before at least one started reciting a Monty Python sketch.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
There are heaps of really amazing musicians who have accounts here - but theyve been scared away by all the nonesense and lack of knowledge on the board.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by bb
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
What a stupid question, the are both brilliant fiddlers. Well - I liked mr. Gavin better, in the 'old' days, when he played a bit slower, but still a great fiddler. Mr. Carthy is a great fiddler too - clone or not - aren't we all more or less clones of someone??? I think it is a question of 'taste' who you like. By the way I'm a banjoplayer........
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by ceili
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Wow - the mission to find the edge of a flat Earth carries on, even now!
In fairnesss, some good points made (IMHO) although the reference to Godwin's law left me puzzled. I believe I see the meaning of the Law, but fail to see its relevancy here, as far as contributiing anything to the discussion.
Still batting the ball of opinion back and forth, some made the now-traditional point about folk who post without reading others postings carefully first, the scatalogical references came out rather late this time (good on you, lads!), Maybe it is time to agree to disagree? For God's sakes, a banjoplayer even got into the conversation!! Bejeezus!!
I now leave you to take on a task far more relevant to my pursuit of ITM, and of more consequence to the musical world at large.
I am going to get a warm-up for my coffee.
Carry on, folks, and good day to you all.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by Piece
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
Sorry ruari, which part of your post are you referring to, when you called me a sycophant or the other rambling incoherent part where you made no sense?
If you say they both stink, great! Woo pee dee doo. Opinions are like posteriors, everybody's got one.
You're better than them? OK, anyone who hasn’t played with you doesn't believe you.
Is that terribly difficult to understand?
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
haha! sorry there swfl, but i actually dont need to waste my time arguing with you because you just proved how immature and pathetic you are.
i am actually frightened at how badly you interpreted my post! first of all i did not call you a sycophant. i said that if people dont like these two gentlemen, than thats fine. then i said that in every walk of life there are people who wont have the same opinions. that is better than being sycophantic. just in case you are wondering that is a statement, not a comment directed at you.
also, did i say that i was better than them??? hmmm let me think...no i dont recall that one. in fact, i dont recall anyone saying that they are better. i know im not better than either of them but that doesnt mean i'm not allowed (or anyone for that matter) to express an opinion on them. if they are better than you (which they most surely are) then who are you to say they are good? what you are saying is that we are not allowed to give our opinion on them because they are better musicians. i disagree and said that experience of the music and understanding count for much more when giving an opinion.
what is so difficult to understand about what i said? other people understood it.
and you are right, opinions are a like posteriors. except some people end up talking out of them, case in point, you.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
I never said that you're not allowed to give your opinion. Never. I gave mine about the men in question and on your opinions of them. Take a deep breath homey, it’s all good.
I said to Skip (not to you) that if someone thinks they are better than these two guys in the subject line, go ahead and prove it. That's it. Skip asked me how I know these two guys are better than the ones complaining about them. I said I didn’t. The onus is on anyone who thinks they are better to prove it.
...and apologies if you meant someone else when you mentioned someone being sycophantic when you were talking to me. Right. I have a bridge to nowhere in Alaska to sell you.
Also, I never would have come back in here if Skip and yourself didn’t make a big stink over me pointing out the obvious.
Finally, now you're saying I'm talking out of my ass.
Lovely. Charming. Have a pleasant day.
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
What the heck are you guys on about? Somehow this argument started and it seems for no reason - I dont remember anyone saying they were better than even Gavin or Carty. How did that all come about?
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by bb
Re: Frankie Gavin or John Carty who is the worst fiddler?
he he, swfl talks out of his ass. he he
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by skip canlon