So, my challenge at the moment is to help a bassoonist (classical, naturally) to learn to play Anglo concertina.
She's doing really well, but I'm struggling with one thing: triplet runs up, like, say (3Bcd g in, for instance, the Bird in the Bush. She has a - natural, I suppose - tendency to play them very evenly, as you would in classical music. The way I'm explaining it is by saying that they're more or less like two semiquavers and a quaver, rather than a proper triplet. But it's not quite that, is it?
Anybody got any suggestions as to what I *should* be saying to explain this?
Continuo - yeah, you're right. But I think there's still a need to be able to *describe* what's different about it. Which is where I'm struggling.
Nice to see you again the other night, Trevor. Baroque, eh? I hadn't thought of that. I found myself thinking "Are you *sure*?" I'm still pondering ...
Perhaps a little more specific help is to be found in "A Performer's Guide to Music of the Baroque Period" (ISBN 1 86096 1924), a series of monographs in one volume edited by Anthony Burton, published by The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. It comes with a CD of examples.
Chapter 2 by Peter Holman discusses notation and interpretation in detail, from which it is clear that notation is/was almost always only a rough approximation to the reality of playing (this doesn't apply so much to vocal music because altering the rhythms can obscure the words or throw stresses onto the wrong words). For instance, a triplet, in a 6/8 jig for example, would be written as "abc" but would much more likely be played as something like "a>bc" - but even that is only an approximation. A mathematically accurate transcription by computer software of a triplet as played would surely be hideously complicated and virtually unreadable.
Chapter 4 by Andrew Manze on string instruments is absorbing reading for anyone interested in baroque playing, and perhaps in the influence of the baroque on instrumental folk music of today.
Use the rhythm of language, 3 syllable words or a couple of words ~ those equivalent to N/N/N ~
elephant
alphabet
cinnamon
butterscotch
tarragon
apple sauce
apple pie
eat your soup
Daft, yes, I know, but I've used it successfully in teaching and instilling and understanding, intellectually and physically, or rhythms for music and dance, and sometimes some quite complex rhythms and time signatures, in the micro and macro sense of a melody, twiddle, figure or step.
'Phrase' applies in a similar context to both music and language, so why not use one to aid the understanding of the t'other?
Some of these comments are very useful, especially, "tell her to go and listen", but your first advice - telling her two semi's and the third note held longer is presicely correct. The Worst of all is hearing a triplet Duh - Duh -Duh. instead of DuhDuhDuuhhhhh.
"Peppermint" ~ we just did a canal walk and couldn't help ourselves. I won't add everything we came up with.
One rhythmic word pair used for teaching a rant is "potato chip"...
Having worked with those with a learning disability, including working with myself, I realize the value of different approaches. Not everyone learns the same way and the more options used the more likely it is to click in place and stay...
Vocalizations, or lilting, mouth music, has been a prized means for passing on tunes and technique for yonks ~ learning to sing the melody and or turn / triplet...
Another means is to take the rhythm to the physical level, such as tapping a table, using L for left and R for right and conventions of ABC notation ~
LL R2 | LL R2 | LL R2 | ~ as an example... And there's dance steps, the basic unskipped reel step being ~
I like it... What kind of potatoes? I used to collect dung from a zoo for composting and digging in ~ and Elephant dung was highly prized by gardeners... Fortunately I had connections...
For those of you who might not yet appreciate such potions, take a bottle along with you camping or on a hike, bad weather or not, and treat yourself to it when you make the top, or rest beside a rivulet or after you've set up camp and have a nice little fire going for the kettle ~ or just at home near the fire, add it to hot chocolate... Ahhhhh!!!
Hey Messrs. ben and c, I wonder how the physics differ between the two? I'm sure her learning curve, no matter how good of a musician she is, will be proportional to how different the instruments are. Triplets are tricky no matter what you're playing and they all have their own thing that's specific to the instrument.
So ben, is she cute? Worth the effort with the bassoon thing? Am I ruining it right now? Is she reading this? Forget I said anything.
D'y'know, it always amazes me when watching American TV programmes when someone refers to a man as 'cute'. I think I'd just die if someone said that about me. Not that it's likely, of course ...
Help/ideas required ...
Help/ideas required ...
So, my challenge at the moment is to help a bassoonist (classical, naturally) to learn to play Anglo concertina.
She's doing really well, but I'm struggling with one thing: triplet runs up, like, say (3Bcd g in, for instance, the Bird in the Bush. She has a - natural, I suppose - tendency to play them very evenly, as you would in classical music. The way I'm explaining it is by saying that they're more or less like two semiquavers and a quaver, rather than a proper triplet. But it's not quite that, is it?
Anybody got any suggestions as to what I *should* be saying to explain this?
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Help/ideas required ...
You should say: 'Go and listen to lots of recordings with triplets in them'.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by continuo
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Or listen to baroque music played by an ensemble who know what they're doing.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Continuo - yeah, you're right. But I think there's still a need to be able to *describe* what's different about it. Which is where I'm struggling.
Nice to see you again the other night, Trevor. Baroque, eh? I hadn't thought of that. I found myself thinking "Are you *sure*?" I'm still pondering ...
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Perhaps a little more specific help is to be found in "A Performer's Guide to Music of the Baroque Period" (ISBN 1 86096 1924), a series of monographs in one volume edited by Anthony Burton, published by The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. It comes with a CD of examples.
Chapter 2 by Peter Holman discusses notation and interpretation in detail, from which it is clear that notation is/was almost always only a rough approximation to the reality of playing (this doesn't apply so much to vocal music because altering the rhythms can obscure the words or throw stresses onto the wrong words). For instance, a triplet, in a 6/8 jig for example, would be written as "abc" but would much more likely be played as something like "a>bc" - but even that is only an approximation. A mathematically accurate transcription by computer software of a triplet as played would surely be hideously complicated and virtually unreadable.
Chapter 4 by Andrew Manze on string instruments is absorbing reading for anyone interested in baroque playing, and perhaps in the influence of the baroque on instrumental folk music of today.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Use the rhythm of language, 3 syllable words or a couple of words ~ those equivalent to N/N/N ~
elephant
alphabet
cinnamon
butterscotch
tarragon
apple sauce
apple pie
eat your soup
Daft, yes, I know, but I've used it successfully in teaching and instilling and understanding, intellectually and physically, or rhythms for music and dance, and sometimes some quite complex rhythms and time signatures, in the micro and macro sense of a melody, twiddle, figure or step.
'Phrase' applies in a similar context to both music and language, so why not use one to aid the understanding of the t'other?
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
'and' = 'an undesterstanding' / 'or' = 'of rhythms'. It must be I'm tired. My symptoms of dyslexia rise in such instances...
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
'undesterstanding' = 'understanding' ~ see, I warned you...
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Some of these comments are very useful, especially, "tell her to go and listen", but your first advice - telling her two semi's and the third note held longer is presicely correct. The Worst of all is hearing a triplet Duh - Duh -Duh. instead of DuhDuhDuuhhhhh.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by The Grand Spy
Re: Help/ideas required ...
"Peppermint" ~ we just did a canal walk and couldn't help ourselves. I won't add everything we came up with.
One rhythmic word pair used for teaching a rant is "potato chip"...
Having worked with those with a learning disability, including working with myself, I realize the value of different approaches. Not everyone learns the same way and the more options used the more likely it is to click in place and stay...
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
"understand"!
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Vocalizations, or lilting, mouth music, has been a prized means for passing on tunes and technique for yonks ~ learning to sing the melody and or turn / triplet...
Another means is to take the rhythm to the physical level, such as tapping a table, using L for left and R for right and conventions of ABC notation ~
LL R2 | LL R2 | LL R2 | ~ as an example... And there's dance steps, the basic unskipped reel step being ~
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
|: L2 R2 L4 | R2 L2 R4 :|
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Thanks, ceol, the words are a good idea. Out of the ones you've come up with, we've just adopted one, with a slight addition:
Elephant dung
That phrase incorporates the 'target' note as well as the triplet itself.
It came to us while we were digging potatoes ...
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Help/ideas required ...
I like it... What kind of potatoes? I used to collect dung from a zoo for composting and digging in ~ and Elephant dung was highly prized by gardeners... Fortunately I had connections...
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Help/ideas required ...
It's a bassonist and I've only had one before drop into our realm, and thinking back on her, maybe this would work better ~
"peppermint schnapps"
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Help/ideas required ...
For those of you who might not yet appreciate such potions, take a bottle along with you camping or on a hike, bad weather or not, and treat yourself to it when you make the top, or rest beside a rivulet or after you've set up camp and have a nice little fire going for the kettle ~ or just at home near the fire, add it to hot chocolate... Ahhhhh!!!
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Hey Messrs. ben and c, I wonder how the physics differ between the two? I'm sure her learning curve, no matter how good of a musician she is, will be proportional to how different the instruments are. Triplets are tricky no matter what you're playing and they all have their own thing that's specific to the instrument.
So ben, is she cute? Worth the effort with the bassoon thing? Am I ruining it right now? Is she reading this? Forget I said anything.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Help/ideas required ...
"Cute"???!!?!!! Not sure *that's* the word ... probably a cultural thing - makes her sound like a toy ... she *is* reading this, btw ...
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Help/ideas required ...
HA! Yes, cultural thing, most definitely! Try lovely? Bonnie?
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Lovely 'll do.
D'y'know, it always amazes me when watching American TV programmes when someone refers to a man as 'cute'. I think I'd just die if someone said that about me. Not that it's likely, of course ...
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Heh, heh. Ben, just as well you weren't listening when your back was turned at the Try Again the other night
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Help/ideas required ...
Oh, that's so SWEET of you, Trevor!
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by ethical blend