Here's a question that has been intriguing me lately (and apologies if it has been discussed before).
Why do most all instrumental tunes---reels, jigs, hornpipes in particular, but also breakdowns and fiddle tunes in bluegrass, etc, so commonly have two (or more) parts? Undoubtedly this has historical origins that go back a ways, but I am curious what it is about the basic need/desure for musical expression that makes us feel like an A part is not enough, there needs to be a B part as well, or it just isn't right!
Here is a guess. This is dance music. Often played for sets, squares or contra formations. The tune is played completely for one iteration of the dance; then you dance with the next couple in the set, or line, or square. A typical dance structure is AABB' or AABA and figures in the dance start and end on the boundries of the phrases. The change between part one and part two is like a sign post that helps the dancers know where in the dance they are. Even if you have never heard the tune, you can deduce the "map" by structure alone; it lets you get back on track after a "diversion".
I would also guess that there are other good reasons as well.
I don;t agree, Greg. I also like tunes where the A and B parts are very similar. Like, for instance, Vincent Broderick's The Coachman's Whip - rolls along beautifully.
An awful lot of vocal music has two or more parts as well. There are plenty of ballad type songs that just have the one part, but a lot of songs, whether trad, pop or otherwise, will have either a chorus or a 'middle 8'. The ones with just one part (in terms of the notes) are often longer, more complex melodies and frequently also make up for the lack of a second part by having a really strong story line.
And there are many who think that two is not enough! Have a listen to the Wandering Minstrel or Humours of Ennistymon (three parts) or even the Lark in the Morning and Gold Ring (four parts). As they say "variety is the spice of life"!
They still end up being, mostly, divisible by 2... It is deep set in our nature, even with mixed meters, combining 2s & 3s... '2' is ever pervasive. Now if we'd been born with 5 fingers and 5 toes at the end of our appendages ~ damn! I've just counted them ~ a total of 10 fingers and 10 toes!!! What possiblities will that lead to?
Ceolachan is on to something here and it's probably the dances that influence the tune structures. How many times have we played for the second figure of a Caledonian set only to find the dancers finishing in the middle of a reel - how inconsiderate of them! Then we decided to play the three part Christmas Eve and "Eureka" we all finished together. The fifth figure of the same set caused similar problems but last night we played the Kilfenora Reel set (Connemara Stockings, etc) with each reel played 3 times through and once again musicians and dancers finished together. I think I'm going to take a calculator along the next time we play for set dancers.
Gregtpt: "it's the contrast between the A and B parts that really makes the tune."
BenH: "I don;t agree, Greg. I also like tunes where the A and B parts are very similar. Like, for instance, Vincent Broderick's The Coachman's Whip - rolls along beautifully."
Ben - Perhaps we should read 'contrast' as 'change' or 'difference' or 'shift'. It's the change, whether subtle (e.g. The Coachman's Whip) or out-and-out bipolar (e.g. The Return to Milltown http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3205 , version with Fnats in A-part, in comments) , that makes the tune.
I love those rambling 4-part bagpipe jigs, where each part differs from the last by only 2 or 3 notes.
Yep. I'd go with that, granama. It's like I like to link tunes that are ever so similar ... Frieze Breeches plus I Buried My Wife ... which some would say is the same tune ...
One of the box players at our local session once commented that the "B" parts of tunes were usually more difficult and more complex as if the person who originally wrote the tune was trying to challenge anyone who was foolish enough to try to play the tune.
The tunes in the set are Connemara Stockings, Jim McCormicks and Clougher Reels. They're all here (although the names may be different) in the tunes database as follows:-
This reel set is probably the most popular in Clare and was used by the Old Kilfenora Céilí Band of the fifties as well as today's Kilfenora. As I said already, the set is made for the fifth figure of the Caledonian set.
It's a very interesting question especially if posed in a wider musical context. Contrast in music is pretty universal, not in every single piece that ever existed of course. As has been said, the verse-chorus form in song is very old. Composers in classical music (broad sense) developed polyphony to add colour and contrast. Later, fugue and sonata form, the former with several contrasting voices, and the latter with contrasting subjects within a structure allowing for even more exploration of themes, were developed, and composers down the ages have in addition employed theme-and-variations. At its most basic level, I suppose contrast is needed to keep the listener engaged. In song, the chorus allows people to join in even if they don't know the song. Contrast used skilfully manages to link the contrasting parts in a way that most listeners can relate to - they don't lose the sense of structure in the piece even if they're not familiar with it. Just think of a two-part tune such as Harvest Home which has contrasting A and B parts but which contains similar musical devices in each part to create the link in the listener's mind without forcing too much mental processing (as well has having the A and B parts ending the same way, as with a lot of "our" tunes). We also use contrast by constructing sets of tunes, which not only have thematic contrast but which also employ contrasting tonal centres. We often discuss what makes a "good set." It has a lot to do with providing the right sort of contrast, and we are unconsciously delving into the deepest realms of what makes music great by anguishing over what goes best with what. There is unity within contrast, or vice versa, in a well-constructed piece of music, or even a well-thought-out set. Amateurish compositions (by accident), or even damn masterpieces in the hands of the Beethovens of this world (on purpose), can take contrast to extremes, to the point of dissociation. This can give a very jarring and unsettling result (just think of putting the A part of one reel with the B part of another reel with a completely different "feel," for example) which adds up to a rotten tune in the wrong compositional hands. Beethoven and some of the later Romantic composers used dissociation to good effect when unsettling the listener was the intention. But we harmonious types hereabouts want our musical contrasts to be somewhat reined in so that even those listeners or dancers who don't know the tunes can latch on to the structures we're chucking at them so that they'll stay happy and secure.
Imagine my surprise when I read this thread, and discovered that the structure of dance tunes was influenced by (wait for it) (here it comes) the structure of dances! OMG! What a revelation! I never would have guessed.
I like to play some ballad melodies as airs, but even taken away from a dance structured, one part tunes don't work well for a single voice. I use pieces with two or more parts this way. Even variation on a theme works better when it's set in contrast to anothe theme. Play "A". Play "B" . Play "A" only diferently. The "B", perhaps almost iddentically. Compare and contrast.
That isn't quite what's meant by "variations on a theme by..." in classical. A theme (usually simple but with lots of potential in the composer's mind) may be added to, embellished, ornamented, inverted, stripped to the bone with different parts emphasised (just the bass line for example, as at the start of the variations of the finale of the Eroica symphony or the very start of Rachmaninov's Paganini rhapsody), turned into a fugue or whatever. The theme itself, though usually simple, may have A and B parts, as with Diabelli's little "cobbler's patch" waltz that Beethoven so memorably turned into a wonderful set of variations. Some variations are very close to the theme whilst others are so distant that it takes a lot of careful listening or mental processing to see the link, but it's there. A uniting feature of even diverse sets of variations is the tonal centre, which is usually very persistent.
Steve Shaw - That was brilliant! Well said and thank you.
Bannerman - When you say Kilfenora set are you talking about the Kilfenora Plain set dance or a paticular set of tunes, OR are you talking about a paticular set of tunes that go with the Kilfenora Plain set dance?
The Kilfenora Ceili Band that just played at Milwaukee Irish Fest said that they played a paticular tune (I don't remember which one) traditionaly for the last figure of the Kilfenora Plain set. (I do remember him saying that it was a polka instead of the usually listed quadrille. ) Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a paticular set of tunes that is traditionaly played with the Kilfenora Plain set in the rest of the figures.
Tadhg, this thing about sets is always confusing in that there are dances known as sets and also sets of tunes put together by musicians which sometimes can be played for these dances. I'm not aware of a dance called the "Kilfenora Set" but there is a dance the "Clare Set" also known as "Caledonian" and also another called "the Plain Set". All these sets have a number of parts called figures that you can play different tunes for (so long as they're the right type - some need reels, others jigs, etc). Depending on the length of each figure, single or double tunes may fit best - someone like ceolachan would be an authority on this as he'd probably know the exact length of these figures. It just so happens that the tunes set known as the Kilfenora with each tune played three times fits exactly when played for the 5th figure of the Caledonian. As for the confusion on polkas, this may be explained by the Kilrush polkas, often played by the Kilfenora Céili Band, are in fact reels!
Just to try and give further clarification on the matter of “Kilfenora Sets” the tunes shown as Kilrush Polkas on the Kilfenora Céilí Band’s “Live in Lisdoonvarna” recording (http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/453) are listed as the the following reels here on the Yellow Board:-
Most people in Clare though would still call them the Kilrush Polkas.
As if there hasn’t been enough confusion on this topic already, there is also another category of Set Dances for step dancers such as St. Patrick’s Day, Job of Journeywork, Garden of the Daisies, The Blackbird, etc which can only be danced to those particular tunes.
I find it hard to think of the second tune as a reel. I learned it from Tommie Keane around 1982 and like him have always considered it and played it as a hornpipe.
A lot of confusion can arise from the fact that the old Plain set as it was danced around Kilrush and westward to Carrigaholt to polkas. It's only the modern versions that have standardised some figures to reels. I recently heard Mick Tubridy discussing and lamenting this development.
Quite likely the same happened around Kilfenora, some places in North Clare certainly used to have figures of the set danced to polkas rather than the reels of the modern versions.
Tunes with two parts
Tunes with two parts
Here's a question that has been intriguing me lately (and apologies if it has been discussed before).
Why do most all instrumental tunes---reels, jigs, hornpipes in particular, but also breakdowns and fiddle tunes in bluegrass, etc, so commonly have two (or more) parts? Undoubtedly this has historical origins that go back a ways, but I am curious what it is about the basic need/desure for musical expression that makes us feel like an A part is not enough, there needs to be a B part as well, or it just isn't right!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Tunes with two parts
Try playing just the A part or B part of a tune eight or twelve times in a row and you'll see why.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Tunes with two parts
it's the contrast between the A and B parts that really makes the tune.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tunes with two parts
Here is a guess. This is dance music. Often played for sets, squares or contra formations. The tune is played completely for one iteration of the dance; then you dance with the next couple in the set, or line, or square. A typical dance structure is AABB' or AABA and figures in the dance start and end on the boundries of the phrases. The change between part one and part two is like a sign post that helps the dancers know where in the dance they are. Even if you have never heard the tune, you can deduce the "map" by structure alone; it lets you get back on track after a "diversion".
I would also guess that there are other good reasons as well.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by toumi
Re: Tunes with two parts
Verse, chorus - once that was discovered then why keep playing verse, verse, verse. Dynamics would be the obvious answer.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by bogman
Re: Tunes with two parts
I don;t agree, Greg. I also like tunes where the A and B parts are very similar. Like, for instance, Vincent Broderick's The Coachman's Whip - rolls along beautifully.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Tunes with two parts
An awful lot of vocal music has two or more parts as well. There are plenty of ballad type songs that just have the one part, but a lot of songs, whether trad, pop or otherwise, will have either a chorus or a 'middle 8'. The ones with just one part (in terms of the notes) are often longer, more complex melodies and frequently also make up for the lack of a second part by having a really strong story line.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Tunes with two parts
DANCE!!! ~
~ & the fact we're made up of twos ourselves ~ two of those and two of these and being bipedal, even if we do start out on all fours...
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tunes with two parts
And there are many who think that two is not enough! Have a listen to the Wandering Minstrel or Humours of Ennistymon (three parts) or even the Lark in the Morning and Gold Ring (four parts). As they say "variety is the spice of life"!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes with two parts
2 x 2 = 4
LRL & RLR = 3 + 3
They still end up being, mostly, divisible by 2... It is deep set in our nature, even with mixed meters, combining 2s & 3s... '2' is ever pervasive. Now if we'd been born with 5 fingers and 5 toes at the end of our appendages ~ damn! I've just counted them ~ a total of 10 fingers and 10 toes!!! What possiblities will that lead to?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ceolachan
Structures ~ phrases/phrasing ~ 2 / 4 / 8 / 16 / 32 (24 / 48 / etc...)
John Cage, why couldn't you have been an Irish piper?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ceolachan
A full octave ~ 8
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Tunes with two parts
Ceolachan is on to something here and it's probably the dances that influence the tune structures. How many times have we played for the second figure of a Caledonian set only to find the dancers finishing in the middle of a reel - how inconsiderate of them! Then we decided to play the three part Christmas Eve and "Eureka" we all finished together. The fifth figure of the same set caused similar problems but last night we played the Kilfenora Reel set (Connemara Stockings, etc) with each reel played 3 times through and once again musicians and dancers finished together. I think I'm going to take a calculator along the next time we play for set dancers.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes with two parts
Gregtpt: "it's the contrast between the A and B parts that really makes the tune."
BenH: "I don;t agree, Greg. I also like tunes where the A and B parts are very similar. Like, for instance, Vincent Broderick's The Coachman's Whip - rolls along beautifully."
Ben - Perhaps we should read 'contrast' as 'change' or 'difference' or 'shift'. It's the change, whether subtle (e.g. The Coachman's Whip) or out-and-out bipolar (e.g. The Return to Milltown http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3205 , version with Fnats in A-part, in comments) , that makes the tune.
I love those rambling 4-part bagpipe jigs, where each part differs from the last by only 2 or 3 notes.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tunes with two parts
Yep. I'd go with that, granama. It's like I like to link tunes that are ever so similar ... Frieze Breeches plus I Buried My Wife ... which some would say is the same tune ...
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Tunes with two parts
the AB song form is old. Very old.
I think you could make a case for it going back as far as the old "call and response" form in early human cultures.
but it was around in the dark ages, long before we started writing things down.
even some of the birds use it, if you listen close
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Tunes with two parts
One of the box players at our local session once commented that the "B" parts of tunes were usually more difficult and more complex as if the person who originally wrote the tune was trying to challenge anyone who was foolish enough to try to play the tune.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Tunes with two parts
I can think of alot of jazz tunes where the bridge (the B section) is way harder than the rest of the tune.
makes me wonder if there isn't something to that in a more general sense, fauxcelt
I wonder what we would find if we looked at the counterthemes of classical sonatas?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Tunes with two parts
> last night we played the Kilfenora Reel set (Connemara Stockings, etc)
Bannerman,
could you tell me which tunes are in this set, please.
(Apologies for the hijack.)
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by DaveL35
Re: Tunes with two parts
The tunes in the set are Connemara Stockings, Jim McCormicks and Clougher Reels. They're all here (although the names may be different) in the tunes database as follows:-
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/614
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2269
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2350
This reel set is probably the most popular in Clare and was used by the Old Kilfenora Céilí Band of the fifties as well as today's Kilfenora. As I said already, the set is made for the fifth figure of the Caledonian set.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes with two parts
It's a very interesting question especially if posed in a wider musical context. Contrast in music is pretty universal, not in every single piece that ever existed of course. As has been said, the verse-chorus form in song is very old. Composers in classical music (broad sense) developed polyphony to add colour and contrast. Later, fugue and sonata form, the former with several contrasting voices, and the latter with contrasting subjects within a structure allowing for even more exploration of themes, were developed, and composers down the ages have in addition employed theme-and-variations. At its most basic level, I suppose contrast is needed to keep the listener engaged. In song, the chorus allows people to join in even if they don't know the song. Contrast used skilfully manages to link the contrasting parts in a way that most listeners can relate to - they don't lose the sense of structure in the piece even if they're not familiar with it. Just think of a two-part tune such as Harvest Home which has contrasting A and B parts but which contains similar musical devices in each part to create the link in the listener's mind without forcing too much mental processing (as well has having the A and B parts ending the same way, as with a lot of "our" tunes). We also use contrast by constructing sets of tunes, which not only have thematic contrast but which also employ contrasting tonal centres. We often discuss what makes a "good set." It has a lot to do with providing the right sort of contrast, and we are unconsciously delving into the deepest realms of what makes music great by anguishing over what goes best with what. There is unity within contrast, or vice versa, in a well-constructed piece of music, or even a well-thought-out set. Amateurish compositions (by accident), or even damn masterpieces in the hands of the Beethovens of this world (on purpose), can take contrast to extremes, to the point of dissociation. This can give a very jarring and unsettling result (just think of putting the A part of one reel with the B part of another reel with a completely different "feel," for example) which adds up to a rotten tune in the wrong compositional hands. Beethoven and some of the later Romantic composers used dissociation to good effect when unsettling the listener was the intention. But we harmonious types hereabouts want our musical contrasts to be somewhat reined in so that even those listeners or dancers who don't know the tunes can latch on to the structures we're chucking at them so that they'll stay happy and secure.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tunes with two parts
Imagine my surprise when I read this thread, and discovered that the structure of dance tunes was influenced by (wait for it) (here it comes) the structure of dances! OMG! What a revelation! I never would have guessed.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Tunes with two parts
I like to play some ballad melodies as airs, but even taken away from a dance structured, one part tunes don't work well for a single voice. I use pieces with two or more parts this way. Even variation on a theme works better when it's set in contrast to anothe theme. Play "A". Play "B" . Play "A" only diferently. The "B", perhaps almost iddentically. Compare and contrast.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Kell O\'Graham
Re: Tunes with two parts
That isn't quite what's meant by "variations on a theme by..." in classical. A theme (usually simple but with lots of potential in the composer's mind) may be added to, embellished, ornamented, inverted, stripped to the bone with different parts emphasised (just the bass line for example, as at the start of the variations of the finale of the Eroica symphony or the very start of Rachmaninov's Paganini rhapsody), turned into a fugue or whatever. The theme itself, though usually simple, may have A and B parts, as with Diabelli's little "cobbler's patch" waltz that Beethoven so memorably turned into a wonderful set of variations. Some variations are very close to the theme whilst others are so distant that it takes a lot of careful listening or mental processing to see the link, but it's there. A uniting feature of even diverse sets of variations is the tonal centre, which is usually very persistent.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tunes with two parts
Bannerman, Thanks a million for your help with those tunes.
OK, carry on, folks...
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by DaveL35
Re: Tunes with two parts
Steve Shaw - That was brilliant! Well said and thank you.
Bannerman - When you say Kilfenora set are you talking about the Kilfenora Plain set dance or a paticular set of tunes, OR are you talking about a paticular set of tunes that go with the Kilfenora Plain set dance?
The Kilfenora Ceili Band that just played at Milwaukee Irish Fest said that they played a paticular tune (I don't remember which one) traditionaly for the last figure of the Kilfenora Plain set. (I do remember him saying that it was a polka instead of the usually listed quadrille. ) Anyway, I'm wondering if there is a paticular set of tunes that is traditionaly played with the Kilfenora Plain set in the rest of the figures.
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Tunes with two parts
Tadhg, this thing about sets is always confusing in that there are dances known as sets and also sets of tunes put together by musicians which sometimes can be played for these dances. I'm not aware of a dance called the "Kilfenora Set" but there is a dance the "Clare Set" also known as "Caledonian" and also another called "the Plain Set". All these sets have a number of parts called figures that you can play different tunes for (so long as they're the right type - some need reels, others jigs, etc). Depending on the length of each figure, single or double tunes may fit best - someone like ceolachan would be an authority on this as he'd probably know the exact length of these figures. It just so happens that the tunes set known as the Kilfenora with each tune played three times fits exactly when played for the 5th figure of the Caledonian. As for the confusion on polkas, this may be explained by the Kilrush polkas, often played by the Kilfenora Céili Band, are in fact reels!
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes with two parts
Albrown, I assume you were being sarcastic about which came first, the tunes or the dances.
C. Nicolas
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by C. Nicolas
Re: Tunes with two parts
Just to try and give further clarification on the matter of “Kilfenora Sets” the tunes shown as Kilrush Polkas on the Kilfenora Céilí Band’s “Live in Lisdoonvarna” recording (http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/453) are listed as the the following reels here on the Yellow Board:-
Kilfenora Reel - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/252
Donie Nolan’s - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4319
Most people in Clare though would still call them the Kilrush Polkas.
As if there hasn’t been enough confusion on this topic already, there is also another category of Set Dances for step dancers such as St. Patrick’s Day, Job of Journeywork, Garden of the Daisies, The Blackbird, etc which can only be danced to those particular tunes.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Tunes with two parts
I find it hard to think of the second tune as a reel. I learned it from Tommie Keane around 1982 and like him have always considered it and played it as a hornpipe.
A lot of confusion can arise from the fact that the old Plain set as it was danced around Kilrush and westward to Carrigaholt to polkas. It's only the modern versions that have standardised some figures to reels. I recently heard Mick Tubridy discussing and lamenting this development.
Quite likely the same happened around Kilfenora, some places in North Clare certainly used to have figures of the set danced to polkas rather than the reels of the modern versions.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Tunes with two parts
The Kilfenora Plain set is a rather new set. Like the Corofin Plain set, it's a variation on the theme of the Clare Plain set.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Tadhg mac Saoirse