I was at a new session the other night and noticed that some of the tunes (in my humble opinion) were played at a ridiculous speed.
There were quite a few. I don’t mind so much when its reels played at light speed but there were jigs played that you couldn’t dance a jig to and hornpipes.. they played the Liverpool hornpipe at a ridiculous pace. Kinda like this (no offence to the young one in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgxBXUpzmFw
Seriously, how do you all play ye’r tunes? Am I just being pedantic?
Should tunes be played at a certain speed or is just a matter of whatever floats your boat at that particular time?
jigs met speed 113 to 120.
hornpipes147,but for hoppies 160
reels 100 to 105.
irish polkas 140.
blackbird,garden of daisies etc 140.
Slides 141.
slipjigs 113.
st patricks day 92
yes your right,the first clip is outrageously fast.and has no swing
the second clip,is in my opinion a fraction slow,but pretty good.
hornpipes for dancing in sets[hoppies] are played faster ,about 160
hornpipes[for country dancing] such as BelfastDuck, Nottingham swing about 147
.solo set dances are slower so the dancer can show off his her dancing skills.
Except that in regards to the girl in the first clip, her other videos indicate that she's an American old-time fiddler, not an Irish fiddler. In the long-established American old-time tradition, I believe that hornpipes are played fast and without swing. So, as far as her tradition goes, she's doing it right.
You're right session savage, hornpipes at the speed of the first clip just sound like yet another reel, and there's no way you can dance a hornpipe at that speed either. The second clip is just so much better.
Such a simple question.
Now let's see. Say you have a session & the players all follow one tempo ~ fantastic! who could ask for more. Now take a set & the players don't all desire one tempo ~ it has a push - pull effect Best to follow the tempo of the strongest player Afterwards suggest an alternate tempo. Hopefully the players are willing. Then you can play the set or one of the tunes. Now everyone gest a feel for this tempo.
In my humble opinion it just takes a bit of cmmunication & mutual respect. Without it you really don't have a session ~ at any speed.
Apologies for being preachy. The topic reflects last nights tempo factionalization.
Carry on!
Random_notes.. I know that.
I wasnt saying that the session was crap or had no 'communication' between the players. I was merely making an observation and am interested in how fast all you folks play your tunes.
as the fella once said "just because you can play fast doesnt mean you should"
Now of course there is such a thing as too fast or too slow, according to personal taste, to the abilities of people who are playing and some tunes are better suited to different tempos.
Why not say "I don't feel comfortable playing and don't enjoy them played" at that speed, rather than referring to some fictional dancers?
Personally I think when a jig for example, is played too fast to dance a jig to, it looses something. As does a hornpipe or any other dance tune. As I said though, its just my opinion.
Your assumption about American bluegrass old-timey style players is correct. We had a fellow come through our session a while back who asked to play Fishers' Hornpipe and then kicked it at a brisk reel speed. That's how it was taught to him.
Although I agree in principle with Dickens metronome suggestions, I have yet to attend a session with posted speed limits for tunes. However, as an intermediate player, the thing I force myself to do is not to get swept up in the tempos of the speed merchants. When I kick a set, I keep it reasonably within my skill level. If I loose the feel, the lift and the ornaments, I know I am playing too fast.
We call them dance tunes. what does it mean?
Sometimes you meet a (set) dancer who is spot on about letting you know the correct tempo. Other times, other dancers . . . & t's a whole different ballgame. At those times it's all diddley.
Savage it is tradition. If you are privy to the original intent please fill us in. Tunes, tempos, dances. players, versions, variatons .. . all change over time.
There is an 'Irish' hornpipe ~ 'Flowers of Edinburgh' which comes from a Scottish reel. Hw do you play it, what is the intent, how do you dance to it, how is it played differently without dancers?
The hornpipe in the first video was definitely un-danceable, but the second example was deliberately slowed down and heavily swung to accommodate the step dancer. Here are some examples of hornpipes that you can easily step-step-step-hop to around a dance floor.
Such an extraordinarily narrow minded straight jacket obviously belies a profound ignorance of what the tunes actually are and what they are capable of. Of what the tradition is and its flexibility. I'm flabbergasted
the allow ceili band were good
,ligg leachim,the original poster asked a question.
those are the speeds I like to play for dancing.
some jigs are better a little slower,some a little faster.which of course applies to all types of tunes.
speed for dancing, will also depend on the fitness of the dancers,and whether they are beginners or experienced dancers
yawn...yawn - got will everyone stop btiching about how fast people play, its boring. I play whatever I feel like on the night...I dont have a list of exact speeds that I follow - OH NO!!
A good dancer should be able to dance at any speed.
If you are playing at a session... play tunes however you feel like playing them. I tend to keep things nice and steady as i get lost if i play too fast.
If you are asked to play specifically for a Ceili or choreographed piece of work... it's best to ask the dancer/s to tap out the speed for you beforehand.
What *some* people *fail* to recognise is that people like playing at different speeds - we dont all have to be little cardboard copies of each other - we can have our own way of playing. Also some people just arent very good and are going to sound bad fast or slow.
As a dancer I must disagree with Davydd there is a range of speeds depending on what you are dancing .Too slow and you end up walking, too fast and there is not enough time to put the steps in ,gravity gets in the way .
No really... you CAN set dance at any speed to any type of tune(excepting slow airs) as long as the tune has constant/steady timing.
Bazouki Dave... you're being specific to what you've been taught as a stepdancer. (An unfortunate byproduct of competition dancing)
I know this may sound weird... but you can dance hornpipe steps to a reel or single jg... dance jig steps to a hornpipe... Don't limit yourself by just dancing to 'the norm'
'correct' tune tempo
'correct' tune tempo
I was at a new session the other night and noticed that some of the tunes (in my humble opinion) were played at a ridiculous speed.
There were quite a few. I don’t mind so much when its reels played at light speed but there were jigs played that you couldn’t dance a jig to and hornpipes.. they played the Liverpool hornpipe at a ridiculous pace. Kinda like this (no offence to the young one in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgxBXUpzmFw
But shouldn’t it be more like this??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA
Seriously, how do you all play ye’r tunes? Am I just being pedantic?
Should tunes be played at a certain speed or is just a matter of whatever floats your boat at that particular time?
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
jigs met speed 113 to 120.
hornpipes147,but for hoppies 160
reels 100 to 105.
irish polkas 140.
blackbird,garden of daisies etc 140.
Slides 141.
slipjigs 113.
st patricks day 92
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
yes your right,the first clip is outrageously fast.and has no swing
the second clip,is in my opinion a fraction slow,but pretty good.
hornpipes for dancing in sets[hoppies] are played faster ,about 160
hornpipes[for country dancing] such as BelfastDuck, Nottingham swing about 147
.solo set dances are slower so the dancer can show off his her dancing skills.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Lovely answer, thanks Dickens.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Except that in regards to the girl in the first clip, her other videos indicate that she's an American old-time fiddler, not an Irish fiddler. In the long-established American old-time tradition, I believe that hornpipes are played fast and without swing. So, as far as her tradition goes, she's doing it right.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Cool. You learn something new everyday eh?
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
You're right session savage, hornpipes at the speed of the first clip just sound like yet another reel, and there's no way you can dance a hornpipe at that speed either. The second clip is just so much better.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by cathycook
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Such a simple question.
Now let's see. Say you have a session & the players all follow one tempo ~ fantastic! who could ask for more. Now take a set & the players don't all desire one tempo ~ it has a push - pull effect Best to follow the tempo of the strongest player Afterwards suggest an alternate tempo. Hopefully the players are willing. Then you can play the set or one of the tunes. Now everyone gest a feel for this tempo.
In my humble opinion it just takes a bit of cmmunication & mutual respect. Without it you really don't have a session ~ at any speed.
Apologies for being preachy. The topic reflects last nights tempo factionalization.
Carry on!
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
If no one's dancing / wanting to dance I really don't see how the argument "you couldn't dance to it" holds.
(this said as someone who dances way more than he plays)
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Tirno
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Random_notes.. I know that.
I wasnt saying that the session was crap or had no 'communication' between the players. I was merely making an observation and am interested in how fast all you folks play your tunes.
as the fella once said "just because you can play fast doesnt mean you should"
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Now of course there is such a thing as too fast or too slow, according to personal taste, to the abilities of people who are playing and some tunes are better suited to different tempos.
Why not say "I don't feel comfortable playing and don't enjoy them played" at that speed, rather than referring to some fictional dancers?
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Tirno
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
To me, a tune played too fast is also less enjoyable to hear.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by sixholes
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Personally I think when a jig for example, is played too fast to dance a jig to, it looses something. As does a hornpipe or any other dance tune. As I said though, its just my opinion.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
In that case, does it not also lose something when played and nobody dances to it?
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Tirno
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Your assumption about American bluegrass old-timey style players is correct. We had a fellow come through our session a while back who asked to play Fishers' Hornpipe and then kicked it at a brisk reel speed. That's how it was taught to him.
Although I agree in principle with Dickens metronome suggestions, I have yet to attend a session with posted speed limits for tunes. However, as an intermediate player, the thing I force myself to do is not to get swept up in the tempos of the speed merchants. When I kick a set, I keep it reasonably within my skill level. If I loose the feel, the lift and the ornaments, I know I am playing too fast.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
We call them dance tunes. what does it mean?
Sometimes you meet a (set) dancer who is spot on about letting you know the correct tempo. Other times, other dancers . . . & t's a whole different ballgame. At those times it's all diddley.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
"In that case, does it not also lose something when played and nobody dances to it?"
No Tirno, I don't think so anyway. I only feel that something is lost when its played faster than originally intended.
I seriously doubt that and hornpipe was composed with the intention of playing it a reel speed.
I could be wrong though.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Understood Savage no problema. More or less tangential observations about tempo differences. Hope I am not hijackng you.
;)
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
No worries Random_notes. Hijack away lad
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by session savage
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Savage it is tradition. If you are privy to the original intent please fill us in. Tunes, tempos, dances. players, versions, variatons .. . all change over time.
There is an 'Irish' hornpipe ~ 'Flowers of Edinburgh' which comes from a Scottish reel. Hw do you play it, what is the intent, how do you dance to it, how is it played differently without dancers?
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
We are just getting up to speed.Too bad I have to go to work. See you savages later.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
I think that part of the problem is that some people seem to think that the faster you play a tune, the more impressive it is.
What they fail to realize, however, is that it is actually more difficult to play a tune well at a moderate tempo than at breakneck speed.
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Marklar
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
The hornpipe in the first video was definitely un-danceable, but the second example was deliberately slowed down and heavily swung to accommodate the step dancer. Here are some examples of hornpipes that you can easily step-step-step-hop to around a dance floor.
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_253_4_two_hornpipes_from_the_arrabawn_ceili_band
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_254_4_hornpipes
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_260_1_edel_fox
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_244_2_michael_king_with_a_hornpipe_and_two_reels
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_232_4_tara_breen_and_cathal_mac_an_ri_fiddle_flute_duet
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_241_3_bronwyn_de_paoron_fiddle
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_236_6_allow_ceili_band_hornpipe_at_the_2007_all_ireland
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
"reels 100 to 105" ...etc.
Such an extraordinarily narrow minded straight jacket obviously belies a profound ignorance of what the tunes actually are and what they are capable of. Of what the tradition is and its flexibility. I'm flabbergasted
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by ...
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
You know you are too fast when the dancers walk over to you and glare at you....
Watch for the high kicks!
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by zippydw
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
the allow ceili band were good
,ligg leachim,the original poster asked a question.
those are the speeds I like to play for dancing.
some jigs are better a little slower,some a little faster.which of course applies to all types of tunes.
speed for dancing, will also depend on the fitness of the dancers,and whether they are beginners or experienced dancers
enjoy being flabbergasted,
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
"Seriously, how do you all play ye’r tunes?"
not
Seriously, how do you all play ye’r tunes for dancers?
# Posted on August 20th 2008 by ...
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
yawn...yawn - got will everyone stop btiching about how fast people play, its boring. I play whatever I feel like on the night...I dont have a list of exact speeds that I follow - OH NO!!
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by bb
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
A good dancer should be able to dance at any speed.
If you are playing at a session... play tunes however you feel like playing them. I tend to keep things nice and steady as i get lost if i play too fast.
If you are asked to play specifically for a Ceili or choreographed piece of work... it's best to ask the dancer/s to tap out the speed for you beforehand.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by davydd
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
What *some* people *fail* to recognise is that people like playing at different speeds - we dont all have to be little cardboard copies of each other - we can have our own way of playing. Also some people just arent very good and are going to sound bad fast or slow.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by bb
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
not you Davydd - I know your awesome
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by bb
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
As a dancer I must disagree with Davydd there is a range of speeds depending on what you are dancing .Too slow and you end up walking, too fast and there is not enough time to put the steps in ,gravity gets in the way .
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
No really... you CAN set dance at any speed to any type of tune(excepting slow airs) as long as the tune has constant/steady timing.
Bazouki Dave... you're being specific to what you've been taught as a stepdancer. (An unfortunate byproduct of competition dancing)
I know this may sound weird... but you can dance hornpipe steps to a reel or single jg... dance jig steps to a hornpipe... Don't limit yourself by just dancing to 'the norm'
Boring!
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by davydd
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
Give em' the link kid! Show 'em how its done.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
No need for that sort of thing chuneboi
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by davydd
Re: 'correct' tune tempo
"we can have our own way of playing" well said bb
So why do they call it a session?
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by Ben Steen