I'm interested to know if anyone's come across 3/2 hornpipes that have survived the journey across the Irish Sea. The only one that comes to mind is James Kelly's: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1492
It seems strange that such a lovely musical shape should have remained stranded in England and the Borders, and not made it into the Irish tradition. I know that many have mutated into 9/8 time, but I wonder if there are any that have survived in their original form...
I've heard of 3/2's, but I'm not familiar with any of them. Do you have a link of someone playing one? I'd like to hear one played by a good musician, rather than a midi mock-up.
I've wondered that. I wonder if an answer lies in the political, social and musical history of the countries involved when 3/2 was a common musical form in England and parts of Scotland - this seems to have been in the c17 - 18.
Round 1770 the 4/4 hornpipe was coming in, duly eclipsing the 3/2 and becoming (instead of the 3/2? I don't know) a standard vehicle for solo step-dancing in England.
Michael Gorman's, a slip jig, is played as a 3/2 on the Bothy Band album "Old Hag You Have Killed Me", and as far as I remember Matt Molloy plays The Silver Slipper thus (another slip jig) on one of his. Can't think of any more I've heard from the Irish side except for a recent tune by Daithi Sproule, that I'll try to look up in a minute...
3/2s are all over the place in English music of the c17-18, notably in Baroque compositions, including works by Purcell and Handel - they turn up routinely as "hornpipes" in such pieces, I gather. They are in the metropolitan collections of the Playfords. I also read somewhere that sophisticated dances to 3/2 were made the more elaborate, to line the pockets of dancing-masters and keep out the riff-raff who could not afford them!
All this must surely have been adopted by the British / Anglo-Irish ascendancy in Dublin, at least. Maybe at that time (post-Cromwell, Penal Laws, etc.) there was a gulf of distrust and dislike between the ascendancy and much of the rest of society that the ascendency's music could not easily cross - I wouldn't know; but such things have not stopped other British tunes and tune-forms from being taken up.
I wonder if Carolan composed any 3/2s, taking an interest in Baroque music as he did. (And whatever was going on politically, he indeed composed for patrons with English or at any rate British surnames as well as for patrons with Irish ones.)
If you are interested in 3/2s, check out the recently epublished John of the Green The Cheshire Way by John Offord. It is packed with lots of 3/2s from the North West. There are some fantastic variation sets, such as Mr Prestons Hornpipe - these are long long tunes. there are also a number of shorter 3/2 tunes. As for an example of 3/2s in action. Try Eliza Carthy and Martin Greens album Dinner - it is a great album.
Alternatively you can listen to the fantastic Bristol band 'Spiro' on their myspace page. The tune 'The White Hart' is a 3/2 that can be found in John of the Green.
My understanding of the longer 3/2 variation sets is that they are often performance pieces rather than dance tunes with a fair degree of improvisation (as per Spiro's White Hart) involving the repetition and alteration (or maybe it the evolution) of the 'sets' as the tune continues over a fixed bass line. What is for certain is that they were eclipsed by the other time signatures. I don't know why this is - it may be because other time signatures were easier to dance to. The country dance craze of the 17th century in the UK was something associated with the more well off - it then ironically filtered down to the poorer margins of society later on - maybe the 3/2s just did not survive this transition. Why they never really travelled over to Ireland is a mystery - there are some excellent tunes. I suspect that they did get over to Ireland but did not survive or get taken into the tradition (to all intense and purposes they did decline quite considerably in England as they were superceeded by English Country Dance tunes of the south - i.e Morris tunes - it is only in recent years that we are seeing a resurgance of 3/2s in England)
For a really intersting article that contains a lot of info on 3/2s and English fiddle playing of the 17th 18th century, go to
tobes - that Village Music Project article's a marvellous mine of info on English music, not that I've read all the detailed stuff about fiddling.
It strikes me that the 3/2 rhythm can come with a whole variety of speeds and emphases, and be used for tunes that sound quite unlike each other in their overall nature. I've sometimes, too, been at a loss to know if a tune should be written in 3/2, 3/4 or 6/4 - and for all I know, other time signatures - and, judging by some settings I see, I've a feeling I'm not the only one here.
Re: Irish 3/2s - Was the rhythm ever adopted in Gaelic song?
One thing struck me: do the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages lend themselves to singing in 3/2? If they don't, that might be a reason why the rhythm didn't catch on in Ireland in the c16-17, when I assume a sizeable proportion of the population spoke Irish. I can't think off-hand of an Irish song in either English or Irish that uses the rhythm - not that I know a lot of songs.
I find it difficult to confuse 3/2 and 6/4. As far as I understand it, they're as different as 3/4 and 6/8, 3/2 being 3 beats to the bar, and 6/4 being two beats (it's compound time). 6/4 marches just sound like slow jigs with lots of embellishments. The 3/2 vs. 3/4 thing boils down to convention really. In the end it doesn't matter a great deal which you use to transcribe those hornpipes.
Irish 3/2s?
Irish 3/2s?
I'm interested to know if anyone's come across 3/2 hornpipes that have survived the journey across the Irish Sea. The only one that comes to mind is James Kelly's: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1492
It seems strange that such a lovely musical shape should have remained stranded in England and the Borders, and not made it into the Irish tradition. I know that many have mutated into 9/8 time, but I wonder if there are any that have survived in their original form...
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Irish 3/2s?
I've heard of 3/2's, but I'm not familiar with any of them. Do you have a link of someone playing one? I'd like to hear one played by a good musician, rather than a midi mock-up.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by B Rad
Re: Irish 3/2s?
I've wondered that. I wonder if an answer lies in the political, social and musical history of the countries involved when 3/2 was a common musical form in England and parts of Scotland - this seems to have been in the c17 - 18.
Round 1770 the 4/4 hornpipe was coming in, duly eclipsing the 3/2 and becoming (instead of the 3/2? I don't know) a standard vehicle for solo step-dancing in England.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s?
try this pipe version of rusty gulley ....
http://www.asaplive.com/farneaudio/m3u/borderpipes.m3u
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by spindizzy
Re: Irish 3/2s?
Wow, I've never heard it played in G Mix, what a great idea...
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Irish 3/2s?
Well, B Mix...
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Irish 3/2s?
Try this also:
http://www.richardheacock.co.uk/richard_heacock_004.htm
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Irish 3/2s?
well now, you learn something new everyday.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by xxfiddlesticksxx
Re: Irish 3/2s?
Michael Gorman's, a slip jig, is played as a 3/2 on the Bothy Band album "Old Hag You Have Killed Me", and as far as I remember Matt Molloy plays The Silver Slipper thus (another slip jig) on one of his. Can't think of any more I've heard from the Irish side except for a recent tune by Daithi Sproule, that I'll try to look up in a minute...
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s?
...It's called The Roseville, and is recorded on Altan's "Local Ground".
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s?
Nice one for spotting Michael Gorman's as a 3/2, I hadn't thought of that one.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Irish 3/2s?
But only the B-part of the Silver Slipper is in 3/2...
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by Dragut Reis
Re: Irish 3/2s?
3/2s are all over the place in English music of the c17-18, notably in Baroque compositions, including works by Purcell and Handel - they turn up routinely as "hornpipes" in such pieces, I gather. They are in the metropolitan collections of the Playfords. I also read somewhere that sophisticated dances to 3/2 were made the more elaborate, to line the pockets of dancing-masters and keep out the riff-raff who could not afford them!
All this must surely have been adopted by the British / Anglo-Irish ascendancy in Dublin, at least. Maybe at that time (post-Cromwell, Penal Laws, etc.) there was a gulf of distrust and dislike between the ascendancy and much of the rest of society that the ascendency's music could not easily cross - I wouldn't know; but such things have not stopped other British tunes and tune-forms from being taken up.
I wonder if Carolan composed any 3/2s, taking an interest in Baroque music as he did. (And whatever was going on politically, he indeed composed for patrons with English or at any rate British surnames as well as for patrons with Irish ones.)
# Posted on August 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s?
If you are interested in 3/2s, check out the recently epublished John of the Green The Cheshire Way by John Offord. It is packed with lots of 3/2s from the North West. There are some fantastic variation sets, such as Mr Prestons Hornpipe - these are long long tunes. there are also a number of shorter 3/2 tunes. As for an example of 3/2s in action. Try Eliza Carthy and Martin Greens album Dinner - it is a great album.
Alternatively you can listen to the fantastic Bristol band 'Spiro' on their myspace page. The tune 'The White Hart' is a 3/2 that can be found in John of the Green.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=63030125
My understanding of the longer 3/2 variation sets is that they are often performance pieces rather than dance tunes with a fair degree of improvisation (as per Spiro's White Hart) involving the repetition and alteration (or maybe it the evolution) of the 'sets' as the tune continues over a fixed bass line. What is for certain is that they were eclipsed by the other time signatures. I don't know why this is - it may be because other time signatures were easier to dance to. The country dance craze of the 17th century in the UK was something associated with the more well off - it then ironically filtered down to the poorer margins of society later on - maybe the 3/2s just did not survive this transition. Why they never really travelled over to Ireland is a mystery - there are some excellent tunes. I suspect that they did get over to Ireland but did not survive or get taken into the tradition (to all intense and purposes they did decline quite considerably in England as they were superceeded by English Country Dance tunes of the south - i.e Morris tunes - it is only in recent years that we are seeing a resurgance of 3/2s in England)
For a really intersting article that contains a lot of info on 3/2s and English fiddle playing of the 17th 18th century, go to
http://www.village-music-project.org.uk/roberts.htm
# Posted on August 9th 2008 by tobes
Re: Irish 3/2s?
I should have said in my previous post, "other British *and also Continental* tunes and tune-forms..."
# Posted on August 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s?
tobes - that Village Music Project article's a marvellous mine of info on English music, not that I've read all the detailed stuff about fiddling.
It strikes me that the 3/2 rhythm can come with a whole variety of speeds and emphases, and be used for tunes that sound quite unlike each other in their overall nature. I've sometimes, too, been at a loss to know if a tune should be written in 3/2, 3/4 or 6/4 - and for all I know, other time signatures - and, judging by some settings I see, I've a feeling I'm not the only one here.
# Posted on August 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s - Was the rhythm ever adopted in Gaelic song?
One thing struck me: do the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages lend themselves to singing in 3/2? If they don't, that might be a reason why the rhythm didn't catch on in Ireland in the c16-17, when I assume a sizeable proportion of the population spoke Irish. I can't think off-hand of an Irish song in either English or Irish that uses the rhythm - not that I know a lot of songs.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Irish 3/2s?
I agree, 3/2 is a 'broad' time signature - there can be a fair degree of interpretation over how a tune is played in 3/2
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by tobes
Re: Irish 3/2s?
I find it difficult to confuse 3/2 and 6/4. As far as I understand it, they're as different as 3/4 and 6/8, 3/2 being 3 beats to the bar, and 6/4 being two beats (it's compound time). 6/4 marches just sound like slow jigs with lots of embellishments. The 3/2 vs. 3/4 thing boils down to convention really. In the end it doesn't matter a great deal which you use to transcribe those hornpipes.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Irish 3/2s?
Aren't this better known as "hoop jigs" these days?
# Posted on August 12th 2008 by Georgi