After a World Fleadh weekend of music that, to my ears, varied from the sublime (the Máirtín O’ Connor band and, despite dreadful sound, Téada) through the bland ( Dublin Philharmonic Orchestra and a load of middle-of-the-roaders) to the downright offensive ( the ‘session’ that bawled approximate versions of The Fields of Athenry et al), something that sticks in my memory is just how partisan so many traditional musicians seemed to be. On numerous occasions, I saw some great performances marred for other listeners by the incessant chatter coming from the back of the room. (At one stage, a performer had to appeal for quiet).The culprits? Mostly other musicians. And there was I thinking that there existed in the trad community a great sense of camaraderie, mutual appreciation and support.
I've seen that happen too, and i agree that the mix of crowds and drink have a part in it. Sometimes it might not have anything to do with the alcohol, maybe just lack of any real interest. It also happens when there is an unappreciative (im not sure if thats spelled right lol) crowd (wich is also extremely frustrating when youre doing your level best to entertain) but basically my point is i agree 100%
In the instances I referred to, the majority of the audiences, despite free-flowing alcohol, wanted to listen. It was the boorish behaviour of certain musicians that made this difficult.
That's a good point granama. Seems a little tacky for the musicians themselves to do the shushing, but no such problems exist when it's other punters doing it so they can listen. It's like "Hey, we're trying to listen over here, keep it down, eh?" as opposed to "Silence you ignorant oafs, can't you see we musicians are making music?"
...and other musicians making lots of noise while other musicians are playing is even tackier than the musicians who are playing trying to shush people. Poor form.
Well, I was at a concert/party/dance last Saturday night where both groups (Tabawa (sp?) and La Troba Kung Fu - both billed as "rumba catalana", somewhat loosely in the latter case - neither anywhere close to ITM, except maybe, in a profoundly spiritual sense), in spite of being heavily over-amplified and PAed well into distortion limbo, were effectively drowned out by the audience. But then, that is par for the course in Catalonia.
I have experience of musicians behaving like this too. Is it sometimes a result of nerves? Some people talk a lot when they are nervous about performing or relieved at having survived.
It does seem that some musicians just don't seem to think anyone else is worth listening to.
The problem reedy grins is describing is more like the ordinary pub problem where people have come to talk and weren't expecting music. They then treat the live music as if it was a recording playing in the background and talk over it. That's much more understandable (though annoying of course).
Then the pub owner needs to advertise the fact that there is going to be live music at the pub in order to warn the people who want to come to the pub to talk with their friends or other people instead of listening to the music.
At the old-time music jam session at which I play bass once a month, if you want to talk to someone you are expected to go outside into the hall to talk so you won't disturb the people who are there to listen to the music. Since this gathering is held at the local Arts Center, no one is drinking alcoholic beverages.
As B. Francis was known to say, where is my head? Not Tabawa, but Papawa. But the observation still stands. Off course, it was intentionally a concert/dance/party, but even so ... Tellingly, the openers, Papawa, left before La Troba Kung Fu had finished their third tune. And they're buddies.
I've been in sessions where you can't hear the other players over the voices of other punters. That's a problem, but I think the original issue here was noise from musicians during what was more a performance rather than just a pub session.
I don't know - but if you listened to the hype surrounding this event on RTE radio and TV, they must have a great PR machine going. It was repeatedly announced that The World Fleadh is Ireland's and I think the World's Premier Irish Celtic Traditional Music festival etc .etc. Then there's Comhaltas running radio ads. promoting Tullamore at same time, presumably a bit of PR so that the public doesn't confuse the World Fleadh and the Fleadh Ceoil.
But we came through Portlaoise on Sunday evening and it was as quiet as a graveyard - whereas the village of Stradbally nearby was teeming with people - the annual Steam Rally was on there. I was talking to a mate who went over to Portlaoise on Saturday night and he gave up playing at 10.30 - the lads he was playing with were harassed by a bunch of yobos. He moved on but couldn't find any other sessions and packed it in.
It doesn't quite add up?
SWFL Fiddler....
On one occasion it was a staged performance in a club where alcohol was served. Most of the audience seened eager to listen but the noise - which far exceeded normal 'pub babble' - came from a group of musicians gathered at the bar. The other occasions were pub sessions.
You all make it sound like it's an unusual occurrence. Well, welcome to the world of Irish music. I have seen this happen dozens of times at concerts in Clare.
I remember one occasion at the Mrs Galvin weekend in Moyasta where Peadar Crotty grabbed the microphone while Kitty Hayes and myself wee playing and shouted 'will you shut up you feckers, this is lovely music!!'. didn't help ofcourse but it was funny.
kilfarboy..
But were the 'feckers who wouldn't shut up' musicians? That's my basic point in all of this... I was surprised by how boorish musicians could be towards other musicians.
I was amazed at the coverage of the World Fleadh on RTE. I was begining to think maybe I missed something. Then I read the cast list and realised that it was a well paid gig for most of the participants, most of who wouldn't lower themselves to play a few tunes with the likes of me. Roll on Tullamore I say.
God yes - I've seen musicians do it millions of times. It depends on the venue though - I mean if you are at the Hammersmith Irish arts centre and there are musicians at the bar talking then I don't see the problem. Its such a big venue etc. If its a tiny venue in a church hall or something I could see how it would be annoying. I do notice that the people who tend to get most indignant and offended about musicians talking at gigs are not musicians themselves.
a reason for this is probably because a lot of musicians who are well or known or asked to do things like concerts at these fests come fomr all over the country and these are the only opportunities fr them to catch up with one another. just because they are musicians doesn't mean they dont have a life outside of music, sometimes it can be hard to take part if one is so busy with work and what not.
I have noticed on my trips to Ireland that the music tends to be taken for granted by a large percentage of the audience who view it as background "noise". The same music is often respected more by the broader folk music scene. I think comments like tradmoosic's are very revealing since people who think that way contribute to the problem, which they often do not even see as a problem.
Interestingly enough - last time Lunasa were here, me and a big group of musicians got into trouble and written up in the local irish paper and 'nosiy and disruptive' because we were doing the 'hup' , 'whhooo' thing when they did a good change or went into a cool tunes. People here are only happy if you sit there in stony silence and clap appropriately at the end of each set. I swear they dont have a clue about showing appreciationg for trad. Someone acutally came up and told us to shut up because we were being rude. What an idiot- no clue and not a musician either...tut tut
Actually, bb, I can think of several well-known venues in both Ireland and the UK where you'd be escorted to the exit a brief moment after your first 'hup' or 'whhooo'. And rightly so.
can think of several well-known venues in both Ireland and the UK where you'd be escorted to the exit a brief moment after your first 'hup' or 'whhooo'. And rightly so.
This seems a fair enough comment, but there is a big difference between chatting loudly at the bar, which is usually completely disengaged from the music, and 'hup/whoo', which for the most part is a reaction TO the music. Many venues in London, the UK and Ireland would not have a problem with that; indeed nor would the musicians. You only have to go back and listen to Paddy in the Smoke to have clear evidence that these yells are an integral part of the the music, and many musicians derive enjoyment from them - at the thought that someone in the crowd has heard a turn of phrase, for instance, and enjoyed it enough to react to it.
I do agree that too much background noise from the bar is a pain, but remember a lot of people, musicians in particular, only meet each other when they are gathered at these types of events, so it's natural they would spend some time at the bar catching up. I'd also suggest that the vast majority of them are having a conversation and listeneing to the music at the same time. I know this does little to aid in your ability to hear the music at the event, but might make you reconsider the view that they are ignorant or just plain rude.
Oh as if! You two have no idea really do you? As it happens, afterwards I was talking to the guys in the band and they said they get really freaked out when it seems people arent into the music. They like a good hup or woohoo, but I wouldnt except either of you to undersand....especially you flossie - who doesnt even play outside your own house.
Actually - not you worzel. And flossie - Ive been to many gigs in Ireland and the Uk as well and let me assure you, there were lots of wooos and hups and nobody ever complained.
BB - glad to see the knee-jerk reaction wore off! The only reason I passed comment on this topic is that I've been called ignorant for talking during the music too - actaully happened this Willie week when a whole gang of us were playing a session. I was chatting to the musician beside me while the rest were playing away. This ignorant auld one told me to shut up and have respect for the other musicians (a group made up of many of my best friends). The irony of the whole thing was she was standing there with a minidisc in her hand but hadn't asked a single one of us if she could record the. A definate case of the ignorant pot calling the kettle black.
Yeah - sorry Worzel, I totally misread your post after reading the post that may take out 'stupidest post of the year award' before yours. I actually totally agree with everything you say. And I talk in sessions as well - if you dont then what is the point? I know heaps of tunes, if I didnt talk while someone was playing then I could effectively turn up and not say a word to anyone. Not very social is it?
That person with the minidisc sounds like an eejit with no clue. I dont know why I'm suprised - as I said before its usually the ones who *dont* or *cant* play tunes that complain when people talk.
"Actually, bb, I can think of several well-known venues in both Ireland and the UK where you'd be escorted to the exit a brief moment after your first 'hup' or 'whhooo'. And rightly so."
"only happy if you sit there in stony silence and clap appropriately at the end of each set."
That sounds more like a symphony concert or string quartet performance than listening to a band playing music in a bar.
Partisan musicians?
Partisan musicians?
After a World Fleadh weekend of music that, to my ears, varied from the sublime (the Máirtín O’ Connor band and, despite dreadful sound, Téada) through the bland ( Dublin Philharmonic Orchestra and a load of middle-of-the-roaders) to the downright offensive ( the ‘session’ that bawled approximate versions of The Fields of Athenry et al), something that sticks in my memory is just how partisan so many traditional musicians seemed to be. On numerous occasions, I saw some great performances marred for other listeners by the incessant chatter coming from the back of the room. (At one stage, a performer had to appeal for quiet).The culprits? Mostly other musicians. And there was I thinking that there existed in the trad community a great sense of camaraderie, mutual appreciation and support.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Partisan musicians?
Hmm, I've seen that before myself, but only with one guy in particular and he was an arrogant príck.
Perhaps its something that is unavoidable when you mix large crowds with alcohol?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by session savage
Re: Partisan musicians?
I've seen that happen too, and i agree that the mix of crowds and drink have a part in it. Sometimes it might not have anything to do with the alcohol, maybe just lack of any real interest. It also happens when there is an unappreciative (im not sure if thats spelled right lol) crowd (wich is also extremely frustrating when youre doing your level best to entertain) but basically my point is i agree 100%
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by bernadettem
Re: Partisan musicians?
In the instances I referred to, the majority of the audiences, despite free-flowing alcohol, wanted to listen. It was the boorish behaviour of certain musicians that made this difficult.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Partisan musicians?
I have seen this many times although, more often, it is the compere who appeals to the audience to be quiet, not the musicians.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Partisan musicians?
That's a good point granama. Seems a little tacky for the musicians themselves to do the shushing, but no such problems exist when it's other punters doing it so they can listen. It's like "Hey, we're trying to listen over here, keep it down, eh?" as opposed to "Silence you ignorant oafs, can't you see we musicians are making music?"
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Partisan musicians?
...and other musicians making lots of noise while other musicians are playing is even tackier than the musicians who are playing trying to shush people. Poor form.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Partisan musicians?
Well, I was at a concert/party/dance last Saturday night where both groups (Tabawa (sp?) and La Troba Kung Fu - both billed as "rumba catalana", somewhat loosely in the latter case - neither anywhere close to ITM, except maybe, in a profoundly spiritual sense), in spite of being heavily over-amplified and PAed well into distortion limbo, were effectively drowned out by the audience. But then, that is par for the course in Catalonia.
Sigh.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by reedy grins
Re: Partisan musicians?
I have experience of musicians behaving like this too. Is it sometimes a result of nerves? Some people talk a lot when they are nervous about performing or relieved at having survived.
It does seem that some musicians just don't seem to think anyone else is worth listening to.
The problem reedy grins is describing is more like the ordinary pub problem where people have come to talk and weren't expecting music. They then treat the live music as if it was a recording playing in the background and talk over it. That's much more understandable (though annoying of course).
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Partisan musicians?
Then the pub owner needs to advertise the fact that there is going to be live music at the pub in order to warn the people who want to come to the pub to talk with their friends or other people instead of listening to the music.
At the old-time music jam session at which I play bass once a month, if you want to talk to someone you are expected to go outside into the hall to talk so you won't disturb the people who are there to listen to the music. Since this gathering is held at the local Arts Center, no one is drinking alcoholic beverages.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Partisan musicians?
As B. Francis was known to say, where is my head? Not Tabawa, but Papawa. But the observation still stands. Off course, it was intentionally a concert/dance/party, but even so ... Tellingly, the openers, Papawa, left before La Troba Kung Fu had finished their third tune. And they're buddies.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by reedy grins
Re: Partisan musicians?
Well, there's the normal pub babble of conversation, that's one thing.
Then there's being obnoxiously loud, and they're not the same.
The humming babble of conversation and ambient pub noise is to be expected.
So maybe we should get more info. Was the crowd in question just doing the normal pub thing, or were they drunkenly hooting and hollering it up?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Partisan musicians?
I've been in sessions where you can't hear the other players over the voices of other punters. That's a problem, but I think the original issue here was noise from musicians during what was more a performance rather than just a pub session.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Partisan musicians?
I don't know - but if you listened to the hype surrounding this event on RTE radio and TV, they must have a great PR machine going. It was repeatedly announced that The World Fleadh is Ireland's and I think the World's Premier Irish Celtic Traditional Music festival etc .etc. Then there's Comhaltas running radio ads. promoting Tullamore at same time, presumably a bit of PR so that the public doesn't confuse the World Fleadh and the Fleadh Ceoil.
But we came through Portlaoise on Sunday evening and it was as quiet as a graveyard - whereas the village of Stradbally nearby was teeming with people - the annual Steam Rally was on there. I was talking to a mate who went over to Portlaoise on Saturday night and he gave up playing at 10.30 - the lads he was playing with were harassed by a bunch of yobos. He moved on but couldn't find any other sessions and packed it in.
It doesn't quite add up?
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Partisan musicians?
SWFL Fiddler....
On one occasion it was a staged performance in a club where alcohol was served. Most of the audience seened eager to listen but the noise - which far exceeded normal 'pub babble' - came from a group of musicians gathered at the bar. The other occasions were pub sessions.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Partisan musicians?
Thanks molaoch, crystal clear, and for sure it's a bit sad musicians wouldn't show a little more class at someone else's gig.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Partisan musicians?
You all make it sound like it's an unusual occurrence. Well, welcome to the world of Irish music. I have seen this happen dozens of times at concerts in Clare.
I remember one occasion at the Mrs Galvin weekend in Moyasta where Peadar Crotty grabbed the microphone while Kitty Hayes and myself wee playing and shouted 'will you shut up you feckers, this is lovely music!!'. didn't help ofcourse but it was funny.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Partisan musicians?
kilfarboy..
But were the 'feckers who wouldn't shut up' musicians? That's my basic point in all of this... I was surprised by how boorish musicians could be towards other musicians.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Partisan musicians?
In that case some of them at least. In a lot of other cases, most of them, yes.
Things depend a bit on the venue but if there's a bar, people will drink and talk.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Partisan musicians?
I was amazed at the coverage of the World Fleadh on RTE. I was begining to think maybe I missed something. Then I read the cast list and realised that it was a well paid gig for most of the participants, most of who wouldn't lower themselves to play a few tunes with the likes of me. Roll on Tullamore I say.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Partisan musicians?
God yes - I've seen musicians do it millions of times. It depends on the venue though - I mean if you are at the Hammersmith Irish arts centre and there are musicians at the bar talking then I don't see the problem. Its such a big venue etc. If its a tiny venue in a church hall or something I could see how it would be annoying. I do notice that the people who tend to get most indignant and offended about musicians talking at gigs are not musicians themselves.
# Posted on August 5th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
a reason for this is probably because a lot of musicians who are well or known or asked to do things like concerts at these fests come fomr all over the country and these are the only opportunities fr them to catch up with one another. just because they are musicians doesn't mean they dont have a life outside of music, sometimes it can be hard to take part if one is so busy with work and what not.
# Posted on August 8th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: Partisan musicians?
I have noticed on my trips to Ireland that the music tends to be taken for granted by a large percentage of the audience who view it as background "noise". The same music is often respected more by the broader folk music scene. I think comments like tradmoosic's are very revealing since people who think that way contribute to the problem, which they often do not even see as a problem.
# Posted on August 9th 2008 by sligofan
Re: Partisan musicians?
Interestingly enough - last time Lunasa were here, me and a big group of musicians got into trouble and written up in the local irish paper and 'nosiy and disruptive' because we were doing the 'hup' , 'whhooo' thing when they did a good change or went into a cool tunes. People here are only happy if you sit there in stony silence and clap appropriately at the end of each set. I swear they dont have a clue about showing appreciationg for trad. Someone acutally came up and told us to shut up because we were being rude. What an idiot- no clue and not a musician either...tut tut
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
Actually, bb, I can think of several well-known venues in both Ireland and the UK where you'd be escorted to the exit a brief moment after your first 'hup' or 'whhooo'. And rightly so.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Partisan musicians?
can think of several well-known venues in both Ireland and the UK where you'd be escorted to the exit a brief moment after your first 'hup' or 'whhooo'. And rightly so.
This seems a fair enough comment, but there is a big difference between chatting loudly at the bar, which is usually completely disengaged from the music, and 'hup/whoo', which for the most part is a reaction TO the music. Many venues in London, the UK and Ireland would not have a problem with that; indeed nor would the musicians. You only have to go back and listen to Paddy in the Smoke to have clear evidence that these yells are an integral part of the the music, and many musicians derive enjoyment from them - at the thought that someone in the crowd has heard a turn of phrase, for instance, and enjoyed it enough to react to it.
I do agree that too much background noise from the bar is a pain, but remember a lot of people, musicians in particular, only meet each other when they are gathered at these types of events, so it's natural they would spend some time at the bar catching up. I'd also suggest that the vast majority of them are having a conversation and listeneing to the music at the same time. I know this does little to aid in your ability to hear the music at the event, but might make you reconsider the view that they are ignorant or just plain rude.
Just another take on the subject.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Partisan musicians?
Oh as if! You two have no idea really do you? As it happens, afterwards I was talking to the guys in the band and they said they get really freaked out when it seems people arent into the music. They like a good hup or woohoo, but I wouldnt except either of you to undersand....especially you flossie - who doesnt even play outside your own house.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
Actually - not you worzel. And flossie - Ive been to many gigs in Ireland and the Uk as well and let me assure you, there were lots of wooos and hups and nobody ever complained.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
BB - glad to see the knee-jerk reaction wore off! The only reason I passed comment on this topic is that I've been called ignorant for talking during the music too - actaully happened this Willie week when a whole gang of us were playing a session. I was chatting to the musician beside me while the rest were playing away. This ignorant auld one told me to shut up and have respect for the other musicians (a group made up of many of my best friends). The irony of the whole thing was she was standing there with a minidisc in her hand but hadn't asked a single one of us if she could record the. A definate case of the ignorant pot calling the kettle black.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Partisan musicians?
Yeah - sorry Worzel, I totally misread your post after reading the post that may take out 'stupidest post of the year award' before yours. I actually totally agree with everything you say. And I talk in sessions as well - if you dont then what is the point? I know heaps of tunes, if I didnt talk while someone was playing then I could effectively turn up and not say a word to anyone. Not very social is it?
That person with the minidisc sounds like an eejit with no clue. I dont know why I'm suprised - as I said before its usually the ones who *dont* or *cant* play tunes that complain when people talk.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
"Actually, bb, I can think of several well-known venues in both Ireland and the UK where you'd be escorted to the exit a brief moment after your first 'hup' or 'whhooo'. And rightly so."
Please list these venues.
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Partisan musicians?
I dont think they exist - Ive been to loads of concerts all over and have never had a problem with a wooo
# Posted on August 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
Hang on Beebs, I'm serious. Wait and see what Flossie comes up with in the list. I'm genuinely intrigued.
# Posted on August 11th 2008 by Dr. Dow
Re: Partisan musicians?
"only happy if you sit there in stony silence and clap appropriately at the end of each set."
That sounds more like a symphony concert or string quartet performance than listening to a band playing music in a bar.
# Posted on August 11th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Partisan musicians?
yes - exactly. They wouldnt have a clue.
# Posted on August 12th 2008 by bb
Re: Partisan musicians?
While we're waiting, here's one we made earlier:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5585/
# Posted on August 12th 2008 by Just a person
Re: Parisian musicians?
What about Parisian musicians?
# Posted on August 12th 2008 by ceolachan