Hi All
Just to bring your attention to this dispute that can be found on this complimentery music web site :-http://www.tradmusic.com/newspage.asp?newsID=364
I have been buying C.D.'s for years not knowing what they were up to - what do you all think?
Alan
Geesh, makes me want to go illegally download music files from the internet. It would save me a lot of cash and the musicians get screwed either way, eh? It would certainly be interesting to hear Green Linnet's side of the story.
If the allegations of the Five are substantiated (as it seems it will), then the only sure way of supporting the artists is to buy directly from them, at gigs or from their personal websites. I have been doing this more of late and will continue into the future until I can be reasonably assured that buying from the local shop (or the web) will result in money landing in the artist's pockets, where it belongs.
I am a pretty vocal non-burner of CDs, but am now coming around to the idea of burning other people's CDs and then sending a cheque directly to the artist. At least that way I know they will have been paid for at least one copy!
So I have a bunch of CDs by Burke, CTL, Hayes et.al. that I bought from Green Linnet thinking I was supporting these folks and now look at the shelf and realise that these best of the best haven't been paid for their work. The dishonesty of Green Linnet management cheapens us all. Considering the social framework of this music and the inherent sharing that makes it work, it is truly baffling to me that thieves could work so openly for so long.
A principle that has affected me deeply for some time is "Morality is an outcome of the perception of the unity of all things." I guess Wendy Newton and her crew aren't very perceptive.
The RTE TV program on Planxty lately went to great lenght to explain how the band members were basically ripped off for their music by none other than Phil "butter would'nt melt in my mouth" Coulter, & shanachie records. Christy Moore said that there are very few things which make him angrier than some A***h*l* (as he put it) releasing Planxty songs on crap compilation albums- i.e the best Trad album of all time etc etc etc. Andy Irvine was saying that the owners of these brilliant albums have'nt even the respect to print the album notes properly i.e. song names such as "The West Coast Of Claire" . I have the albums and have to say that the quality of the album notes, covers etc is very poor.
Phil Coulter was trying (in vain ) to explain away all this and that it was'nt "exploitation" blah blah blah. I won't be buying many Coulter albums myself.
In the Irish version Of "American Idol" (whatever it was called) i remember someone saying that Coulter(who was a judge on the show) said to a hopeful teenage superstar that "you have to be more COMMERCIAL". Sound advice or maybe another money spinner for Coulter????. I wonder.
I have been worked up about this whole issue for some time. People who have an interest in this might want to read through the following link to get a detailed history of music industry theft and one artist's response to it. (It's long and very worthwhile).
To be fair, I'm pretty sure I know how this whole thing got started, with Wendy borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, not that that excuses this at all. I don't think that she did this maliciously, and still don't -- now she's buried in it too deep, and can't get out. Not that that helps either. She has been somewhat persona non grata for some time in the ITM community because of it. Anyway, it's been a long time coming, and everyone was awfully patient considering how angry they've been (and continue to be). I know plenty of the players have been trying their best to wait for her to straighten things out, and it's never happened. It's very sad.
I've been buying albums issued by Green Linnet since the early eighties (Vinyl and CD) and have always been very impressed by the quality of music and calibre of artistes--especially the likes of Mick Moloney, Liz Carroll, CTL etc. In fact, if I was browsing through a record stall and wavering over making a purchase, the fact that it was on Green Linnet would usually clinch it for me.
This makes it all the more sad that this company has exploited its artistes over the years. Although I will continue to listen to all the albums in my collection, I will probably think twice about buying any further albums issued by Green Linnet.
As the Ronnie Drew song says, it's a "Dirty Rotten Shame".
Zina, I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe this mess is just down to financial mismanagement. It seems to have been going on for so long and with sizeable sums of money. Also the company itself would appear to be big enough to be able to deliver what monies it was supposed to, to the artistes in question.
Another thing which struck me - are the artistes not in whatever the American equivalent of the Musician's Union, which here in the UK is the Trade Union which would fight the corner of the musicians in question.
I think for us to show some support to the leading exponents of our music, we should send details of that article to other potentially concerned publications, so that the story is completely out in the open.
Not at all, Danny. Things like wars and nuclear bombs and pogroms and such rarely start because of some kind of huge overall malice. They start from, basically, people being people, and it all adds up until it starts a momentum all past understanding by even the people involved in it.
I always think it's a mistake to start identifying a company as it's own entity. "It's the fault of Big Business!" may be a good rallying cry, but I suspect we'd actually get farther if we asked the actual people to be accountable. At the same time, we have to realize that people are only people, who make mistakes and open their mouths at the wrong time and stick feet in them.
In this case, Wendy, who loves the music so much but who is obviously a very poor financial decisionmaker overall, is in real trouble -- which she got herself into and which she needs to be held accountable for. The others in the *very* small company that is Green Linnet who either unknowingly or knowingly abetted this mismanagement should also be held accountable. But I do not think tagging them with meaning to do this is either productive nor the truth.
I think it should be noted that it took this long for the players to finally sue, which they've been talking about now for years, decades. They feel sorry for Wendy, as do I, and her staff, but they want what's owed them. Wendy's biggest mistake insofar as I can see has been her inability to admit she made mistakes and try to rectify them. I know lots of people with this character fault.
It does us absolutely no good to de-humanize anyone, even people who have done things that we violently disagree with. It just makes things even worse. While I agree that we need to show support for the players involved and that we should even consider a boycott of Green Linnet while this is in the courts, I also have a friendly acquaintance with someone who works for Wendy, and I'd never go out of my way to harm her, and I would certainly never demonize her.
To me, it's not the Evil Green Linnet Big Business Machine. It's a group of people who I know had and have the best intentions, and who honestly love this stuff every bit as much as I do. They want to get through the day like the rest of us do. They owe some people I admire money and satisfaction, and they are in big trouble. But they're not faceless monsters.
Ok, Ok...good points, Zina, very well put. But the musicians themselves do this for a living. It's their livelihood that's on the line.
I don't imagine they're poor, but they'd be nowhere near fabulously wealthy. I don't know about nowadays, but for a fair while Mairead Ni Mhaoinaigh still had to be a schoolteacher to survive.
Also look at others who've sold out of the tradition, eg Paul Brady. Now he's a rock star. Before, when he was arguably the finest interpreter of Traditional Song, he had to get in his car and travel the length of Ireland to play gigs. If people can't make it with this stuff, they''ll pull out. The Green Linnett shenanigans won't reverse that trend.
That's my take on it.
Zina, I wonder if you'd feel any differently if you didn't have connections with them... it's nice what you're saying - giving them the "benefit of the doubt" and all, but, unless the article is distorting the truth, it looks as though the musicians haven't been receiving *anything* for a long long time. You'd have thought they'd at least get "something-but-not-enough". And what about the compilations they've churned out? If that's an attempt to get more money in order to pay off debts to the musicians, why haven't they seen any of it? Like Danny says, that's how musicians earn a living to survive. Money doesn't just disappear into thin air - it gets redistributed to make some people wealthy and others not. Someone's taken more than their fair share and it stinks. No more Green Linnet recordings for me.
Doubt it, Mark. I didn't say a thing about giving them the benefit of the doubt, I said that it's important not to demonize them. That's not only because it's not good karma (d'you want the same for yourself?), but because then individuals have to take responsibility for their actions and consequences for choices (good and bad) made, instead of hiding behind some mythical creature called The Business. I happen to actually be for a boycott, as a matter of fact, which I believe I made clear in previous posts.
In other words, I was not talking about Them, I was talking about Me and You. How we react to other people's actions is importrant, and one of the things I personally believe in is that what goes around comes around.
Many of the artists have held off taking legal action for quite some time, for various reasons (feelings of powerlessness, wanting to give Wendy and her crew a chance, etc.), and I respect that and think more of them for it as human beings if not business people. I also think they deserve their due and should receive it.
But I don't think that anyone at Green Linnet did this out of personal malice, just general gormlessness that got out of control. If that's proved differently, then I'll be right in there with the insults with everyone else. I just find it hard to believe, given what I know of who I know.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Anderson. *grin*
As for *anything*, that depends on your outlook and the contract (with attendant issues of percentages and royalties past a certain point) that the artists signed. Studios of any kind generally pay for the upfront costs of an album and absorb quite a bit of expense in printing and duplication, etc. Without knowing all that information, tough to say whether they've received nothing or only a portion of what they deserve to get, which is why it's taken Lunasa (and everyone else) so long to get a suit together; without those important reports of what's been sold to whom for what cost, it's almost impossible to prove royalties.
My bet is that they're owed quite a bit, though. But who knows how much that is?
Lee, I don't think anyone has said that it's a malice thing. I think what I was talking about was greed. I'm sure that greed must be involved somewhere, and that it's not simply a case of someone being a drongo and messing up (whoops, I just mislaid a few grand, where did I put it again... ah yes, underneath the pile of papers by the phone, heh! as always". I don't mean to directly accuse anyone, I'm just saying that it's a possibility. If it's the case, then the Green Linnet people have dehumanised themselves, by hiding their greed behind "The Business".
I echo the congrats, Dow...now you gotta stay quit....that's the real challenge...if I could do it, anyone could, and I did. My other name is Mr. Weak-willed.
OK, then Zina, even if it is *mere* financial mismanagement, or just mismanagement, it still comes down to who ends up the victims...in this case it's most of the people for whom we, as a group of heads, have the greatest respect.
I have read your latest posts fully, I'm just droning on my point to make sure it sticks! Sorry, but I'm not trying to have a go at yourself, though.
Maybe there's more to it than the picture you paint of a dedicated, but less than efficient GL staff, following the diktats of the upper echelons of management. I looked through greg's link about ethical business (following his correction) and liked what I saw. I might come across as a raging pinko (very slightly true) but I think ethically-run business could almost persuade me otherwise.
Unfortunately it's not a widespread phenomenon, esp. in the music business. My girl's best friend's dad used to be the manager of a 70's-nearly-mega-band called Gong... even I remember the name...they were to be the next Genesis...but it all went pear-shaped as they got ripped off by some other geezer, who nicked all the rights and everything.
It boils down to *not* doing what you previously had publicly committed yourself to doing. That is misleading people and is criminal. If that's because of incompetence or malevolence, it doesn't matter, the end result is the same for the victim.
Never did I say 'twas MERE mismanagement, I think it's criminal that the players aren't getting their due; but I'm saying don't assume it's out of sheer greed until that's proven. GL wasn't started to make money, it was started to promote and record records, originally. That's why we all loved it so much, and why they had so many volunteers helping out. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that they were so busy robbing Peter to pay Paul that they lost track and now it's an irrevocable mess, especially since Wendy keeps saying that there's no mistakes made (which doesn't help at all until she proves it). That's all I'm sayin'. I mean, if y'all had gotten yourself into some mess, you'd want somebody out there like me saying, whoa now, he's not necessarily a bad stick, y'know. I certainly hope that someone would do it for me, because I never intend wrong, yet there's plenty to say I've done it.
And there's *my* droning on a point already made to make sure it sticks. *grin*
Hi. Yes, I just read the background and all the opinions on this train wreck. I have some observations.....
First, it looks like many of the artsts are hoping to be paid less that even $1.00 per cd. IMHO, that is a pathetically meager sum when the average price of these things seems to be like $16.99. Second, I don't like the famous lawyer who is demanding $10,000 per complaintant for what should be a no brainer "class action" suit against a horrendously sorry and fradulent record distributor.
Sadly, these artists are not going to be compensated....
They will succeed in bankrupting the rotten Green Linnet, but it will be like the shareholders of bankrupt WorldCom or Enron. There will be $-0- left in the till when the dust settles.
On the plus side,,, if there has ever been a more "opportune moment" for the start of a new distribution service, this is it. Sink the despicable Green Linnet, and emerge the phoenix, the new service that can handle this business in an ethical manner. Tell the bands to call me, I can tell them how to take the "loss" off of their taxable income, once the contracts are voided, That is a nice alternative to receiving NOTHING for the years of hard work. They can also sell the Green Linnet recordings under their new label. This is a HUGE win. To make this wirk, the "lawyer" MUST sink Green Linnet asap, next week would not be too soon.
I've just checked out the sleeve note about the "Don't Touch That Green Linnet" track on Tommy People's cd "The Quiet Glen", that Jeremy referred to in one of the earlier posts. Concerning the Green Linnet track, TP merely says "... I named after a small bird, to which innocent children got too close, unaware of its voraciousness".
"The Quiet Glen" cd is published by Tommy Peoples, and I purchased it directly from him. On checking through my collection of itm cds I see that I have bought at least half directly from the artistes concerned, either at gigs/workshops or by mail. As someone suggested earlier, this must be the way to go to ensure that musicians get their rightful dues in the light of this GL affair.
This whole thing is amazing. Trevor, your heart's in the right place, but I would quite expect that the artists you buy from have already paid Green Linnet for the road copies, in fact, they are probably being sold at full cost under contractual, promotional obligations to the label. If the band sold bootleg copies, it would allow Green Linnet to rescind the contract. Can you believe the ironic injustice there? The whole thing only works when both sides are honest. The only solution I can see for the State of Connecticut or the Federal District Attorney to intercede and force Green Linnet to stop all production and distribution. This will allow the bands to start over instead of going deeper into the hole. The band managers should be working the phones non-stop on behalf of their artists until they find the right sympathetic ear... Isn't the Senator from Connecticut a famous Irishman, Christopher Dodd.... Call his office!
Jeez, and I thought Nike was a scoundrel for the wages they paid their 3rd world children laborers... Green Linnet has set the bar at a new low.
(what set me off on this so hard? - read the story of how Green Linnet just released Lunasa's new album Redwood, from an MP3 copy of a promotional cd that was stolen from the band and smuggled to their offices. It's heartbreaking in it's callousness).
I meant "demo" cd,... not promotional, the album had only been mastered and the band was withholding it from Green Linnet, trying to negotiate an upfront payment or something financial, - given that they had not received any $$$ for their last three albums, and five years of work. So, someone stole a band copy of the disc on a laptop and sold it to Green Linnet which they remastered and released as Redwood. Saddam treated his prisoners better than Green Linnet treats their musicians.
Green Linnet categorically denies that, it should be said, Charlie. It frankly doesn't sound like the way they normally do business, so much so that I'm wondering what the real story is on that one. I'm not saying anyone is outright lying, just suspecting that there's some form of Telephone going on here...
Y'know, normally I'm the one arguing the outraged side. Can we stop being so flipping one sided that I can go back to my normal self now? Heh.
Ahhhh....When Lunasa recently appeared in Blackheath halls , Kevin Crawford mentioned this, but I didn't twig quite what he was on about. Now the penny has dropped.
If that's not blatant and scurrillous ripping off, tell me what is.
And if we're going to get into rhetoric -- sorry, I still don't think GL has treated any of their musicians as badly as a dictator treats prisoners. That's coming perilously close to The Nazi Principle!
Okay, so, you're an accountant, Charlie. Why don't you figure out a way in which a band's fans can contribute the $6,000 to $20,000 minimum costs of an album recording, and get a CD in return, and then the band can take everything else past cost? I mean, if you and others volunteer, I'm sure there'd be a lot less expenses that would need paying for, which would leave more for the bands.
Thank you Z for taking an ethical stand and reminding us all of how the karma ledger works. Bravo. I agree with the main point you seem to be making which is that it is easy to monstrify people that you don't know and that quick, easy explanations are usually the ones that stick, even if they have little or no basis in fact. Many people are still waiting to see the weapons of mass destruction that were the justification for the recent party in Iraq, for example.
I would like to soften the tone of my first post in this thread and delete the sentence which starts "I guess Wendy...". As I am not in posession of the facts, this is a personal and judgemental statement that doesn't belong outside of my head at this point.
However, I do stand behind the rest of my post and offer these further thoughts. As this discussion now seems to be approaching nasty, I would like to remind everyone of a related thread which you can read here:
and ask that we not go down that same path. This one got hot and I can say that I am firmly in Zina and K. Leahy's camp on that one. I found reading fiddler on vermouth's views particularly odious.
What it boils down to is that professional musicians are also business people by definition. They in turn have to deal with business people who are also legitimately trying to earn a living. The problem is, as Zina has pointed out, is that people are going to behave like people in the music biz as in all other human affairs. Some will be honest and open, others will hold something back close to their chest and others will actively try to deceive and cheat. And most of us will do a combination of all of the above plus countless other things in the course of time. One's own personal motives will only truly be known by one's self, and even then, that is debateable.
In an ideal world, one would treat others the way one would wish to be treated by them. As the world is not ideal, one can only strive for this ideal and reach it when you can. When we fail in this or a public example like the GL debacle being discussed here happens, it can serve as a reminder as to how to conduct our own affairs. This in turn can have a positive effect on our immediate world and the ripples can spread. Spewing vitriol at Wendy Newton and Co. misses the point entirely.
Focussing on how we can make a difference on our own micro scale is how change begins. As an audience, we can avoid buying records from labels that mistreat their artists, we can buy cds from the artist directly, we can send a cheque to an artist whose work we have burned or copied, we can lead by example in our own circle of friends, we can make value judgements based on fact and research rather than hearsay, etc. etc.
I am optimistic that many good things will come out of this bad situation and that we as the audience and community that supports this work and culture are the nameless people that can make it better.
I know Zina, there is a legitimate role for labels.
And probably what you are implying is that Wendy and her management team were boxed into the unfortunate situation of having to use the proceeds from their successful artists productions, to cover the costs of the unsuccessful ones. Which probably outnumber the money-makers 10 to 1. Painted into a corner, right? They did what they had to do for the label to survive. That will be Green Linnet defense in the trial. That is, however, illegal... Sadly, what needs to happen now is for the operation to be flushed and reformed into something viable, for owners AND artists. This does mean that new artists will not find recording contracts. That is a huge loss. But the successful bands cannot carry the freight for the new acts. Green Linnet had no legal or moral right to make that decision for them. They must now sleep in the bed they made for themselves.
*(and all this is assuming that there was only poor management involved, and not fraud and theft). I would personally be willing to bet that a line was crossed somewhere along the way. We'll see.
________________
Ps - you would not BELIEVE the new drum I received in the mail this morning. Seamus O'Kane's #1 prototype. I am fortunate beyond words!!!
Charlie, WHEN are you coming up? Now I'm dying to see the new drum as well as our finally getting together to meet in person. ;) Janet just ordered one of Alphonse's drums, and can hardly wait for it to arrive.
Greg, thanks for the vote of mom-hood, but perhaps not -- I have a hard enough time riding herd on ME... Heh. I will say that Kerri is a good friend (who I miss a lot now that she rarely to never posts...).
Don't change the subject in the middle of an argument, he.....! I'll come up for a show-and-tell when Janet gets that new drum. She made a great choice. I'm still lamenting that swallowhill cancelled the "session class" last week due to lack of interest. Happily, Blayne Chastain is going to get me started at Fado.
We can all meditate on karma and our next life and let's not get too upset about this one in case ye'll come back as a slug. The Christian Thought Police have a similar method of people control called heaven and hell....
Geezabrek.
Do you 'Know', for a fact, that Reincarnation, or Heaven and Hell, actually exist?
My belief system is, what I perceive as I experience it, no future, no past. And here we have that chance for 70-odd years. I call that the Real World. I don't know if it will ever become a Perfect World as Homo sapiens 'evolves' but.... *here we are.*
And.... from what I've seen here, the upper echelons of green linnet have acted in a way that they should be shown up in public. We are a gregarious species, where such dynamics happen all the time.... And have done for 1000's of years, since trade began - Ancient Golden Rule of the Mesopotamians (Iraq 9,000 years ago) .....don't deal with dodgy geezers. That's trade for ye.
If I were a Carpenter.... and a client didn't pay up... I'd make sure all the other chippies and plumbers etc., knew about it. I wouldn't go meditating yer man will be a slug next time round. If ye did, all crime would become legitimised. There'd be no actual Law.
That's why we live in a Civil Society.
Go all buddhist on us if ye want, but ye have to pick the bad weeds out of the garden, keep the true lamp lit, be ready for yer maker, should you require more religious analogies.
Yes? What do you do with "what goes around, comes around," Daniel? (That's my own definition of karma, y'see. Hasn't anything to do with reincarnation in my book, nor your station in life and your resignation to it. Might be diff for someone else.) Like your namesake, you never mind sticking the head into the lion's den, do you? *grin*
Charlie, d'you mean the Sunday or Monday session at Fado? I'll show up there if you tell me which you're going to.
What goes around comes around? Yeah, it's a good proverb and often does turn out to be the case. But there's no actual *proof* that even that exists as some kinda law of physics in the universe.
Hell. I'm beginning to sound like PP...
It IS on subject Al.
So what, a little cul de sac of philosophy. 3 point turn and we're back on the highway again.....now that we're on it again...
....what meaty morsel were you going to throw into the pit to get us all salivating again, to get us to rip even more lumps out of the already writhing and moribund GL?
So I'm in the middle of planning the new borders for our new garden in our new house, if anyone will ever kindly buy our old one. The person who planted the current garden apparently either doesn't know anything about gardening, or just bought a bunch of stuff and binged it in for effect, because there's all kinds of things like an iris five inches away from a butterfly bush. Not that that's any more heinous a crime, I suppose, then my husband putting iris in a bed about seven inches deep next to the garage (before we were married, I mean).
Hmmm? Oh, sorry, Alan. *grin* Didn't realize we had to stick severely to one subject. We've always basically treated threads as opportunities for highjackings around these parts, not unlike the conversation around a table at your local. Still, if it pleases you in this instance, I suppose we can, since this thread has largely burnt itself out anyway. *snort*
Otherwise I'd just tell you to take a hike. Heh. (That was supposed to be humor and tongue in cheek, in case anyone failed to notice. *grin*)
Hmmm, let's get this ball trundling again, even if it's at slow speed. On looking through my ITM/folk fiddle cds, only two are from GL, both Martin Hayes as it happened, and I bought them at his concerts. Most of the rest are produced by record companies in Ireland, and Tommy Peoples for instance evidently now produces his own cds
.
Of the non-Irish produced cds, Gina Griffin's "The Lost Fiddler" was produced by a Japanese company, and Dave Brown's "Outside the Square" was recorded, engineered and produced by him - he has his own recording studio in Warminster, England.
Don't forget, on this side of the Pond, and elsewhere, we're looking to you guys in the States to keep the rest of us up to date on developments in this GL debacle!
I haven't kept updated on this situation, but I do have one small addition: I saw Lunasa just this last weekend, and they asked that everyone with the faulty CD send it back to Green Linnet in exchange for the actual mastered version. The artwork is still wrong; but the band itself has corrected copies for sale.
The Green Linnet Five
The Green Linnet Five
Hi All
Just to bring your attention to this dispute that can be found on this complimentery music web site :-http://www.tradmusic.com/newspage.asp?newsID=364
I have been buying C.D.'s for years not knowing what they were up to - what do you all think?
Alan
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Geesh, makes me want to go illegally download music files from the internet. It would save me a lot of cash and the musicians get screwed either way, eh? It would certainly be interesting to hear Green Linnet's side of the story.
Batlady
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Michele Sims
Re: The Green Linnet Five
This explains why Tommy Peoples has a track entitled "Don't Touch The Green Linnet":
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display.php/53
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Jeremy
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I hope it's not on the Green Linnet label !!!!!
Alan
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: The Green Linnet Five
If the allegations of the Five are substantiated (as it seems it will), then the only sure way of supporting the artists is to buy directly from them, at gigs or from their personal websites. I have been doing this more of late and will continue into the future until I can be reasonably assured that buying from the local shop (or the web) will result in money landing in the artist's pockets, where it belongs.
I am a pretty vocal non-burner of CDs, but am now coming around to the idea of burning other people's CDs and then sending a cheque directly to the artist. At least that way I know they will have been paid for at least one copy!
So I have a bunch of CDs by Burke, CTL, Hayes et.al. that I bought from Green Linnet thinking I was supporting these folks and now look at the shelf and realise that these best of the best haven't been paid for their work. The dishonesty of Green Linnet management cheapens us all. Considering the social framework of this music and the inherent sharing that makes it work, it is truly baffling to me that thieves could work so openly for so long.
A principle that has affected me deeply for some time is "Morality is an outcome of the perception of the unity of all things." I guess Wendy Newton and her crew aren't very perceptive.
A former Green Linnet customer,
Greg
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by octogreg
Re: The Green Linnet Five
The RTE TV program on Planxty lately went to great lenght to explain how the band members were basically ripped off for their music by none other than Phil "butter would'nt melt in my mouth" Coulter, & shanachie records. Christy Moore said that there are very few things which make him angrier than some A***h*l* (as he put it) releasing Planxty songs on crap compilation albums- i.e the best Trad album of all time etc etc etc. Andy Irvine was saying that the owners of these brilliant albums have'nt even the respect to print the album notes properly i.e. song names such as "The West Coast Of Claire" . I have the albums and have to say that the quality of the album notes, covers etc is very poor.
Phil Coulter was trying (in vain ) to explain away all this and that it was'nt "exploitation" blah blah blah. I won't be buying many Coulter albums myself.
In the Irish version Of "American Idol" (whatever it was called) i remember someone saying that Coulter(who was a judge on the show) said to a hopeful teenage superstar that "you have to be more COMMERCIAL". Sound advice or maybe another money spinner for Coulter????. I wonder.
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I have been worked up about this whole issue for some time. People who have an interest in this might want to read through the following link to get a detailed history of music industry theft and one artist's response to it. (It's long and very worthwhile).
http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com/diary/
Cheers,
Greg
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by octogreg
Follow the link
Sorry. Follow the above link to "Business Aims" if you're interested.
Cheers,
Greg
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by octogreg
Re: The Green Linnet Five
To be fair, I'm pretty sure I know how this whole thing got started, with Wendy borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, not that that excuses this at all. I don't think that she did this maliciously, and still don't -- now she's buried in it too deep, and can't get out. Not that that helps either. She has been somewhat persona non grata for some time in the ITM community because of it. Anyway, it's been a long time coming, and everyone was awfully patient considering how angry they've been (and continue to be). I know plenty of the players have been trying their best to wait for her to straighten things out, and it's never happened. It's very sad.
Zina
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I've been buying albums issued by Green Linnet since the early eighties (Vinyl and CD) and have always been very impressed by the quality of music and calibre of artistes--especially the likes of Mick Moloney, Liz Carroll, CTL etc. In fact, if I was browsing through a record stall and wavering over making a purchase, the fact that it was on Green Linnet would usually clinch it for me.
This makes it all the more sad that this company has exploited its artistes over the years. Although I will continue to listen to all the albums in my collection, I will probably think twice about buying any further albums issued by Green Linnet.
As the Ronnie Drew song says, it's a "Dirty Rotten Shame".
John
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by John J.
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Zina, I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe this mess is just down to financial mismanagement. It seems to have been going on for so long and with sizeable sums of money. Also the company itself would appear to be big enough to be able to deliver what monies it was supposed to, to the artistes in question.
Another thing which struck me - are the artistes not in whatever the American equivalent of the Musician's Union, which here in the UK is the Trade Union which would fight the corner of the musicians in question.
I think for us to show some support to the leading exponents of our music, we should send details of that article to other potentially concerned publications, so that the story is completely out in the open.
Danny.
# Posted on July 9th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Not at all, Danny. Things like wars and nuclear bombs and pogroms and such rarely start because of some kind of huge overall malice. They start from, basically, people being people, and it all adds up until it starts a momentum all past understanding by even the people involved in it.
I always think it's a mistake to start identifying a company as it's own entity. "It's the fault of Big Business!" may be a good rallying cry, but I suspect we'd actually get farther if we asked the actual people to be accountable. At the same time, we have to realize that people are only people, who make mistakes and open their mouths at the wrong time and stick feet in them.
In this case, Wendy, who loves the music so much but who is obviously a very poor financial decisionmaker overall, is in real trouble -- which she got herself into and which she needs to be held accountable for. The others in the *very* small company that is Green Linnet who either unknowingly or knowingly abetted this mismanagement should also be held accountable. But I do not think tagging them with meaning to do this is either productive nor the truth.
I think it should be noted that it took this long for the players to finally sue, which they've been talking about now for years, decades. They feel sorry for Wendy, as do I, and her staff, but they want what's owed them. Wendy's biggest mistake insofar as I can see has been her inability to admit she made mistakes and try to rectify them. I know lots of people with this character fault.
It does us absolutely no good to de-humanize anyone, even people who have done things that we violently disagree with. It just makes things even worse. While I agree that we need to show support for the players involved and that we should even consider a boycott of Green Linnet while this is in the courts, I also have a friendly acquaintance with someone who works for Wendy, and I'd never go out of my way to harm her, and I would certainly never demonize her.
To me, it's not the Evil Green Linnet Big Business Machine. It's a group of people who I know had and have the best intentions, and who honestly love this stuff every bit as much as I do. They want to get through the day like the rest of us do. They owe some people I admire money and satisfaction, and they are in big trouble. But they're not faceless monsters.
zls
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Ok, Ok...good points, Zina, very well put. But the musicians themselves do this for a living. It's their livelihood that's on the line.
I don't imagine they're poor, but they'd be nowhere near fabulously wealthy. I don't know about nowadays, but for a fair while Mairead Ni Mhaoinaigh still had to be a schoolteacher to survive.
Also look at others who've sold out of the tradition, eg Paul Brady. Now he's a rock star. Before, when he was arguably the finest interpreter of Traditional Song, he had to get in his car and travel the length of Ireland to play gigs. If people can't make it with this stuff, they''ll pull out. The Green Linnett shenanigans won't reverse that trend.
That's my take on it.
Danny.
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Zina, I wonder if you'd feel any differently if you didn't have connections with them... it's nice what you're saying - giving them the "benefit of the doubt" and all, but, unless the article is distorting the truth, it looks as though the musicians haven't been receiving *anything* for a long long time. You'd have thought they'd at least get "something-but-not-enough". And what about the compilations they've churned out? If that's an attempt to get more money in order to pay off debts to the musicians, why haven't they seen any of it? Like Danny says, that's how musicians earn a living to survive. Money doesn't just disappear into thin air - it gets redistributed to make some people wealthy and others not. Someone's taken more than their fair share and it stinks. No more Green Linnet recordings for me.
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Doubt it, Mark. I didn't say a thing about giving them the benefit of the doubt, I said that it's important not to demonize them. That's not only because it's not good karma (d'you want the same for yourself?), but because then individuals have to take responsibility for their actions and consequences for choices (good and bad) made, instead of hiding behind some mythical creature called The Business. I happen to actually be for a boycott, as a matter of fact, which I believe I made clear in previous posts.
In other words, I was not talking about Them, I was talking about Me and You. How we react to other people's actions is importrant, and one of the things I personally believe in is that what goes around comes around.
Many of the artists have held off taking legal action for quite some time, for various reasons (feelings of powerlessness, wanting to give Wendy and her crew a chance, etc.), and I respect that and think more of them for it as human beings if not business people. I also think they deserve their due and should receive it.
But I don't think that anyone at Green Linnet did this out of personal malice, just general gormlessness that got out of control. If that's proved differently, then I'll be right in there with the insults with everyone else. I just find it hard to believe, given what I know of who I know.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Anderson. *grin*
zls
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
No thanks, I've quit.
...Since yesterday actually
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
P.S.
As for *anything*, that depends on your outlook and the contract (with attendant issues of percentages and royalties past a certain point) that the artists signed. Studios of any kind generally pay for the upfront costs of an album and absorb quite a bit of expense in printing and duplication, etc. Without knowing all that information, tough to say whether they've received nothing or only a portion of what they deserve to get, which is why it's taken Lunasa (and everyone else) so long to get a suit together; without those important reports of what's been sold to whom for what cost, it's almost impossible to prove royalties.
My bet is that they're owed quite a bit, though. But who knows how much that is?
zls
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
You quit!? Good for you!
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Lee, I don't think anyone has said that it's a malice thing. I think what I was talking about was greed. I'm sure that greed must be involved somewhere, and that it's not simply a case of someone being a drongo and messing up (whoops, I just mislaid a few grand, where did I put it again... ah yes, underneath the pile of papers by the phone, heh! as always". I don't mean to directly accuse anyone, I'm just saying that it's a possibility. If it's the case, then the Green Linnet people have dehumanised themselves, by hiding their greed behind "The Business".
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I echo the congrats, Dow...now you gotta stay quit....that's the real challenge...if I could do it, anyone could, and I did. My other name is Mr. Weak-willed.
OK, then Zina, even if it is *mere* financial mismanagement, or just mismanagement, it still comes down to who ends up the victims...in this case it's most of the people for whom we, as a group of heads, have the greatest respect.
I have read your latest posts fully, I'm just droning on my point to make sure it sticks! Sorry, but I'm not trying to have a go at yourself, though.
Maybe there's more to it than the picture you paint of a dedicated, but less than efficient GL staff, following the diktats of the upper echelons of management. I looked through greg's link about ethical business (following his correction) and liked what I saw. I might come across as a raging pinko (very slightly true) but I think ethically-run business could almost persuade me otherwise.
Unfortunately it's not a widespread phenomenon, esp. in the music business. My girl's best friend's dad used to be the manager of a 70's-nearly-mega-band called Gong... even I remember the name...they were to be the next Genesis...but it all went pear-shaped as they got ripped off by some other geezer, who nicked all the rights and everything.
It boils down to *not* doing what you previously had publicly committed yourself to doing. That is misleading people and is criminal. If that's because of incompetence or malevolence, it doesn't matter, the end result is the same for the victim.
Clinical Danny.
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Never did I say 'twas MERE mismanagement, I think it's criminal that the players aren't getting their due; but I'm saying don't assume it's out of sheer greed until that's proven. GL wasn't started to make money, it was started to promote and record records, originally. That's why we all loved it so much, and why they had so many volunteers helping out. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that they were so busy robbing Peter to pay Paul that they lost track and now it's an irrevocable mess, especially since Wendy keeps saying that there's no mistakes made (which doesn't help at all until she proves it). That's all I'm sayin'. I mean, if y'all had gotten yourself into some mess, you'd want somebody out there like me saying, whoa now, he's not necessarily a bad stick, y'know. I certainly hope that someone would do it for me, because I never intend wrong, yet there's plenty to say I've done it.
And there's *my* droning on a point already made to make sure it sticks. *grin*
zls
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Hi. Yes, I just read the background and all the opinions on this train wreck. I have some observations.....
First, it looks like many of the artsts are hoping to be paid less that even $1.00 per cd. IMHO, that is a pathetically meager sum when the average price of these things seems to be like $16.99. Second, I don't like the famous lawyer who is demanding $10,000 per complaintant for what should be a no brainer "class action" suit against a horrendously sorry and fradulent record distributor.
Sadly, these artists are not going to be compensated....
They will succeed in bankrupting the rotten Green Linnet, but it will be like the shareholders of bankrupt WorldCom or Enron. There will be $-0- left in the till when the dust settles.
On the plus side,,, if there has ever been a more "opportune moment" for the start of a new distribution service, this is it. Sink the despicable Green Linnet, and emerge the phoenix, the new service that can handle this business in an ethical manner. Tell the bands to call me, I can tell them how to take the "loss" off of their taxable income, once the contracts are voided, That is a nice alternative to receiving NOTHING for the years of hard work. They can also sell the Green Linnet recordings under their new label. This is a HUGE win. To make this wirk, the "lawyer" MUST sink Green Linnet asap, next week would not be too soon.
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I've just checked out the sleeve note about the "Don't Touch That Green Linnet" track on Tommy People's cd "The Quiet Glen", that Jeremy referred to in one of the earlier posts. Concerning the Green Linnet track, TP merely says "... I named after a small bird, to which innocent children got too close, unaware of its voraciousness".
"The Quiet Glen" cd is published by Tommy Peoples, and I purchased it directly from him. On checking through my collection of itm cds I see that I have bought at least half directly from the artistes concerned, either at gigs/workshops or by mail. As someone suggested earlier, this must be the way to go to ensure that musicians get their rightful dues in the light of this GL affair.
Trevor
# Posted on July 10th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The Green Linnet Five
This whole thing is amazing. Trevor, your heart's in the right place, but I would quite expect that the artists you buy from have already paid Green Linnet for the road copies, in fact, they are probably being sold at full cost under contractual, promotional obligations to the label. If the band sold bootleg copies, it would allow Green Linnet to rescind the contract. Can you believe the ironic injustice there? The whole thing only works when both sides are honest. The only solution I can see for the State of Connecticut or the Federal District Attorney to intercede and force Green Linnet to stop all production and distribution. This will allow the bands to start over instead of going deeper into the hole. The band managers should be working the phones non-stop on behalf of their artists until they find the right sympathetic ear... Isn't the Senator from Connecticut a famous Irishman, Christopher Dodd.... Call his office!
Jeez, and I thought Nike was a scoundrel for the wages they paid their 3rd world children laborers... Green Linnet has set the bar at a new low.
(what set me off on this so hard? - read the story of how Green Linnet just released Lunasa's new album Redwood, from an MP3 copy of a promotional cd that was stolen from the band and smuggled to their offices. It's heartbreaking in it's callousness).
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by irish ruff
I meant "demo" cd,... not promotional, the album had only been mastered and the band was withholding it from Green Linnet, trying to negotiate an upfront payment or something financial, - given that they had not received any $$$ for their last three albums, and five years of work. So, someone stole a band copy of the disc on a laptop and sold it to Green Linnet which they remastered and released as Redwood. Saddam treated his prisoners better than Green Linnet treats their musicians.
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Green Linnet categorically denies that, it should be said, Charlie. It frankly doesn't sound like the way they normally do business, so much so that I'm wondering what the real story is on that one. I'm not saying anyone is outright lying, just suspecting that there's some form of Telephone going on here...
Y'know, normally I'm the one arguing the outraged side. Can we stop being so flipping one sided that I can go back to my normal self now? Heh.
zls
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Ahhhh....When Lunasa recently appeared in Blackheath halls , Kevin Crawford mentioned this, but I didn't twig quite what he was on about. Now the penny has dropped.
If that's not blatant and scurrillous ripping off, tell me what is.
Danny.
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Rudall the time
Hmmm...
And if we're going to get into rhetoric -- sorry, I still don't think GL has treated any of their musicians as badly as a dictator treats prisoners. That's coming perilously close to The Nazi Principle!
Okay, so, you're an accountant, Charlie. Why don't you figure out a way in which a band's fans can contribute the $6,000 to $20,000 minimum costs of an album recording, and get a CD in return, and then the band can take everything else past cost? I mean, if you and others volunteer, I'm sure there'd be a lot less expenses that would need paying for, which would leave more for the bands.
zls
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Zina = session.org mom!
Thank you Z for taking an ethical stand and reminding us all of how the karma ledger works. Bravo. I agree with the main point you seem to be making which is that it is easy to monstrify people that you don't know and that quick, easy explanations are usually the ones that stick, even if they have little or no basis in fact. Many people are still waiting to see the weapons of mass destruction that were the justification for the recent party in Iraq, for example.
I would like to soften the tone of my first post in this thread and delete the sentence which starts "I guess Wendy...". As I am not in posession of the facts, this is a personal and judgemental statement that doesn't belong outside of my head at this point.
However, I do stand behind the rest of my post and offer these further thoughts. As this discussion now seems to be approaching nasty, I would like to remind everyone of a related thread which you can read here:
http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/472
and ask that we not go down that same path. This one got hot and I can say that I am firmly in Zina and K. Leahy's camp on that one. I found reading fiddler on vermouth's views particularly odious.
What it boils down to is that professional musicians are also business people by definition. They in turn have to deal with business people who are also legitimately trying to earn a living. The problem is, as Zina has pointed out, is that people are going to behave like people in the music biz as in all other human affairs. Some will be honest and open, others will hold something back close to their chest and others will actively try to deceive and cheat. And most of us will do a combination of all of the above plus countless other things in the course of time. One's own personal motives will only truly be known by one's self, and even then, that is debateable.
In an ideal world, one would treat others the way one would wish to be treated by them. As the world is not ideal, one can only strive for this ideal and reach it when you can. When we fail in this or a public example like the GL debacle being discussed here happens, it can serve as a reminder as to how to conduct our own affairs. This in turn can have a positive effect on our immediate world and the ripples can spread. Spewing vitriol at Wendy Newton and Co. misses the point entirely.
Focussing on how we can make a difference on our own micro scale is how change begins. As an audience, we can avoid buying records from labels that mistreat their artists, we can buy cds from the artist directly, we can send a cheque to an artist whose work we have burned or copied, we can lead by example in our own circle of friends, we can make value judgements based on fact and research rather than hearsay, etc. etc.
I am optimistic that many good things will come out of this bad situation and that we as the audience and community that supports this work and culture are the nameless people that can make it better.
Cheers,
Greg
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by octogreg
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I know Zina, there is a legitimate role for labels.
And probably what you are implying is that Wendy and her management team were boxed into the unfortunate situation of having to use the proceeds from their successful artists productions, to cover the costs of the unsuccessful ones. Which probably outnumber the money-makers 10 to 1. Painted into a corner, right? They did what they had to do for the label to survive. That will be Green Linnet defense in the trial. That is, however, illegal... Sadly, what needs to happen now is for the operation to be flushed and reformed into something viable, for owners AND artists. This does mean that new artists will not find recording contracts. That is a huge loss. But the successful bands cannot carry the freight for the new acts. Green Linnet had no legal or moral right to make that decision for them. They must now sleep in the bed they made for themselves.
*(and all this is assuming that there was only poor management involved, and not fraud and theft). I would personally be willing to bet that a line was crossed somewhere along the way. We'll see.
________________
Ps - you would not BELIEVE the new drum I received in the mail this morning. Seamus O'Kane's #1 prototype. I am fortunate beyond words!!!
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Charlie, WHEN are you coming up? Now I'm dying to see the new drum as well as our finally getting together to meet in person. ;) Janet just ordered one of Alphonse's drums, and can hardly wait for it to arrive.
Greg, thanks for the vote of mom-hood, but perhaps not -- I have a hard enough time riding herd on ME... Heh. I will say that Kerri is a good friend (who I miss a lot now that she rarely to never posts...).
zls
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Don't change the subject in the middle of an argument, he.....! I'll come up for a show-and-tell when Janet gets that new drum. She made a great choice. I'm still lamenting that swallowhill cancelled the "session class" last week due to lack of interest. Happily, Blayne Chastain is going to get me started at Fado.
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Och Aye. Right ye are, greg ....and disciples.
Ommmmm.
We can all meditate on karma and our next life and let's not get too upset about this one in case ye'll come back as a slug. The Christian Thought Police have a similar method of people control called heaven and hell....
Geezabrek.
Do you 'Know', for a fact, that Reincarnation, or Heaven and Hell, actually exist?
My belief system is, what I perceive as I experience it, no future, no past. And here we have that chance for 70-odd years. I call that the Real World. I don't know if it will ever become a Perfect World as Homo sapiens 'evolves' but.... *here we are.*
And.... from what I've seen here, the upper echelons of green linnet have acted in a way that they should be shown up in public. We are a gregarious species, where such dynamics happen all the time.... And have done for 1000's of years, since trade began - Ancient Golden Rule of the Mesopotamians (Iraq 9,000 years ago) .....don't deal with dodgy geezers. That's trade for ye.
If I were a Carpenter.... and a client didn't pay up... I'd make sure all the other chippies and plumbers etc., knew about it. I wouldn't go meditating yer man will be a slug next time round. If ye did, all crime would become legitimised. There'd be no actual Law.
That's why we live in a Civil Society.
Go all buddhist on us if ye want, but ye have to pick the bad weeds out of the garden, keep the true lamp lit, be ready for yer maker, should you require more religious analogies.
There's Tons! Tons! more! where that came from.
Danny.
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Yes? What do you do with "what goes around, comes around," Daniel? (That's my own definition of karma, y'see. Hasn't anything to do with reincarnation in my book, nor your station in life and your resignation to it. Might be diff for someone else.) Like your namesake, you never mind sticking the head into the lion's den, do you? *grin*
Charlie, d'you mean the Sunday or Monday session at Fado? I'll show up there if you tell me which you're going to.
zls
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
What goes around comes around? Yeah, it's a good proverb and often does turn out to be the case. But there's no actual *proof* that even that exists as some kinda law of physics in the universe.
Hell. I'm beginning to sound like PP...
Danny.
# Posted on July 11th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Will you lot get back on the subject?!!!!!
Alan
# Posted on July 12th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: The Green Linnet Five
It IS on subject Al.
So what, a little cul de sac of philosophy. 3 point turn and we're back on the highway again.....now that we're on it again...
....what meaty morsel were you going to throw into the pit to get us all salivating again, to get us to rip even more lumps out of the already writhing and moribund GL?
That's now your call, buddy.
Danny.
# Posted on July 12th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The Green Linnet Five
So I'm in the middle of planning the new borders for our new garden in our new house, if anyone will ever kindly buy our old one. The person who planted the current garden apparently either doesn't know anything about gardening, or just bought a bunch of stuff and binged it in for effect, because there's all kinds of things like an iris five inches away from a butterfly bush. Not that that's any more heinous a crime, I suppose, then my husband putting iris in a bed about seven inches deep next to the garage (before we were married, I mean).
Hmmm? Oh, sorry, Alan. *grin* Didn't realize we had to stick severely to one subject. We've always basically treated threads as opportunities for highjackings around these parts, not unlike the conversation around a table at your local. Still, if it pleases you in this instance, I suppose we can, since this thread has largely burnt itself out anyway. *snort*
Otherwise I'd just tell you to take a hike. Heh. (That was supposed to be humor and tongue in cheek, in case anyone failed to notice. *grin*)
zls
# Posted on July 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The Green Linnet Five
Hmmm, let's get this ball trundling again, even if it's at slow speed. On looking through my ITM/folk fiddle cds, only two are from GL, both Martin Hayes as it happened, and I bought them at his concerts. Most of the rest are produced by record companies in Ireland, and Tommy Peoples for instance evidently now produces his own cds
.
Of the non-Irish produced cds, Gina Griffin's "The Lost Fiddler" was produced by a Japanese company, and Dave Brown's "Outside the Square" was recorded, engineered and produced by him - he has his own recording studio in Warminster, England.
Don't forget, on this side of the Pond, and elsewhere, we're looking to you guys in the States to keep the rest of us up to date on developments in this GL debacle!
Trevor
# Posted on July 12th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The Green Linnet Five
I haven't kept updated on this situation, but I do have one small addition: I saw Lunasa just this last weekend, and they asked that everyone with the faulty CD send it back to Green Linnet in exchange for the actual mastered version. The artwork is still wrong; but the band itself has corrected copies for sale.
# Posted on July 18th 2003 by Trinil