Hi everyone
My son is learning classical violin at school for 6 years and ITM fiddle privately at home for 2 years. Both of his teachers have told him that he needs to straighten his left wrist and not support the fiddle with the heel of his hand. Is this a very common fault of technique?, and does anyone know of any excersizes that might help.
Thanks
Neilowen
Let me see if I can bring anything up from the banks of knowledge from when I played violin...10 years ago.
I believe that this is a common technique fault, and the way I always heard it fixed is to tell the student to imagine that a bird is in his left hand, and remember not to crush the poor animal. I need a fiddler to cross-check this though, I could be totally out of line!
I always had this "fault", and my classical teacher tried all sorts of tricks and techniques to exorcise it from me. She never succeeded. I still have this "fault".
Plenty of fiddlers play with a collapsed wrist and manage just fine. But it's not considered "proper technique" and for some people can lead to problems with tendinitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. I've known a few fiddlers who stared out with a collapsed wrist only to have to re-learn to the more conventional position because of wrist problems.
The odd thing is, it actually takes muscle tension to collapse the wrist like that--the muscles on the back of the forearm have to contract. The more standard wrist position is relaxed and "neutral," and the only muscle effort goes into moving the fingers.
One way to learn to keep the wrist loose and open is to crumple up a handkerchief and ball it between the palm and fiddle neck. You can wrap a rubber band around it to help keep it it from unfurling. Then play simple first position tunes till the habit of collapsing goes away.
I was at a workshop taught by Jerry Holland (who plays his fiddle with a collapsed wrist), and he said "don't hold your fiddle like I do" - he thought it held back his playing ability some (this coming from Jerry Holland of all people). On the other hand, there are some Cape Breton-style ornaments that are much easier to do with a collapsed wrist. But none of the young Cape Breton fiddle players hold their fiddles that way anymore.
And I second Will CPT's statement about collapsed wrists leading to more tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome.
FWIW--I have always played with a non-collapsed wrist, am now 55 years old (ye gods), and can't imagine how anybody could play fiddle that way. Even though I have seen Martin Hayes do it, at a level I can't even imagine.
I remember trying it when I was younger and not thinking much of it, either way. But now I couldn't manage it at all. Just too hard on the old bones.
Yeah Marklar I think that the non-collapsed wrist is, like you say, for those two classical idioms. I have my violin, er, fiddle, knowledge from a classical perspective and not an ITM one.
Have him bring his left elbow in (to the right).
It doesn't apply much for traditional music, but is a good idea for some people's hands, especially with short fingers. More critical for this music is to not push real hard with the left thumb. However, who knows if this is the style he's going to be most satisfied with? My be more appropriate to teach him a more universal technique.
"Have him bring his left elbow in (to the right)."
Or perhaps swing the scroll end of the neck a bit to the left. Many fiddlers who do the collapsed wrist also play with the fiddle pointing straight out from their shoulder, like aiming a rifle. Easier on the arm and hand to let the neck go at a 45 degree angle left of center--less tension in the arm and elbow.
Plenty of fiddlers with a collapsed wrist do position shifts and vibrato--that's a myth that you can't do those techniques with a collapsed wrist.
But again, the issue is that bending the wrist back like that takes muscle tension. Better to play from a relaxed, natural, neutral position.
I distinctly recall having this problem with my wrist when I took lessons as a kid . I think it's a good idea to learn "proper" technique . What you do later as you develop as a player may well differ from what you were taught by your teacher. Depending on the player , a more personal technique may be a help or a hindrance to one's playing.
Yeah I did the same thing for ages until my teacher pointed it out and showed me the right way. I definitely noticed a difference and although it was much more awkward to begin with it feel so much better now and playing is esier.
On the other hand look at Martin Hayes, he plays with a "collapsed wrist" and he's a frickin legend.
The only place where your son would really suffer (in my humble, far from expert opinion) is in the classical music when he needs to change from the first position.
Shifting isn't just for classical, it's useful/needed in jazz, gypsy/east european, blues, some slow airs etc etc. The fiddle is so fantastically versatile and there's no telling how someone's musical taste will change over a lifetime. Why paint yourself into a corner at the start.
Thanks for all the advice.
From what you have all said it seems that collapsed wrist is ok for ITM, but may not be so good for other styles, so whilst he is still young it might be worthwhile perservering with "uncollapsing" his wrist. As TomB-R said, it would be a shame if he painted himself into a corner. It will be interesting to see what my son says about Martin Hayes's LH position as we listen to a lot of his recordings and we are seeing him in concert at Sidmouth in Two weeks from now.
Cheers
Neil
"Plenty of fiddlers with a collapsed wrist do position shifts and vibrato--that's a myth that you can't do those techniques with a collapsed wrist."
You can do them if you straighten your wrist temporarily, which I suspect is what those fiddlers do. You can't play in 7th position with the heel of your palm on the neck, and you can't do the kind of wrist-pivoting vibrato classical players do without taking the heel of your palm away from the neck to at least some degree.
Probably the worst thing about playing with a collapsed wrist, though, is that it comes from wanting to support the fiddle with the left hand. The jaw should be supporting the fiddle; the left hand has enough to do.
You'll hurt yourself. Plain and simple. Yes, you can play fiddle any way you 'can' but there are reasons certain techniques have come into play over the history of the instrument. I cringe when I see people with scrunched wrists, or hunched over with the scroll pointing towards the ground. I literally get sympathy pains, you poor people. Ouch!
And don't be fooled by the posture, those guys have a very highly evolved and sophisticated style of playing.
There are lots of different ways to get the job done; what's right for one person may not be right for another. You just have to find a way that is practical and comfortable for you.
But still, I see no advantage to a collapsed wrist, and lots of reasons not to do it.
collapsing the wrist is not really acceptable in any form of music, even irish trad. Collapsing the wrist draws the third and fourth fingers back, so that these fingers are often flat. the forearm and wrist should be one straight line, this relaxes the muscles in the forearm and means the fingers (generaly) fall into the correct position. People are often critizised for collapsed wrists in the fleadh, not that this means much, but it does show that the straighter position of the wrist has been accepted into trad. music. For practising this possition, many people put a rolled up pair of socks between the neck of the fiddle and the wrist of the pupil. It is important for beginers to develop a good technique early to let their playing develop, and as John Burke says: practise makes perminance not perfect!
I only discovered recently that when my son was being taught the violin at school, his teacher countered any tendancy towards a collapsed wrist by blue tacking a drawing pin to the appropriate spot on the fiddle. Sadistic but effective
I had a student buy an inexpensive wrist brace (like for carpal tunnel) to help train her wrist to be straight. She actually had the opposite problem- she bent her wrist away from the neck too far!
My teacher Martin Murray sorted me out by getting me to hold the fiddle with both hands out from my body (as if i was handing it to someone). If you do that, your left wrist is naturally straight, then all I needed to do was bring the fiddle up to my soulder and keep my wrist in that position.
It really helped me because once I had the correct position I was ok.
Course, it comes naturally now.
I put a double-edged razor blade between my hand and the fiddle.
Only kidding.
In fact, I learned with an un-collapsed wrist, and I always had difficulty playing cuts with my fourth finger. The finger would lock up, so I couldn't get a smooth, circular motion over the string.
When I collapse the wrist, the finger works perfectly. So I'm trying to train my hand to play in a semi-collapsed position, just occasionally touching the neck of the fiddle.
collapsed wrist
collapsed wrist
Hi everyone
My son is learning classical violin at school for 6 years and ITM fiddle privately at home for 2 years. Both of his teachers have told him that he needs to straighten his left wrist and not support the fiddle with the heel of his hand. Is this a very common fault of technique?, and does anyone know of any excersizes that might help.
Thanks
Neilowen
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by neilowen
Re: collapsed wrist
Let me see if I can bring anything up from the banks of knowledge from when I played violin...10 years ago.
I believe that this is a common technique fault, and the way I always heard it fixed is to tell the student to imagine that a bird is in his left hand, and remember not to crush the poor animal. I need a fiddler to cross-check this though, I could be totally out of line!
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by samiam590
Re: collapsed wrist
I always had this "fault", and my classical teacher tried all sorts of tricks and techniques to exorcise it from me. She never succeeded. I still have this "fault".
Martin Hayes also has this "fault".
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: collapsed wrist
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Whiddler
Re: collapsed wrist
The main reason you aren't supposed to hold your wrist that way in playing classical violin is because it gets in the way of shifting and vibrato.
For fiddling, it doesn't matter that much.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: collapsed wrist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtH4aGb04Og
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by ...
Re: collapsed wrist
Plenty of fiddlers play with a collapsed wrist and manage just fine. But it's not considered "proper technique" and for some people can lead to problems with tendinitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. I've known a few fiddlers who stared out with a collapsed wrist only to have to re-learn to the more conventional position because of wrist problems.
The odd thing is, it actually takes muscle tension to collapse the wrist like that--the muscles on the back of the forearm have to contract. The more standard wrist position is relaxed and "neutral," and the only muscle effort goes into moving the fingers.
One way to learn to keep the wrist loose and open is to crumple up a handkerchief and ball it between the palm and fiddle neck. You can wrap a rubber band around it to help keep it it from unfurling. Then play simple first position tunes till the habit of collapsing goes away.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: collapsed wrist
I was at a workshop taught by Jerry Holland (who plays his fiddle with a collapsed wrist), and he said "don't hold your fiddle like I do" - he thought it held back his playing ability some (this coming from Jerry Holland of all people). On the other hand, there are some Cape Breton-style ornaments that are much easier to do with a collapsed wrist. But none of the young Cape Breton fiddle players hold their fiddles that way anymore.
And I second Will CPT's statement about collapsed wrists leading to more tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: collapsed wrist
FWIW--I have always played with a non-collapsed wrist, am now 55 years old (ye gods), and can't imagine how anybody could play fiddle that way. Even though I have seen Martin Hayes do it, at a level I can't even imagine.
I remember trying it when I was younger and not thinking much of it, either way. But now I couldn't manage it at all. Just too hard on the old bones.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by John Galt
Re: collapsed wrist
(Like I said--for what it's worth. If you can play like Liz Carroll or Martin Hayes, I'm not going to argue the point.)
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by John Galt
Re: collapsed wrist
Yeah Marklar I think that the non-collapsed wrist is, like you say, for those two classical idioms. I have my violin, er, fiddle, knowledge from a classical perspective and not an ITM one.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by samiam590
Re: collapsed wrist
Have him bring his left elbow in (to the right).
It doesn't apply much for traditional music, but is a good idea for some people's hands, especially with short fingers. More critical for this music is to not push real hard with the left thumb. However, who knows if this is the style he's going to be most satisfied with? My be more appropriate to teach him a more universal technique.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by reenactor
Re: collapsed wrist
"Have him bring his left elbow in (to the right)."
Or perhaps swing the scroll end of the neck a bit to the left. Many fiddlers who do the collapsed wrist also play with the fiddle pointing straight out from their shoulder, like aiming a rifle. Easier on the arm and hand to let the neck go at a 45 degree angle left of center--less tension in the arm and elbow.
Plenty of fiddlers with a collapsed wrist do position shifts and vibrato--that's a myth that you can't do those techniques with a collapsed wrist.
But again, the issue is that bending the wrist back like that takes muscle tension. Better to play from a relaxed, natural, neutral position.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: collapsed wrist
I distinctly recall having this problem with my wrist when I took lessons as a kid . I think it's a good idea to learn "proper" technique . What you do later as you develop as a player may well differ from what you were taught by your teacher. Depending on the player , a more personal technique may be a help or a hindrance to one's playing.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by leoj
Re: collapsed wrist
Yeah I did the same thing for ages until my teacher pointed it out and showed me the right way. I definitely noticed a difference and although it was much more awkward to begin with it feel so much better now and playing is esier.
On the other hand look at Martin Hayes, he plays with a "collapsed wrist" and he's a frickin legend.
The only place where your son would really suffer (in my humble, far from expert opinion) is in the classical music when he needs to change from the first position.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by session savage
Re: collapsed wrist
Shifting isn't just for classical, it's useful/needed in jazz, gypsy/east european, blues, some slow airs etc etc. The fiddle is so fantastically versatile and there's no telling how someone's musical taste will change over a lifetime. Why paint yourself into a corner at the start.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by TomB-R
Re: collapsed wrist
Thanks for all the advice.
From what you have all said it seems that collapsed wrist is ok for ITM, but may not be so good for other styles, so whilst he is still young it might be worthwhile perservering with "uncollapsing" his wrist. As TomB-R said, it would be a shame if he painted himself into a corner. It will be interesting to see what my son says about Martin Hayes's LH position as we listen to a lot of his recordings and we are seeing him in concert at Sidmouth in Two weeks from now.
Cheers
Neil
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by neilowen
Re: collapsed wrist
"Plenty of fiddlers with a collapsed wrist do position shifts and vibrato--that's a myth that you can't do those techniques with a collapsed wrist."
You can do them if you straighten your wrist temporarily, which I suspect is what those fiddlers do. You can't play in 7th position with the heel of your palm on the neck, and you can't do the kind of wrist-pivoting vibrato classical players do without taking the heel of your palm away from the neck to at least some degree.
Probably the worst thing about playing with a collapsed wrist, though, is that it comes from wanting to support the fiddle with the left hand. The jaw should be supporting the fiddle; the left hand has enough to do.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: collapsed wrist
You'll hurt yourself. Plain and simple. Yes, you can play fiddle any way you 'can' but there are reasons certain techniques have come into play over the history of the instrument. I cringe when I see people with scrunched wrists, or hunched over with the scroll pointing towards the ground. I literally get sympathy pains, you poor people. Ouch!
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: collapsed wrist
Well, this is probably the most comfortable way to play if you're limber enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGYL-aH6Azg
And don't be fooled by the posture, those guys have a very highly evolved and sophisticated style of playing.
There are lots of different ways to get the job done; what's right for one person may not be right for another. You just have to find a way that is practical and comfortable for you.
But still, I see no advantage to a collapsed wrist, and lots of reasons not to do it.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: collapsed wrist
Come on now, you "cringe" when yoou see Liz Carrol play. Best just listen then ... or close youre eyes
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by ...
Re: collapsed wrist
I do, but the poor girl! I have to stretch my forearms out just watching her!
Ah, to be young.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: collapsed wrist
Or not. To be limber?
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: collapsed wrist
I don't know, whatever works for you. I just know what makes me ache.
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: collapsed wrist
Ow! Makes me want to sit up straight! I can literally feel the twinge in the small of my back!
http://www.mosquitonet.com/~gcn/lizcarroll.jpg
You results may vary! Of course she's wonderful, and many people play beautifully no matter the technique.
(All this nonsense brought to you by the Ergonomic Fiddle Council.)
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: collapsed wrist
collapsing the wrist is not really acceptable in any form of music, even irish trad. Collapsing the wrist draws the third and fourth fingers back, so that these fingers are often flat. the forearm and wrist should be one straight line, this relaxes the muscles in the forearm and means the fingers (generaly) fall into the correct position. People are often critizised for collapsed wrists in the fleadh, not that this means much, but it does show that the straighter position of the wrist has been accepted into trad. music. For practising this possition, many people put a rolled up pair of socks between the neck of the fiddle and the wrist of the pupil. It is important for beginers to develop a good technique early to let their playing develop, and as John Burke says: practise makes perminance not perfect!
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by irishfiddlefanatic
Re: collapsed wrist
The references here to Martin Hayes and Liz Carroll only go to show that some players sound great in spite of bad habits.
When you're learning, why make it harder than it needs to be?
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: collapsed wrist
I only discovered recently that when my son was being taught the violin at school, his teacher countered any tendancy towards a collapsed wrist by blue tacking a drawing pin to the appropriate spot on the fiddle. Sadistic but effective
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by deeor
Re: collapsed wrist
Funny, I've always thought violin teachers were masochists by nature....
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: collapsed wrist
I had a student buy an inexpensive wrist brace (like for carpal tunnel) to help train her wrist to be straight. She actually had the opposite problem- she bent her wrist away from the neck too far!
# Posted on July 22nd 2008 by azfiddle
Re: collapsed wrist
My teacher Martin Murray sorted me out by getting me to hold the fiddle with both hands out from my body (as if i was handing it to someone). If you do that, your left wrist is naturally straight, then all I needed to do was bring the fiddle up to my soulder and keep my wrist in that position.
It really helped me because once I had the correct position I was ok.
Course, it comes naturally now.
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by session savage
Re: collapsed wrist
I put a double-edged razor blade between my hand and the fiddle.
Only kidding.
In fact, I learned with an un-collapsed wrist, and I always had difficulty playing cuts with my fourth finger. The finger would lock up, so I couldn't get a smooth, circular motion over the string.
When I collapse the wrist, the finger works perfectly. So I'm trying to train my hand to play in a semi-collapsed position, just occasionally touching the neck of the fiddle.
Jim
# Posted on July 23rd 2008 by Jmbu
Re: collapsed wrist
Kato Havas (classical violinist) used to advocate the"giving hand" in her workshops in Dorset many years ago. It certainly worked for her.
# Posted on July 28th 2008 by duffgen
Re: collapsed wrist
mabye holding his wrist out straight for a llittle bit each day will make his wrist switch.
# Posted on July 30th 2008 by harpomaniac
Re: collapsed wrist
lol
jk
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by harpomaniac