I've not heard it being done at any session I go to but I was sort of wondering if anybody plays set dance tunes in 'sets' e.g. The Blackbird followed by A N Other set dance.
My first thought is it would be unusual to marry up a pair of set dance tunes but then again why not? Dunno...any thoughts?
Just to clarify, you do mean "set dance" tunes as in "The Blackbird", "The Ace And Deuce Of Pipering", and other tunes designated as "set dances" in O'Neill, rather than set of tunes for accompanying set dancing? Such sets of tunes for set dancing figures will be found in any ceili band's tune list.
Martin Byrnes, the Co.Galway fiddler who played and recorded in London with Reg Hall, plays The Blackbird followed by Rodney's Glory on his LP; so yes, it has been known.
Sorry, wasn't clear enough; just so - Garden of Daisies, Job of Journeywork, Princess Royal etc. Just a thought I had and I started to mull it around in my head, maybe I ought to stick to what I know.
While it has happened in recordings, generally, my experience, they tend to be played and appreciated on their own. That said, I've been party to playing a 'set', say three in a row, but one at a time. Someone started a set dance, we joined in to the end. Then someone else started another. But, as said, in a live situation, I've generally experienced them one at a time, unless it was something copied off a commercial recording, which is not uncommon...
If I was playing a set dance for a dancer then I would play 'the tune' same as you would for a solo Morris jig, same as you would for Kerry or Clare sets you would play polka/slide /hornpipe as appropriate.
In a session though would it be too much like showboating to play more than one set dance tune? I'm thinking along the lines of the way some reels are always played together, why not Ace and Deuce and Garden of Daisies or some other combination that suits your fancy? Does anyone have any experiences of doing this or heard it done anywhere apart from the Mairtin Byrnes recording?
It think it is in part the size of set dances, and their unusual measure counts, with many of them, as well as that not a lot of folks, unfortunately, play them. So, they seem to mostly come singly, if speaking from a context of the past. The other interest in them is the many different time signatures, just about everything going. Trying to mix things not classically AABB and 32 bars built of 4 x 8, that AABB usual, is likely, as said, the reason why the mostly tend to stand on their own, aside from commercial recordings... Though, most commercial recordings I am familiar with, if of the age of LPs and cassettes, mostly also featured them in this light ~ one at a time...if memory serves me right... I'll have to go scrounge and see what I come up with in that regard. Musician to musician, most of those I did share this music with only played them on their lonesome, not in sets. Of course, that was true of just about anything, including playing polkas or other tunes for dances, especially with the sets of quadrilles and general village dances last century... That practice still persists with some official ceili dances...
Also, making a 'decent' set from the limited number of 'set dances', the definition intended here, is no easy lark... Most conglomerations would feel clumsy I suspect, even 4/4 to 4/4...
'Bout what I thought, c, pity though they are on the whole marvellous tunes. Why so few of them I wonder but then again that's another question; I suppose loss of tradition might account for it, changes in fashion? Ah well.
There are those that get played to death, but some musicians' judgement, like "King of the Fairies". I still enjoy having fun with them, and at a relaxed pace...
They were 'set' dances, a set choreography of steps to a give tune, not unlike the early country dance choreographies, a specific dance and tune combination, like "Hole in the Wall" or "In the Fields of Frost and Snow", as two examples from that repertoire...
And of course from the English trad Walpole Cottage - 50 bars! Shakes head in wonderment. (Is that a proper word?) I assume that there must be similar Scottish examples.
Some information from a mutual ~ Ben Hall's two bits via recent email, with a little editing, valued comment:
Thought I'd pass on my thoughts ~ Learnt form my old mate Peter Kennedy - "Job of Journeywork" into "The Blackbird". It goes a treat. He even had dance steps that led from one to the other. There are others, and Peter Kennedy certainly had at least two, and I think more, combinations of set dances arranged in 'sets' as it were. It has definitely been done at various times but, clearly, there's a limit to what you can do. All of the varous 'set dance' tunes tend to be so individual.
I have always played The Blackbird followed by the Job of Journeywork as a set. Another set I play is The Humours of Bandon followed by The Three Sea Captains.
Glad to hear that Martin Byrnes plays "the blackbird" into "rodney's Glory" as I like doing this in the house playing either tune first . Now I find out I have better taste that I would have thought Haven't played these tunes togher in a session though.
I also like playing "the blackbird" set dance into the hornpipe setting of the tune & have done this at sessions when I know some of the other people present know both.
The 'fork' having mentioned it, I remember doing a set that included several different takes/tunes on the name 'The Blackbird', including set dances... I'll have to see if I can remember exactly what went with what and in what order... I also have some vague memory of playing "The Three Sea Captains" with another tune, as a pair of set dance tunes... But, in both cases, it would have been under the direction of someone else.
I favour playing them singly, my personal preference, but that too, undoubtedly, is from the influence of others. It's that thing we call 'tradition', which is variable and mutable, at least to some extent. There will always be folks trying to pin it down and confine its definition...
I just had a notion enter in my brain, on subject, that while I've learned 'set dances', this tune mix, from all kinds of sources, I have it in mind, my brow furrowing, that mostly I've learned or heard them from pipers...or that holds a stronger image in my mind than other instruments. I have particularly loved them played on flat sets. That may be why they stand out, that when I've heard set dances on a flat set, it is also mostly a solo performance, the pipes on their own or with limited additional accompaniment, and set dances also on their lonesome. As I remember I'm smiling ~ I love it that way, beautiful...
From Ben's contribution, I wonder if the playing and dancing of these in sets, in a context of the past, and Peter Kennedy's collecting, wasn't to do with exhibition dance? That would put it in a similar situation with commercial recordings ~ producing something for a more public audience, the punters, whether a performance at a fair or the production, promotion and selling of recordings. There is something definitely exhibitionist about stringing set dance tunes and steps together in a set. From a dancer's point of view, I can see the excitement that would create for an audience, a performance, but the idea of clobbering together two very different set of steps and set dance tunes still feels odd, clumsy... Anything more than two would seem excessive, in my mind... That said, with 'The Blackbird', not my doing by I participated, it was 'several', but not with stepping...
Maybe, then, that's why I get the sensation of 'showboating' when playing more than one at a time...again, if, as you suspect it was to do with exhibition dancing i.e. a solo dancer it is most likely that there would only the one musician to play for him this would have an influence on the way the tune was played as dancer and musician would have to 'rehearse' or know each other's style well leading to idiosyncratic renditions of tune and dance thereby limiting number the number of tunes; the most likely musicians to preserve these tunes? why pipers - of course! I found myself nodding in agreement with you about who you had heard playing set dance tunes; a case of QED?
Anyway, enough of this I think; lets leave well enough alone with one at a time in a session eh? Well enough on recordings to have more than one but that's a different kettle...
Good of you to put up Ben's contribution as it did set me thinking (must go and have a lie down now), hope we'll be hearing from him soon.
Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Playing set dance tunes one after another.
I've not heard it being done at any session I go to but I was sort of wondering if anybody plays set dance tunes in 'sets' e.g. The Blackbird followed by A N Other set dance.
My first thought is it would be unusual to marry up a pair of set dance tunes but then again why not? Dunno...any thoughts?
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Just to clarify, you do mean "set dance" tunes as in "The Blackbird", "The Ace And Deuce Of Pipering", and other tunes designated as "set dances" in O'Neill, rather than set of tunes for accompanying set dancing? Such sets of tunes for set dancing figures will be found in any ceili band's tune list.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Martin Byrnes, the Co.Galway fiddler who played and recorded in London with Reg Hall, plays The Blackbird followed by Rodney's Glory on his LP; so yes, it has been known.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Sorry, wasn't clear enough; just so - Garden of Daisies, Job of Journeywork, Princess Royal etc. Just a thought I had and I started to mull it around in my head, maybe I ought to stick to what I know.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Blimey nicholas, I'd be in rare company there then!
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
lazyhound, ceili band,s tune lists are no different to sets of
tunes played at sessions,
PS a Set Dance is a dance danced by a solo dancer.
Set Dancing is performed by a group of four or more dancers.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by gooseinthenettles
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
While it has happened in recordings, generally, my experience, they tend to be played and appreciated on their own. That said, I've been party to playing a 'set', say three in a row, but one at a time. Someone started a set dance, we joined in to the end. Then someone else started another. But, as said, in a live situation, I've generally experienced them one at a time, unless it was something copied off a commercial recording, which is not uncommon...
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
If I was playing a set dance for a dancer then I would play 'the tune' same as you would for a solo Morris jig, same as you would for Kerry or Clare sets you would play polka/slide /hornpipe as appropriate.
In a session though would it be too much like showboating to play more than one set dance tune? I'm thinking along the lines of the way some reels are always played together, why not Ace and Deuce and Garden of Daisies or some other combination that suits your fancy? Does anyone have any experiences of doing this or heard it done anywhere apart from the Mairtin Byrnes recording?
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
G'morning 'c' - bit of a cross post there.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Hi John, hope life is being good to you...
It think it is in part the size of set dances, and their unusual measure counts, with many of them, as well as that not a lot of folks, unfortunately, play them. So, they seem to mostly come singly, if speaking from a context of the past. The other interest in them is the many different time signatures, just about everything going. Trying to mix things not classically AABB and 32 bars built of 4 x 8, that AABB usual, is likely, as said, the reason why the mostly tend to stand on their own, aside from commercial recordings... Though, most commercial recordings I am familiar with, if of the age of LPs and cassettes, mostly also featured them in this light ~ one at a time...if memory serves me right... I'll have to go scrounge and see what I come up with in that regard. Musician to musician, most of those I did share this music with only played them on their lonesome, not in sets. Of course, that was true of just about anything, including playing polkas or other tunes for dances, especially with the sets of quadrilles and general village dances last century... That practice still persists with some official ceili dances...
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Also, making a 'decent' set from the limited number of 'set dances', the definition intended here, is no easy lark... Most conglomerations would feel clumsy I suspect, even 4/4 to 4/4...
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
'Bout what I thought, c, pity though they are on the whole marvellous tunes. Why so few of them I wonder but then again that's another question; I suppose loss of tradition might account for it, changes in fashion? Ah well.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
And I suspect tempo too, sadly...
There are those that get played to death, but some musicians' judgement, like "King of the Fairies". I still enjoy having fun with them, and at a relaxed pace...
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ceolachan
'by some' ~ not 'but'....
They were 'set' dances, a set choreography of steps to a give tune, not unlike the early country dance choreographies, a specific dance and tune combination, like "Hole in the Wall" or "In the Fields of Frost and Snow", as two examples from that repertoire...
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
And of course from the English trad Walpole Cottage - 50 bars! Shakes head in wonderment. (Is that a proper word?) I assume that there must be similar Scottish examples.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Some information from a mutual ~ Ben Hall's two bits via recent email, with a little editing, valued comment:
)
Thought I'd pass on my thoughts ~ Learnt form my old mate Peter Kennedy - "Job of Journeywork" into "The Blackbird". It goes a treat. He even had dance steps that led from one to the other. There are others, and Peter Kennedy certainly had at least two, and I think more, combinations of set dances arranged in 'sets' as it were. It has definitely been done at various times but, clearly, there's a limit to what you can do. All of the varous 'set dance' tunes tend to be so individual.
Anyway, nice topic. ~ Ben ( on hiatus
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by benhall.1
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/13960
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
I have always played The Blackbird followed by the Job of Journeywork as a set. Another set I play is The Humours of Bandon followed by The Three Sea Captains.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Blackbird/Job of Journeywork, certainly.
Some eejits might put The Ace and Deuce of Pipering and King of the Fairies together.
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Glad to hear that Martin Byrnes plays "the blackbird" into "rodney's Glory" as I like doing this in the house playing either tune first . Now I find out I have better taste that I would have thought
Haven't played these tunes togher in a session though.
I also like playing "the blackbird" set dance into the hornpipe setting of the tune & have done this at sessions when I know some of the other people present know both.
- Chris
# Posted on June 20th 2008 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
The 'fork' having mentioned it, I remember doing a set that included several different takes/tunes on the name 'The Blackbird', including set dances... I'll have to see if I can remember exactly what went with what and in what order... I also have some vague memory of playing "The Three Sea Captains" with another tune, as a pair of set dance tunes... But, in both cases, it would have been under the direction of someone else.
I favour playing them singly, my personal preference, but that too, undoubtedly, is from the influence of others. It's that thing we call 'tradition', which is variable and mutable, at least to some extent. There will always be folks trying to pin it down and confine its definition...
I just had a notion enter in my brain, on subject, that while I've learned 'set dances', this tune mix, from all kinds of sources, I have it in mind, my brow furrowing, that mostly I've learned or heard them from pipers...or that holds a stronger image in my mind than other instruments. I have particularly loved them played on flat sets. That may be why they stand out, that when I've heard set dances on a flat set, it is also mostly a solo performance, the pipes on their own or with limited additional accompaniment, and set dances also on their lonesome. As I remember I'm smiling ~ I love it that way, beautiful...
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
From Ben's contribution, I wonder if the playing and dancing of these in sets, in a context of the past, and Peter Kennedy's collecting, wasn't to do with exhibition dance? That would put it in a similar situation with commercial recordings ~ producing something for a more public audience, the punters, whether a performance at a fair or the production, promotion and selling of recordings. There is something definitely exhibitionist about stringing set dance tunes and steps together in a set. From a dancer's point of view, I can see the excitement that would create for an audience, a performance, but the idea of clobbering together two very different set of steps and set dance tunes still feels odd, clumsy...
Anything more than two would seem excessive, in my mind... That said, with 'The Blackbird', not my doing by I participated, it was 'several', but not with stepping...
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
Maybe, then, that's why I get the sensation of 'showboating' when playing more than one at a time...again, if, as you suspect it was to do with exhibition dancing i.e. a solo dancer it is most likely that there would only the one musician to play for him this would have an influence on the way the tune was played as dancer and musician would have to 'rehearse' or know each other's style well leading to idiosyncratic renditions of tune and dance thereby limiting number the number of tunes; the most likely musicians to preserve these tunes? why pipers - of course! I found myself nodding in agreement with you about who you had heard playing set dance tunes; a case of QED?
Anyway, enough of this I think; lets leave well enough alone with one at a time in a session eh? Well enough on recordings to have more than one but that's a different kettle...
Good of you to put up Ben's contribution as it did set me thinking (must go and have a lie down now), hope we'll be hearing from him soon.
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
'fork, sorry didn't want to appear to have ignored you; nice idea to link with the hornpipe, I must try it sometime soon.
Cheers
# Posted on June 21st 2008 by john knoss
Re: Playing set dance tunes one after another.
'Set Dances' ~ they actually had 'set' steps, a different set of steps, choreography, for a given tune...
# Posted on June 22nd 2008 by ceolachan