I am Curious about the pro's and con's of angeling the bow. The classical approach , if I am not mistaken,on the fiddle, is to slant the bow away from the Bridge. Same with the cello, but the difference is that with the Cello that put the force of gravity and the weight of the bow directly above the Hair.
Im also under the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that the classical hold of the Violin used to incline the fiddle up from the shoulder, so that when moving up in the positions Gravity was 'with' this shift. This hold would also mean that the weight of the stick is above the Hair.
Fiddlers on the other hand often slant the fiddle down so doesn't this mean there is little weight of the stick behind the Hair?
According to this logic, using the weight of the stick and gravity the bow would ideally be full on when the fiddle is held level, slanting towards the bridge when sloping down and slanting away from the bridge when sloping up from the shoulder.
When I was taught Cello this[ gravity and stick weight] was the rational behind the approach .... What is the rational behind the 'classical approach ' for the violin ? if there is such a thing[ which there isn't really eh?]
Any chance of a sensible discussion or will this also degenerate into petty bickering? I do hope not.
Erm, bearing in mind your sensible question and request to avoid bickering, I would respectfully, but wholeheartedly, disagree with llig's statement. Bowing makes a huge difference, and is evident in many prolific players. A fine number of people firmly routed in the tradition, and widely acknowledged as key exponents on the fiddle, have taken influence from classical technique. Immediate example that springs to mind in Sean Keane. If you search for him on youtube you'll find clips of his playing.
What I think llig meant to say, and again I put this forward respectfully, is that there is no right or wrong way for using the bow in trad, and your choices are as valid as anyones. The music has a wide variety of different bowing techniques. If you find it on youtube, there was a very interesting clip of Julia Clifford playing on Come West Along the Road recently. Her bowing is fascinating as it almost doesn't correlate to the sound she generates from the instrument. Completely 'wrong' in classical terms of technique, but produced absolutely beautiful music.
Trad players don't tend to shift out of first position that much, some styles more than others, so there is one possible reason for the change in angle of the instrument. There will be elements of your classical technique you won't need for trad - bobby casey couldn't play Ysaye, but that didn't stop him from being one of the greatest musicians of his time.
I applogise David, you are right. What I meant was, that there is no right or wrong way for holding the bow in trad, and your choices are as valid as anyones. Specifically, the slant of the bow on the strings is not important. Of course bowing in general matters, but to get hung up on a cosmetic detail like this instead of just playing tunes with what ever hold suits you is a waste of time and effort.
Well firstly, I am just curious.
With the cello, and double bass, the weight of the bow is ,perhaps, more important in attaining your sound than the fiddle? Which is why the bow is held at that a slant, obviously the angle is more obtuse[right word?] , if you play the fiddle in cello/arabian position the weight of the stick if the bow was slanted away from the bridgeit can a weak tone Perhaps a cellist /Dbl bass player might be able to shed more light on the matter?
Oh never mind. I really just wanted to let people know about a new YouTube clip worth checking out. I actually think that it's a non-issue too, for fiddling.
Im curious as to 'why' why do classical folk hold it like this, why do cellists etc, is it worth training the alternative grips? what are the benefits and cons....
Nice link Mickray, I love checking out all the wonderfull stuff available. thanks for that.
llig did you really need to post that first link that fixed grin .....
We all play the same instrument. If you dont want to discuss it the solution is obvious.
. The subject is bow holds not why I wish to discuss bow holds or why I ask the questions . The different positions the violin/fiddle is held in interest me, on the knee, on the chest , upside down sat in the lotus position. Its really not up to you what discussions are posted is it? i really don't even want to discuss anything much with you unless you are prepared to be civil and keep to the subject in hand. You appear to follow me round trying to cause trouble. I am not interested.
No. thats merely an opinion.
If you could say why, perhaps demonstrate the different approaches, the benefits of each possibility etc that would be much more relevant than an opinion stated as though it were a fact. Its not a fact. Maybe for you it doesnt matter but to extrapolate from that that for everyone playing trad it doesnt matter is ,well, ......need I say more?
Demonstrates that all the options are available.... sorry is that your contribution? I know the options are there. it doesnt take a Phd to figure that out. My question is what are the benefits to the different choices . why do 'you' use the approach you have, why do classical musicians?, why dont you use the other choices? do you use all three approaches and all the positions in between? what effect does the weight of the bow have on the tone in the different choices. ? etc etc etc. a discussion.
Jig,
You asked about the double bass bow- I hold mine at a 90 degree angle from the strings; that is, I don't slant it towards nor away from the bridge (consciously, that is.) But I won't be shlepping my bass to any sessions.
Interesting, very interesting. What are your thoughts on the different positions? did you experiment with them ? were you taught a particular way? Is there a consensus amongst players. or controversy?
sorry lots of questions.
Jig, You are wasting your time considering it. Go and practice playing your fiddle with what ever slant you like, it doesn't make any difference. Go and practice something that does make a difference.
It's like asking a golfer what underwear helps his putting. It's just not relevant. Sure he wears underwear, but it's just not relevant
Thats it? you start talking about underwear? havent 'you' anything better to do? Of course it makes a difference , what are the quantifiable factors in this difference. All the fine details make a difference. Every little thing. As you say,; the devil is in the detail.
I was taught to angle the bow. But it doesn't always work that way because of the way you have to move your wrist as you draw the bow up and down, so I find that the angle changes all the time. The real thing to shoot for is good contact with the string, a nice clean, smooth vibration. Well, maybe sometimes a scratchy vibration too, but you have to be able to get a good clean tone when you want it. Maybe I'll manage that in a few more years...
Angle it which way? why did they teach you that? was it the way they were taught? Im just curious, we all do things for different reasons. Many of us dont even consider the reasons we do something. Im just raising a subject for conversation, why do we do what we do? Why do classically taught players do it in a certain way? is there consensus or controversy in the classical world, which ,like it or not, has had quite a major effect on the trad world. Why do trad fiddlers do it the way they do? was it classical lessons? unconscious? Why?
I don't experiment with bow angles consciously, I just try for good tone. And fluid motion. And clean string crossings. And good rhythm. And crisp ornaments (a particularly hard thing, for me). And variety in bow speed, pressure, etc. in ways that I hope will do the tune justice. I listen to how it all sounds, and try to make it all work better.
Although I don't think my playing is nearly as good an example as Kevin Burke's or James Kelly's--not by several light-years--so it's kind of a moot point.
Angle it with the stick away from the bridge. I don't know the particular reason I was taught to do it that way. I find I get a better tone doing it like that, but there a lot more important things involved with tone, mostly involving the wrist. It's all very complex and i expect I'll be tweaking it forever.
It doesn't have a thing to do with the weight of the bow or how you tilt the fiddle. Classical players are taught to tilt the bow because it tends to give a cleaner tone than having all the hairs on the string.
The importance of tone in classical playing is not the same as the importance of tone in fiddling. A classical player will avoid the scratchy, harsh sound that having all the hairs on the string can promote, while a fiddler might desire that sound.
And jig, it's very obvious that you are just starting discussions that you think will be controversial (classical vs. trad) in the hopes of picking fights. I don't know why you keep doing this but it's getting old.
And please don't pretend that you're just trying to have a friendly discussion; I know that you are circling like a vulture waiting for an opportunity to stir some sh*t. And I also know that you aren't going to accept any answer at all, you'll just keep on posting over and over until either someone loses patience and gives you the fight that you're looking for, or people just stop posting and ignore you.
Obvious? You are completely mistaken. Completely. Wrong, I dont know why you wish to suggest such a thing. If you wish to become abusive and unpleasant when you have been politely asked to refrain from such behavior perhaps you might find another discussion or board? We are having a friendly discussion if you dont wish to be involved leave. if you do, please try to remain civil. If you read the discussion I ask about the angle, tilting too and away from the bridge. specifically pertaining to bow weight and angle of elevation of the fiddle. Would you change the angle of the bow if you were to change the angle of the fiddle?
of
You say the tone is not of the same importance for trad fiddling, but that is an opinion, not a fact. Trad fiddling is an intensely personal thing, my views, clearly, are different from yours. Tone is of the utmost importance to me. I am a trad fiddler. How can you make such a generalization? it is at best ill informed . We all have a right to play as we choose. to search and aspire to our own particular aims, A Blanket statement like that does no justice to our art.
Exactly as predicted. You claim to want a civil discussion but I'm "ill informed" and should find another discussion board. Is it abusive to point out the pattern that you have been demonstrating over and over on this board?
Anyway, I'm not taking the bait any more than I already have, I'm done posting on this thread.
Hang on, to me tone is of the utmost importance. So your point is clearly wrong. There is room for all.
Screetch you said I was a vulture waitng to stir sh*t . That is insulting and mistaken. I simply said if you wished to talk to anyone like that , then this discussion is not the place. There was a polite request at the begining to refrain from bickering. Jeremy asks us to remain civil. Is that comment in any way civil? I really did hope that we could avoid this.
The discussion is about the angle of the bow, why we do what we do. Is that not a simple enough remit? either you have something to contribute or not. If you do , please keep it on track. digressions into meta discussions on the motive of the posters are irrelevant and unwelcome.
I play with my bow angled towards the bridge, as I was taught, however I have never experimented with other possibilities. Perhaps it would be a good move.
It doesn't really matter - we're discussing the arrangement of the deck-chairs . There are these different schools of thought - hairs flat on the string, angled away from the bridge, and even angled towards the bridge. As far as folk music is concerned I don't think it makes a scrap of difference, although some classical players will swear by the bow being angled away from the bridge, and others will say that that is the way of the devil. It depends on how you've been taught, hopefully by someone who teaches good tone production and control, because the end results are much the same. In fairness to the classical camp. though, there is the argument that tilting the bow enables subtle changes in tone colour - perhaps required by a composer - but even a flat-on-the-string player can always make that angle adjustment if needed. Such details are unlikely to be of much concern to us here.
As a cellist I usually have the hairs flat on the string, although my desk partner in the orchestra habitually angles his away from the bridge. For the cellist, having the hairs flat on the string has a lot to do with controlling the vibration of those comparatively heavy, high tension strings.
As a fiddle player I also have the hairs flat on the string, and this is largely, I think, a consequence of my bow hold. I don't hold the bow the with the tips of the fingers, but with the stick lying between the first and second joints (counting from the tips) of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers. The distal portions of those fingers are relaxed and don't do anything - I just make sure they don't touch the bow hairs. The back of the bow hand is flat and in alignment with the back of the forearm - the wrist isn't lifted. The 4th finger (pinky) is curved and rests lightly on the end of the frog, ready to apply balancing pressure when bowing down near the frog. Going further up the arm, the upper arm hangs relaxed in a more or less vertical configuration from the shoulder, and close to the body most of the time.. The hanging weight of the arm therefore helps to apply pressure to the bow as required. This is quite unlike the style where the arm tends to be held high with a curved wrist, and in which the shoulder muscles would, I imagine, therefore have to work harder.
My cello bow hand hold is virtually identical to that of my fiddle playing, but the upper arm moves about a lot more because the bow is being used lower down the body rather than up near the face as with the fiddle.
Again, tone production and the importance therof is DIFFERENT, (ie: not the same), in traditional styles. Not less important, not greater.
I usually change from a tilt away, to a full-on in my playing. For traditional styles, I usually play full on, in classical styles I usually have a tilt. The tone that I desire for each is different.
Your contrivance for civil discourse while slamming others is providing some entertainment. now, back to tmz...
ha
Jig, you say you are a fiddler, though you also play banjo, mandolin, whistle, pipes (is it GHB, I can't remember). But when you are in a session, you play back up. Am I right here? I'm just trying to get everything into context.
It all depends llig, whether which session, what I feel like on the day etc. some times I take the fiddle, recently I bought a new banjo so I have taken that out a couple of times. But when I play with folk that are way above my level as a tune player I play back up because we get a great responce, both from the musicians and the regulars and others.
As I have said all along I started out 25yrs ago backing, started picking up tunes a few yrs later on the mandolin and later banjo. then the fiddle about 15 yrs ago. I also play small pipes and other types of pipes.
It took me a long time to feel like i was getting anywhere with the fiddle, I still have a long way to go..
wyogal, If I made a comment like that I received from screetch to you, would you consider it civil.? Honestly now? I am not slamming, just responding to inaccurate statements. If screetch is not ill informed then what justification is there for such a statement? that ''The importance of tone in classical playing is not the same as the importance of tone in fiddling''
Its just a generalisation, its not true. everyone has different priorities .
Anyhow, back to the subject. Great post lazy, good to hear about the different approaches. I recall being told here recently that holding the bow slanted towards the bridge was 'wrong' always open to improvement I wondered whether that was right, and why.
Why being the operative word, why don't you slant your bow, is it because thats what you were taught?
I have to disagree though that such details are of no concern I am interested. If no one else is , fair enough , then there is no discussion. The very fact that people are discussing it means there is some interest for whatever reason.
You have a wealth of experiance, that I for one value highly. I have great respect for classical players. I have no interest in this petty arguments between the two camps and suchlike. I have a friend who teaches at one of the most prestigious academies in Europe. I respect him, and for some reason the feeling is mutual. I need to be able to stand up in front of him and do justice to this music I love. Times are changing folks , what 20 yrs ago would be seen as good fiddling now has to compete with you tube . Any thing that I might be able to use, any methods I can adopt that will help facilitate my chosen vocation I will whole heartedly adopt. Whither they come from.
There's plenty in that post I'd like to talk about, but lets start with, "Times are changing folks, what 20 yrs ago would be seen as good fiddling now has to compete with you tube"
I'll post this you tube link again just so's you don't have to scroll back to the top:
Heya jig, anyone can study with James. He offers online teaching, one on one. You hook up a web cam and take real-time lessons with him. A friend of mine is taking lessons from him this way and is very happy with the arrangement. Just because he lives in Florida doesn't mean someone in Montana or Co. Clare can't log on and benefit from some terrific teaching.
"when I play with folk that are way above my level as a tune player I play back up". I'm worried about this one. Does it mean simply that you are a much better back up player than tune player? I hope so, this would explain a lot. But you have been playing the fiddle for 25 years yes?
Dont you ever read anything llig? I have always said 15 yrs. clearly numerous times. I wonder sometimes.....you can hear me on my sound lantern , its not trad , Its a jam with a friend, the first time i heard his new song... well its not new anymore....
oh well..... we may not be on topic but at least its civil
Jig wrote in reply to my previous post, "why don't you slant your bow, is it because thats what you were taught?"
As a cellist I was indeed taught not to slant the bow, the reasons being that it gives a little bit more control (as I mentioned above) and enables more tone to be produced - something which is observable over the slanted bow method with careful listening. When I started the fiddle 7 years ago I experimented with both and there was no doubt in my mind that flat on the string suited me (or my style of playing) better. I also now tend to bow a bit closer to the bridge than to the fingerboard, so as to generate a bigger tone - not an insignificant aim when I'm sometimes the sole fiddler in an English session that may have 4 or 5 good boxes on full song! Having said that, I do change that bowing point of contact to suit prevailing circumstances.
I haven't done a proper survey of the 24 or so players in my string chamber orchestra, but I've the impression that it's about evenly divided between slanted/non-slanted for the upper strings, and the lower strings (violas and below) tend to play non-slanted.
See Simon Fischer, "Basics" for an informed discussion about
it and some exercises. Violinists vary the angle constantly, also
the distance from the bridge and angle to the strings and
a few other things
The bow and its slant.
The bow and its slant.
I am Curious about the pro's and con's of angeling the bow. The classical approach , if I am not mistaken,on the fiddle, is to slant the bow away from the Bridge. Same with the cello, but the difference is that with the Cello that put the force of gravity and the weight of the bow directly above the Hair.
Im also under the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that the classical hold of the Violin used to incline the fiddle up from the shoulder, so that when moving up in the positions Gravity was 'with' this shift. This hold would also mean that the weight of the stick is above the Hair.
Fiddlers on the other hand often slant the fiddle down so doesn't this mean there is little weight of the stick behind the Hair?
According to this logic, using the weight of the stick and gravity the bow would ideally be full on when the fiddle is held level, slanting towards the bridge when sloping down and slanting away from the bridge when sloping up from the shoulder.
When I was taught Cello this[ gravity and stick weight] was the rational behind the approach .... What is the rational behind the 'classical approach ' for the violin ? if there is such a thing[ which there isn't really eh?]
Any chance of a sensible discussion or will this also degenerate into petty bickering? I do hope not.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
For playing diddley music, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Anyone who playes the fiddle knows that.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Erm, bearing in mind your sensible question and request to avoid bickering, I would respectfully, but wholeheartedly, disagree with llig's statement. Bowing makes a huge difference, and is evident in many prolific players. A fine number of people firmly routed in the tradition, and widely acknowledged as key exponents on the fiddle, have taken influence from classical technique. Immediate example that springs to mind in Sean Keane. If you search for him on youtube you'll find clips of his playing.
What I think llig meant to say, and again I put this forward respectfully, is that there is no right or wrong way for using the bow in trad, and your choices are as valid as anyones. The music has a wide variety of different bowing techniques. If you find it on youtube, there was a very interesting clip of Julia Clifford playing on Come West Along the Road recently. Her bowing is fascinating as it almost doesn't correlate to the sound she generates from the instrument. Completely 'wrong' in classical terms of technique, but produced absolutely beautiful music.
Trad players don't tend to shift out of first position that much, some styles more than others, so there is one possible reason for the change in angle of the instrument. There will be elements of your classical technique you won't need for trad - bobby casey couldn't play Ysaye, but that didn't stop him from being one of the greatest musicians of his time.
Best of luck with your endeavors.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by daved
Re: The bow and its slant.
I applogise David, you are right. What I meant was, that there is no right or wrong way for holding the bow in trad, and your choices are as valid as anyones. Specifically, the slant of the bow on the strings is not important. Of course bowing in general matters, but to get hung up on a cosmetic detail like this instead of just playing tunes with what ever hold suits you is a waste of time and effort.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
This guy seems to tilt the bow away from the bridge, mostly. That's good enough for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pOtZkeJkLE
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by John Galt
Re: The bow and its slant.
And here's another one where the player slants the bow away from the bridge:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7w65438PCGM
And here's three fellas who play with the bow flat to the strings and leaning twards the bridge (one of my al time fave you tube clips):
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Well firstly, I am just curious.
With the cello, and double bass, the weight of the bow is ,perhaps, more important in attaining your sound than the fiddle? Which is why the bow is held at that a slant, obviously the angle is more obtuse[right word?] , if you play the fiddle in cello/arabian position the weight of the stick if the bow was slanted away from the bridgeit can a weak tone Perhaps a cellist /Dbl bass player might be able to shed more light on the matter?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Oh never mind. I really just wanted to let people know about a new YouTube clip worth checking out. I actually think that it's a non-issue too, for fiddling.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by John Galt
Re: The bow and its slant.
And I know absolutely nothing about Arabian cellists, so I have no comment on that either.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by John Galt
Re: The bow and its slant.
Im curious as to 'why' why do classical folk hold it like this, why do cellists etc, is it worth training the alternative grips? what are the benefits and cons....
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Why are you asking here, where it doesn't matter. Why don't you go and find a classical violin playing site?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Nice link Mickray, I love checking out all the wonderfull stuff available. thanks for that.
that fixed grin .....
llig did you really need to post that first link
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
We all play the same instrument. If you dont want to discuss it the solution is obvious.
. The subject is bow holds not why I wish to discuss bow holds or why I ask the questions . The different positions the violin/fiddle is held in interest me, on the knee, on the chest , upside down sat in the lotus position. Its really not up to you what discussions are posted is it? i really don't even want to discuss anything much with you unless you are prepared to be civil and keep to the subject in hand. You appear to follow me round trying to cause trouble. I am not interested.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Is the fact that the slant of the bow to the strings is not important in diddley music not relevant to this discussion?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
No. thats merely an opinion.
If you could say why, perhaps demonstrate the different approaches, the benefits of each possibility etc that would be much more relevant than an opinion stated as though it were a fact. Its not a fact. Maybe for you it doesnt matter but to extrapolate from that that for everyone playing trad it doesnt matter is ,well, ......need I say more?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
There are three you tube clips above that demonstrate it clearly
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Well, I'm not so sure that all three clips are equally useful. ;>}
But let's review:
Kevin Burke, a highly respected Irish fiddler, seems to favor tilting the bow away from the bridge, at least some of the time.
James Kelly, another highly respected Irish fiddler, seems to prefer keeping the bow hair flat on the strings.
Reasonable conclusion: Either way works, for Irish fiddling.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by John Galt
Re: The bow and its slant.
Demonstrates that all the options are available.... sorry is that your contribution? I know the options are there. it doesnt take a Phd to figure that out. My question is what are the benefits to the different choices . why do 'you' use the approach you have, why do classical musicians?, why dont you use the other choices? do you use all three approaches and all the positions in between? what effect does the weight of the bow have on the tone in the different choices. ? etc etc etc. a discussion.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Jig,
You asked about the double bass bow- I hold mine at a 90 degree angle from the strings; that is, I don't slant it towards nor away from the bridge (consciously, that is.) But I won't be shlepping my bass to any sessions.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: The bow and its slant.
Interesting, very interesting. What are your thoughts on the different positions? did you experiment with them ? were you taught a particular way? Is there a consensus amongst players. or controversy?
sorry lots of questions.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Jig, You are wasting your time considering it. Go and practice playing your fiddle with what ever slant you like, it doesn't make any difference. Go and practice something that does make a difference.
It's like asking a golfer what underwear helps his putting. It's just not relevant. Sure he wears underwear, but it's just not relevant
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Mic, I know either way works, and inbetween. Thats not an issue, Why do you play the way you play? have you experimented with the possibilities?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Thats it? you start talking about underwear? havent 'you' anything better to do? Of course it makes a difference , what are the quantifiable factors in this difference. All the fine details make a difference. Every little thing. As you say,; the devil is in the detail.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
I was taught to angle the bow. But it doesn't always work that way because of the way you have to move your wrist as you draw the bow up and down, so I find that the angle changes all the time. The real thing to shoot for is good contact with the string, a nice clean, smooth vibration. Well, maybe sometimes a scratchy vibration too, but you have to be able to get a good clean tone when you want it. Maybe I'll manage that in a few more years...
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy
Re: The bow and its slant.
Angle it which way? why did they teach you that? was it the way they were taught? Im just curious, we all do things for different reasons. Many of us dont even consider the reasons we do something. Im just raising a subject for conversation, why do we do what we do? Why do classically taught players do it in a certain way? is there consensus or controversy in the classical world, which ,like it or not, has had quite a major effect on the trad world. Why do trad fiddlers do it the way they do? was it classical lessons? unconscious? Why?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
I don't experiment with bow angles consciously, I just try for good tone. And fluid motion. And clean string crossings. And good rhythm. And crisp ornaments (a particularly hard thing, for me). And variety in bow speed, pressure, etc. in ways that I hope will do the tune justice. I listen to how it all sounds, and try to make it all work better.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by John Galt
Re: The bow and its slant.
Although I don't think my playing is nearly as good an example as Kevin Burke's or James Kelly's--not by several light-years--so it's kind of a moot point.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by John Galt
Re: The bow and its slant.
Angle it with the stick away from the bridge. I don't know the particular reason I was taught to do it that way. I find I get a better tone doing it like that, but there a lot more important things involved with tone, mostly involving the wrist. It's all very complex and i expect I'll be tweaking it forever.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by kennedy
Re: The bow and its slant.
It doesn't have a thing to do with the weight of the bow or how you tilt the fiddle. Classical players are taught to tilt the bow because it tends to give a cleaner tone than having all the hairs on the string.
The importance of tone in classical playing is not the same as the importance of tone in fiddling. A classical player will avoid the scratchy, harsh sound that having all the hairs on the string can promote, while a fiddler might desire that sound.
And jig, it's very obvious that you are just starting discussions that you think will be controversial (classical vs. trad) in the hopes of picking fights. I don't know why you keep doing this but it's getting old.
And please don't pretend that you're just trying to have a friendly discussion; I know that you are circling like a vulture waiting for an opportunity to stir some sh*t. And I also know that you aren't going to accept any answer at all, you'll just keep on posting over and over until either someone loses patience and gives you the fight that you're looking for, or people just stop posting and ignore you.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Marklar
Re: The bow and its slant.
As an attention-seeking device, it's working pretty effectively though, don't you think?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: The bow and its slant.
Obvious? You are completely mistaken. Completely. Wrong, I dont know why you wish to suggest such a thing. If you wish to become abusive and unpleasant when you have been politely asked to refrain from such behavior perhaps you might find another discussion or board? We are having a friendly discussion if you dont wish to be involved leave. if you do, please try to remain civil. If you read the discussion I ask about the angle, tilting too and away from the bridge. specifically pertaining to bow weight and angle of elevation of the fiddle. Would you change the angle of the bow if you were to change the angle of the fiddle?
of
You say the tone is not of the same importance for trad fiddling, but that is an opinion, not a fact. Trad fiddling is an intensely personal thing, my views, clearly, are different from yours. Tone is of the utmost importance to me. I am a trad fiddler. How can you make such a generalization? it is at best ill informed . We all have a right to play as we choose. to search and aspire to our own particular aims, A Blanket statement like that does no justice to our art.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Exactly as predicted. You claim to want a civil discussion but I'm "ill informed" and should find another discussion board. Is it abusive to point out the pattern that you have been demonstrating over and over on this board?
Anyway, I'm not taking the bait any more than I already have, I'm done posting on this thread.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Marklar
Re: The bow and its slant.
Tone is not of the same importance, not that it is not important...
such a contrived thread.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: The bow and its slant.
Hang on, to me tone is of the utmost importance. So your point is clearly wrong. There is room for all.
Screetch you said I was a vulture waitng to stir sh*t . That is insulting and mistaken. I simply said if you wished to talk to anyone like that , then this discussion is not the place. There was a polite request at the begining to refrain from bickering. Jeremy asks us to remain civil. Is that comment in any way civil? I really did hope that we could avoid this.
The discussion is about the angle of the bow, why we do what we do. Is that not a simple enough remit? either you have something to contribute or not. If you do , please keep it on track. digressions into meta discussions on the motive of the posters are irrelevant and unwelcome.
I play with my bow angled towards the bridge, as I was taught, however I have never experimented with other possibilities. Perhaps it would be a good move.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
It doesn't really matter - we're discussing the arrangement of the deck-chairs
. There are these different schools of thought - hairs flat on the string, angled away from the bridge, and even angled towards the bridge. As far as folk music is concerned I don't think it makes a scrap of difference, although some classical players will swear by the bow being angled away from the bridge, and others will say that that is the way of the devil. It depends on how you've been taught, hopefully by someone who teaches good tone production and control, because the end results are much the same. In fairness to the classical camp. though, there is the argument that tilting the bow enables subtle changes in tone colour - perhaps required by a composer - but even a flat-on-the-string player can always make that angle adjustment if needed. Such details are unlikely to be of much concern to us here.
As a cellist I usually have the hairs flat on the string, although my desk partner in the orchestra habitually angles his away from the bridge. For the cellist, having the hairs flat on the string has a lot to do with controlling the vibration of those comparatively heavy, high tension strings.
As a fiddle player I also have the hairs flat on the string, and this is largely, I think, a consequence of my bow hold. I don't hold the bow the with the tips of the fingers, but with the stick lying between the first and second joints (counting from the tips) of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers. The distal portions of those fingers are relaxed and don't do anything - I just make sure they don't touch the bow hairs. The back of the bow hand is flat and in alignment with the back of the forearm - the wrist isn't lifted. The 4th finger (pinky) is curved and rests lightly on the end of the frog, ready to apply balancing pressure when bowing down near the frog. Going further up the arm, the upper arm hangs relaxed in a more or less vertical configuration from the shoulder, and close to the body most of the time.. The hanging weight of the arm therefore helps to apply pressure to the bow as required. This is quite unlike the style where the arm tends to be held high with a curved wrist, and in which the shoulder muscles would, I imagine, therefore have to work harder.
My cello bow hand hold is virtually identical to that of my fiddle playing, but the upper arm moves about a lot more because the bow is being used lower down the body rather than up near the face as with the fiddle.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The bow and its slant.
Again, tone production and the importance therof is DIFFERENT, (ie: not the same), in traditional styles. Not less important, not greater.
I usually change from a tilt away, to a full-on in my playing. For traditional styles, I usually play full on, in classical styles I usually have a tilt. The tone that I desire for each is different.
Your contrivance for civil discourse while slamming others is providing some entertainment. now, back to tmz...
ha
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: The bow and its slant.
Jig, you say you are a fiddler, though you also play banjo, mandolin, whistle, pipes (is it GHB, I can't remember). But when you are in a session, you play back up. Am I right here? I'm just trying to get everything into context.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
It all depends llig, whether which session, what I feel like on the day etc. some times I take the fiddle, recently I bought a new banjo so I have taken that out a couple of times. But when I play with folk that are way above my level as a tune player I play back up because we get a great responce, both from the musicians and the regulars and others.
As I have said all along I started out 25yrs ago backing, started picking up tunes a few yrs later on the mandolin and later banjo. then the fiddle about 15 yrs ago. I also play small pipes and other types of pipes.
It took me a long time to feel like i was getting anywhere with the fiddle, I still have a long way to go..
wyogal, If I made a comment like that I received from screetch to you, would you consider it civil.? Honestly now? I am not slamming, just responding to inaccurate statements. If screetch is not ill informed then what justification is there for such a statement? that ''The importance of tone in classical playing is not the same as the importance of tone in fiddling''
Its just a generalisation, its not true. everyone has different priorities .
Anyhow, back to the subject. Great post lazy, good to hear about the different approaches. I recall being told here recently that holding the bow slanted towards the bridge was 'wrong' always open to improvement I wondered whether that was right, and why.
Why being the operative word, why don't you slant your bow, is it because thats what you were taught?
I have to disagree though that such details are of no concern I am interested. If no one else is , fair enough , then there is no discussion. The very fact that people are discussing it means there is some interest for whatever reason.
You have a wealth of experiance, that I for one value highly. I have great respect for classical players. I have no interest in this petty arguments between the two camps and suchlike. I have a friend who teaches at one of the most prestigious academies in Europe. I respect him, and for some reason the feeling is mutual. I need to be able to stand up in front of him and do justice to this music I love. Times are changing folks , what 20 yrs ago would be seen as good fiddling now has to compete with you tube . Any thing that I might be able to use, any methods I can adopt that will help facilitate my chosen vocation I will whole heartedly adopt. Whither they come from.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
There's plenty in that post I'd like to talk about, but lets start with, "Times are changing folks, what 20 yrs ago would be seen as good fiddling now has to compete with you tube"
I'll post this you tube link again just so's you don't have to scroll back to the top:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18105
1977
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Huh? circular link.....
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
hah, that's a funny mistake that. plenty of irony in there.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Great link james lives in the states ?I think, blest are ye that can study with him. John lives in Clare still, a fine fiddler and a gentleman.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Heya jig, anyone can study with James. He offers online teaching, one on one. You hook up a web cam and take real-time lessons with him. A friend of mine is taking lessons from him this way and is very happy with the arrangement. Just because he lives in Florida doesn't mean someone in Montana or Co. Clare can't log on and benefit from some terrific teaching.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The bow and its slant.
Here's his home page, with a link to his lessons.
http://www.jameskellymusic.com/
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The bow and its slant.
"when I play with folk that are way above my level as a tune player I play back up". I'm worried about this one. Does it mean simply that you are a much better back up player than tune player? I hope so, this would explain a lot. But you have been playing the fiddle for 25 years yes?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
"''The importance of tone in classical playing is not the same as the importance of tone in fiddling''
Its just a generalisation, its not true."
Er ... yes, it is true. It's self-evidently true. Actually, it's a truism.
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: The bow and its slant.
Dont you ever read anything llig? I have always said 15 yrs. clearly numerous times. I wonder sometimes.....you can hear me on my sound lantern , its not trad , Its a jam with a friend, the first time i heard his new song... well its not new anymore....
oh well..... we may not be on topic but at least its civil
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Ah, jig, your friend's song reminded me instantly of this:
back atchya
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZEEgIti8sM
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: The bow and its slant.
So are you much better back up player than tune player?
# Posted on June 16th 2008 by ...
Re: The bow and its slant.
Jig wrote in reply to my previous post, "why don't you slant your bow, is it because thats what you were taught?"
As a cellist I was indeed taught not to slant the bow, the reasons being that it gives a little bit more control (as I mentioned above) and enables more tone to be produced - something which is observable over the slanted bow method with careful listening. When I started the fiddle 7 years ago I experimented with both and there was no doubt in my mind that flat on the string suited me (or my style of playing) better. I also now tend to bow a bit closer to the bridge than to the fingerboard, so as to generate a bigger tone - not an insignificant aim when I'm sometimes the sole fiddler in an English session that may have 4 or 5 good boxes on full song! Having said that, I do change that bowing point of contact to suit prevailing circumstances.
I haven't done a proper survey of the 24 or so players in my string chamber orchestra, but I've the impression that it's about evenly divided between slanted/non-slanted for the upper strings, and the lower strings (violas and below) tend to play non-slanted.
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The bow and its slant.
See Simon Fischer, "Basics" for an informed discussion about
it and some exercises. Violinists vary the angle constantly, also
the distance from the bridge and angle to the strings and
a few other things
# Posted on June 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: The bow and its slant.
Thats interesting lazy .I will try it. Like I say I just did what I was shown .
yes llig, Ive been backing trad 25yrs, Living in Clare the level is so high,, that I back, I know It works, both from the audience and the musicians.
Will, when you have lost friends through suicide it is not a laughing matter. It is a tragedy. May god bless their souls.
# Posted on June 18th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: The bow and its slant.
Thanks Hup.
# Posted on June 18th 2008 by piobagusfidil