Hi there - here's an observation on my own situation, that I'd like to hear some feed back on. I know this will probably seem like a no-brainer to lots of folks, but anyway
for all the tunes I've learned, the ones I play best, I feel, are the ones I never *learned*. Does that make sense?
By not learning, I mean just picking up by osmosis - little conscious effort or major effort - just hearing the tune and playing what I hear in my head.
However this seems to take me a bit of time - I'm not talking a few hours - often what goes in can take a fair bit of time to come out!! ;-p
When I do *learn* tunes this way - I feel totally uninhibited about how I play them. By this I mean that I feel liberated from playing the tunes exactly the same way as I've heard them. I feel free to do all sorts of things with the melody as I've never *learned* one way to do it. I'm not saying that I'm transformed into John Carty for the duration of the tune... but I do stuff with it that I don't do with other more formally learned tunes. Which to me is the essence of this music.
I guess then the issue that I'd like to get some feedback or guidance on is, how do I speed the process up a little? If I keep going the way I am I might know 4 or 5 tunes by the time I'm an old man...
I can already guess one piece of advice that will came along - "listen, listen, listen". Which is absolutely true - and one that is probably the best of all. However I'm sure there are some other little gems out there that you might like to sharre.
What is needed I think is a Gordon Ramsay School of Learning ITM by Ear on a www.hellssession.org or something like that.
I can just hear the teaching methods!
Maybe you have already touched on one of the solutions - listen to as many versions of a tune as possible. Maybe what remains in common is the essence of the tune for you to interpret as you wish whilst remaining true to the source.
I have always thought that just one version/setting of a tune from one person is not an easy way to learn a tune, even though it is probably quite the traditional way to some extent.
There still needs to be a structure to learn by ear, imo, if it is not going to take years and years without variable results for one person and across a range of people.
I think that not to try to rush it is the answer. The whole idea of getting tunes this way is that you aren't really learning them anyway. So it's quite a feeling to just say outright that you have and never will learn them. There is no need for any structure. Structure would contradict the ethos of it.
You may think you have a tune nailed, and be playing it confidently, even starting it, for years, but because you are listening listening listening, when you hear something new in it, either generated by yourself or others, you are open to it and will adapt.
One thing that does happen, is that suddenly, having had maybe a couple of dozen tunes gained in this way, one day you'll wake up and have several hundred. It's a great feeling, several hundred tunes with zero effort.
Trying not to rush it I would think is a very big part of the equation, but as a beginner, sitting in on a session at advanced speed to different tunes one after another, and trying to learn by ear like that is going to take a very long time, and dishearten, or worse than that, many people.
It would be the same learning from a CD. It is way too fast for a beginner to pick up quickly, but at least you can loop the track, unlike a session.
Some people can probably pick it up like that very quickly, maybe they have a talent for that, or, more likely, they have some musical experience before.
Age could also well be a factor in the learning experience.
In my observation, most people want structure in whatever they learn. In terms of ITM, the most apparent structure on offer, usually, is the visual one i.e. dots and/or notation, so people go for that, rather than learning by ear.
It is a pity that so many people have to reinvent the wheel, it seems to me, when learning ITM.
When I find a tune I can play but never learned, I find out the name and consult a recording as soon as I can. That way, I just need to listen to it [and play through it a few times] and etch the tune into my head and there it is, solidly in my repertoire. It's happening more often now too which is great
I've only been playing fiddle for a lil over 3 months but have came on leaps & bounds simply by firstly learning to play the tunes that I know & have spent years listening to, the first tunes I learned were 100 pipers (I deemed this due to parental syndrome) and The Sheiling in the braes of rannoch. Currently learning Da Smugglers & Da Foula reel & chivving myself up to giving Athol Highlanders a go.
BC, I really enjoyed what you said about "osmosis" and the idea of learning through being in amongst the music. I don't know if there's a phrase for that sense of being so sure about the music that you're happy to improvise (but I bet there's a Welsh word for it as they have such words for most things!). I have seen similar in adult groups, where people will make giveaway gestures or use particular words almost unconsciously, that suggest the learning has gone in very deep.
I also wonder if somehow the tunes you really love have resonated in some way with you - not in the physics sense, of course, but that bits of them have captured your imagination almost as if they were already in your head and waiting to be unlocked? Anyway, what you describe seems to get to the heart of what an aural tradition is about.
I don't know how you do "more" of that - although I think that as you've put your finger on the conditions in which learn best in this deep way, I guess you just do more of what you did. If you could ever bottle that and sell it, you'd make a fortune!
Water is what travels during osmosis. If the water represents the music entering the memory then to increase the gradient you'd have to either remove the water from the inside, ie forget the music that's already been learnt or make sure you listen to only The Music, ie bathe in distilled water, perhaps that's why it's called the 'Pure Drop'.
Lurcherjohn. Thanks, I was reluctant to use 'immersion' for fear of mixing the analogies but you found a way. And some folks round here do say they know too many tunes.
Here's what I do- I listen carefully to the tune I am trying to learn, over and over, then sing it over and over, long before I try it on the flute. That way, I can sing it in the car, walking the dog, shaving, etc, etc.
BC, one other point - thinking about it, what you describe sounds like the way people pick up spoken language. You hear little bits and then almost without realising it, join them together and start to express yourself. We don't as a rule learn spoken language by "being taught" it or consciously learning it by rote. So maybe there's a clue about why your experience with those tunes you've picked up, is so different, and why it feels as if you can put more of your own expression into them. I was reminded of this thinking of my 3-year old son, who is picking up little bits of musical phrases and sometimes continuing with his own version of the tune, or sometimes with the "real" version. Why hurry that process? What you're describing is to me, something about learning music "in depth" rather than simply about knowing a number of tunes.
- For about 8 years but I've been playing trad music seriously for 3 to 4 years.
Were you able to learn tunes quickly like that when you began?
- Not at the very beginning but after a few months [when I was playing seriously] I was able to get a good idea of the 'shape' of a tune and work out where the tune roughly went. When I started learning by ear, I could pick up more shapes and patterns and now these come instantly if the tune isn't too demanding. Not all the time though, I can have a good night or a bad one.
Did you have previous musical training?
- No, I played a small bit of guitar for a while but have never had formal training in anything but trad music and, even in trad music, I did one year of classes in Comhaltas, then later took 4 classes with Kieran Hanrahan, and have been on my own otherwise [well, I say on my own, but I mean without classes. You don't need a teacher to necessarily learn things.]
I agree with what Greg says above: singing the tunes to myself really does seem to help. Once I can sing a tune (and I don't mean kinda hum it, but get every pitch), it's a very short jump to being able to actually play it on the flute. It's great - singing throughout the day is almost like having extra practice time. I can work on the parts I'm fuzzy on, and try out different set transitions. The only downside is the strange looks I get from people I pass in the street...
Go to http://comhaltas.ie/ and punch in some tune names in the search bar. They've got recordings of lots of session tunes, though most of them have a harpist plucking seemingly random notes in the background, but I guess it's bearable. Listening to them at home is a more osmosis-like way to absorb tunes than reading dots or listening to midis.
listen, listen, listen
listen, listen, listen
Hi there - here's an observation on my own situation, that I'd like to hear some feed back on. I know this will probably seem like a no-brainer to lots of folks, but anyway
for all the tunes I've learned, the ones I play best, I feel, are the ones I never *learned*. Does that make sense?
By not learning, I mean just picking up by osmosis - little conscious effort or major effort - just hearing the tune and playing what I hear in my head.
However this seems to take me a bit of time - I'm not talking a few hours - often what goes in can take a fair bit of time to come out!! ;-p
When I do *learn* tunes this way - I feel totally uninhibited about how I play them. By this I mean that I feel liberated from playing the tunes exactly the same way as I've heard them. I feel free to do all sorts of things with the melody as I've never *learned* one way to do it. I'm not saying that I'm transformed into John Carty for the duration of the tune... but I do stuff with it that I don't do with other more formally learned tunes. Which to me is the essence of this music.
I guess then the issue that I'd like to get some feedback or guidance on is, how do I speed the process up a little? If I keep going the way I am I might know 4 or 5 tunes by the time I'm an old man...
I can already guess one piece of advice that will came along - "listen, listen, listen". Which is absolutely true - and one that is probably the best of all. However I'm sure there are some other little gems out there that you might like to sharre.
Thanks.
BC
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: listen, listen, listen
What is needed I think is a Gordon Ramsay School of Learning ITM by Ear on a www.hellssession.org or something like that.
I can just hear the teaching methods!
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: listen, listen, listen
Maybe you have already touched on one of the solutions - listen to as many versions of a tune as possible. Maybe what remains in common is the essence of the tune for you to interpret as you wish whilst remaining true to the source.
I have always thought that just one version/setting of a tune from one person is not an easy way to learn a tune, even though it is probably quite the traditional way to some extent.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Donough
Re: listen, listen, listen
I've learned dozens of scraps of tunes from my local session,
but not a whole tune. Probably I haven't been at it long enough ...
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Hup
Re: listen, listen, listen
There still needs to be a structure to learn by ear, imo, if it is not going to take years and years without variable results for one person and across a range of people.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: listen, listen, listen
I think that not to try to rush it is the answer. The whole idea of getting tunes this way is that you aren't really learning them anyway. So it's quite a feeling to just say outright that you have and never will learn them. There is no need for any structure. Structure would contradict the ethos of it.
You may think you have a tune nailed, and be playing it confidently, even starting it, for years, but because you are listening listening listening, when you hear something new in it, either generated by yourself or others, you are open to it and will adapt.
One thing that does happen, is that suddenly, having had maybe a couple of dozen tunes gained in this way, one day you'll wake up and have several hundred. It's a great feeling, several hundred tunes with zero effort.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by ...
Re: listen, listen, listen
Trying not to rush it I would think is a very big part of the equation, but as a beginner, sitting in on a session at advanced speed to different tunes one after another, and trying to learn by ear like that is going to take a very long time, and dishearten, or worse than that, many people.
It would be the same learning from a CD. It is way too fast for a beginner to pick up quickly, but at least you can loop the track, unlike a session.
Some people can probably pick it up like that very quickly, maybe they have a talent for that, or, more likely, they have some musical experience before.
Age could also well be a factor in the learning experience.
In my observation, most people want structure in whatever they learn. In terms of ITM, the most apparent structure on offer, usually, is the visual one i.e. dots and/or notation, so people go for that, rather than learning by ear.
It is a pity that so many people have to reinvent the wheel, it seems to me, when learning ITM.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: listen, listen, listen
When I find a tune I can play but never learned, I find out the name and consult a recording as soon as I can. That way, I just need to listen to it [and play through it a few times] and etch the tune into my head and there it is, solidly in my repertoire. It's happening more often now too which is great
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by 52Paddy
Re: listen, listen, listen
How long have you been playing paddyc?
Were you able to learn tunes quickly like that when you began?
Did you have previous musical training?
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: listen, listen, listen
I find this to be very true.
I've only been playing fiddle for a lil over 3 months but have came on leaps & bounds simply by firstly learning to play the tunes that I know & have spent years listening to, the first tunes I learned were 100 pipers (I deemed this due to parental syndrome) and The Sheiling in the braes of rannoch. Currently learning Da Smugglers & Da Foula reel & chivving myself up to giving Athol Highlanders a go.
As for age.. I'm about to hit 40
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Wabbit
Re: listen, listen, listen
BC, I really enjoyed what you said about "osmosis" and the idea of learning through being in amongst the music. I don't know if there's a phrase for that sense of being so sure about the music that you're happy to improvise (but I bet there's a Welsh word for it as they have such words for most things!). I have seen similar in adult groups, where people will make giveaway gestures or use particular words almost unconsciously, that suggest the learning has gone in very deep.
I also wonder if somehow the tunes you really love have resonated in some way with you - not in the physics sense, of course, but that bits of them have captured your imagination almost as if they were already in your head and waiting to be unlocked? Anyway, what you describe seems to get to the heart of what an aural tradition is about.
I don't know how you do "more" of that - although I think that as you've put your finger on the conditions in which learn best in this deep way, I guess you just do more of what you did. If you could ever bottle that and sell it, you'd make a fortune!
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: listen, listen, listen
your can't bottle dedication and love
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by ...
Re: listen, listen, listen
But you can speed up osmosis by increasing the concentration gradient.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by David50
Re: listen, listen, listen
Water is what travels during osmosis. If the water represents the music entering the memory then to increase the gradient you'd have to either remove the water from the inside, ie forget the music that's already been learnt or make sure you listen to only The Music, ie bathe in distilled water, perhaps that's why it's called the 'Pure Drop'.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Lurcherjohn
Re: listen, listen, listen
Time for the Tom Anderson quotation (again)
"You should never learn a tune you don't know."
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: listen, listen, listen
Lurcherjohn. Thanks, I was reluctant to use 'immersion' for fear of mixing the analogies but you found a way. And some folks round here do say they know too many tunes.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by David50
Re: listen, listen, listen
Here's what I do- I listen carefully to the tune I am trying to learn, over and over, then sing it over and over, long before I try it on the flute. That way, I can sing it in the car, walking the dog, shaving, etc, etc.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: listen, listen, listen
BC, one other point - thinking about it, what you describe sounds like the way people pick up spoken language. You hear little bits and then almost without realising it, join them together and start to express yourself. We don't as a rule learn spoken language by "being taught" it or consciously learning it by rote. So maybe there's a clue about why your experience with those tunes you've picked up, is so different, and why it feels as if you can put more of your own expression into them. I was reminded of this thinking of my 3-year old son, who is picking up little bits of musical phrases and sometimes continuing with his own version of the tune, or sometimes with the "real" version. Why hurry that process? What you're describing is to me, something about learning music "in depth" rather than simply about knowing a number of tunes.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: listen, listen, listen
That's a very important distinction. I think Will CPT called it 'assimilate' at one point.
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: listen, listen, listen
Duijera Dubh:
"How long have you been playing paddyc?"
- For about 8 years but I've been playing trad music seriously for 3 to 4 years.
Were you able to learn tunes quickly like that when you began?
- Not at the very beginning but after a few months [when I was playing seriously] I was able to get a good idea of the 'shape' of a tune and work out where the tune roughly went. When I started learning by ear, I could pick up more shapes and patterns and now these come instantly if the tune isn't too demanding. Not all the time though, I can have a good night or a bad one.
Did you have previous musical training?
- No, I played a small bit of guitar for a while but have never had formal training in anything but trad music and, even in trad music, I did one year of classes in Comhaltas, then later took 4 classes with Kieran Hanrahan, and have been on my own otherwise [well, I say on my own, but I mean without classes. You don't need a teacher to necessarily learn things.]
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by 52Paddy
Re: listen, listen, listen
I agree with what Greg says above: singing the tunes to myself really does seem to help. Once I can sing a tune (and I don't mean kinda hum it, but get every pitch), it's a very short jump to being able to actually play it on the flute. It's great - singing throughout the day is almost like having extra practice time. I can work on the parts I'm fuzzy on, and try out different set transitions. The only downside is the strange looks I get from people I pass in the street...
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by fuzzygreen
Re: listen, listen, listen
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4713/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9184/
# Posted on June 5th 2008 by ...
Re: listen, listen, listen
Go to http://comhaltas.ie/ and punch in some tune names in the search bar. They've got recordings of lots of session tunes, though most of them have a harpist plucking seemingly random notes in the background, but I guess it's bearable. Listening to them at home is a more osmosis-like way to absorb tunes than reading dots or listening to midis.
# Posted on June 6th 2008 by Whiddler